Guild Wars 2

For anybody who hasn’t seen it yet: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/march-2013/

Since the last update to flame and frost, when the dredge and flame legion were revealed as the collective bad-guys by the portal events, I have been racking my brain trying to figure out how the Dredge and the Flame Legion could possibly be working together, seeing as the Dredge and the Flame Legion are both xenophobic.

The dredge fear slavery and persecution, every dredge is taught to hate outsiders and surface dwellers as a rule, as stated multiple times in the SE storylines. And the flame legion believe themselves to be favored by their God’s, even above other Charr, and anything which isn’t favored of the Titan’s (now Baelfire) is no better than kindling.

My first thought was that the Flame Legion must have enslaved the Dredge, but the newest update has named this the Molten Alliance, it’s clearly voluntary at this point. My second theory was that there must be some collective power driving them both, some greater lieutenant of the destroyers, or possibly that the Dredge have been adopted by the Flame Legion’s Gods. But the dredge are well aware of the destroyers and their intentions, and if Promordius wants minions he can just make more destroyers, he doesn’t need volunteers. And as for the ‘adoption’ theory, the Flame Legion would never accept a second ‘legion’ as their equals, they are the chosen of the Titan God’s.

I really hope there is a good explanation for this, as of yet it doesn’t make any sense. And if in the end of this story line they just became all buddy-buddy because it was convenient, I will be severely disappointed. People born and bred to hate each other don’t just give up their prejudices because of a common enemy, that would be logical, there is nothing logical about prejudice.

To have a plot hole you must first have a plot.

or

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Tune in next week for a new episode of the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show.

Story of Guild Wars 2 isn’t the strong aspect of the game.

Most of it is ‘they bad guys.’ Go kill.

This is no exception.

This whole Flame & Frost story feels like it was haphazardly thrown together in three seconds, so I really don’t think they put much thought into it beyond “Dredge are badguys, Flame Legion are badguys, let’s make them be badguys together”. But you’re right, basically the whole story makes no sense.

Are you expecting an epic answer? I gave up hope on the Flame and Frost when it was revealed to be freaking dredge and fire legion. Pathetic.

Maybe Dredges managed to actually get friend with the ancient dwarven enemies, the destroyers (which live underground too?), which are the old charr gods too?

Dredges usually become mad and stupid when you name their slavers so yea, they might actually be that dumb imo.

Wait, ‘the third installment in this four-part series’? I thought the first two things were preludes…

Far from defending anet on their plot making, I still would disagree with this:

Conncept.7638:

People born and bred to hate each other don’t just give up their prejudices because of a common enemy, that would be logical, there is nothing logical about prejudice.

History proves it happens time to time
And it could also be that they will not simply throw out of a window their prejudices, maybe it’s only a truce between the two sides.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Far from defending anet on their plot making, I still would disagree with this:

Conncept.7638:

People born and bred to hate each other don’t just give up their prejudices because of a common enemy, that would be logical, there is nothing logical about prejudice.

History proves it happens time to time
And it could also be that they will not simply throw out of a window their prejudices, maybe it’s only a truce between the two sides.

I would agree, the axis powers in WW2 showed that it can happen, but they also showed it can’t last, as the axis powers eventually betrayed each other. Which brings up another theory, that such is the case, and we are going to see this alliance follow it’s natural breakdown over the course of the story. But then what part do we even have in the story?

Conncept.7638:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Far from defending anet on their plot making, I still would disagree with this:

Conncept.7638:

People born and bred to hate each other don’t just give up their prejudices because of a common enemy, that would be logical, there is nothing logical about prejudice.

History proves it happens time to time
And it could also be that they will not simply throw out of a window their prejudices, maybe it’s only a truce between the two sides.

I would agree, the axis powers in WW2 showed that it can happen, but they also showed it can’t last, as the axis powers eventually betrayed each other. Which brings up another theory, that such is the case, and we are going to see this alliance follow it’s natural breakdown over the course of the story. But then what part do we even have in the story?

We’ll see all the story from a dolyak point of view, grazing peacefully xD

DOLYAKS FOR NEW PLAYABLE RACE.
You can’t equip weapons or armor. You just have one button to graze and another to moo.

MAKE IT HAPPEN ANET.

Sure the “Molten Alliance” may feel like it has some plot holes. Both sides are quite xenophobic. But what if, just maybe, there is something bigger pulling the strings.

Wasn’t Jormag notorius for being deceitful? Moreso than the other dragons at least.

what? plot hole?
On the contrary, this is what is makes the plot interesting! What is the reason that they are able to overcome their xenophobia and work together. Was it a promise of power? Or a joint goal? Will one of them maybe at some time stab the other in the back… will we try to set that in motion? It’s a plot hook, not a plot hole.

Flame Legion aren’t xenophobic. They’re oppressors and conquerors.

Anyways, this isn’t a plothole (yet) and will likely be explained, or furthered in some form, in phase 3. I think that it’s either one of three possibilities:

1. They’re put in a corner, so out of desperation they’ve formed an alliance. Being pushed into a corner each makes them desperate for survival – thus they ally with someone who’s an enemy to their enemy(’s allies).
2. There’s benefits to it, and they’re working out of logic rather than emotion now: new enemies for their foes (the norn are not used to fighting Flame Legion charr, and the charr don’t deal with dredge too much) and they have strengths the other lacks (Flame Legion has magic but no tech, dredge has tech but no magic).
3. Something or someone forced them to work together – originally I was thinking Primordus. But with the last news post about Living Story developing, I think its the mentioned “personal nemesis” – the antithesis to our character who instead of uniting the Orders of Tyria is uniting the Villains of Tyria.

For it to be a plothole, there’d have to be a reason that doesn’t make sense – or no reason at all. There likely is a reason. It’d also be a plothole if there isn’t some form of internal strife… which we’ll be able to manipulate I bet, should it exist.

Besides, who wouldn’t want a Charr Effigy/Iron Forgeman combination to fight? I found the Iron Forgeman to be the best story mode dungeon boss in the game. Now picturing it with the epicness that the Gaheron fight could have had… mindgasm.

Tachenon.5270:

Wait, ‘the third installment in this four-part series’? I thought the first two things were preludes…

They were. The preludes were part of the four installments too.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Flame Legion aren’t xenophobic. They’re oppressors and conquerors.

That is not true, the Flame Legion believe themselves to be chosen, set above the remainder of the legions, and all other peoples, by the Gods. This can even be seen within the flame legion, where the Shaman caste is considered the closest to the gods, and females are considered to be the furthest away, and as a result the Shamans rule and the females are fit for nothing but breeding and slavery. I suppose xenophobic isn’t correct as they believe themselves superior because of their religion more than their race, but either way they would never consider the Dredge to be their equals.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Anyways, this isn’t a plothole (yet) and will likely be explained, or furthered in some form, in phase 3.

I’m hoping it will be explained, but as of yet nothing has really indicates that it will be. Now we have two heroes to fight alongside in the event, but how much of the dredge and flame legions story is likely to be covered when they’re nothing but a bunch of nameless mobs? And frankly, if we defeat them without this being covered, or being covered well, I’ll have a problem with that.

Conncept.7638:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Flame Legion aren’t xenophobic. They’re oppressors and conquerors.

That is not true, the Flame Legion believe themselves to be chosen, set above the remainder of the legions, and all other peoples, by the Gods. This can even be seen within the flame legion, where the Shaman caste is considered the closest to the gods, and females are considered to be the furthest away, and as a result the Shamans rule and the females are fit for nothing but breeding and slavery. I suppose xenophobic isn’t correct as they believe themselves superior because of their religion more than their race, but either way they would never consider the Dredge to be their equals.

The Flame Legion also believed that Gaheron Baelfire was going to be their god, but instead he and much of their leaders were destroyed in the Explorables. It seems highly likely that the current leaders are grasping for straws. At the same time the Dredge are in the midst of a rebellion. We do not know exactly how the rebellion is working out, but I can guess that their leaders might be losing, and they are joining with the Flame Legion as a power grab.

As Narcemus just said, both factions have much to gain from co-operation. The Flame Legion have just lost their leadership, so not only are they in the midst of regime change that opens other possibilities because they are also losing. It may be time to switch tactics.

At the same time, you the Dredge in the midst of a Revolution. I would wager that since the Dredge have become increasingly more open to ‘ends justify the means’ work methodology (they already were willing to work with the Inquest which pretty much viewed them as an inexhaustable supply of test subjects). So an alliance between the two is actually very feasible. In return for numbers and machine, the Dredge get access to magic which they previously weren’t known to use. The Flame Legion in selling their magical expertise, get access to soldiers and technology. Both factions stand to gain considerable territory against both the Charr and the Norn (who have been hampering each of them since launch).

I’d hardly consider this a ‘out of character’ development, considering where these two factions have been placed. And I think the link to a figure who is banding together antagonists would actually make the most logical Nemesis for us. The Pact has proven itself remarkably well equipped for dealing not only with Dragons but with the Antagonistic groups that plague each of the 5 major races. No doubt after the Pact took such a strong role in dealing with the Flame Legion other races and factions who aren’t directly aligned with the pact would become increasingly worried.

Conncept.7638:

I would agree, the axis powers in WW2 showed that it can happen, but they also showed it can’t last, as the axis powers eventually betrayed each other.

Fun fact: The National Socialists did not see the Japanese as inferior race, in fact Hitler himself was an admirer of both the japanese and the chinese culture, regarding them as equal to the “arians”. He had no intentions of betraying them. Likewise the Japanese would probably not have betrayed their allies, as that would have been against their military honor. And both nations were in no fashion to loose an ally. It’s almost funny how the Japanese were disgusted by the Holocaust (rightfully so of course), while the Germans were disgusted of the treatment the Chinese got during the war (rather understandably). However there was a mutual pact of silence about the war crimes the partner committed.

I guess with betraying you ment Italy? Though they rather surrendered, I wouldn’t call that betrayel.

Anyway, I haven’t played much of Gathering Storm yet, so I’m not sure if the Dredge or Flame Legion guys have some lines, but from what I know now, the Molten Alliance seems kind of random to me. Yes they have both been beaten by the same group of heroes, but do they really share common goals? World domination sure, but I can hardly see them sharing that.
Well maybe part 3 will give some more details.

Conncept.7638:

For anybody who hasn’t seen it yet: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/march-2013/

Yes, I just read this.

I am a person raised to use proper English in the home, as well as in public, however, there is only one thing I have to say concerning the direction of the Living Story plot -

ANet… WTF!?

I have been playing Guild Wars since its release in 2005. Never has there been such… OVERKILL… as ANet is dumping, yes, DUMPING, upon the heads of players.

Is it not enough that there are Dredge, Flame Legion, Nightmare Court, Sons of Svairn, and the Inquest, PLUS the Dragons’ champions and the Risen, the Karka fiasco, and various dungeons… you feel compelled to inflict MORE chaos on players? PLEASE, I beseech you, let us completely rid Tyria of SOMETHING before shackling players with bigger and badder foes.

There is more than killing which makes a good game. Unfortunately, Anet game designers seem to have forgotten that. You make me appreciate EA’s Sims series.

Thank you.

Conncept.7638:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Flame Legion aren’t xenophobic. They’re oppressors and conquerors.

That is not true, the Flame Legion believe themselves to be chosen, set above the remainder of the legions, and all other peoples, by the Gods. This can even be seen within the flame legion, where the Shaman caste is considered the closest to the gods, and females are considered to be the furthest away, and as a result the Shamans rule and the females are fit for nothing but breeding and slavery. I suppose xenophobic isn’t correct as they believe themselves superior because of their religion more than their race, but either way they would never consider the Dredge to be their equals.

You got something backwards. To the Flame Legion, gods are merely a tool – a means to help them conquer and oppress others. When the humans beat the charr back with the help of the Six Gods, the Flame Legion thought that they needed a god or gods of their own to fight back and stand a chance. At first they sought to find one, then they sought to make one.

Females were outcasted because Balthea Havokbringer went and formed an underground revolt against the Shaman Caste, and they banned females to prevent such happening again.

I never said they’d consider dredge their equals, btw. But the Flame Legion don’t consider themselves the top dog – which xenophobic races would – instead they want to become the top dog. Or cat in this case.

Conncept.7638:

I’m hoping it will be explained, but as of yet nothing has really indicates that it will be.

Because we’ve only gotten the preludes. You don’t reveal much in mere preludes.

BCPrhys.7230:

There is more than killing which makes a good game. Unfortunately, Anet game designers seem to have forgotten that.

Anet does have a habit of not killing off foes, don’t they?

I think the only enemy they ever permanently killed off was the Stone Summit and Abaddon.

To be fair Konig, Anet had originally planned for Mursaat to be wiped out. It was only after an outcry from the Player base that they went about writing them as ‘maybe not completely dead’.

I’d also be curious if there are Titans left. If the Foundry of Failed Creations is under Kormir’s control, logically that’d mean souls are likely no longer being tortured into the demonic abominations. However with no idea of what the situation is in that part of Hades, there’s no real means of knowing that one for certain unless one of the friendly folk from the Lore department decide to weigh in.

I am more interested in how they got their warp portals.

I also don’t think the alliance benefited them without some other things going on. They are not attacking the same enemy. The are merely sharing enemies now. I don’t see how the alliance really helped them.

They are now fighting enemies they are familiar with using new methods that their enemies are unfamiliar with. Not just the methods of their new allies but the methods of their combined might. Strength, technology and magic.

Except they are still fighting independently with the same tactics and equipment. No flame legion with dredge weapons or dredge with flame effigies have yet appear. At this point their element of surprise is all but gone.

they don’t need to produce hybrids to hold the advantage. they still have a force that was previously holding it’s own against it’s enemies. supplemented with methods their enemies aren’t used to seeing from them.

@Ratphink: True on the mursaat bit. On the titan bit: The Foundry of Failed Creations wasn’t their sole place of making. Based on their description, that they’re formed from tortured spirits, they could be made anywhere. It’s just that the Fury focused on making them in the Foundry of Failed Creations – reason being is that they knew that the Door of Komalie would open up, and the Fury was intending to send an army through there. Thankfully it closed quickly, reason unknown to them (but not us).

@FateOmega: Those portals are of Flame Legion design. They were always in the game – the way into the Font of Rand mini-dungeon is via one such portal, in fact.

Also, there are Flame Legion with dredge equipment coming through those portals. Its not obvious, since its currently only armor, but there are some there. I’m sure in phase 3 we’ll be seeing more obviousness of shared tech and magic – who’s wanting to see a dredge that went through the Flame Shaman rituals thus becoming a fiery dredge?

Let’s allow the plot actually unfold before we start complaining about plot holes, shall we? There may be room to criticise some day, but ANet hasn’t revealed their whole hand yet.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because we’ve only gotten the preludes. You don’t reveal much in mere preludes.

This is the third installment of a four part series. If we’ve only gotten the preludes, that means the entire first half of this Living Story was all prelude. So… I don’t know about ‘plot’, but there sure is a lot of ‘hole’ in this story. :-o

I think it has something to do with the events of SE Exp and CoF Exp. Both shattered former leaderships, and in the case of the dredge freed and saved otherwise doomed individuals. The Dredge would have to look at outsiders differently after that(considering how the outsiders saved them) and the Flame Legion might be pulling a Taliban and trying to act a bit nicer to would-be allies to gain support in their endeavors.

Still, it sounds to me like the Flame Legion is using them. It’s in their nature.

I haven’t even tried to participate in this new content because the karka one was so buggy I just gave up on new stuff.

From what I gather this is not a plot hole as I’ve yet to see a full plot. Two groups working together spawning portals around doesn’t seem like it’s to further an end.

On the topic of portals is the alliance limited in where they can teleport to, because I wonder why they don’t just put a portal in the black citadel’s ammo room and just throw some fire in or something. There has to be something keeping them out right?

Also I see no reason why the flame legion can’t work with others, while fanatical they always trying to futher their goals or keep followers under their control. For all I know the flame legion could have the upper hand.

However if this alliance is on even ground I don’t understand what the dredge want that they need the flame legion for. They can tunnel everywhere I don’t get why they don’t just dig a giant chasm under hoelbrak or something and sink it. What do they want on the surface, they’re moles!

I don’t get whats keeping both these groups from doing whatever they want.

Tachenon.5270:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because we’ve only gotten the preludes. You don’t reveal much in mere preludes.

This is the third installment of a four part series. If we’ve only gotten the preludes, that means the entire first half of this Living Story was all prelude. So… I don’t know about ‘plot’, but there sure is a lot of ‘hole’ in this story. :-o

No, this is the second installment, the third installment comes at the end of March. We’re still easily in the first half of the story.

Narcemus.1348:

Tachenon.5270:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because we’ve only gotten the preludes. You don’t reveal much in mere preludes.

This is the third installment of a four part series. If we’ve only gotten the preludes, that means the entire first half of this Living Story was all prelude. So… I don’t know about ‘plot’, but there sure is a lot of ‘hole’ in this story. :-o

No, this is the second installment, the third installment comes at the end of March. We’re still easily in the first half of the story.

Yes, I was referring to the third installment (The Razing) which is indeed scheduled to debut at the end of March (the 26th) and, yes, we are currently experiencing the second installment (The Coming Storm) of what we know to be a four-part series (Flame and Frost), the first two installments of which were, evidently, mere preludes (according to the poster above to whom I responded who used the word ‘preludes’ which is plural, meaning more than one, which in this context must surely refer to installments one [Prelude] and two [The Coming Storm] since those are the only installments released thus far, comprising fully half of the story) even though only the first installment (Prelude) was labeled as such.

So… I don’t know about ‘plot’, but there sure is a lot of ‘hole’ in this story. :-o

/e Granny Smith “That’s what I said.”

Tachenon.5270:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because we’ve only gotten the preludes. You don’t reveal much in mere preludes.

This is the third installment of a four part series. If we’ve only gotten the preludes, that means the entire first half of this Living Story was all prelude. So… I don’t know about ‘plot’, but there sure is a lot of ‘hole’ in this story. :-o

Well, if you want to get technical, January was the prelude. February was the beginning, and usually in the beginnings not much is revealed in any story – you just have the surface face of the threat and the damage done. The second part usually deals with beginning to fight back, and the third usually deals with the source of the issue.

In other words, in any other story the point of the plot where we are at with Flame and Frost would usually only introduce the threat, protagonist, and victims. Which is what we have with Flame and Frost.

So rather than half of the story, it’s more of a third of it.

WonderfulCT.6278:

I haven’t even tried to participate in this new content because the karka one was so buggy I just gave up on new stuff.

The karka stuff was buggy because it was over the course of a week, and you had hundreds of folks per server spamming through the stuff, causing them to break.

With content spread over a month per phase, you get less folks rushing (be they like me and like to take their time, or like you and back off due to bad past experiences despite Anet having learned (somewhat) from those said.