Guild Wars 2

Quote: “Blood, Ash, and Iron legions’ complete rejection of the Flame Legion also rejected the Flame Legion’s values and beliefs as well. This has shaped current Charr society towards maltheism and technology, rather than magical advancement.”

I for one, am against this. Simple reasons:

- Asuran Technology is far more dangerous than Flame Legion magical arts. Which has been proven by the Inquest delving into Elder dragon magic and dimensional testing that has shown catastrophic damage which was proven to cause permanent damage to the world.

- There has already been rebellions within the Flame Legion. Why cant Flame Legion change their values and beliefs that can become shared values with the other Charr?

- Flame Legion magic was still used and preserved to this day by personal story and historical safe keeping events.

- If Flame Legion would change, this would help make the Charr race strong again, only this time with the combination of magic and technology and no religious interference this time.

I just refuse the idea that every other race can dive into magic but Charr wishes to abandon it.

Anyone care to explain how a Charr Elementalist/Mesmer fits into this Lore? Wouldn’t they have to join Flame Legion instead of being allowed into the other ones?

Charr don’t reject magic outright, just the philosophies of the Flame Legion. You can see Iron Legion elementalists among the Sentinels in Blazeridge, and in one of the Charr personal storylines your sire is a mesmer. Magic is looked down upon by the High Legions not for itself, but for its link to the Flame Shamans. In GW1, Flame Legion shamans enforced the worship of the Titans among the Legions, and once they were cast down they tried to find gods to replace the titans. Currently, they worship Gaheron Baelfire. It is the idea that the charr need gods which most charr are opposed to, and I assume this is the main source of conflict between the High Legions and the Flame Legions.

I believe there is a difference between magic users and shamans as well. Shamans are a cultural class, a caste, which supported the worship of the titans. Elementalist is a practical term, and just means anyone who uses elemental magic.

the charr legion’s don’t reject magic entirely. just it’s primacy. what part of the flame legion doctrine would assist the other legions?

EDIT
what Rhubarb said

Basic rebuttal:

The Flame legion isn’t outcast for using magic. It’s outcast for being a deranged cult that believes it needs to recognize the supremacy of a higher power. The magic they use is a reflection of this belief, not the cause of it. They’re willfully enslaving some part of themselves to another entity in exchange for power. As a society they’re much closer to the Sons of Svanir than they are to other Charr, moreso when you consider that at the very least other norn have similar religious and cultural beliefs in terms of animal spirits wheras other Charr are athiests.

I agree with all of the above responses, especially PopeUrban’s comparison of the Sons of Svanir/Jormag and the Flame Legion/titans. I always got the impression that the modern day charr really hated the idea of being dependent on an external power – they want to be in charge of their own fates, not to be slaves again. This would mean that magic they develop and control is fine – but they tend away from it still because of its associations with Flame Legion shamans. Charr tech is a distinctly charr thing, it’s all them, so it’s both controllable and dependable.

If you think about it, asura have more physical fighters even though ideologically they value intelligence, magic and gadgets over brute strength. It might be looked down on by some, but strength is still useful. Similarly, the charr do have magic users, it’s just not something the race as a whole value very highly.

Nor are the Charr legions blind enough to outcast a loyal charr citizen that happens to have adapted well to the use of magic. They are willing to use all tools at their disposal.

This is very interesting to read, however considering the historical facts about the dead god “Abaddon” with the “Blood Stone” ordeal, as well the six human gods and that history; I find a conflict in this still about the current Charr magic users. Not to mention the reformation of the “Blood Stone” in Arah path 4.

So while Charr may not turn a Blind-Eye to currect Charr magic users, the magic itself in question was still given to be used, per say.

What are your thoughts about this?

Much of what the humans think are historical facts are fiction created by their “gods”.
The gods for example did not create Tyria, though they did try to reshape it. How do we know Abaddon was bad and the other gods good? Because they said so.

Charr are non really against magic. They don’t like it mostly but it’s not about magic. They simply can’t take in ideals of flame legion.

Conflict of interests.

Also charr don’t like to be ruled by shaman caste, they are atheists. Flame Legiona re not atheists and think shaman caste should rule all.

Ramei.2715:

Much of what the humans think are historical facts are fiction created by their “gods”.
The gods for example did not create Tyria, though they did try to reshape it. How do we know Abaddon was bad and the other gods good? Because they said so.

Well he was evil in a completely relative sense, just like the dragons are evil in a completely relative sense.

Stuff that wants to kill or enslave you is usually considered evil, and Abaddon was pretty in to that.

Well, according to the wiki history of GW1, in a summary of the situation, and the game itself; it was Abaddon that gave the creatures of Tyria the gift of magic, however due to the nature of things, power brings corruption and so a magic war was formed.

The Gods then sealed all magic in the Blood Stones and put them in Abaddon’s Mouth; Ring of Fire Islands. When the Volcano erupted, the blood stones were scattered and magic was then freely used.

Now in the GW2 many Bloodstone shards were found in Arah (Path 4). Once they were put back together, a Bloodstone was formed, only to disappear mysteriously.

So what I am questioning about is, the Origin of Magic, which is hinted that the Gods brought magic to this world with Abaddon playing a major role in it.

So Charr has abandon Flame Legion ways and claimed “maltheism and technology”. Even though with no Titans are around, per say, the Titans themselves did work for Abaddon during that time line, also… Abaddon’s Temple during a personal story in GW2, was still active.

So what I am confused about is the current available Charr magic users, you can’t claim “maltheism” as a race, when these magic users still exist, that’s using magic originally bestowed by Abaddon, who was a god even though dead, so to speak.

Now do not also forget that all magic was put into the Blood Stones, by the gods, that are were scattered around the world, after the eruption.

So in way Charr are like turning a Blind-Eye to magic, and yet they are not. You can’t have both ways.

So again this is where I find the conflict and question it.

Shadowlancer.7102:

So what I am confused about is the current available Charr magic users, you can’t claim “maltheism” as a race, when these magic users still exist, that’s using magic originally bestowed by Abaddon, who was a god even though dead, so to speak.

Now do not also forget that all magic was put into the Blood Stones, by the gods, that are were scattered around the world, after the eruption.

So in way Charr are like turning a Blind-Eye to magic, and yet they are not. You can’t have both ways.

So again this is where I find the conflict and question it.

I expect Charr magic users (outside the Flame Legion) who accept accounts of Abaddon view it like looting valuable supplies form an enemy. Using his “gift” doesn’t empower him in any way, and if they met him they’d be happy to use it as just another tool to kill him. Those who accept him as the source of their gift are likely particularly contemptuous of him for freely sharing such a profound tactical advantage. The Charr also have legends of Melandru creating the world, and we haven’t seen them rejecting any of her supposed “gifts”, just making extremely practical (if perhaps a bit environmentally shortsighted) use of them.

As Ramei says, a lot of what we ‘know’ about the gods is actually human religious doctrine which may or may not be literally true. We know the gods didn’t actually create Tyria, but I can understand why that would be a logical thing for humans to assume once they started worshipping them. We’re told Abbadon introduced magic into the world, but it could just as easily be the case that he just taught magic to humans. Still, the creation of the Bloodstones does suggest a significant control of magic (as mortals use it) so who knows?

Re. Abbadon, I wrote this some time ago while playing Nightfall, and it may be of interest to some of you. Purely fiction/speculation, but it aims to show how ambiguous the situation really is.

If you talk to some of the Jotun npcs, they explain that magic existed long before the gods ever showed up. The Jotun had this huge magical empire, not to mention mursaat, seers, and of course the dragons. But most races couldn’t use magic.

What Abbadon did (as I understand it) was to give magic to ALL races, including the newly arrived humans. But when all those lesser races starting killing each with magic, the gods took back the magic, and sealed it in the bloodstones. Now you get the different magic schools: destruction, preservation, denial, aggression.

I don’t know if the charr think of magic as “accepting Abbadon’s gifts”. After all, how would they even know he exists (back in the day, when they first got magical)? It’s the same thing with the grawl or the krait: they use magic, but they never “accepted” anything from any god. In gw1, most humans didn’t even know about Abbadon until he tried to take over the world. I don’t think Abbadon was like “hey, you, wanna have some magic?” It was just that one day, you couldn’t use magic; the next, you could. You didn’t know where it came from, and why would you think that some god had given it to you?

My two cents.

The “Complete Rejection of Values and Beliefs” refers more to practices like:

-Worshipping Gods
-Giving Charr authority by claiming they are the mouthpiece of “Gods”
-Oppressing/enslaving women
-Rejecting technology in favor of magic
-Repeating time-consuming and risky rituals over and over again to appease Gods or Shamans
-Self-mutilation of magic users

As is clear from all the Charr elementalists, necromancers, and mesmers running around—magic still has a place in Charr society. Flame Legion, on the other hand, does not.

It is even stated in the lore that when Kalla Scorchrazor overthrew Flame Legion, she chose to spare the Shamans and keep magic a part of Charr society, because it was useful.

Charr don’t particularly like magic, but they don’t reject it.

I think this is an excellent question!

Anyways, The Charr are a naturally stubborn race, just look at the war between them and Ascalon. During the First Guild Wars your character alone destroys hundreds and before the Searing you watch them get slaughtered in masses daily at the Wall.

After the Searing the Charr keep going after the Humans even though the majority of Ascalon belongs to them and even when the humans are dead and are now immortal ghosts bent on killing them, again the Charr keep coming.

The Charr are stubborn they will die before they will bend.

That said I think every single Legion and its values reflect a specific part of the Charr species Internal Nature.

Iron- Industrialness, innovation, etc etc.

Blood-Brutality, straightforwardness, aggressiveness, pride, etc

Ash-Cleverness(they’re cats what do you expect?), subtlety(a trait they did not show well during the war against Ascalon), subterfuge, deceit, etc

Flame-Destructiveness, Ruthlessness, Ambition, etc etc.

Flame Legion rebellions are natural because Flame Legion IS ambition, most Charr you talk to who have joined seem to have done it for selfish reasons entirely. The Flame Legion is the ultimate representation of all the evil within the Charr as a species and will continue to exist as long as the species does, that said the fact that the Charr has ostracized and fights this nature is a good sign for them.

Also we can see evidence of this destructiveness in the Ascalonian environment. Typically where the Charr settle nature is thrown aside, Now I am all for industrial revolutions and understand nature needs to be pushed aside sometimes, but ArenaNet intentionally made it obvious how bad of an effect the Charr have on the environment, and I believe this is to help display the inner nature of the Charr.

Even if I am wrong(certainly possible) the Flame Legion won’t die, not unless mass genocide is committed upon every single one of them because thats what it would haven taken for the Ascalonians to defeat the Charr.