Guild Wars 2

Every swamp has it’s secrets and every good one knows how to keep them. The best are peat bogs. Once fertile, now fouled, these morasses are the archetypal lying landmass – concealing countless crimes against nature. Wychmire Swamp is one such bog. Nestled in north-western Caledon Forest, this slough secures not only it’s own secrets, but those of many others, including the indiscretions of a gargantuan Maguuman Great Jungle Wurm.

The wurm’s origins are shrouded in mystery. Where did it come from? Presumably, Maguuman Jungle Wurms migrated east from a region west of Magus Falls. Regardless, there is little doubt about why it has made the mire home: Husks. (This appears to be the only (accessible) part of continental Tyria to which the latter are native.) And it is the mature Maguuman Jungle Wurms’ predilection for husks that has fueled speculation associating them with the Elder Dragon Mordremoth.

Scholars have long suspected a link between husks and Mordremoth. Popular conjecture muses that the husks may be the Elder Dragon’s minion’s – whether corrupted or created; by extension, the Great Jungle Wurms of Tyria are considered (potential) minions because husks appear to cooperate with them. Whilst it is not my intention to discuss the evidence propelling these suspicions, I do wish to explore the relationship between Great Jungle Wurms and husks.

Where Do Husks Come From?

From The Belly Of The Beast
I have entertained the theory that husks come from Maguuman Jungle Wurms. Husks may begin their lives as decaying plant matter, taking form and sentience in the bowels of a wurm, before being regurgitated. If this is the case, it would explain the origins not only of the husks of the Bloodtide Coast, but also of Wychmire Swamp. The only problem with this theory is the marked difference between husks from each wurm. The husks of the swamp show none of the evidences of partial digestion that we observe in those from the coast, such as yellow-coloured parasitic infestation.

From The Nightmare
Those who have read some of my former posts may recall that I have also entertained the theory that husks come from the Nightmare. Wychmire husks are described as “Summoned” after all, in like manner to sylvari, who are “summoned by the Dream”. That some of them are blighted is, in my opinion, evidence not so much of Elder Dragonic corruption (I am not suggesting that they are not corrupted, of course), more so of the state of the plant matter out of which they are formed. Thus, husks formed from the decaying plant material of fens are more likely to be blighted; husks formed from plant material rich in flammable solvents and stored under pressure and/or exposed to heat are more likely to be flame-touched; husks formed from plant material laced with pollen are more likely to be torrential and so on and so forth.

From A Plant
I think that most would agree that irrespective of the opinions I have already presented, husks come from a plant or plants. Consider, for example, the prevalence of toxic and flame-touched husks in the Tower Of Nightmares – it is possible that these husks were regurgitated by the toxic wurms dwelling in the structure. However, I propose that the fate of the Tower is strongly suggestive of the origins of (at least) the flame-touched husks therein. The toxic plant encased within the Tower exploded; it was rich in flammable solvents (which also contributed to the flammable gases it produced). In my opinion, the flame-touched husks encountered within the Tower were created from it (although they may not have been created by it).

Further research is required to arrive at any definite conclusions, even if the origins of the humble husk seem clearer now than ever before.

It is here, having proposed these few ideas about the origins of husks – the sustenance of mature Maguuman Jungle Wurms – that this installment of Fertile Soils: Maguuman Jungle Wurms must enter a brief diapause. Follow us in the next release as we continue to delve into the mysterious relationship between wurms and husks set in Wychmire Swamp.

In Sparkfly Fen, there is an event in which we see Nightmare Courtiers making husks out of three sylvari sacrifices, if I remember correctly.

So it would seem that husks are just that: husks made out of plant matter.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In Sparkfly Fen, there is an event in which we see Nightmare Courtiers making husks out of three sylvari sacrifices, if I remember correctly.

So it would seem that husks are just that: husks made out of plant matter.

Wow, why is this not more common knowledge? The husks and hounds are linked to Mordremoth, but up until now we had nothing linking Mordremoth and the Nightmare Court. If the NC are responsible for creating the husks, then that’s something that directly relates them and Mordremoth.

It was brought to my attention that I was misremembering the event chain.

What I thought was the case was NC capturing 3 sylvari and sacrificing them to spawn a husk which is then traded to the Inquest.

What happens is that the Inquest traded the 3 captured sylvari for the husk after which (2 hours later real time) they are sacrificed in some unanimated ritual with proclamations of such being done to “strengthen the spawn.” After a bit, the event chain resets – husk given to Inquest for three sylvari. Etc. Only enemies in the area are Courtiers, Nightmare Hounds, and the traded husk.

Also, Tamias, we have no solid proof that hounds (which come from the Pale Tree) and husks are tied to Mordremoth – at least as far as their origin is concerned. Best we have is their presence in Experimental Lab Green but it could be that they brought them there (traded for with NC) to expose to Mordremoth’s corruption.

The fact that nightmare husks and nightmare hounds are present in Experimental Lab Green is solid proof that they’re linked to Mordremoth, without describing the nature of the link or how tenuous it may or not be. It’s not solid proof that they’re Mordremoth’s minions. In my view it suggests that, but you may disagree. Sorry to be pedantic, I’m just looking to avoid a palaver like that mursaat thread.

I think it’s perfectly possible that the nightmare husks were given to the Inquest by the Nightmare Court, since as you say that’s something we’ve seen happen before. But from what you’ve said, it seems we don’t know why that husk was handed over to the Inquest, so the explanation that the Inquest wanted to expose it to dragon corruption seems a little far-fetched.

To me, a simpler explanation for the presence of the nightmare husks in Experimental Lab Green would be simply that the husks are in some way already related to Mordremoth. The boss of Experimental Lab Green is the Evolved Husk, which begs a comparison with the bosses of Experimental Labs White and Red, the Evolved Destroyer and Bjarl the Rampager—both of whom are, unambiguously, dragon minions. Why would the nightmare husk be any different?

If this wasn’t compelling enough, we also have that the only creatures other than nightmare vines that appear during the Battle for Wychmire Swamp are summoned husks. The Battle for Wychmire Swamp, of course, is accepted as one of the strongest contenders for pre-awakening Mordremoth activity. Gamarien, whose Wyld Hunt calls him there, fears that “an even darker force [than the Nightmare Court] is at work” there, and worries that the summoned husks are harbingers of that greater foe.

The final point on whether or not the summoned husks are minions of the Elder Jungle Dragon depends on whether or not you believe that the Shadow of the Dragon, within the sylvari Dream, is a minion of Mordremoth. The Shadow of the Dragon is surrounded by nightmare hounds, and contains the same orange “glow” as the husks. So there’s an indication that the Shadow of the Dragon is linked to them as well.

Oh, and the nightmare hounds being born of the Pale Tree isn’t evidence enough to state categorically that they are not related to Mordremoth. They appear nearly everywhere that the husks do, and not always with the presence of the Nightmare Court. I’m not sure of their relationship with the Dream, but I do know that they are physically corrupted by nightmare.

Firstly, I am well aware of all the evidence for your theorycrafting, seeing how I was amongst the first to make the correlation between Wychmire Swamp and Mordremoth – and then some. Please do not insult me. If it was not intended to be insulting, it certainly read as such to me.

Secondly, as I tried to imply, those Nightmare Hounds and Summoned Husks may be tied to Mordremoth, but if so it could just as easily be because the Inquest made them tied to Mordremoth. To claim that their existence in Experimental Green Lab proves that Mordremoth makes either is like claiming that Bjarl the Rampager, and all the other icebrood and risen were always (read: created as and never anything else) icebrood or risen. I doubt you’d claim that, , because doing so would be just silly as we know full well that those are corrupted beings, so why claim that the husks come from Mordremoth?

We see two kinds of minions in the most general sense amongst all dragons: those that were made from non-living materials (e.g., rock, fire, ice, lightning), and those that were made out of living or deceased materials.

The sad fact of the matter is that we have absolutely ZERO confirmed cases of Mordremoth minions. We do not know what they are made of or what they look like. We, in fact, actually have zero proof that Mordremoth’s minions will even be plants! The attack named after him is soil and rock, not plant, so it could be that Mordremoth will end up being a bunch of rock minions – likely? No, not really. The name “Jungle Dragon” comes form its location though and we really don’t have any solid evidence of his corruption – not even Wychmire Swamp is solid evidence (that darker force can be any number of things – Elder Dragons aren’t the only ones whom are dark and ancient forces). Again, the closest we have is Crucible of Eternity, but also again – how much corruption is there in those minions? Is that how Mordremoth’s minions will look like when fully corrupted? What they’d be called? Keep in mind not all corruption takes immediate physical change (Icebrood), nor do all those with draconic influence look at all like a dragon minion when the like-dragon minions change instantly. And for name, ArenaNet would easily keep such secret to make it more surprising (it’s more likely to be Blighted than Nightmare or Summoned, or heck, it may even be “Planted” or “Sprouted” or even “Mordy”). We simply do not know. And as such, we cannot make claims to such – even if it is “a simpler explanation” or most likely or most obvious or whatever you wish to call it (ArenaNet are seldom simple in their lore, either way).

But of what we see with four cases, all dragon minions are created from something, never born (unlike sylvari), and in three cases they come from living and/or dead animals. Mordremoth is likely the same as those three cases but with plants. So that means that in order to create dragon minions, it must obtain already living, or dead, plant-life – or it’ll be making plant matter from non-plants (which, again, does not fit with the hounds or sylvari’ birth).

So again, even if those in Crucible of Eternity are tied to Mordremoth, nothing says that they originate from Mordremoth. As in, their point of origins is Mordremoth, which is what you presented as fact (it is, rather, simply the most obvious outcome in your perspective). And this is what I was saying.

TL;DR Husks and Hounds in CoE are tied to Mordremoth, those outside have no proof of such.

On an aside, no, hounds always appear with Nightmare Courtiers nearby (exception being the Crucible of Eternity, but that does not prove any unique origin away from the Court, given that we see Inquest and Nightmare Courtiers doing trades). Crucible of Eternity is the only place we see Nightmare Hounds without Nightmare Courtiers – not even at Wychmire Swamp.

The physical corruption of the hounds is actually the single strongest argument for the Nightmare to be tied to dragon corruption. The second strongest being the change in mentality to sylvari.

I…suggest you reread my post a little more carefully, Konig. You’re defeating a different argument to the one that I was making, there. I took pains not to claim anywhere that Mordremoth “made” the nightmare husks or hounds. Nightmare hounds, as we know, are nightmare-corrupted sylvan hounds (and are also called thorn wolves, overwhelmingly likely to be unrelated but still interesting to note), and I offered no explanation as to how husks are constructed, be it from “scratch” or as corrupted versions of existing creatures. I don’t think I even mentioned sylvari. All I was saying that because all the other minions in those labs are dragon minions, to me it seems likely that the husks and hounds are as well. That’s all. I said nothing about how they came to be dragon minions (although the Inquest explanation seems unlikely given these creatures’ activities elsewhere).

As an aside, I think you’re looking at the “different kind of minions” thing the wrong way. Destroyers, according to Edge of Destiny, are “forged in the molten heart of [Primordus]”. This is supported by some Guru posts which I’ll link: 1 2 3 4 but we also have a source that says that, in theory, Primordus could corrupt a living creature. Zhaitan is the most obvious example of a dragon who “corrupts” rather than “constructs”, and even then the Risen Abominations are an amalgam of corpses sewn together rather than a single corrupted creature.

Those Guru posts also function partially as a reminder—to quote Jeff himself—who are we to say what Elder Dragons can or cannot do? Figuring out how the Elder Dragons work is certainly a worthwhile line of enquiry, but trying to describe their behaviour in detail with the amount of information we have probably isn’t. We’ve faced an entire Elder Dragon’s armies and put it to rest, and yet I still don’t think I could confidently say I know anywhere near all there is to know about Zhaitan. Frankly, for all we know all dragons could be capable of corrupting or constructing minions. The larger dragon champions, if not leftover corupted creatures from a previous dragonrise, could easily be draconic constructs, created in the image of their Elder Dragon masters (the only thing we really have to suggest otherwise is that line about Glint “regaining” free will).

Anyway, I don’t think I ever said the husks or hounds were confirmed Mordremoth minions. Just that it seemed likely. Nor did I ever claim to have solid evidence of Mordremoth’s corruption, that Wychmire Swamp is definitely Mordremoth, or what his minions were made of. All I can offer is speculation based on what I think is probable, which is (rather explicitly) what I have been doing throughout this thread. I’m not sure why that upsets you so much—that’s what lore forums are for. It seems you’d rather only discuss the “solid” information we have on Mordremoth, which actually amounts to very little. But the acknowledgement that an alternative to my propositions is implicit, there’s no need to state “this thing in Wychmire Swamp is probably Mordremoth, but it could be something else!” because the second half of that sentence is implied by the first.

To answer your (doubtlessly rhetorical) questions:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The sad fact of the matter is that we have absolutely ZERO confirmed cases of Mordremoth minions. We do not know what they are made of or what they look like. We, in fact, actually have zero proof that Mordremoth’s minions will even be plants! The attack named after him is soil and rock, not plant, so it could be that Mordremoth will end up being a bunch of rock minions – likely? No, not really. The name “Jungle Dragon” comes form its location though and we really don’t have any solid evidence of his corruption – not even Wychmire Swamp is solid evidence (that darker force can be any number of things – Elder Dragons aren’t the only ones whom are dark and ancient forces).

Not sure what you’re getting at here. Mordremoth’s minions could, in principle, be soil or stone, but nobody was claiming otherwise. Theorycrafting by its very nature comes with the disclaimer that “this could well all be wrong”, but that’s not grounds enough to pooh-pooh an argument.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Again, the closest we have is Crucible of Eternity, but also again – how much corruption is there in those minions? Is that how Mordremoth’s minions will look like when fully corrupted?

Given that the minions in the other experimental labs are in advanced stages of corruption and are called “evolved” (although this may not necessarily refer to how corrupted they are) I’d say it’s a reasonable assumption that the nightmare husks and hounds there are “fully corrupted”. Just so we’re on the same page, I’m not saying that they are fully corrupted, just that they could well be.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What they’d be called? Keep in mind not all corruption takes immediate physical change (Icebrood), nor do all those with draconic influence look at all like a dragon minion when the like-dragon minions change instantly. And for name, ArenaNet would easily keep such secret to make it more surprising (it’s more likely to be Blighted than Nightmare or Summoned, or heck, it may even be “Planted” or “Sprouted” or even “Mordy”). We simply do not know. And as such, we cannot make claims to such – even if it is “a simpler explanation” or most likely or most obvious or whatever you wish to call it (ArenaNet are seldom simple in their lore, either way).

I don’t think anyone ever claimed to know what they were called. Unless you’re saying that we can’t speculate, in which case unless someone died and made you king of the lore forums, we kind of can. “Blighted” is a strong contender because it comes from the Wychmire Swamp battle and seems to be the chosen term for the “dark force” there, but it doesn’t appear anywhere else. “Summoned” is quite widely used (only for husks, though) and I think probably refers to how they got there rather than what they are. There’s a fair amount of lore around the sylvari and the druid husks that never made it into the game, I think (we never really found out what this part of the trailer was about), and the same thing may well apply to the Nightmare Court. Sylvari can summon both druid spirits and sylvan hounds, after all.

I think the most likely contender is nightmare to be honest, since that seems to be Mordremoth’s vector for spreading corruption. It’s also used for all suspected minions of Mordremoth (husks, hounds, vines) except for the Shadow of the Dragon.

Btw, the fact that there are different “stages” of corruption made me think of Scarlet and the Nightmare Court. Their motivations are definitely worth a comparison with Kellach’s.

Finally, we do see hounds without courtiers in at least one place I can think of off the top of my head, in the sylvari tutorial instance.

Tamias.7059:

All I was saying that because all the other minions in those labs are dragon minions, to me it seems likely that the husks and hounds are as well. That’s all. I said nothing about how they came to be dragon minions (although the Inquest explanation seems unlikely given these creatures’ activities elsewhere).

Tamias.7059:

Wow, why is this not more common knowledge? The husks and hounds are linked to Mordremoth, but up until now we had nothing linking Mordremoth and the Nightmare Court. If the NC are responsible for creating the husks, then that’s something that directly relates them and Mordremoth.

It felt more than heavily implied.

Let me do a more direct counter to your statement then: Just because Husks can be corrupted by Mordremoth, doesn’t mean in any way, shape, or form that their originators are already corrupted by Mordremoth – which is what you rather explicitly state, that linking the Husks’ origin to the Nightmare Court links the Nightmare Court to Mordremoth (even though there’s no evidence to support any husk outside CoE is influenced by Mordremoth).

Tamias.7059:

As an aside, I think you’re looking at the “different kind of minions” thing the wrong way. -snip-

You completely misunderstood me. And insult me by believing I don’t know everything you posted in that paragraph, when I was the one who had pointed them to you before.

I was saying that in the most generals of generals, this is what minions are – that they are created either from organic or inorganic matter, and never made themselves. That each and every one of them comes from something. Be it rock (destroyers), ice (Icebrood Elementals), lightning (Branded Air Elemental), or other.

The hounds, being born from the Pale Tree like the sylvari, cannot count as this in of itself. You tend to try to do one or the other. In the case of mentioning sylvari, I was making a pre-emptive strike since you went further off-topic with bringing up the Wychmire Swamp meta and Shadow of the Dragon – both of which are 100% completely irrelevant to the topic OP, or to my comment of no concrete proof of Mordremoth minions (or influence beyond CoE).

On the flip side, Husks, being made of organic matter, cannot be like destroyers, which the typical view of them as dragon minions (not necessarily by you) takes them as.

Tamias.7059:

All I can offer is speculation based on what I think is probable, which is (rather explicitly) what I have been doing throughout this thread. I’m not sure why that upsets you so much—that’s what lore forums are for.

You completely missed why your post felt like a slap to my face, as well as your latest response. It is not you theorizing. It is you acting like I don’t know all these points you repeatedly bring up, knowing that you’ve told them to me previously – and possibly even knowing that I myself have brought them up before.

Tamias.7059:

It seems you’d rather only discuss the “solid” information we have on Mordremoth, which actually amounts to very little.

No, rather, I’d stop trying to take “most likelies” as facts, which you have a huge tendency to do. And I’d rather you stop trying to bring out every point of “fact” to me every single time this discussion is held.

Tamias.7059:

Given that the minions in the other experimental labs are in advanced stages of corruption and are called “evolved” (although this may not necessarily refer to how corrupted they are) I’d say it’s a reasonable assumption that the nightmare husks and hounds there are “fully corrupted”. Just so we’re on the same page, I’m not saying that they are fully corrupted, just that they could well be.

I would argue otherwise. Sparkfly Fen would not happen long before Crucible of Eternity, storywise, so there isn’t that much time passed between the Inquest acquiring husks and them being in CoE. Furthermore, destroyer and risen corruption is (usually) instantaneous, and while Icebrood is not, except for the Colossus all are in standard (not long progressed) states.

Tamias.7059:

I don’t think anyone ever claimed to know what they were called. Unless you’re saying that we can’t speculate, in which case unless someone died and made you king of the lore forums, we kind of can.

I never said we cannot speculate, however, my point was not in someone claiming a name, but that we don’t know the name – and as such, we have even less hold on what Mordremoth’s method of corruption is.

Like before, you completely took my point the other way around.

Tamias.7059:

I think the most likely contender is nightmare to be honest, since that seems to be Mordremoth’s vector for spreading corruption. It’s also used for all suspected minions of Mordremoth (husks, hounds, vines) except for the Shadow of the Dragon.

And this is my issue with your wording. Not that your theorycrafting, but you’re stating it as fact.

It is not the most likely contender because we know far too little, and NOTHING connects, firmly, that the Nightmare is dragon corruption. If you still retain it’s the “most likely contender” that contender is as big as an ant.

Tamias.7059:

Finally, we do see hounds without courtiers in at least one place I can think of off the top of my head, in the sylvari tutorial instance.

Except that the entire thing is outright stated to be the Nightmare Court’s doing. They’re still tied to Nightmare, and not to anything else or lacking Nightmare Court influence.

A husk refers to a discarded plant shell. Some, possibly all, are the discarded bodies of druids.

They seem to be prone to being corrupted by both the nightmare court and other forces. Hardly surprising, considering that they are empty shells.

There’s nothing connecting the summoned husks and druid husks but that name. Druid husks are immobile treants. Summoned husks are bipedal creatures, large, but not near so large as the druid husks, with no recognizable face. The Nightmare Court are never seen to interact with the druid husks, and druid husks are never seen to be corrupted (by the Nightmare Court or any other entity). All you have is a name and one shared attribute (they’re both composed of wood). As well argue that the Nightmare Court are possessed by nightmares- same name, after all, and both are evil.

Oh, and druid “husk” is a misnomer. They aren’t discarded- events in the area show that they still contain the druids’ power and spirits. That part of your argument misses the mark too.

The name husk clearly implies that they are discarded. They have not been created by the NC, or the wurms, or the dragons. Instead, they have been possessed and corrupted.

If we’re talking about summoned husks now, then I would agree… but only because that’s how the Elder Dragons do things, not because of the name.

If Summoned Husks are a result of Mordremoth’s corruption, you mean.

But druid husks are not corrupted in any fashion.