Guild Wars 2

This, along with the fact that the flame legion now worship destroyers instead of titans, makes me think that the Flame Legion are openly working for Primordius, and the living story was his first strike with his new army.

Well, so far Primordus hasn’t shown any interest in dealing with anything living, isntead just killing everything with his minions. However, that doesn’t mean that the Flame Legion couldn’t think they’re working for the dragon.

I think it’s more of the Flame Legion’s arrogance than alluding to their collaboration with a dragon. By the way, where do you find Flame Legion worshipping destroyers in GW2? I may have missed it, but last I knew there was only 1 attempt back in GW1 and it blew up in their face. Also, was this dialogue from the Veteran Flame Legion guy in the Black Citadel jail? All I was able to get from him was his disgust that a woman even thought she could talk to him. My personal interest is who the “fast talking guy from the city” was that helped the Flame Legion talk the dredge into the alliance in the first place.

The golem in lions arch at the priory site says that the USED-TO-WORSHIP-TITANS, NOW-DESTROYERS.

EDIT: Thats what you get for being out of the kitchen. :P

Devs have stated Elder Dragons are not related anyhow in this arc. It’s more likely Consortium shadowy business.

Also, Beetle, the golem states they worshipped Titans before, and Destroyers later, not now. Therefore, referring to GW1.

Eluveitie.1290:

Devs have stated Elder Dragons are not related anyhow in this arc. It’s more likely Consortium shadowy business.

Also, Beetle, the golem states they worshipped Titans before, and Destroyers later, not now. Therefore, referring to GW1.

Well I wouldn’t expect them to come out and say that this is to do with a ED, they gotta leave some mystery, and it just sounds way to coincidental for it not to be a ED.

Personal story is about the Elder Dragons. The Living Story is going to center around other threats, like our upcoming nemesis. If all the world’s problems somehow boiled down to “The Elder Dragon did it!”, the GW2 storyline would be d.o.a.

As for the quote from the prisoner, you have to remember that the Flame Legion is beyond arrogant. These are the same people that were trying to make their own god, out of one of their own members, to worship. They think they can out survive everyone, because they think they are that much better than them.

Beetle.2476:

The golem in lions arch at the priory site says that the USED-TO-WORSHIP-TITANS, NOW-DESTROYERS.

It actually says “Worshippers-of-the-Hrangmer-titans-and-later-the-destroyers, minions-of-Primordus.”

They no longer worship Destroyers – hell, they didn’t even for a full year.

But anyways – I found that interesting too, and since the 2009 trailer showing the early form of Gaheron and his “god form,” I’ve been wondering if, rather than worshipping, the Flame Legion are siphoning Primordus’ power. In a similar way that Duncan wanted to harness the Great Destroyer’s power even after its death, I’ve always been thinking that the Flame Legion were after the Destroyers’ power. Their self-mutilating rituals that turn their bodies (starting with their hands and eyes, then their abdomens and horns) makes me think of a tie to Primordus and how the Elder Dragons corrupt living beings – the changes seem to start from the inside out, based on Icebrood and Branded (well, Icebrood’s harder to tell and may be from the outside in).

Another thing to note is that Icebrood corruption also seems to begin at the same points of the body: at the hands, head, and chest – though rather than turning horns into ice, horns are made (an interesting observation, imo, and I’m curious how charr turned to Icebrood would react at that point).

Third thing to note about the Flame Legion’s “Gaheron ritual” as they seem to call it would be the Dredge’s reactions to undergoing it – they seem to become a lot more hostile in personality, with favoritism of, to quote the Protector (I believe) aggro line: “Burn! Burn! Buuuuurrrn!” Of all charr, I’d say the shamans who undergo the ritual are the most aggressive, and then you got the dredge undergoing the ritual being equally aggressive and fire-manic.

Erukk.1408:

Personal story is about the Elder Dragons. The Living Story is going to center around other threats, like our upcoming nemesis. If all the world’s problems somehow boiled down to “The Elder Dragon did it!”, the GW2 storyline would be d.o.a.

However, the Flame Legion siphoning or working for an Elder Dragon doesn’t equate to “the Elder Dragon did it!” – if it was, then it’d be no different than saying the Sons of Svanir and Inquest can never, ever, ever become part of the Living Story.

The thing is, the Living Story is just the progression of the world’s story. Which deals with everything.

I was paraphrasing Konig, and how do we know they stopped? They could still be using destroyer power, and I think they are. The ones who undergo the ritual also seem to act similar to those who become Icebrood, becoming constantly agitated, and become obsessed with chaos and destruction. At least the centaurs and Inquest are capable of forming treaties with other lands or using some peaceful approaches to power, IE Lionguard and Arcane Council. And the Nightmare doesn’t want power, they just do chaos to “free sylvari from the dream.” The only 2 who use brute force alone(without being pushed into an alliance) are the Flame Legion and the Sons of Svanir. I don’t think what happened with the alliance was caused by Primordius, but he did get a ton of new people becoming minions, so why wouldn’t he use this to his advantage?

We were explicitly told by developers back in 2009/2010 that the charr “learned from their mistakes” about worshiping the Destroyers – it’s the very reason why they’ve turned to making a god rather than finding one. The whole plot around Gaheron trying to become a god is brought about the failures of worshiping the titans and Destroyers.

Just to note: They did NOT use Destroyer power during the short time they had them as gods. Truth be told, they didn’t really even worship them – they just made them out to be gods so that others would worship them.

An issue with your argument, Beetle, is the high chance that the Nightmare – and in turn Nightmare Court – may hold ties to Mordremoth. Too many connections exist to argue otherwise (though I will forever stand by the notion that sylvari in of themselves are not related to Mordremoth – just the Nightmare and, in turn, Nightmare Court). It should also be noted that the icebrood are also capable of making alliances – such as with the uncorrupted Sons of Svanir – just like the Flame Legion clearly were capable of doing with the Molten Alliance (even if their end goal with the dredge was to subjugate them) and the Nightmare Court also use a lot of forcefulness. Also take note that each dragons’ minions all act differently – which can attest for the differences in Flame Legion and Nightmare Court to the others.

The Flame Legion are clearly not fully influenced by Primordus – not in the least. Primordus doesn’t even seem to want or be interested in corrupting living beings. But that doesn’t mean that the Flame Legion can’t be siphoning power from Primordus and holding some mental alterations – why else would they brutally and ruthlessly slaughter potential converts (the fahrars that were wiped out when Diessa was attacked). Primordus seems most intent with genocide and eradication of all life – rather than conversion or enslavement like the other Elder Dragons – which is an interesting parallel to the Flame Legion’s desire to subjugate or eradicate everything not themselves or allied to themselves, with the “Godforged” (the self-mutilated ones) being the most aggressive for killing.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

An issue with your argument, Beetle, is the high chance that the Nightmare – and in turn Nightmare Court – may hold ties to Mordremoth. Too many connections exist to argue otherwise (though I will forever stand by the notion that sylvari in of themselves are not related to Mordremoth – just the Nightmare and, in turn, Nightmare Court).

Hold on – too many connections? You probably have more than that, so I’d like to hear more about this, since I haven’t seen so many such connections. By contrary, the Nightmare Court lacks signs of physical corruption. You might argue that the Husks are such corrupted beings, but where are those in between? No Nightmare Court member has said anything related to a dragon as far as I know, either. In Twilight Arbor story mode, Caithe remarks about she and Faolain encountered a “great evil”, which Faolain embraced while Caithe turned away from. Now, Caithe is part of the Edge of Destiny (well, was, depending on the point of story you look at), surely if she had realized encountering a dragon or it’s minions, she would have said so. Of course, the chance are that neither really knew what it was that they encountered (there might be details in one of the books, I do not know) exists.

Point being, I’d like to hear more about these connections, even though it might sidetrack the topic.

This isn’t really the thread on it and I’ve put a lot of said connections mentioned in other threads, though I’m still researching it all. To summarize:

1. I don’t think the NC are corrupted – just influenced. The sylvari are immune to corruption for 3 known dragons (Zhaitan, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik); Primordus doesn’t seem to corrupt living beings itself and the DSD is unknown. It’d be weird if Mordremoth is the only dragon who can corrupt the NC. Instead, I think they’re being mentally influenced – via the Nightmare – into working indirectly for the Elder Dragon by, effectively, removing the greatest threat: sylvari wanting to save others.
2. The Nightmare’s influence is irreversible. No one twisted by the nightmare is able to return. This is explicitly stated a multitude of times and perfectly parallels Elder Dragon corruption. Similarly, it parallels how many Icebrood retain their former personalities – many Sons of Svanir are willingly corrupted, just as many Courtiers willingly join the Nightmare.
3. Crucible of Eternity – Nightmare Husks, Torrental Husks, Flametouched Husks, Nightmare Hounds, and Deathly Blossoms. All are also seen in Twilight Arbor in large numbers. The Evolved Husk is especially interesting as it’s remensiscent of…
4. Wychmire Swamp. Gandaran or w/e his name is that starts the meta event states that he senses a dark presence unrelated to the Nightmare Court – this turns out to be these various “Blighted” enemies. Blighted Grubs, Blighted Mortars, Blighted Husks, Avatars of Blight. The Blighted Husks using standard Summoned/Nightmare Husk models, while the Avatars of Blight use an extra-hotted model – shared with the Evolved Husk and The Defiler (from TA exp). The Giant Jungle Wurm also has cousins related to the Nightmare Court – the Nightmare Vines witnessed in TA explorable. In other words, sans the grubs, everything related to these “Blighted” are related also solely to the Nightmare Court.
5. Nightmare Hounds specifically show that physical corruption missing in the Nightmare Courtiers. It’s even specifically stated that they, too, can not be reverted back to their old form – physically or mentally. Just like Elder Dragon minions.
6. Regarding that “great evil” you talked about – not necessarily so, however, I believe that it is stated that they met this “great evil” while in Orr. And specifically, that great evil being Zhaitan and/or its influence on the land. Though this I’m not 100% on. It’s even said long before, either in 2009 or beforehand in the interviews or in The Movement of the World that many suspect the nightmare is related to the Elder Dragons.

There are other things I believe tied to Mordremoth and/or the Nightmare (Court) such as the Veteran Mossheart event outside The Grove which can become corrupted (shares the same model as the Rotting Oakhearts – the champ in Queensdale, which has an NPC talking about spreading corrupting – and the vet in Thaumanova Reactor, which was the precursor to the Crucible of Eternity). But this is the stuff that directly links the two together.

I’m currently working on an article on this for GuildMag, where I’d go in much further detail, but basically the three locations of interest remain Caledon (specifically Wychmire and 1 heart and 1 landmark), TA, and CoE. From these three locations, you get the above connections. And then some if you expand your search to the things related to those places.

Yes, when you put it that way, it would make sense (though I’d argue that the case with Nightmare Vines is just Anet reusing models to save effort). Impressive research, actually. Even though the connections aren’t solid, there’s quite a lot of them, which brings the chance of it being just coincidental rather low. I’ll have to look into this, see if I can find more about it.

The lines Caithe said in Twilight Arbor were as follows… (straight from the wiki)

Caithe: “When our race was new, we travelled together, her and I. We became close.”
Caithe: “We found a great darkness. I pulled back from it. Faolain embraced it.”

“And something I just found revisiting Brisban Wildlands… "=http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_the_arboreal_spirit_to_its_husk,_and_drive_away_the_hylek

The druid felt something call it south – you can also see inanimate mosshearts at Wychmire Swamp, possibly druids. It could be related to the Thaumanova Reactor, which is south of where the event takes place, but it could also be related to the Jungle Dragon. Just southwest of Toxal Bog, a large round shape can be seen on the map, that corresponds to either Dry Top, a rather unimportant area in GW1, or Henge of Denravi, the former meeting place of the Maguuma druids. Perhaps, sensing the corruption of Modremoth, the spirits of the druids are returning to the Henge?

I’ll have to investigate this druid angle more later, now back to the topic…

Speaking to the Dredge prisoner in the instance where you return to Rox, it looks pretty sure that the molten alliance was brought together by a single person, “fast-talking friend from the city”, “evil trickster”, “snake” using “seductive words and slippery promises”.

The line about being there long after the dragons have swallowed the pact and the five races seems to hint at Flame Legion knowing, at least believing to know more about the elder dragons than we do. Or, it could be just bluff.

I don’t know where it’s elaborated, but I do remember it being mentioned that the darkness was encountered in Orr.

Druids are formerly human Krytans, those “stone faces” are far too huge to be druid heads. I don’t know what they are, though I’ve considered the notion they could be tied to the Wychmire darkness.

Henge of Denravi is east of Toxal Bog – we can go there in-game. Well, its ruins. Which is southeast of where the druid is, and has a few druid husks within it as well.

As to the Molten Alliance – if you talk to the Flame Prisoner as a male charr (female charr just gives you insults from him), he mentions that the Flame were intending to “mine the dredge for their secrets, use them to gain territory, then put them in their place” from the very beginning.

Well that’s silly of me, missing the place name like that. I was under the impression the henge was just outside the explorable map… Oh well, to error is human.

Oh, and I wasn’t referring to the stone heads, but to the inanimate mosshearts (well, at least one of them) that can be found in large tree stumps around the swamp.

I don’t recall any inanimate mosshearts. They’re all living, and targettable.

Besides, Druids use Willowheart models.

Here’s a screenshot of the mossheart I’m talking about.

Could be it’s just a dead mossheart and nothing more, but something about it’s placement and the fact that it just is there tells me it might just be something important. Oh, and about the druids all using Willowheart skins… well, that’s the druids we have encountered, which are not many nor from varying regions. Chances are, the appearance of the druids is affected by the kind of area they inhabit.

Look at us derailing this thread…

The druids themselves are going to be pretty much limited to areas of the Maguuma Wastes and the Maguuma Jungle, and from what we saw in GW1, mostly the Maguuma Wastes (noting that Brisbane Wildlands is much closer to the wastes than the jungle, particularly in the areas that the druid bodies are located)

Just to note, the Maguuma Wastes is part of the Maguuma Jungle – the dried out portions (which has expanded over the 250 years – despite common statement, the “wastes” did exist in GW1, they just weren’t differentiated from the rest of the Maguuma Jungle sans Tarnished Coast being differentiated).

Yes, but in GW2 the Maguuma Wastes seem to have come into being their own specific zone, different from the Maguuma Jungle (which in achievement terms is the old Tarnished Coast and the Steamspur Mountains) In my mind the Maguuma Wastes is a term used now to identify the desert like portion of what used to be the Maguuma Jungle. All of the druids we find are somewhat hovering on the line that exists between the Jungle and the Wastes.

Never use achievements for lore. Otherwise you’d be having Gravelings as Ascalonian Ghosts.

The Maguuma Jungle is the region that contains the Maguuma Wastes, Tarnished Coast, and Magus Falls – three “sub-regions” as one could call them, that are part of the Maguuma Jungle. The Steamspur Mountians are part of the Shiverpeak Mountains (or at least, seem to be still).

The Maguuma Wastes is still part of the Maguuma Jungle, but they’re not part of the Tarnished Coast (what’s literally the coastline of the Maguuma Jungle).

Yes, but my statement still stands that the Maguuma Wastes is a term used to describe what used to be part of the Maguuma Jungle but is now a total wasteland. You cannot go calling what is now the Wastes a Jungle anymore than you can keep calling the Crystal Desert a Sea. As terrain changes so do names, in order to reflect what the area now is. But this has no pertinence to what I was even originally talking about. I was merely stating that Tuomir’s statement about druids having differing models based on their location may be slightly true, but they will still be extremely limited because of the fact that the druids are only really found in GW1 in the territory that is currently the Maguuma Wastes, and perhaps just a little further south.

Thing is that it is still considered a part of the Maguuma Jungle. And though never given a unique name, it was present even in GW1. Remember Sage Lands, etc? Where you had the top to be barren, and the bottom to be lush jungle? Even Bloodstone Fen was like such.

Incidentally, because of your post I kind of missed Tuomir suggesting druids change based on location – which wouldn’t make sense given that 1) they’re found in the same habitat and 2) Willowhearts don’t reside within the Maguuma Jungle (I presume this is why Willowheart models were used for them – it’s uniquely different than both the mossheart and the oakheart models seen by treants in the Maguuma).

All I’m saying is that there’s a possibility – we’ve seen very few confirmed druids in GW2, and Maguuma is a vast area with varying environments. Druids shed their original bodies to become closer to the nature, so it would make sense that they would take shape from the nature around them. However, we’ve only seen druids in a very small area in Brisban Wildlands AFAIK, one of which tells that it(?) was “called south”. The willowheart model makes perfect sense in Brisban Wildlands, which is noticeably cooler and less humid (as in, not jungle) than the southern zones.

What I find particularly interesting is the line about being called south – Henge of Denravi had been largely abandoned by the druids when they left their human forms, and centuries ago it was destroyed by the White Mantle, so it would seem unlikely that it was calling for the druids. Perhaps the Inquest had something to do with it, seeing how they are tapping into the husks at the bog, perhaps it was the distortion caused by the Thaumanova Reactor catastrophe, or perhaps it was caused by an yet unknown force – like the influence of an elder dragon.

I’d say it’s a possible connection, even if a very minor one.

I’m personally on the boat that doesn’t fully understand why there are husks in the first place, being as these things did not exist in GW1. It leaves me a little curious why these things appeared since the druids left their physical form before our time.

As to my little bickering argument with Konig… I’m moving on. I can see there’s no point in continuing and there are much more IMPORTANT things that can be discussed.

Henge of Denravi and Maguuma Stade was the furthest south the druids went. We were in the further southern areas in GW1, in Eye of the North, with no influence of druids. Nor were there east of the Ullen River where Wychmire Swamp now lies. The Henge was the furthest east the druids really went, more or less.

That “calling south” may have been a druidic meeting at Maguuma Stade – we know in GW1 that they can call each other (Bloodstone Fen mission), but most were seen north, which is now wastes, so by your argument they’d be witheredhearts or some such.

Though the Thaumanova Reactor problem calling the druids, who are custodians of nature and thus would work to clean up such problems, does make sense.

But if you’re trying to argue that the druids turned into treants because of Mordremoth, or they’re somehow tied to Mordremoth in some other way in the form of being minions, you cannot pick a more anti-minion group other than sylvari (which the “theory” that sylvari are dragon minions itself is absurd with dozens of counter arguments).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Henge of Denravi and Maguuma Stade was the furthest south the druids went. We were in the further southern areas in GW1, in Eye of the North, with no influence of druids. Nor were there east of the Ullen River where Wychmire Swamp now lies. The Henge was the furthest east the druids really went, more or less
That “calling south” may have been a druidic meeting at Maguuma Stade – we know in GW1 that they can call each other (Bloodstone Fen mission), but most were seen north, which is now wastes, so by your argument they’d be witheredhearts or some such.

Though the Thaumanova Reactor problem calling the druids, who are custodians of nature and thus would work to clean up such problems, does make sense.

But if you’re trying to argue that the druids turned into treants because of Mordremoth, or they’re somehow tied to Mordremoth in some other way in the form of being minions, you cannot pick a more anti-minion group other than sylvari (which the “theory” that sylvari are dragon minions itself is absurd with dozens of counter arguments).

I think he meant druids are being called to PROTECT the jungle from Modremoth.

Very similar to the theory many people have about the sylvari being born to protect the planet from the dragons. Tyria itself is revolting against the cycle of destruction and pulling out everything it can to fight it. The effects of a dragon rising far outreach the dragon. The book Edge of Destiny has Rata Sum suffering an earthquake, Hoelbrak having geysers erupt from the tundra behind, and a tidal wave carrying ships into the streets of Lion’s Arch all for Kralkatorrik’s awakening. It is very visible that the world itself suffers greatly from the awakening of a dragon, and if the world has any sentience at all (remembering this is GW and crazier things have happened in the mists) it would fight against having another such situation appear again.

Beetle.2476:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Henge of Denravi and Maguuma Stade was the furthest south the druids went. We were in the further southern areas in GW1, in Eye of the North, with no influence of druids. Nor were there east of the Ullen River where Wychmire Swamp now lies. The Henge was the furthest east the druids really went, more or less
That “calling south” may have been a druidic meeting at Maguuma Stade – we know in GW1 that they can call each other (Bloodstone Fen mission), but most were seen north, which is now wastes, so by your argument they’d be witheredhearts or some such.

Though the Thaumanova Reactor problem calling the druids, who are custodians of nature and thus would work to clean up such problems, does make sense.

But if you’re trying to argue that the druids turned into treants because of Mordremoth, or they’re somehow tied to Mordremoth in some other way in the form of being minions, you cannot pick a more anti-minion group other than sylvari (which the “theory” that sylvari are dragon minions itself is absurd with dozens of counter arguments).

I think he meant druids are being called to PROTECT the jungle from Modremoth.

Indeed, to protect the jungle, or to escape from the corruption of Modremoth (as I find it unlikely that Modremoth’s area of influence would lay south of Brisban Wildlands). Druids to the north, in the Maguuma Wastes or to the east in Magus Falls, could have encountered the dragon’s influence, and alerted the rest through something of a mystical connection. And somehow, the thought of corrupted druids scares me.

This seems like it shifted to speculating on whats causing druids to move, so I’m sticking to Tuo’s idea. And blighted husks are basically that, so BEWARE WYCHMIRE SWAMP!

(Which i think Modremoth is causing corruption there, so he is probably somewhere south, but further inland)