Guild Wars 2

I’m probably living in the past or missed a reference somewhere or something, but I just feel like the GW1 player character gets any recognition at all.

First of all in GW Nightfall the player does all the work and for some reason (not one I’m very fond of : P) Kormir becomes a god instead of the player. She honestly didn’t do very much and by the end of the game the player can have the same rank as her (via titles) yet she is worshipped like she actually at some point in her life helped someone. My character can wear a blindfold too and I get no sympathy for the lack of vision. I’m heartless I know.

With the other Gods there are actually stories of them doing things like helping people, tricking people, killing people. As a god Kormir did nothing and as a human she did less. Yet she is worshipped and the player just died or something idk maybe they will add more content to GW1.

Furthermore Ogden Stonehealer the only normal dwarf (as far as I can tell) to not have undergone the process of becoming stone is just randomly stone. I read on the wiki that the dwarves made this essential for all dwarves to undergo the process but why? Even if they tried to force him couldn’t the player just stop them and even kill them if necessary as the Great Destroyer was dead (with Ogden’s help who wasn’t stone at the time) so they no longer had any function. Ogden could have just went home back to his family continued his race but nope.

Back to nightfall again why is Palawa Joko even ruling Elona the player could have put him back into the ground as soon as Abbadon was defeated but once again nope. Where did the player go? Did Joko just kill all the wurms or something?

Also why so much follow up to the characters from eotn with statues and references but none to that random dancing fool with a mini fungal wallow who killed the lich atop the bloodstone, beat impossible odds, then beat them both simutaneously (separately if doing bonus : P) and a god? Again I’m probably missing a reference somewhere as I can’t remember seeing any.

Oh yay, more Kormir hate… She did plenty, but the player couldn’t be a god for mechanic, lore, and so forth reasons. I’m sure if Nightfall was a novel or movie or something less “you, the player, is the hero”-ish of a medium, folks wouldn’t hold one bit of disdain for Kormir (for becoming a god that is). Also, titles were not lore so no you never had the same rank as Kormir (tbh, that was a very weird thing Anet did…).

Ogden wasn’t the only dwarf to not undergo the Rite of the Great Dwarf right away (Alkar you see as flesh after the initial Rite; as well as all those Stone Summit within Slavers’ Exile), however, every single dwarf eventually did – and within 50 years to boot. All dwarves were magically compelled to undergo the rite (before doing so, though, the Stone Summit made peace with the Deldrimor dwarves again – since they sensed the end of their age coming with the upcoming need to undergo said Rite). Since this was well after the Great Dwarf’s death, the GW1 PC was likely not nearby. And it wasn’t forced – even Ogden said he would eventually, just not yet.

Joko’s ruling because the players didn’t (though he was playing a goodie-goodie for a while except when Thorn was involved). End of story. If you actually paid attention, the PC kittens a lot of kitten up – from the very beginning to the very end, be it letting Rurik die (thus pushing Adelbern further over the edge of insanity that led to the Foefire), only killing the White Mantle’s leadership and leaving it alone for 7 years, unleashing the Titans (though admittedly they fixed that), disappearing after Shiro’s death and doing nothing about the Afflicted, Kurzick/Luxon war re-igniting, or Togo’s death for 7 years again, unleashing Joko and doing nothing about him, unleashing Dhuum (all those trips to the Underworld also caused the Godslost Swamp situation too), letting the White Mantle live after the War in Kryta, and lastly letting Ashu – a young brainwashed kid – lead a fanatic oppressive regime. In the end, you got to realize: our characters were dumb as kitten. Or had no sense of “long term goals.”

And that is probably why they’re forgotten in being mentioned by the game. Over half of today’s problems were caused by them! Even the centaur war is due to the PCs (the Modniir are waging war of vengeance for their tribe being nearly wiped out during GW1).

And besides, who would want to write epic tales about the fool dancing with a mini fungal wallow? Clearly that “hero” got hit in the head a few too many times. :P

Short answer? No referencing them because it’s not expected for everyone who plays this game played the first game. Which is one reason why the Hall of Monument rewards are mostly cosmetic-only.

Longer answer? It’s really hard to create one unified character to represent the thousands or more player characters which existed. Add in that not everyone who played GW1 did all the content together. Some only did Nightfall, some skipped it, some didn’t do anything but Prophecies . . .

Really hard to deal with that from a writing standpoint, let alone logistical one. Look how Knights of the Old Republic 2 got forced to deal with it. Or the Fable series. These are two off the top of my head which got around the idea of not knowing what entirely happened in the original game. I’m sure others exist.

This is a little sloppy and rambling but really it boils down to:

“The writers decided it would be easier for them to be less visible than characters who had a specific historical slot written for them.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Oh yay, more Kormir hate… She did plenty, but the player couldn’t be a god for mechanic, lore, and so forth reasons. I’m sure if Nightfall was a novel or movie or something less “you, the player, is the hero”-ish of a medium, folks wouldn’t hold one bit of disdain for Kormir (for becoming a god that is). Also, titles were not lore so no you never had the same rank as Kormir (tbh, that was a very weird thing Anet did…).

Ogden wasn’t the only dwarf to not undergo the Rite of the Great Dwarf right away (Alkar you see as flesh after the initial Rite; as well as all those Stone Summit within Slavers’ Exile), however, every single dwarf eventually did – and within 50 years to boot. All dwarves were magically compelled to undergo the rite (before doing so, though, the Stone Summit made peace with the Deldrimor dwarves again – since they sensed the end of their age coming with the upcoming need to undergo said Rite). Since this was well after the Great Dwarf’s death, the GW1 PC was likely not nearby. And it wasn’t forced – even Ogden said he would eventually, just not yet.

Joko’s ruling because the players didn’t (though he was playing a goodie-goodie for a while except when Thorn was involved). End of story. If you actually paid attention, the PC kittens a lot of kitten up – from the very beginning to the very end, be it letting Rurik die (thus pushing Adelbern further over the edge of insanity that led to the Foefire), only killing the White Mantle’s leadership and leaving it alone for 7 years, unleashing the Titans (though admittedly they fixed that), disappearing after Shiro’s death and doing nothing about the Afflicted, Kurzick/Luxon war re-igniting, or Togo’s death for 7 years again, unleashing Joko and doing nothing about him, unleashing Dhuum (all those trips to the Underworld also caused the Godslost Swamp situation too), letting the White Mantle live after the War in Kryta, and lastly letting Ashu – a young brainwashed kid – lead a fanatic oppressive regime. In the end, you got to realize: our characters were dumb as kitten. Or had no sense of “long term goals.”

And that is probably why they’re forgotten in being mentioned by the game. Over half of today’s problems were caused by them! Even the centaur war is due to the PCs (the Modniir are waging war of vengeance for their tribe being nearly wiped out during GW1).

And besides, who would want to write epic tales about the fool dancing with a mini fungal wallow? Clearly that “hero” got hit in the head a few too many times. :P

I don’t hate Kormir its just that the way the story proceeded (imo) the gods could have chosen anyone to become the next god. The gods could have given the power to a rock, the player could have thrown it into Abaddon’s power after he was killed and it takeover instead. It would have done the same amount of work she did as a god. None! I’m not really serious about her having done no work just that she didn’t do very much to aid the player beyond shout “incoming”.

The dwarf thing doesn’t make much sense to me. I assume you have a source so I won’t ask although I can’t see any logical reason why the dwarves would choose to become stone. It just feels like the race was killed off unnaturally (intentionally by themselves) when they could easily continue on just as before.

The player messes a lot of stuff up but the character never stays dead in GW1 so without an explanation I feel like I they should easily have just gone and defeated Joko before any of his evils unfolded.

Theres no logic behind unleashing Dhuum as the player puts him to sleep when they do so idk what you mean by that. Dhuum currently rising would be unrelated to GW1.

As the player clearly cuts off a few loose ends stopping the mantle in WiK (The white mantle in GW2 are a joke so as far as I can tell letting then live caused no problems so far.) and afflicted/GW2 Mesmer thing in WoC I think it’s safe to assume the player was trying to fix its mistakes. Also I doubt vanquishing counts as lore but the player actually kills all the white mantle, afflicted and Joko’s minions, also centaurs would be extinct along with the iron summit.

Appreciate the response even though we often have different views.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Short answer? No referencing them because it’s not expected for everyone who plays this game played the first game. Which is one reason why the Hall of Monument rewards are mostly cosmetic-only.

Longer answer? It’s really hard to create one unified character to represent the thousands or more player characters which existed. Add in that not everyone who played GW1 did all the content together. Some only did Nightfall, some skipped it, some didn’t do anything but Prophecies . . .

Really hard to deal with that from a writing standpoint, let alone logistical one. Look how Knights of the Old Republic 2 got forced to deal with it. Or the Fable series. These are two off the top of my head which got around the idea of not knowing what entirely happened in the original game. I’m sure others exist.

This is a little sloppy and rambling but really it boils down to:

“The writers decided it would be easier for them to be less visible than characters who had a specific historical slot written for them.”

I figured as much when I started this thread. So I guess there isn’t any references then which is fine just wish they would have killed off the GW1 character to stop all the loose ends.

WonderfulCT.6278:

I figured as much when I started this thread. So I guess there isn’t any references then which is fine just wish they would have killed off the GW1 character to stop all the loose ends.

They did . . . rather, time did. There are about three to five generations worth of time between then and now

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

WonderfulCT.6278:

I figured as much when I started this thread. So I guess there isn’t any references then which is fine just wish they would have killed off the GW1 character to stop all the loose ends.

They did . . . rather, time did. There are about three to five generations worth of time between then and now

Not what I meant, I meant in the actual game in a way that would prevent the person from preventing certain present plot points in GW2.

I’m just too easily bothered by potential plot holes, it’s not a good trait to have especially when watching movies.

. . . yes. Yes I understand. You know what’s worse than noticing those things? Reading TvTropes and thus knowing the tropes in action before they pay off. Or having a friend who proceeded to explain something to you from his perspective about how . . .

. . . say, Adelbern really did more good for the charr than he did for the humans. By being completely focused on beating them (something he could no longer do) and alienating or otherwise destroying morale of all but the fanatics, he made Ascalon even weaker than the Searing managed to. So, really, he is the reason he lost Ascalon more than the Charr.

There are conversations like that, but over various topics which once you get told . . . you unfortunately will have sticking in the back of your mind. There are reasons people I ran into sometimes in PreSearing would talk about how they should just kidnap Gwen and throw her in a basement to keep her safe that day.

I fully agree with your very first sentence op. But then you start with the Kormir hate, which I don’t get. I’ll just copy what I said in another thread about her (while comparing her to Trahearne aka Salad Head)

“What’s up with the hate for Kormir? I understand that people are annoyed by the fact that she became a god, but honestly, she was the only choice. It couldn’t be the player, nor any of his heroes. It had to be her.
Also, unlike Trahearne, Kormir was a great leader. She never took credit for the things the player has done, it felt believable that she had allies that would join her cause, since unlike Trahearne she wasn’t a shy scholar, but a experienced soldier. And even then, she had to convince everyone to go to war with Kourna, unlike Trahearne who is just like “You owe me one, LOL!”.
Kormir also cared for her men and she admitted mistakes she made. She blamed the lost battle in Gandara on herself, the same she did with the whole Nightfall (event, not campaign), because she woke up the Apocrypha. Compare to Trahearne, who is just emo and doesn’t think he can lead anyone into battle. He does not regret anything, in fact he never does anything wrong (in the storyline), all his decision (rather the player’s) are working out perfect. He is by defintion a Mary-Sue, while Kormir wasn’t. And yes, Kormir doesn’t help very much later on, but guess what, she is blind, because a freaking demon ate her eyes and yet she still goes on and does everything she can to support the player. You can say what you want, but that is bad*ss! She suffered, she got tortured, she blamed herself quite a lot and in the end, she deserved to become a god through all her pain. Yes the player probably deserved it as much, but again, storywise that was impossible. Compare to Trahearne, he doesn’t suffer at all, he is just wimpy and afraid to take responsibility. I’d rather follow Kormir into battle, even when she is blind, she has more of an idea what she is doing, than Trahearne ever will.”

Besides that, I agree that it’s a shame that the PC from GW1 is not referenced in any way in the lore. And don’t tell me it’s impossible because we don’t know the gender or where he comes from. I’m fine with some legends of a great hero. Just anything. The HoM is a good example on how to do such references, but it has to go further. Actual open world references. I hope we get some in new areas, like when finding the Maguuma Bloodstone, there could be the Ghost of Olias telling the story of how a great hero battled Hablion there or when we go more directly at Primordus, we read dwarven scrolls that re-tell the events of Eye of the North.
And Palawa Joko better not forgot the guy who freed him. I know he is evil and opportunistic and we kinda pranked him on Halloween, but heck, I bet deep down in his leathery mummified heart is a special place for the guy/girl who made all this conquering possible.

Get over the voices and watch the whole thing.

Plum Butter.4058:

Get over the voices and watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmkAoLC6_4

Yeah, no, that really just stretches events to make her look like an idiot. Which she wasn’t. Even if it’s accepted she is responsible (in the strictest sense), she wasn’t stupid. This isn’t the topic to handle this though.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Oh yay, more Kormir hate… She did plenty, but the player couldn’t be a god for mechanic, lore, and so forth reasons. I’m sure if Nightfall was a novel or movie or something less “you, the player, is the hero”-ish of a medium, folks wouldn’t hold one bit of disdain for Kormir (for becoming a god that is). Also, titles were not lore so no you never had the same rank as Kormir (tbh, that was a very weird thing Anet did…).

Ogden wasn’t the only dwarf to not undergo the Rite of the Great Dwarf right away (Alkar you see as flesh after the initial Rite; as well as all those Stone Summit within Slavers’ Exile), however, every single dwarf eventually did – and within 50 years to boot. All dwarves were magically compelled to undergo the rite (before doing so, though, the Stone Summit made peace with the Deldrimor dwarves again – since they sensed the end of their age coming with the upcoming need to undergo said Rite). Since this was well after the Great Dwarf’s death, the GW1 PC was likely not nearby. And it wasn’t forced – even Ogden said he would eventually, just not yet.

Joko’s ruling because the players didn’t (though he was playing a goodie-goodie for a while except when Thorn was involved). End of story. If you actually paid attention, the PC kittens a lot of kitten up – from the very beginning to the very end, be it letting Rurik die (thus pushing Adelbern further over the edge of insanity that led to the Foefire), only killing the White Mantle’s leadership and leaving it alone for 7 years, unleashing the Titans (though admittedly they fixed that), disappearing after Shiro’s death and doing nothing about the Afflicted, Kurzick/Luxon war re-igniting, or Togo’s death for 7 years again, unleashing Joko and doing nothing about him, unleashing Dhuum (all those trips to the Underworld also caused the Godslost Swamp situation too), letting the White Mantle live after the War in Kryta, and lastly letting Ashu – a young brainwashed kid – lead a fanatic oppressive regime. In the end, you got to realize: our characters were dumb as kitten. Or had no sense of “long term goals.”

And that is probably why they’re forgotten in being mentioned by the game. Over half of today’s problems were caused by them! Even the centaur war is due to the PCs (the Modniir are waging war of vengeance for their tribe being nearly wiped out during GW1).

And besides, who would want to write epic tales about the fool dancing with a mini fungal wallow? Clearly that “hero” got hit in the head a few too many times. :P

I don’t hate Kormir its just that the way the story proceeded (imo) the gods could have chosen anyone to become the next god. .

But the Gods did choose who can be become the next God. That was the powers the avatar gave to Kormir.

@BuddhaKeks The stuff about Kormir was mostly supposed to be a joke. I didn’t realize that Kormir was hated so much previously so I’m sure it came off that way. The only complaint about Kormir I have that I feel is valid is that anyone could have become a god because as a god she has done nothing. I can’t see why there was a need to create a new god if right after the gods just left Tyria. Anyone could have just left Tyria.

Also from a gameplay perspective Kormir did absolutely no work. Her spear does no damage and her shouts are only useful for speedbuffs (plus she always, always, always obstructs your path), however story wise she is very integral to the plot and overall a much better character than Traherne who is useless (but thats for another topic).

Just wanted to address that because I think that has overshadowed the actual topic a bit. The only reason I feel the player should become a god instead of Kormir is because I feel like it would have been awesome not because the player was more deserving just because it would be cool (: P).

@Acaelus Thorne I’m not sure what you’re trying to inform me of. I have beaten NF multiple times so I am aware of the story.

WonderfulCT.6278:

@BuddhaKeks The stuff about Kormir was mostly supposed to be a joke. I didn’t realize that Kormir was hated so much previously so I’m sure it came off that way. The only complaint about Kormir I have that I feel is valid is that anyone could have become a god because as a god she has done nothing. I can’t see why there was a need to create a new god if right after the gods just left Tyria. Anyone could have just left Tyria.

Also from a gameplay perspective Kormir did absolutely no work. Her spear does no damage and her shouts are only useful for speedbuffs (plus she always, always, always obstructs your path), however story wise she is very integral to the plot and overall a much better character than Traherne who is useless (but thats for another topic).

Gameplay, Kormir suffered from the problem other allied NPCs did – they were mostly ineffective except to draw fire. I’m not sure if it was an engine problem or a conscious design decision.

Storywise, I don’t think they knew yet they were going to “tone back” the presence of the Six until they actually started work on Eye of the North. Consider there were a few years between Nightfall being developed and GW2 taking serious shape.

About Trahearne . . . the only issues I have are related to the fact the personal story is so rigidly compartmentalized and he only shows up starting chapter five out of seven for most forms of the story. (Apparently, and this is hearsay in my mind since I haven’t seen it yet, if you’re a sylvari with a certain path he is introduced there.)

Due to the fact he’s introduced quickly and it’s essentially the second half of a GW1 campaign that he takes any kind of significance to the story? It doesn’t allow people to get to know him before he takes a significant secondary role in the story.

Due to direction, his voice actor says his lines a little flat compared to others; this is more a problem with sylvari than with him alone, since they almost all come off this way.

Finally, and this is probably an unpopular view, since his Wyld Hunt was to cleanse Orr and he did that he has little reason to be an impact on the story after this. Except, of course, to be an asset called upon when the Pact is needed. So, his character might not last for the effort put into establishing him as important.

My younger brother bought the “strategy guide” (AKA a waste of money) and they have pretty much a summary of the campaigns. They don’t address the hero as one person, but as a collective. In Prophecies, it is “the Ascalonians” who joined the White Mantle, ascended, and prevented the Titans from coming back.

That and I recall it beng said somewhere else in this forum, that in game that the stories related to the hero are JUST being discovered. I do also agree with Konig that in all honesty, outside of how we like to imagine our characters, the GW1 PC is really not that good with thinking long-term. A true adventurer.

Canonically, it was Aidan, Eve, Mhenlo, Devona, Cynn and the other henchmen who were involved primarily in that mess.

WonderfulCT.6278:

I don’t hate Kormir its just that the way the story proceeded (imo) the gods could have chosen anyone to become the next god.

Hardly, unless by “anyone” you mean the henchmen or other nearby NPCs (of which, all did even less). Even the heroes wouldn’t work because you’d then have a god in your party which would be constantly dying. You couldn’t be god for both lore and mechanical reasons.

WonderfulCT.6278:

It would have done the same amount of work she did as a god. None!

You know, that’s a fairly bold claim given how we don’t know what Kormir was doing in the past 250 years. I mean, other than cleaning up the Realm of Torment (we were just taking out Mallyx and his four top generals after that, but that’s not the only threats there were, and even then we didn’t wipe everything out; and let’s not forget that the Ravenheart Gloom is basically an endless battlefield with demons).

WonderfulCT.6278:

The dwarf thing doesn’t make much sense to me. I assume you have a source so I won’t ask although I can’t see any logical reason why the dwarves would choose to become stone. It just feels like the race was killed off unnaturally (intentionally by themselves) when they could easily continue on just as before.

They turned to stone because of magical compulsion drove them to – it’s not just those who underwent the Rite who’s mentality had change. The others’ were just slower. Furthermore, they knew that the destroyer threat wasn’t done for, and iirc, in the Granite Citadel it is said that the rest underwent the Rite in order to combat Primordus (meaning he had awoken by that time, or his existence was well known).

WonderfulCT.6278:

The player messes a lot of stuff up but the character never stays dead in GW1 so without an explanation I feel like I they should easily have just gone and defeated Joko before any of his evils unfolded.

You’re taking mechanics (resurrection) for lore (nothing really says that the hero died a thousand times and was always brought back; resurrection existed in lore but its qualities were unknown).

WonderfulCT.6278:

Theres no logic behind unleashing Dhuum as the player puts him to sleep when they do so idk what you mean by that. Dhuum currently rising would be unrelated to GW1.

Per the Underworld quests – subsequent years after their first year. It’s said that Dhuum is repeatedly awakening and being put back to sleep. We know that he wakes up because of deaths in the Underworld. We also know that the “assassins” (and other adventurers) raiding the Underworld’s coffers is the cause behind this. It’s always just been an inevitability that Dhuum would reawaken, but thanks to the GW1 adventurers, his awakening was hastened and subsequent reawakenings were a lot sooner than the first time.

WonderfulCT.6278:

The white mantle in GW2 are a joke so as far as I can tell letting then live caused no problems so far.

You do realize that the White Mantle in GW2 are…

• The primary if not sole leadership of the bandits, and yes they’re all united.
• Infiltrating and toying with the street gangs of Divinity’s Reach.
• Manipulating and infiltrating the Ministry.
• In an alliance with the Centaurs, Inquest, and Nightmare Court. (they provide experiment subjects for the Inquest, which gives the NC more torture, and get gold and weapons in return – the latter they subsequently give to centaurs along with human slaves in return for their safety (notice how Beetletun itself is never attacked, only the Beetletun Farms are? – guess who’s the biggest macho in cahoots with the WM we know of? Caudecus (via being in cahoots with bandits – its unknown if he knows of the WM or not))
• They’re also spreading dissent among humanity in Kryta to push more citizens into joining the bandits, and via the Ministry ties are spreading drug trade and blinding the citizens with a false comfort (the constant carnivals) despite the ever-increasing amount of poor in Divinity’s Reach caused by the centaur war.
• And they do all of this by remaining completely anonymous to the people (and even to their grunts!).

Right? That’s far from “a joke” – they’re the biggest threat in GW2 aside from the Elder Dragons because of all these connections. Yet they’re so underplayed because they’re a hidden organization that if you don’t look seriously, you’d think as you are now. The White Mantle can be blamed for just about all of Kryta’s modern problems.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Also I doubt vanquishing counts as lore

You’d be correct there – it doesn’t.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You do realize that the White Mantle in GW2 are…

• The primary if not sole leadership of the bandits, and yes they’re all united.
• Infiltrating and toying with the street gangs of Divinity’s Reach.
• Manipulating and infiltrating the Ministry.
• In an alliance with the Centaurs, Inquest, and Nightmare Court. (they provide experiment subjects for the Inquest, which gives the NC more torture, and get gold and weapons in return – the latter they subsequently give to centaurs along with human slaves in return for their safety (notice how Beetletun itself is never attacked, only the Beetletun Farms are? – guess who’s the biggest macho in cahoots with the WM we know of? Caudecus (via being in cahoots with bandits – its unknown if he knows of the WM or not))
• They’re also spreading dissent among humanity in Kryta to push more citizens into joining the bandits, and via the Ministry ties are spreading drug trade and blinding the citizens with a false comfort (the constant carnivals) despite the ever-increasing amount of poor in Divinity’s Reach caused by the centaur war.
• And they do all of this by remaining completely anonymous to the people (and even to their grunts!).

Right? That’s far from “a joke” – they’re the biggest threat in GW2 aside from the Elder Dragons because of all these connections. Yet they’re so underplayed because they’re a hidden organization that if you don’t look seriously, you’d think as you are now. The White Mantle can be blamed for just about all of Kryta’s modern problems.

It could be blamed for most of Kryta’s PAST problems too, come to think of it.

I need to figure out what storyline path takes you through what the White Mantle is up to, because mine only hinted at the fact that the bandits had higher-up connections in the city and some Ministers might be dirty. Most of what I’ve seen is just suggested by the graffiti in Beetletun and the actual amassing of bandits out in the Brisban Wilderness.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Gameplay, Kormir suffered from the problem other allied NPCs did – they were mostly ineffective except to draw fire. I’m not sure if it was an engine problem or a conscious design decision.

I think it’s both an issue of it being a game, and a design decision.

You can basically have two types of NPCs:

Those who do all the work for you, and those who do nothing. Take (what I’ve heard of) Tyrael from D3 – from what I’ve heard, he’s invulnerable so he can solo anything (even if it takes a long kitten time) – another example for those first person shooter folks: F.E.A.R. Extraction Point has a level where you have an ally (Holiday) fighting with you – he’s invincible so even on the hardest difficulty you can just save all of your ammo while he’s around and just take cover and he’ll kill everything. On the other hand, if you have an NPC that’s too strong, it’ll end up killing foes before you can (take The Priory Assailed personal story step where it seems to be bugged in the NPCs being alive rather than dead, they kill just about everything without you barely needing to lift a finger). On the other end of the spectrum, you get NPCs who die frequently (aka Prince Rurik) or those who don’t even fight and are invulnerable (aka Kormir).

It’s impossible to properly balance an ally NPC to keep it from doing too much or too little, simply because everyone’s skill in gameplay is vastly different – for those who are too good, she’d end up being worthless still. For those who suck, he’s be doing most of the work. So in the end you can either ruin someone’s gameplay experience by having the work done for you or dying all the kitten time, or you can maintain the gameplay experience but lower the story experience by having her do too little and being invulnerable.

BunnytheSwordsman.4173:

My younger brother bought the “strategy guide” (AKA a waste of money) and they have pretty much a summary of the campaigns. They don’t address the hero as one person, but as a collective. In Prophecies, it is “the Ascalonians” who joined the White Mantle, ascended, and prevented the Titans from coming back.

That and I recall it beng said somewhere else in this forum, that in game that the stories related to the hero are JUST being discovered.

Don’t trust that lore section! There’s a lot of wrong information – from names being mispelled (Usoka iirc, instead of Usoku – for instance), information that came from no where, and misinterpretations or even getting order of events completely wrong (it says that that Rurik left for Kryta and then the charr invaded Orr and Kryta… despite the Cataclysm happening a full year before, and the Kryta invasion happening long enough before for the White Mantle to have gotten a grip on Kryta).

I’ve tried bringing up the unknown information with Anet, but got no response when Stephane said he’d pass the questions along to the lore folks.

Though on the subject of multiple heroes – the Young Heroes of Tyria storybook from GW1 also indicates such. I suspect there were three “nameless heroes” of GW1 – one per campaign (the EotN, WiK, and HotN one being the Prophecies fella, and the WoC being the Factions one; of course, the Prophecies and Factions hero could have aided in Factions/Nightfall and Nightfall respectively, and the Factions and NF hero aiding in EotN).

(more in next post)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I need to figure out what storyline path takes you through what the White Mantle is up to, because mine only hinted at the fact that the bandits had higher-up connections in the city and some Ministers might be dirty. Most of what I’ve seen is just suggested by the graffiti in Beetletun and the actual amassing of bandits out in the Brisban Wilderness.

sigh wrote up a response and hit over the 5k limit so it was deleted in editing…

Just about all of them.

• Noble and Dead Sister, and somewhat Commoner, shows a tie between Ministry and Bandits (including outright calling on Caudecus).
• Subtle, but Street Rat shows ties between DR’s gangs and bandits.
• Circus – especially with any asura lvl 2 story and Caudecus Manor dungeon – shows the relations between WM/Bandits and Separatists, and between the Circus (owned by Caudecus) and Inquest.
• Lost Parents outright shows the White Mantle backing the Bandits.

Then you get more stuff from Caudecus’ Manor, Kessex Hills, Brisban Wildlands, and Harathi Hinterlands. Most of the things shown aren’t really obvious until you connect the dots and experience many of these things. For instance, you wouldn’t really notice t he significance of the Inquest in the asura story mentioning the Floating Grizwhirl and how it “works well on lesser minds, like humans” without doing the Circus storyline. Similarly, you wouldn’t understand the significance of the placement of a bandit camp right outside Uzolan’s Workshop without doing some of the human stories (including Lost Parent which outright shows that to be a WM-backed base) or CM dungeon.

But if you observe all human level 1-20 storylines, every path in Caudecus’ Manor (story and explorable), as well as most hearts/events/NPC dialogue in Brisban, Kessex, Queensdale, and Harathi Hinterlands, and take note of personal storyline placements, then you’d see all that I pointed out.

The Order of Whispers level 30-40 and the chosing Benn Tennstrikes as an ally in retaking Claw Island also expands on this a bit (bandit models are used as “mercenary” guards in Beetletun in the latter; in the former you get a very corrupt Ministry Guard group, never-mentioned information Demmi (Caudecus’ daughter) has on him and the extents he’d go to in order to keep her silent (tracing magic on her mother’s amulet, and giving the Ministry Guard liability of killing his only daughter if she can’t be captured), as well as an internal threat of transference to a mine… which is centaur controlled).

So this thread has seemingly gone off in the wrong direction again so I’ll simplify it.

Is there any GW1 references regarding the player from GW1? (I’m pretty sure this is a no)

Is there some reason why the GW1 character did not prevent events within their control from unfolding?

Did the GW1 character at some point (not through aging) die?

Why has A-Net not simply published something definitive about all the events of GW1?

1. Already answered. None that’s been found. Closest possibility would be an idle chat near the Plaza of Kormir’s northern lower side, which mentions a scroll about (never named) Ascalonian heroes who did all the Prophecies stuff.
2. No. As shown, they made a lot of mistakes.
3. This is left open because it’s a roleplaying game – you decide what happened to your characters. Its “your story” after all.
4. Because it would ruin point number 3, which is the very premise behind all RPGs, and thus is a huge “no-no” for games such as Guild Wars/Guild Wars 2.

Sorry I let this get a bit off track as far as with the talk about the Mantle. I’ll reply to that if there’s a thread started about it there.

Some other things:

Re #2: I’d say anything that they could have prevented, they did. If it happened, they couldn’t prevent it due to being somewhere else or doing something else. Much like anyone else they can only realistically do so much before sheer volume overtakes them. Especially when you’re talking of three continents and the Far North.

Re #3: Technically, they died, at least once within the Factions storyline. It’s just the Envoys decided you were needed alive so they undid that whole messy “death” thing.

Re #4: I recall hearing that things were generally written that Ascalon’s Chosen (Devona et al) stood in for the PC anywhere they could when needing to determine what happened if the PC hadn’t been there. I’m not sure how official it is, mostly because I totally don’t remember where I heard it and when. Forum is the most likely bet, which means it’s 90% possibly something someone made up.

While I understand how from mechanics perspective stuff like adquiring godpowers isn’t possible (but that doesn’t stop me from still calling the human gods “the five” simply because how much I disliked Kormir in general) I think something like what Elder Scroll games do, mentioning a “hero” or “Nerevarine” doing this or that and us knowing WE did it just with that general name reference at some points in the game, would be cool. Like for example when/if we access the ring of fire again, some cinematic telling us what happened there, and us knowing they’re talking about our gw1 characters.

There is still a major difference between Elder Scrolls and Guild Wars – ES is single player. So they can easily say there was one hero. However, GW being a multiplayer game means that either you’re saying there were many never-named heroes (thus for those who had one character for “the hero” then you’re basically slapping them in the face), or there was only one nameless hero (which would then be a slap in the face to those who made their character stories in that there were many; and similarly would be acting as if all those hundreds of thousands of adventurers passed by in GW1 (aka all the other players) didn’t exist or didn’t do didly squat).

Besides this, if GW actually gave a lore title to the hero, then it may be possible. But they didn’t so…

GW2 fixed that – you’re the Commander, and later referred once as the Dragonslayer (by some norn). The latter title may keep in expansions, if not both. And similarly, they already show off that there’s multiple heroes and can easily get away with it because the events of multiple lvl 1-10 and 10-20 storylines occur no matter what (Statics and Infinity Ball do for asura, for instance, as does Green Huntsman, Act with Wisdom, and the lvl 20-30 storyline for sylvari as another example). Meaning there’s at least one hero per major race.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Re #4: I recall hearing that things were generally written that Ascalon’s Chosen (Devona et al) stood in for the PC anywhere they could when needing to determine what happened if the PC hadn’t been there. I’m not sure how official it is, mostly because I totally don’t remember where I heard it and when. Forum is the most likely bet, which means it’s 90% possibly something someone made up.

You’re probably referring to the pre-Prophecies release of the Stories. Because that’s the one and only case I can think of where Devona and co. “stood in” for the PC in anywhere in canon lore.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You do realize that the White Mantle in GW2 are…

• The primary if not sole leadership of the bandits, and yes they’re all united.

I would really like to have an ingame quote where this is undoubtly said. Until I see one, I’m going to assume that this is speculation on your part.

@Lokheit: This is exactly what I said, however I think it’s still possible to give the PC such a title retroactively. By naming the Prophecies heroes “The Ascalonians”, the Factions heroes are “Master Togo’s pupil” and the Nightfall heroes are “The Sunspears” for example. Pretty much how it is done in the GW1 ingame books. We just assume the mentioned group are the leaders, while the others tag along, depending on how far they are into the overall storyline.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

@Lokheit: This is exactly what I said, however I think it’s still possible to give the PC such a title retroactively. By naming the Prophecies heroes “The Ascalonians”, the Factions heroes are “Master Togo’s pupil” and the Nightfall heroes are “The Sunspears” for example. Pretty much how it is done in the GW1 ingame books. We just assume the mentioned group are the leaders, while the others tag along, depending on how far they are into the overall storyline.

Actually, Prophecies heroes would more be “The Chosen who Ascended” since that’s what defined them. There were plenty of Ascalonians who weren’t the main focus of the story and other campaigns start up inside Kryta with the White Mantle material. There were also many Chosen who . . . got a bad end. The key detail is that the hero(es) who fought through the last third of the Prophecies campaign were Ascended, met with Glint, and the instrument of fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophecies.

(Though they were not the Flameseeker, that was Vizier Khilbron.)

Well the Canthan heroes are ascended too (and the Elonians, but they never made a fuzz about it :P), so the theme of ascension is common for the heroes, but I guess your right “the Ascended” is maybe more precise than “the Ascalonians”.

The Canthans are “Weh No Su”, not Ascended (it merely counts for it) and the Elonians never Ascended. Turai Ossa led the best people he could find north to try it and failed miserably. There’s no analogue for Ascension in Nightfall like there was in Cantha, the only thing there is is when your character pulls the remnants of the Sunspears together and goes “okay, now we can stop running and fight back”.

. . . then leaves Lonai in charge of the administration.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

the only thing there is is when your character pulls the remnants of the Sunspears together and goes “okay, now we can stop running and fight back”.

I was refering to that, because mechanics wise it is an ascension, lore wise probably not (therefore the line “they don’t make a fuzz about it”). Also the canthan version has a different name and a different ritual, but it’s still pretty much the same thing.

Just looking at the gameplay none of this is true yet all of it is true as a character from any campaign is still able to complete all 3 plus the expansion so theorectically the canthans (assassins forever : P) could be the ones who did all of it.

Again looking at the gameplay since you guys want to talk about the mantle the reason I said they are a joke is cause in the personal story they are the weakest enemies I’ve ever fought. Four warriors and one mes could literally kill thousands of them if they’re just regular enemies so they’re a joke.

Still can’t edit on the forums for some reason, not sure why this keeps happening.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You do realize that the White Mantle in GW2 are…

• The primary if not sole leadership of the bandits, and yes they’re all united.

I would really like to have an ingame quote where this is undoubtly said. Until I see one, I’m going to assume that this is speculation on your part.

Which part – White Mantle are leaders of the bandits, or that the bandits are all united?

Former comes from Unknown Parents storyline – second step’s story summary, to be precise.

_"Apparently, the White Mantle is hiding behind bandit activities. They incite the impoverished citizens of Kryta, and use them to act against the Queen’s servants.

[…]we created a plan of attack against these bandits and their cult."_

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_the_Mantle

There are also bandits (outright named) in that storyline, as well as all non-unique White Mantle using bandit models, and one of their bases being a bandit camp in Kessex Hills – per Drawing Out the Cult, which also has this as the main objective: “Attack the cultist-led bandit camp and defeat the White Mantle. "

The latter can be determined by an emblem seen in almost every bandit hideout – including but not limited to: the two in Queensdale, Fort Vandal, at least two or three in Harathi Hinterlands, and iirc, one in Kessex Hills. Furthermore, we know all in Kessex Hills are united, and with those in Harathi, due to the alliance with the centaurs; similarly, we know all those in Brisban Wildlands are united due to the alliance with the Inquest/Nightmare Court. This together shows all bandits are united.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The Canthans are “Weh No Su”, not Ascended (it merely counts for it) and the Elonians never Ascended.

ahem

“Chanang became one of the first Canthan heroes to become Closer to the Stars (what in Tyria is referred to as “ascension”)"

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

Weh no Su is the same thing as Ascension. You just do different things to become such.

Though storyline wise, yes, Elonians never become Ascended – Anet got tired of doing that whole bit in their storyline somehow.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Again looking at the gameplay since you guys want to talk about the mantle the reason I said they are a joke is cause in the personal story they are the weakest enemies I’ve ever fought. Four warriors and one mes could literally kill thousands of them if they’re just regular enemies so they’re a joke.

All enemies in the personal storyline are a joke, because they’re balanced for a single player. Go in with 2 players and the toughest boss in the personal storyline – the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan – is a kitten joke. So is Blightghast the Plaguebringer.

So that’s not saying much at all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You do realize that the White Mantle in GW2 are…

• The primary if not sole leadership of the bandits, and yes they’re all united.

I would really like to have an ingame quote where this is undoubtly said. Until I see one, I’m going to assume that this is speculation on your part.

Which part – White Mantle are leaders of the bandits, or that the bandits are all united?

Former comes from Unknown Parents storyline – second step’s story summary, to be precise.

_"Apparently, the White Mantle is hiding behind bandit activities. They incite the impoverished citizens of Kryta, and use them to act against the Queen’s servants.

[…]we created a plan of attack against these bandits and their cult."_

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_the_Mantle

There are also bandits (outright named) in that storyline, as well as all non-unique White Mantle using bandit models, and one of their bases being a bandit camp in Kessex Hills – per Drawing Out the Cult, which also has this as the main objective: “Attack the cultist-led bandit camp and defeat the White Mantle. "

The latter can be determined by an emblem seen in almost every bandit hideout – including but not limited to: the two in Queensdale, Fort Vandal, at least two or three in Harathi Hinterlands, and iirc, one in Kessex Hills. Furthermore, we know all in Kessex Hills are united, and with those in Harathi, due to the alliance with the centaurs; similarly, we know all those in Brisban Wildlands are united due to the alliance with the Inquest/Nightmare Court. This together shows all bandits are united.

It shows that a good portion of the bandits are united, but all? Nope. The ones in the Harathi Hinterlands for example, okay they are all allied with the centaurs, but that doesn’t mean they are all united with each other. The same with the bandits in Brisban, where does it say that every single camp has an alliance with the Inquest and NC? We only see a few of them actually working with the other groups, the rest is pretty solitary.
It’s not impossible that they are all united, but it actually doesn’t make all that much sense. That’s like saying every single biker gang in america is secretly working for a cult of satanists. Why would they all unite, if they are clearly anarchists? Being organized and controlled by someone else is pretty much the opposite of what they want. I can understand that some are in for the money, but all of them? I don’t think so.

You clearly missed part of what I said.

The bandits in Harathi Hinterlands have the same emblem as those in Queensdale and Brisban Wildlands. Both the Harathi Hinterlands and the Kessex Hills bandits hold the same alliances. As does the Kessex Hills and Queensdale bandits. Every Harathi Hinterlands camp has this emblem, as does both Queensdale camps, and Fort Vandal – this shows a unity among these right off the bat.

For reference, the emblem I’m referring to is this one:

[img]http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/12/Bandit_emblem.jpg[/img]

(Hmm, seems image encoding’s not working for me.)

As for the Brisban Wildland bandits – aside from above emblem being on flags around Fort Vandal, every bandit camp has a “kill the leader” event where half of said events deal with the bandits negotiating with Inquest, and almost every camp – if not every – has Inquest-related devices in the camp (if not always, then during said kill the leader events). Every. Single. Camp. And the entire premise behind the bandits in Brisban Wildlands is that both their appearance is considered unusual, the Seraph are looking for the White Mantle, and the bandits are uniting with the Inquest and Nightmare Court.

In fact, no where is it ever even implied that the bandits are not united.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Why would they all unite, if they are clearly anarchists? Being organized and controlled by someone else is pretty much the opposite of what they want.

Shows how manipulative the White Mantle have grown to be. Or actually, how they’ve always been. I mean, they killed thousands in two years and managed to convince an entire nation that those thousands were just training under possibly non-existent “Grand Masters.”

Well okay, I only knew of one such event in Brisban, my bad then. However, the usage of one symbol does not indicate they are united. Just look at A with the circle around, which is internationally accepted as a sign for anarchists, but it does not mean they are united.
So the symbol could just mean: “We are bandits. We fight the power!” Besides that, there is a difference between White Mantle then and now. Then they were the ruling power of a whole nation. They could make people believe what they wanted them to believe (pretty easy in an age without mass-communication like phones, tv or the internet). Now they are just some guys hiding in the jungle having to rely on others to do their dirty work. And when they finally come out to do something themself they fail miserably. I’m not too impressed by them so far. If not for the dragons and the centaur war, I’m pretty sure they would have been wiped out already.

That symbol is extremely unique and used solely by the Krytan bandits – if it was a universal banditry symbol, there’d probably be some where you can find pirates, looters, and so forth whom are not only multi-racial but multi-national. The unlikelihood of it being a unique symbol is doubled when you compare it to the old White Mantle emblem, and given the fact that the emblem is almost always (read: one exception – Fort Vandal flags) white (side note: said flags are the sole case of the emblem not being painted on wood or rocks in a rather obvious-yet-obscure place near the camps).

“Now they are just some guys hiding in the jungle having to rely on others to do their dirty work. And when they finally come out to do something themself they fail miserably.”

First point depends on if figures like Caudecus or Two-Blade Pete are part of the White Mantle or are just their cronies. It’s heavily implied to be the former, to which you can then say that the White Mantle themselves are the leaders and do indeed go out in the field, but they’re not the majority of the bandits.

Second point is because the only time you see the White Mantle proclaiming they’re the White Mantle is when they’re targeting you, the player character, which of course wtfpwns every living thing that comes after you – be they skale or drake broodmothers or the Elder Dragons’ fiercest and strongest champions. That’s not a fair assessment.

Side note: Kryta has actually put little effort in fighting Elder Dragons (the destroyers in Kessex and the Risen in all of Kryta are a relatively new situation – and by relatively new, I mean weeks old as of the PC’s arrival in the areas at most), and the centaur war is relatively recent (within a generation). That’s roughly 200-230 years in which the White Mantle survived without Kryta having military focused elsewhere, with the exception of when Zhaitan rose which would have simply occupied them for a good 10-20 years give or take (Divinity’s Reach was established a year after Zhaitan’s rise).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That symbol is extremely unique and used solely by the Krytan bandits – if it was a universal banditry symbol, there’d probably be some where you can find pirates, looters, and so forth whom are not only multi-racial but multi-national. The unlikelihood of it being a unique symbol is doubled when you compare it to the old White Mantle emblem, and given the fact that the emblem is almost always (read: one exception – Fort Vandal flags) white (side note: said flags are the sole case of the emblem not being painted on wood or rocks in a rather obvious-yet-obscure place near the camps).

“Now they are just some guys hiding in the jungle having to rely on others to do their dirty work. And when they finally come out to do something themself they fail miserably.”

First point depends on if figures like Caudecus or Two-Blade Pete are part of the White Mantle or are just their cronies. It’s heavily implied to be the former, to which you can then say that the White Mantle themselves are the leaders and do indeed go out in the field, but they’re not the majority of the bandits.

Second point is because the only time you see the White Mantle proclaiming they’re the White Mantle is when they’re targeting you, the player character, which of course wtfpwns every living thing that comes after you – be they skale or drake broodmothers or the Elder Dragons’ fiercest and strongest champions. That’s not a fair assessment.

Side note: Kryta has actually put little effort in fighting Elder Dragons (the destroyers in Kessex and the Risen in all of Kryta are a relatively new situation – and by relatively new, I mean weeks old as of the PC’s arrival in the areas at most), and the centaur war is relatively recent (within a generation). That’s roughly 200-230 years in which the White Mantle survived without Kryta having military focused elsewhere, with the exception of when Zhaitan rose which would have simply occupied them for a good 10-20 years give or take (Divinity’s Reach was established a year after Zhaitan’s rise).

Yes the symbol only appears in human bandit camps, but that still doesn’t mean it stands for them being united. That’s how you interpret it and you are probably right about it, but it’s still an interpretation, not a fact.

Which is by the way, all I’m getting at. I’m not saying you are wrong, in fact I think you right, I’m just saying we lack hard evidence. We only have hints. Many hints, I give you that, but it’s still possible that only a large part of the bandits work for the White Mantle, not all of them. This would make more sense to me, but on the other hand I know that Anet likes the more simplistic “Hey I’m evil and you are evil for different reason, let’s team up and fight good! Arrrrrrrgh!”-mindset for bad guys.

Anyway, I’m totally fine with your statement, “that all bandits work for the WM” if you put a “it’s heavily implied” in front of it. Yes semantics I know, but hey you are the first one to jump in if someone words it so that a theory looks like a fact.

Also I wasn’t so much commenting on the fact that the player can roflstomp WM NPCs, I was refering to their stupidity in that one quest, where you lure them into a trap. It’s the most obvious set up for a trap in Tyria’s history and they still easily fall for it. Besides that most of their plans are “Kill those who oppose us! Bribe/blackmail some people! Kill more people who oppose us! ??? Profit!”

I think you are forgetting some things. Kryta lost it’s capital city and what looks like to be the more densely populated part of their nation to the floods and later pirates. They had to rebuild form that, no time to hunt down WMs. And after that they committed to the war in Ascalon, not only with supplies but apparently man power too, since that centaur who was outcast from his people, tells us that he thinks the humans are going to win the war, because they don’t have to fight the Charr anymore. Why would a centaur, who’s race only fights in Kryta, care about the war in Ascalon and how it ended? Getting supplies there, when you have to fight a war on your own turf is one thing, but I doubt it had so much impact that stopping this drain of supplies is a reason why the humans are “undefeatable” now. I’m pretty sure there was more going on.
Then there are a bunch of more groups, that they don’t fight but they have to keep an eye on. Inquest, Pirates, Flame Legion, Seperatists and Renegades for example (and I know the last two are also very recent). Those are all more obvious threats to Kryta right now, than rumors about the White Mantle. I’m pretty sure besides the Shining Blade no one even took into consideration that they might still exist. Take away some of those threats and get a competent leader for the Shining Blade (which Countess Anise is not, imo) and the White Mantle is history.

Alright, you can toss out the flag. It’s still said by dozens of NPCs that they’re highly organized and working together. I mean, that’s why the bandits are a huge threat and not just some minor nuisance like the hostile skritt, or the ettins.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I’m just saying we lack hard evidence. We only have hints. Many hints, I give you that

Ever took logic?

If A is always B and B is sometimes C therefore A is sometimes C and whatnot? That’s what I applied to these “hints” and situations. Even a dozen hints can become hard evidence, depending on the situation behind them.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Anyway, I’m totally fine with your statement, “that all bandits work for the WM” if you put a “it’s heavily implied” in front of it. Yes semantics I know, but hey you are the first one to jump in if someone words it so that a theory looks like a fact.

Except that it’s more than just heavily implied.

We know the bandits are united – this isn’t just heavily hinted, it’s the case. It’s just very obscure. And we know that White Mantle are backing the bandits. What we don’t know is how the White Mantle are backing the bandits – though we know that, to some degree, they’re giving orders.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I was refering to their stupidity in that one quest, where you lure them into a trap. It’s the most obvious set up for a trap in Tyria’s history and they still easily fall for it.

For those who were setting the trap, definitely. But given how everyone was stealthed but Logan – thus for all they knew, Logan was alone, and as said Logan does go out alone at times, it’s not so obvious.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

-snip last two paragraphs-

If you take note, I mentioned the flooding. And it took them a single year to establish a new capital – seems to me that they had things under control with the flooding for the most part. And there’s still a full 150 years before that event in which Kryta was free of anything but sending supplies to Ascalon. Even after the flooding, all they did for Ascalon was send some supplies and provide a place for refugees. They did NOT send manpower to Ascalon except in recent years (the Fallen Angel group, which was established within Edge of Destiny).

Why would the centaurs care about the war in Ascalon? They don’t – what the outcast is talking about is the fact they’re becoming allies with the charr, and he has heard of the machines charr have. What he fears isn’t humans having one less front to fight – he fears humans getting reinforcements from a powerful force (the charr). It’s got nothing to do with Kryta sending the non-existent manpower across the continent.

As the Unknown Parents storyline shows, the White Mantle were more than just rumors to the Shining Blade, and there’s actually little to no reason for the humans of Kryta to keep an eye on the Inquest or Flame Legion (nor is there any indication that they’ve done such) – btw, the Inquest are also a recent group (I don’t think we have a date to it though, we’re just told that it’s “recent”).

TL;DR Kryta had 150 years to wipe out the White Mantle, with the Shining Blade knowing of their continued existence. They only have plights beginning with the flood caused by Zhaitan, and that was minor. Their bigger issues other than White Mantle manipulation (or even that) began within a couple recent generation(s). If 150 years isn’t enough time to wipe out a known enemy, then obviously that enemy – who is outright stated to have grown to subterfuge and the like – is not a “joke.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Alright, you can toss out the flag. It’s still said by dozens of NPCs that they’re highly organized and working together. I mean, that’s why the bandits are a huge threat and not just some minor nuisance like the hostile skritt, or the ettins.

Ever took logic?

If A is always B and B is sometimes C therefore A is sometimes C and whatnot? That’s what I applied to these “hints” and situations. Even a dozen hints can become hard evidence, depending on the situation behind them.

Yes, this why it is a valid theory, not proven fact though. That’s how science works. One person or a group gather evidence, then they make a theory out of it. And even if it is the only theory you have at the time, that does not mean it’s the absolute truth. It could still be disproved once someone finds different evidence.
We have many hints that lead us to theories on how the universe came into existence, but that doesn’t mean even one of them is true. It’s just the best explanation we have and we use it until we find a better one.
So I’m standing by that, it’s a theory. A good one and probably true, but until we find out more about the Mantle or some writer decides to clear this up, it remains a theory, not a fact.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For those who were setting the trap, definitely. But given how everyone was stealthed but Logan – thus for all they knew, Logan was alone, and as said Logan does go out alone at times, it’s not so obvious.

In the Kessex Hills? Far away from his job of being the queens personal lap dog? And it’s not like this isn’t pretty well known, if you listen to the peoples gossip.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If you take note, I mentioned the flooding. And it took them a single year to establish a new capital – seems to me that they had things under control with the flooding for the most part. And there’s still a full 150 years before that event in which Kryta was free of anything but sending supplies to Ascalon. Even after the flooding, all they did for Ascalon was send some supplies and provide a place for refugees.

I saw the part about the flood but you didn’t seem to give it much weight. Yes they established a new capital, but guess what, you have to do that rather quickly if your real capital is lost. That doesn’t mean Kryta was fine by that time. As I said, the largest part of their population seemed to live in the south, around Lion’s Arch. Loosing that land must have been a heavy blow to Kryta. I’m sure it took them some time to recover from that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why would the centaurs care about the war in Ascalon? They don’t – what the outcast is talking about is the fact they’re becoming allies with the charr, and he has heard of the machines charr have. What he fears isn’t humans having one less front to fight – he fears humans getting reinforcements from a powerful force (the charr). It’s got nothing to do with Kryta sending the non-existent manpower across the continent.

“Historically, the humans have been weakened by battle on multiple fronts. But with their upcoming peace treaty with the charr, that would soon change” – Outcast Quindova

The Charr machinery is part of his fear of fighting a lost battle, but not the only reason.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As the Unknown Parents storyline shows, the White Mantle were more than just rumors to the Shining Blade, and there’s actually little to no reason for the humans of Kryta to keep an eye on the Inquest or Flame Legion (nor is there any indication that they’ve done such) – btw, the Inquest are also a recent group (I don’t think we have a date to it though, we’re just told that it’s “recent”).

Inquest are rather recent but especially dangerous to all Tyria. Probably the biggest threat of all racial enemies, because of their political influence within the Arcane Council (and the Asura are a race that have potential to gain world domination anyway, unlike the humans, who are past their prime in Tyria[continent]) and they have learn to harness draconic energy. Not mentioning the countless of other schemes they have their fingers in. Not watching them would be incredibly stupid, especially since they work with human bandits.
The Flame Legion are know for their extreme hatred for humans and they are still strong enough to hold basis within the Charr territory. Ignoring them would be risky too.

1. It may be a theory that the White Mantle are backing all bandit activities, but it’s not a theory that all known/seen bandit camps are united, nor is it a theory that the White Mantle are backing at least some bandit activities. Which is what I was saying from the get go.
2. He goes to Lion’s Arch alone, and if you actually play more than just that storyline for humans, Logan goes out and about quite often – including to Kessex Hills (he specifically goes to raid a bandit camp with just you and him during the Dead Sister storyline, for example). Why is he going out? He’s hunting down threats to the queen.
3. That’s highly speculative when we’re given no indication of such. Tyrians adapt to calamities a hell of a lot better than we do.
4. Though the fact remains that all Kryta’s doing to aid the Ascalon Liberation War (or w/e its called on the human side) is sending supplies and giving a pseudo police force for Ebonhawke alone – for the purpose of quelling Separatists. They’ve not sent any military support to Ascalon except in the past five years.
5. I’d say the White Mantle/Bandits/Corrupt Ministry coalition (whether or not you say it’s a single force) are the biggest threat of all racial enemies, given their ties to so many hostile groups – I mean, they’re allies with enemies of humans, asura, sylvari, and norn. And thanks to the events of Crucible of Eternity, the Inquest have been given a mighty blow. And BTW, the alliance between Inquest and bandits is fairly new – at least as far as Krytans know (same goes for the human/centaur alliance). And the Flame Legion has posed no threat to Kryta – they may hold extreme hatred for humans, but they’re not only a far distant threat but also having all of their attention on the charr, who were until the past year, enemies of Kryta (thus Krytans had no care for the other three legions’ woes except for the groups trying to bring peace).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Though the fact remains that all Kryta’s doing to aid the Ascalon Liberation War (or w/e its called on the human side) is sending supplies and giving a pseudo police force for Ebonhawke alone – for the purpose of quelling Separatists. They’ve not sent any military support to Ascalon except in the past five years.

From what I understand, Queen Jennah understands Ebonhawke is a human city and wishes to support it. She opted to make the peace treaty because it was clear that there was only a stalemate going on between Ebonhawke (immovable object) and the charr (unstoppable force) which was detrimental to both sides.

Conjecture: She sends aid explicitly so peace can be maintained, not to launch offenses against anyone other than the charr. Notably, as well, Ebon Vanguard are working with charr against other targets in the northeast of Ascalon. Including the Dragonbrand.

And while the charr maintain a level of distrust and disdain for humanity, so far it appears most of them just went “meh, whatever, we got Flame Legion issues to deal with anyway”. The blind, unyielding hate is seemingly only one-directional in regards to current living people.

. . . Foefire ghosts on the other hand, well . . . that’s a different can of worms

1. I’d say the White Mantle/Bandits/Corrupt Ministry coalition (whether or not you say it’s a single force) are the biggest threat of all racial enemies, given their ties to so many hostile groups – I mean, they’re allies with enemies of humans, asura, sylvari, and norn. And thanks to the events of Crucible of Eternity, the Inquest have been given a mighty blow. And BTW, the alliance between Inquest and bandits is fairly new – at least as far as Krytans know (same goes for the human/centaur alliance). And the Flame Legion has posed no threat to Kryta – they may hold extreme hatred for humans, but they’re not only a far distant threat but also having all of their attention on the charr, who were until the past year, enemies of Kryta (thus Krytans had no care for the other three legions’ woes except for the groups trying to bring peace).

The biggest threat to humanity is indeed from within, and I think that was outright stated pre-release. That the court of Kryta is as deadly as sorties against the Flame Legion, but more subtle. But all races? I don’t think the White Mantle or the bandit coalition (whichever it is in truth) could muster enough strength to do more than be an annoyance.

We’ve already seen what happens if you kitten off the Captain’s Council of Lion’s Arch . . . they go and they wreck your home, kill your children, and call it a day. We’ve also seen long in the past what happens if you convince norn you’re worth fighting.

Also, the Nightmare Court and the Inquest appear to be using the bandits and each other as much as they’re working with them. The Inquest aren’t about to turn down anything useful to them, and the Nightmare Court don’t care so long as they get to inflict suffering.

No, I think that unless there’s far far more power behind the bandits . . . they are a credible threat, but not on the level as Kudu’s experiments in the Crucible.

1. I however do think that all bandits are united is a theory. Many of them work together in certain areas, that does not mean all do and the ones that do work together could easily be a temporary alliance.
2. Yes but not all alone. He has absolutly no reason to wander aimlessly and alone in the Kessex Hills. The game even shows that he is a terrible act while doing it. Maybe played for laughs, but still canon.
3. Quicker does not mean instant. Besides, how well did Ascalon rebuild after the Searing? How long did it take for Elona to grow after the Scarab Plague? I think especially the last one is a good comparison. An event that destroyed the cultural center of a nation. There it took 4 years alone to get a new leader. We don’t have much information besides that, but I’m pretty sure it took way longer until everything was on the level it was before. It also took them almost 70 years to resettle Istan. Yeah that’s an incredible fast recovery.
4. When I said man power was send there, I’m not only talking about an official military intervention, I’m talking also and foremost about volunteers. And that did happen, I can’t remember were, but somewhere a NPC in Kryta mentions that humans from Kryta (mostly with ascalonian heritage I guess) volunteered to fight in Ebonhawke. How does that affect Kryta’s military strength? Less men to draft, that’s how.
5. The seperatists seemed to be a threat far away too, yet they managed to almost kidnap the queen. Yes the Flame Legion targets the other Legions primarily, that does not mean they could not plan to low up DR. You can’t go in there with the mindset of the player, you can be a Charr and see what the FLs plans are, the humans ingame can’t. From their perspective the Flame Legion is as potentially dangerous as the seperatists. And we see how the kitten Shining Blade under Countess Anise coulnd’t even prevent them from sneaking in on the Queen. Seriously why is she still in that position? Every sane person would have had her replaced by that point.
Anyway, the WM is by far not as threatening as the Inquest, even after they took that blow in the CoE. The WM simply lacks the manpower to overthrow Kryta. And even if they do manage it, they still only have Kryta. To be honest, that would be bad for the Krytans, but the rest of the world would be pretty unaffected. What would they do next? Try to reclaim the south? Good luck with that, those pirates are filthy rich and in league with pretty much everyone. What else could they do? Stop surpporting the war on the dragons? You said it yourself, Kryta does almost nothing anyway. No loss there.
The WM is such a ridiculous threat because even when they succeed, the worst case scenario is that they have gained the power in Kryta. There is not much else they can do, since Kryta is in no fashion to go alone vs a coalition of anyone else. Worst case scenario if the Inquest takes over the Asura? Probably a total war between Asura and the rest of Tyria. And they have a good chance of winning or blowing up the planet with magitech nukes (metaphorically).

1. So, Buddhakeks, you’re saying that the NPCs which say that the bandits are a united, organized, force with a goal in mind are simply theorizing, despite the fact they’re saying it as a fact? One such NPC being Lieutenant Cassandra (though she doesn’t use the term “united” so feel free to semantically nitpick that one, though iirc, there are NPCs in Harathi and Kessex Hills which mentions the bandits being united as well as Cassandra and others in Brisban).

I suppose that’s possible, but at that point you’re then openly disregarding NPCs who are not otherwise implied to be wrong.

2. You do realize that his “terrible act” was him mocking the White Mantle. It is indeed canon, and it’s also intentionally “terrible.” If you actually pay attention to Logan’s character, you’d notice that when he’s not fervently defending Jennah or mourning how he made a difficult past decision that ended with Snaff’s death, he’s a bit of a jokster. That’s just one case – another that everyone can see is Crucible of Eternity’s story mode.

3. Resettling Istan is a poor comparison. Firstly, it’s a plague – biohazard issues are slow for Tyrians compared to others calamities. And not to mention that regardless of one’s capability to cope from a disaster, you cannot cope a disaster while it’s ongoing, and plagues take a while to dissipate. Secondly, as shown both in the manuals and in-game, there was a superstition about dark magics coming from Fahranur that kept people from returning. The Searing is also a poor example, as it destroyed the ecosystem – a flood only leveled one, but not destroy it. It was impossible to grow plants in Ascalon for a while, whereas after floods it’s very much possible.

4. Volunteers would go wherever they want to go. They’re a wildcard that you cannot say did go to Ascalon (we have no indication that, other than Ascalonian refugees from Ascalon Settlement/Rurikton, folks went to Ascalon to fight). And in regards to the refugees returning to Ascalon, that doesn’t hinder Kryta one bit – because they’re not of Kryta’s original population. If anything, it aids them because they have to give less food to the would-be larger Krytan population. Same, for that matter, as volunteers hindering the government’s actions – the worst case scenario is as you point out, less men to draft, but if the government went and made the White Mantle’s survival public (which they obviously did not), then there’d also be volunteers for Kryta’s war efforts. Considering that in the past 250 years, the battle with the White Mantle has been in the shadows, volunteers never affected it except for recruits into the Shining Blade or those coerced by the White Mantle to become bandits.

5. Anise wasn’t at Caudecus’ party, if you note – nor were any of the Shining Blade. Why? We don’t know though Jennah mentions one of her servants being sick and thus resting inside the mansion, so that servant was likely Shining Blade.

No, the Krytans can’t just hop on a charr character. That’s true. However, they still have communications with groups that are over there who are more interested in watching the Flame Legion’s movements (Ebonhawke, for instance), as well as knowing that there hasn’t been a single Flame Legion movement even close to Kryta since the charr invasion and that the charr on a whole have been occupied with Ascalon; and for that matter, they’d know of the revolution where the Flame Legion were sent packing. Truth be told, I think they’ve been more cautious about the Iron, Blood, and Ash Legions in the past 250 years. Because they actually have manpower that the Flame Legion didn’t.

I highly disagree with the notion that the WM lacks the manpower to overthrow Kryta. They have Caudecus, the most influential man in Kryta and most likely to take power should Jennah die.

And I also highly disagree with your notion of what could happen if the Inquest take over the Arcane Council. Wanna know why? Fun fact: THEY HAVE. Flax is a full out Inquest supporter, and they have a member in the council. They often take projects from the Arcane Council and are fully supported by the Coucnil (so long as other groups don’t create more cost-effective means of the same stuff). If that’s not control of the council, I wouldn’t know what is. Having all members being Inquest? That’s the only more control they can get, but as shown via NPC dialogue, the Inquest already does almost everything the Arcane Council should be doing.

Besides, the asura are so isolationistic and so many hate the Inquest that there’d be a full out revolt of Inquest vs. everyone else who isn’t keeping their nose out of the entire deal. Unlike Kryta, the asura are not united.

1. Do they speak of all bandits as a whole or of the bandits in the respective regions? Also I said in my very first post if you can produce a quote that undoubtly says all bandits are united, I’m fine with it. Yet you only brought up things that hint at it, but nothing that outright said it. And since I’ve never seen anything ingame that says that they are all united and you are the only person I ever saw mentioning it, it’s only natural that I doubt that it’s a fact.
I would look for such a quote but the wiki gives me only a Norn named Cassandra talking about Dredge when I look up Lieutenant Cassandra.
2. Jokster? Aren’t Joksters supposed to be funny? Anyway, risking a mission because he feels to need to joke around is not only stupid but dangerous. Why does Jennah hire such fools again? Also the WMs are even more brain-dead since they still don’t realize it’s a trap. In thise battle of dimwitted vs. idiotic, dimwitted won. Congratulations! And now let’s hire some people that are not willing to jeopardize a important mission because they feel the need to be funny.
And no I did not do the CoE (or Flame Citadelle) story mode yet, because sadly nobody ever plays story modes anymore.
3. How is it different? Elona lost the heart of its civilization and could not resettle it because of a still lingering plague, Kryta lost the heart of its civilization and could not resettle it because of pirates and undead. Who cares what made the people leave their home as long as it is lost?
4. So if nothing in Ascalon affected Kryta’s military power, why would the centaur be afraid of the peace treaty? Charr tech? Why would the Charr immediately share their technology with a race they just thought for hundreds of years? And a centaur should know that, it’s not a “secret to everybody” (stealth Zelda reference). Besides that, as I quoted, he especially mentions that the humans don’t fight on two fronts anymore. And it’s not like he doesn’t understand the concept of different nations with different interests, as the centaurs were for the longest part of their history not united themself.
5. It’s not only about the fact that Anise wasn’t at the party (as she or atelast the royal guard should have been), it’s the fact that she did no counter-espionage to find out about it. The Shining Blade has two roles. 1. Protect the queen as personal guard and 2. they are a secret service. Yet they utterly fail at the last part. They led minions of Zhaitan in the throne room, completly and blindly trusting in a Priory device at one point! They are obviously not in any shape to do this job.
Heck the only competent members of the SB seem to be those two who acompany you when you search for your parents as a human. The worst of all is Anise though, the only thing she is good at, is using Mesmer magic. Even gullible Evennia was a better leader than her.

All I’m saying is, there are so many potential threats to Kryta, that rumors of the WM are not necessarily top priority. For all we know they could have been even in denial about it, refusing to believe the WM still exists somewhere and is a potential threat. Wouldn’t surprise me if someone as Anise can be the Shining Blades’ Master Exemplar. So again, if their were less threats and a more competent SB, then yes, I think the WM could have been dealt with a long time ago. Now they maybe even stronger than they used to be. Still worst case scenario, the Mantle sacks Kryta. They’ve done it before and nobody would have cared if the PC hadn’t walked in and caught them red handed slaying some chosen.
And again, the Inquest rallying all Asura behind them is the worst case scenario. It probably wouldn’t happen since the Asura on the whole are too solitary and egoistic, but if you have played some events in Metrica you will notice that the Inquest are using their propaganda on the young Asura. One generation later and we could already deal with a large percentage of brain-washed submissive and evil yet smart little hamsters. Hamsters who are able to build functioning death machines and dragon-slaying super lazers.
In comparison, what is the WM’s trump card? Mursaat. Yeah, no. They are probably borderline extinct and as Zinn shows, the Asura are able to build machinery that protects them from the spectral agony, even if just for a short amount of time.

On topic here, I posted in another topic a few places which might interest you as to GW1 references. Sadly, not much in the way of player character but we’ve covered that dead horse with a nice tarpaulin and mourned it.

- There are ruins of the Granite Citadel in Dredgehaunt Cliffs. As well as other areas around Sorrow’s Furnace/Grenth’s Footprint/Spearhead Peak

- Brisban Wilderness is a lot of old Maguuma, but significantly you can find the Druid’s Overlook I think. Also “Aurora’s Remains”, which A LOT of people don’t even know about.

- Frostgorge Sound has some places in the southern third which correspond with locations in the Northern Shiverpeaks.

Yeah, you can find:

*Shaemoor/Nebo Terrace/Ascalon Settlement
*Old Lion’s Arch
*Ruins of Demetra
*Ruins of the Temple of Ages
*Wizard’s Tower
*Ruins of Denravi
*Fort Koga
*Aurora Remains
*Temple of the Unseen
*Ascalonian Catacombs
*Rin
*Nolani
*Piken Square
*Serenity Temple
*Great Northern Wall
*Barradin’s Estate
*Pockmark Flats
*Yak’s Bend
*Frost Gate
*Grubble’s Gulch
*Granite Citadel
*Ruins of Droknah (Droknar’s Forge)
*Sorrow’s Furnace

That’s all I can think of off the top of my head locations wise. I want to note that I didn’t mention the dredge mines that were named after old dwarven mines. I did this because nothing about these locations speak to the way things were, they are just new mines with the same name, and in certain instances, such as Copper Hammer Mines, they are in completely different locations all together.