Guild Wars 2

I love the story and lore of Guild Wars as muh as I love my family (sad I know)

My point is, and I have already mentioned this to devs in game

GW2 NEEDS more referance, history and relation to GW1

1 dev even said that GW2 is a “new Game” and I can understand that yes it mechanics and gameplay are completely different, but Ignoring the wants of GW1 players, the history and the beautiful story line is like Anet pushing aside their loyal GW1 players to attract new gamers.
If anet is worried that new gamers will not uderstand the story becasue they didn’t play GW1 THEN TEACH THEM – It’s simple to incorperate the lore from one game to anotherand it’s sad that they have hardly attempted.
It’s unfair, unjust. GW1 has been forgetten about.

Setting aside issues of “fairness,” how about listing some suggested areas of lore you’d like to see brought back?

There are more ties to Prophecies and Eye of the North than the other campaigns, since they’re set on Tyria (the continent, not to be confused with the planet of the same name,) and I see quite a few references in places all over the world. Gwen’s grave, for instance, Ogden Stonehealer living with the Durmand Priory, even Maw’s Rise.

It could be more integral to the plot, with the Ascalonian Catacombs probably the place where it’s most prominent, but I’m really not sure how much more lore from GW1 can support an extensive new story and isn’t being used somewhere. (The Dragonbrand, for instance, is the path Kralkatorrik took on its way to kill Glint in the Crystal Desert, for example. “Edge of Destiny” involves Glint and Kralkatorrik, but hopefully we’ll learn more whenever Kralkatorrik takes center stage.)

I should note that I haven’t played much of Nightfall, which probably has lore I’m not thinking of that could be tapped.

There are plenty of GW1 references, sometimes to the point of breaking the lore. Plains of Ashford, Diessa Plateau, and Blazeridge all have Ascalonian characters, to say nothing of Ascalonian Catacombs. Anton and Captain Greywind are in Gendarren Fields, and the entire Aurora’s Remains area in Brisban is one big nod to Aurora Glade. And those are just the ghosts.

Most of the GW1 lore was about the humans. A.Net said that they don’t want GW2 to be human centric, that’s why they introduced Scarlet rather than expanding the already existing lore.

What’s annoying isn’t much the lack of places that reference the old game, but it is the lack of any mention of any of our achievements. It is almost as if 90% of the world knew nothing about anything that happened only 250 years ago. I mean, at the very least they could have done something with my HoM….

Narcemus.1348:

What’s annoying isn’t much the lack of places that reference the old game, but it is the lack of any mention of any of our achievements. It is almost as if 90% of the world knew nothing about anything that happened only 250 years ago. I mean, at the very least they could have done something with my HoM….

^—- THIS! I don’t care if that stuff was human-centric, it was ridiculously important to the world and at least with EoTN you do have the involvement of the Norn, Charr and Asura – and yet there are very little mentions of these things. Kryta would have known who our character was because we played a pretty pivotal role in exposing the White Mantle and in WiK. So why does nobody care -_-. (It’s not even thaaat difficult to get around the fact that the PC has to be referred to ambiguously since everyone who played GW1 experienced the same things.)

For a sense of perspective, it might be worth noting that 250 years from our past is 1763. That’s a fairly far back, and while we know quite a lot about it, we also have the advantage of readily-available history books on basically any subject, as well as the internet, movies, and other media that can reinforce and expand history for us. In Tyria, however, if you’re not in the Durmand Priory, you’re probably more worried about putting food on the table and not getting killed by centaurs than about who did what 250 years ago.

Some exceptions include the Charr, who have some enormous statues to their cultural heroes after two-and-a-half centuries of cultural revolution and civil war, and the Norn, who celebrate semi-exaggerated versions of their cultural heroes, including Jora and Svanir, as part of their tradition. The progress-minded Asura don’t seem very interested in history or tradition, and the Sylvari are too young as a species (24 years for the firstborn,) to have much awareness of history.

As for the humans, their day-to-day seems to be wrapped up in their war with the centaurs. Divinity’s Reach, the center of Krytan culture after the destruction of Lion’s Arch, is only 106 years old, and Lion’s Arch has been building a new culture, up from “pirate lair” to “city,” in the past 96 years, after being in ruins for 10 years. That’s a lot of upheaval, and a lot closer to home to the general population than the destruction of the Titans or the Great Destroyer, both of which were practically unknown to people at large.

The only place where you see much cultural continuity is Ebonhawke, which has been withstanding siege for 250 years and is the last unbroken thread of Ascalonian heritage. People there might remember their heroes, but they’re wrapped up in the potential end of their war with the char.

Basically, if it seems like 90% of the world knows nothing about the heroes’ exploits in GW1, that’s because 90% of the world really doesn’t. They’re too busy to study history, even if the history is available (which is frequently isn’t unless you’re a scholar or noble.) Those that do know are pretty occupied with all the other wars at hand, including the war on the dragons.

Sources:
Here is a really fantastic interview with Jeff Grubb, where he talks about the damaged history between GW1 and GW2. Highly recommended.

Movement of the World, a document ArenaNet put up describing the tremendous upheavals Tyria has been through.

Official timeline I used for dates in this post.

As an aside, I wouldn’t say that asura aren’t interested in history, but that they’ve lost theirs. It’s implied that only a bare fraction of the asuran race escaped the destroyers, so their historians likely fell with their libraries.

References don’t matter. You see “55m” carved into a tree in some hidden place, recalling 55 monks. And?

OP is right. GW1 lore and the players are forgotten, they are trying to trash us. But they just don’t get that this way they will lose 50% of players.

What is it you want, exactly, as a continuation of the lore from the old game? Keeping in mind that it has to be fun and intelligible for those totally unfamiliar with the old games, too.

(I don’t doubt there are good ways to handle it; I’m legitimately asking what you have in mind.)

Redenaz.8631:

What is it you want, exactly, as a continuation of the lore from the old game? Keeping in mind that it has to be fun and intelligible for those totally unfamiliar with the old games, too.

(I don’t doubt there are good ways to handle it; I’m legitimately asking what you have in mind.)

I can only speak for myself, but personally it’s too late for that. The game is just too different on so many levels. So I just rant. :/

If I had to guess, I suppose others would like to simply see more in-game references to the events/people/places of GW1 other than a random quote from a book on a top shelf somewhere.

/shrug

Tossing out what’s practical to be implemented at this point, I’m really interested in what would have been ideal in this area, more than scattered references like the game has currently. Do you think the 250-year time jump is just too much?

Redenaz.8631:

Tossing out what’s practical to be implemented at this point, I’m really interested in what would have been ideal in this area, more than scattered references like the game has currently. Do you think the 250-year time jump is just too much?

LOL, you should read my other posts…

The 250-year thing plays right into their hands when it comes to this new Tyria, I don’t think that was accidental, on the contrary, quite purposeful. It helps them break free of all those troublesome ties to the past…

Obsidian.1328:

LOL, you should read my other posts…

The 250-year thing plays right into their hands when it comes to this new Tyria, I don’t think that was accidental, on the contrary, quite purposeful. It helps them break free of all those troublesome ties to the past…

I agree. The thing is, all things are built upon what happened in the past.

In the U.S. where I live, 250 years ago was a couple of decades before we were even a country and pretty much in our infancy. That being said, all the things that were going on had huge impact on what we are today. Many minor things may have been forgotten but not the big things.

In all countries, celebrations of the past are commonplace. Traditions endure even if they have evolved.

Even after 250 years, our past defines us. It certainly isn’t forgotten or non-evident.

Was it really that important what happend back then?
The heros fought undead, like everyone else.
They worked for both sides of the war, which is strange.
They helped an lich to get an mighty artefact, later killed him after he freed some monsters with it and they fought the monster invasion.
Do you really think that’s a good story to tell?

Reminder: We can’t even visit the more important places of gw1s storyline.

On the other side we have Ascalon, full of ghosts from the past. Zephrites which are connected to glint. And many, many hints at gw1.

LunarNacht.8913:

Was it really that important what happend back then?
The heros fought undead, like everyone else.
They worked for both sides of the war, which is strange.
They helped an lich to get an mighty artefact, later killed him after he freed some monsters with it and they fought the monster invasion.
Do you really think that’s a good story to tell?

Reminder: We can’t even visit the more important places of gw1s storyline.

On the other side we have Ascalon, full of ghosts from the past. Zephrites which are connected to glint. And many, many hints at gw1.

You are so entirely wrong I can’t tell.

A story with politics, zealous groups, betrayal, tricking the player character to fight on the wrong side, fighting a fallen god, and so on, are just ways deeper stories to tell than.. “There. Dragons. Dragons everywhere. Evil, evil dragons. They destroy. Kill THEM!”

There are so many untied and interesting, deep stories. Ways better than the new shallow ones. Lot more people would be interested, GW1 fans for sure, and if done right, GW2 players too. Anything is better than Dragons and Scarlet/Starlet.

Most of the stuff in gw1 wasn’t as interesting as you make it.
There were some good quests. But most stuff was: “Enemies there, go kill.”

LunarNacht.8913:

Most of the stuff in gw1 wasn’t as interesting as you make it.
There were some good quests. But most stuff was: “Enemies there, go kill.”

Next time don’t skip the cutscenes.

^ Yeah… Players like you are prolly the main reason that they decided to burn old Tyria to the ground, or sink it, or just in general thrash and bash it into small, barely perceivable pieces.

LunarNacht.8913:

Most of the stuff in gw1 wasn’t as interesting as you make it.
There were some good quests. But most stuff was: “Enemies there, go kill.”

Sounds like you never been though The Searing.

Dude, it’s honestly like how GW2 is. Only now it’s got variety. “enemies coming, kill them.” and “Enemies there, kill them” When you boil things down that’s how it goes. It was the story tied to that idea that made it so memorable for many of us.

True.
But i still don’t get why you want to remember the “heros” from back then. They just did all kinds of jobs. It’s much better to remember the people who gave those quests and that’s done. The “heros” did everything back then and you can’t tell a tale like that.
Ebonhawk is completely a tribute to GW1. And it’s a great deal of content. So are the ghosts. The war in Kryta, was just that, a war 250 years ago, most cultures don’t really talk about that all the time. Mursaat are mostly known by the shining blade which are more like the humans secret organisation.
If you put more into it, you have no room for new stuff and the areas we can visit aren’t connected with many regions from GW1. It would be nice to get more lore in general into the game but i don’t see any reason to just add gw1 references. Things like the Marriner Plaques are nice.

Another problem with gw1 related storys are the players. Most wouldn’t like a simple ending to one of their favorite storys. So the devs have to make it big and shiny and understandable for players that don’t know gw1.

So we don’t remember big movers and shakers from our big wars and victories? I mean who remembers George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson… Heck, we remember Paul Revere, and his story is VERY small. BTW, all of these references are from a similar situation in my own nation from a very similar length of time ago… Our PC was trusted by the crown and all of it’s armies. In Kryta, at the very least, they fought against the white mantle/mursaat/jade armors in the very streets of Lion’s Arch, they joined the groups of Lionguard that were hunting down and destroying the Titans in North Kryta Province, and they don’t deserve any remembrance at all in this nation? I do not understand why some guy who just stood and said, “Hey, go kill this guy” deserves to have had more impact on the world than my own character. I don’t expect his name shouted out at every corner, obviously, but I would expect more about at the very least the events and the group of adventurers that conquered them. Thus far there’s only one random comment by some scholars talking about an ancient scroll talking about those adventures, other than that… Nothing.

On a side-note, I was a great friend of many norn… would they have really let me die without spreading my legend? If so, they are either terrible norn or terrible friends.

Narcemus.1348:

So we don’t remember big movers and shakers from our big wars and victories? I mean who remembers George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson… Heck, we remember Paul Revere, and his story is VERY small. BTW, all of these references are from a similar situation in my own nation from a very similar length of time ago… Our PC was trusted by the crown and all of it’s armies. In Kryta, at the very least, they fought against the white mantle/mursaat/jade armors in the very streets of Lion’s Arch, they joined the groups of Lionguard that were hunting down and destroying the Titans in North Kryta Province, and they don’t deserve any remembrance at all in this nation? I do not understand why some guy who just stood and said, “Hey, go kill this guy” deserves to have had more impact on the world than my own character. I don’t expect his name shouted out at every corner, obviously, but I would expect more about at the very least the events and the group of adventurers that conquered them. Thus far there’s only one random comment by some scholars talking about an ancient scroll talking about those adventures, other than that… Nothing.

On a side-note, I was a great friend of many norn… would they have really let me die without spreading my legend? If so, they are either terrible norn or terrible friends.

This is how most MMO’s record the player’s actions, they use a catch-all like “a group of adventurers” to describe the player’s actions since the player can conceivably be any of a massive variety of people. The fact that our GW1 characters can be from three entirely different continents makes it even harder to find a way to describe them beyond “group of adventurers” Devona & Co. complicate things further, were we the central character or were we just the sixth ranger for the group?

And in response to your original point, the world of GW2 very much remembers the big “movers and shakers” of GW1. Queen Salma has achieved the status of a household name in kryta, Rurik is as well, they don’t name a ward of a city after you if you’re some forgotten nobody. Jora and Pyre have big kitten statues to them and they each made a very big impact on their respective race. We went along for the ride sure but when it came down to it it was each of their own actions that made the difference. Pyre started the revolution that ultimately freed female charr from oppression, Jora was the first norn to fight Jormag’s influence and she is both honored and vilified for it.

One other thing to consider is, yes we remember all the big names from history. But how often do we actually talk about them on a daily basis? Unless you’re a historian I’m guessing not all that much. People haven’t forgotten GW1, it’s just not relevant to daily life in GW2.

You don’t get the point. In the dialogue that I was talking about the scholars discuss the actions of Prophecies specifically as if it was myth and nothing more. It seems something completely forgotten in today’s society, that is what hurts.

Narcemus.1348:

You don’t get the point. In the dialogue that I was talking about the scholars discuss the actions of Prophecies specifically as if it was myth and nothing more. It seems something completely forgotten in today’s society, that is what hurts.

Ask 100 students in America today who won the French-Indian War, you’re as likely to get “France/the French”, “the Indians” as “the Confederacy”. History isn’t something people care about, even if they should. Ancient History is even worse. Give it another hundred years, particularly under conservative rule, and you’ll see history remanded to pockets of outcasts who cling to it like monks hanging onto scripture. Yes, it’s sad, but the practical day to day concerns of simply existing outweigh most people’s need to know where they came from. It only takes 2 generations for a community to go from well educated to culturally starved. America is in its second generation. Gen X saw the first dip in standard of living, living worse off than their parents, and Gen Y has seen the cultural divide between those with money/power and those without grow wider than it did during the Dark Ages, and for much the same reason.

You spend time arguing over what’s happening in a game, and how it shouldn’t happen at all, and all the while it’s happening in the real world all around you. It’s hardly a mystery as to how a culture can forget it’s heritage so quickly. America’s history is being re-written as we speak. It can happen. It has happened. It is happening right now.

Drakkon.4782:

Ask 100 students in America today who won the French-Indian War, you’re as likely to get “France/the French”, “the Indians” as “the Confederacy”. History isn’t something people care about, even if they should. Ancient History is even worse. Give it another hundred years, particularly under conservative rule, and you’ll see history remanded to pockets of outcasts who cling to it like monks hanging onto scripture. Yes, it’s sad, but the practical day to day concerns of simply existing outweigh most people’s need to know where they came from. It only takes 2 generations for a community to go from well educated to culturally starved. America is in its second generation. Gen X saw the first dip in standard of living, living worse off than their parents, and Gen Y has seen the cultural divide between those with money/power and those without grow wider than it did during the Dark Ages, and for much the same reason.

You spend time arguing over what’s happening in a game, and how it shouldn’t happen at all, and all the while it’s happening in the real world all around you. It’s hardly a mystery as to how a culture can forget it’s heritage so quickly. America’s history is being re-written as we speak. It can happen. It has happened. It is happening right now.

As sad as it makes me as a historian, this is true. Well not quite as harsh in Germany, for the simple reason that ignoring the past would make you highly suspicious over here, for obvious reasons (and in some cases it’s even a punishable crime).
Though I also noticed a trend that people actually start caring about the middle ages all of the sudden. Mostly expressed in going to renaissance fairs. Those are of course a theme park version of the middle ages, having about as much accuracy as the average 3 year old describing the string theory, but atleast they get people interested in finding out more. I think the rise of fantasy in the second half of the 20th century is the reason for this newly found interest.

Besides that, there are still enough people who travel to countries like egypt not only for sunbathing, but also to see the pyramids. Mostly elderly folk, but you see some younger ones every once in a while. In the age of media overload it’s hard to grab the attention of younger people, so I guess it’s the historians job to make history more entertaining (while of course not loosing the accuracy). I can atleast say that I turned a few people over with my presentations.

Part of that may also be that it’s the elderly that have both the money and the time to do things like go and see the pyramids. Having both at once is a difficult thing to do these days unless you’ve retired after a successful career or you’re a 1%er.

Going back to the topic at large…

There are actually a lot of references to GW1 on release. Personal story, for instance, has the White Mantle, something that is strongly implied to be the Tome of the Rubicon, and a Searing Cauldron just off the top of my head, and the open world is strewn with sites of historical significance.

The bigger problem is that, since release, that’s all being swept under the proverbial rug. Somewhere around the new year, ArenaNet has adopted the idea that everything that was established on release is sacrosanct and cannot be changed, so that players can complete LS and PS content in any order without the feeling that time travel is going on – the LS is somehow supposed to be running simultaneously with the PS for every hero, regardless of whether that hero has killed Zhaitan or is yet to complete the first step. This manifests not just in a refusal to advance the timeline on anything touched by the personal story, but also in retconning the advancing of the timeline that had happened in Lost Shores (where it was said that Southsun was available for exploration and colonisation, for both karka and the Consortium, because of Zhaitan’s fall). Never mind that the very form of time travel they’re trying to avoid can be achieved simply by, for example, visiting a high-level zone such as Frostgorge or the region of Orr while having neglected to get to the point in the PS where the Pact has formed.

Since the PS did draw on a lot of material from GW1, this means that all of that material is effectively frozen in stasis along with the PS, and all the depth that they’d established in GW1 and in the development of GW2 is being squandered while they’re trying to establish a totally new storyline from the ground up with Scarlet. This is, IMO, a serious mistake – there’s a lot of potential in what most people regard as the main story of GW2 that’s being left to rot, and actually making use of that material is worth accepting that sometimes that means players will do things out of chronological order.

Heck, in GW1 it was plausible for a character to start in 1175, take part in events that occurred in 1178 and then 1179, and then come back to participate in events that happened in 1172, possibly including those that caused some of the events that happened in 1178 and 1179. GW1 wasn’t hurt in the slightest by this – in fact, the depth and breadth of the GW1 story is part of why so many people remain nostalgic for it in the first place.

In near full agreement with you, Drax, but some correction: 1072 AE, 1075 AE, 1078, 1079, and 1080 AE are the major years of Guild Wars 1. (I’m pretty sure it was a mistype from your end.)

draxynnic.3719:

Part of that may also be that it’s the elderly that have both the money and the time to do things like go and see the pyramids. Having both at once is a difficult thing to do these days unless you’ve retired after a successful career or you’re a 1%er.

I don’t know how it is in the states, but it’s actually pretty cheap to go from europe to egypt. And you see a lot of mid-twenties to forties, but they rather hang out at the beach than go and see the sights.

Yeah, going from US to Africa we’re talking thousands. I know because I visited Sierra Leone (a longer trip I believe) less than a year ago. Not only that but you have days lost to travel crossing the Atlantic at times. This was a special scenario, otherwise I would not have had the time or the finances in order to make a trip like that happen.

Drakkon.4782:

Ask 100 students in America today who won the French-Indian War, you’re as likely to get “France/the French”, “the Indians” as “the Confederacy”. History isn’t something people care about, even if they should.

Drakkon.4782:

You spend time arguing over what’s happening in a game, and how it shouldn’t happen at all, and all the while it’s happening in the real world all around you. It’s hardly a mystery as to how a culture can forget it’s heritage so quickly. America’s history is being re-written as we speak. It can happen. It has happened. It is happening right now.

I agree with you if we are talking about the population at large. But whether or not any population forgets on a large scale what has happened in history, on a smaller scale history is acknowledged in all societies. Monuments, holidays, celebrations, reenactments, themed tourists spots, and museums all contribute to history’s recognition. Most countries have these things. So I agree that more could have been infused into the game that recognizes achievements from the GW1 game.

Another thing to consider is that our characters and those we interact with should have deft knowledge of the past and its affects on current society. The Priory and The Whispers both are organizations that deal and thrive on knowledge. They are the elite knowledge and information gatherers of the current GW timeline. Still little of GW history is seen in either of their orders or the missions associated with them. With the exception of Ogden, history is not very evident in the orders either.

The final thing I would like to point out is that the goal of any sequel whether it be a game or book or movie is that the makers are relying on the retention and fandom of the originals in order to sell the sequel. The sequel almost always is a continuation of the original in some way. Much of the story that was in GW1 has been ignored IMO in GW2. So ancient histories may be ignored by societies, but GW1 was just history of less than a year and a half for me personally. I want to see that games lore heavily infused into the game I am playing now. GW1 is NOT ancient history to those of us who played it and expect to see it heavily depicted in GW2.

jheryn.8390:

The final thing I would like to point out is that the goal of any sequel whether it be a game or book or movie is that the makers are relying on the retention and fandom of the originals in order to sell the sequel. The sequel almost always is a continuation of the original in some way. Much of the story that was in GW1 has been ignored IMO in GW2. So ancient histories may be ignored by societies, but GW1 was just history of less than a year and a half for me personally. I want to see that games lore heavily infused into the game I am playing now. GW1 is NOT ancient history to those of us who played it and expect to see it heavily depicted in GW2.

And my point is that expecting a population concerned with daily survival to care about history is neither realistic, nor something the developers are wishing to illustrate. The Priory may keep detailed records, and people who work for them will know the history of the world, keeping it safe until such time that they can disseminate it back into the general population, if ever, but the general population will neither know, nor care about, their own history, save for what they cling to as part of their coping mechanisms (re: Ebonhawke). Expecting otherwise is unrealistic.

As for what the developers did with GW1 to GW2, that’s simple. They provided you with a world and said, here’s what’s happened, and welcome to the new world. What you expected and what you got are either the same or different based on your own anticipation, but that’s not the fault of the developers for not reading your mind and providing you with the game you wanted them to make.

I think they did a lovely job on GW2, and absent a few things I would have preferred they put in from a game features standpoint, the lackluster manner they handled the armor for the Charr and Asura, and the continued failing on their part to realize that both races will remain underutilized until THEY fix them, it’s a great game. They took the GW1 world I used to play and enjoy, updated it with a fairly considerate motif that allowed for 250 years of events to occur, and then said “Well, here’s the world after all this **** happened to it. Have fun learning about it and making your way through it!” And I have. Your online experience may vary.

Drakkon.4782:

And my point is that expecting a population concerned with daily survival to care about history is neither realistic, nor something the developers are wishing to illustrate. The Priory may keep detailed records, and people who work for them will know the history of the world, keeping it safe until such time that they can disseminate it back into the general population, if ever, but the general population will neither know, nor care about, their own history, save for what they cling to as part of their coping mechanisms (re: Ebonhawke). Expecting otherwise is unrealistic.

I see that you didn’t actually read the part of my reply that said that the population at large may not know or care, but the people we are dealing with who are making calls for the fates of the general populace would. And since we are either part of the Priory or allied with it as part of the story line, we wouldn’t be part of the general population that such information would some day be disseminated back into. Again, I agreed with you that the general population may not know much about 250 years ago, but the people we interact with through our personal story would. We have access to their inner sanctums which the general populace would not. Our players, the places we go, the situations we must face, and the people we interact with have nothing to do with the “general populace.”

Drakkon.4782:

As for what the developers did with GW1 to GW2, that’s simple. They provided you with a world and said, here’s what’s happened, and welcome to the new world. What you expected and what you got are either the same or different based on your own anticipation, but that’s not the fault of the developers for not reading your mind and providing you with the game you wanted them to make.

How do you know what the developers had in mind for the new world? Can you read minds as you point out that they cannot? You most certainly were not a part of those closed door development discussions. You don’t know how simple or hard it was to provide this new world. You don’t actually know what reasons they had for not introducing more former lore. For that matter, you do not know what I was or was not ‘anticipating’. Don’t think that you have any grand insight on me, my desires for this game, or motivations of the developers. I didn’t expect them to read my mind and you are a tool for suggesting I did. It is my right and prerogative to be disappointed in what I didn’t see. I didn’t expect everything to be the same or expect that all I would like to see would be there. I did expect more of the old lore infused into this game either directly or passively. So did many others. It doesn’t mean that we don’t like the game or hate Anet for not doing it, it is just simple disappointment.

Drakkon.4782:

I think they did a lovely job on GW2, and absent a few things I would have preferred they put in from a game features standpoint, the lackluster manner they handled the armor for the Charr and Asura, and the continued failing on their part to realize that both races will remain underutilized until THEY fix them, it’s a great game. They took the GW1 world I used to play and enjoy, updated it with a fairly considerate motif that allowed for 250 years of events to occur, and then said “Well, here’s the world after all this **** happened to it. Have fun learning about it and making your way through it!” And I have. Your online experience may vary.

Well, my disappointment in lack of lore from the first game is totally understandable but your issues in Charr and Asura armor is certainly not just your opinion and should be immediately addressed. ANet is completely justified in not bringing more of the themes and story lines of GW1 into GW2, but because they did not consult you on aesthetics of the Charr and Asura, they have shot themselves in the foot until they do. If you think that your personal opinion on those things matter… …well they don’t. To that end I have a quote for you.

Drakkon.4782:

Expecting otherwise is unrealistic.

I am glad you like the game. I do as well but I certainly don’t need you to condescendingly ‘explain’ to me the whats, whys, and hows of GW2 development. I might have taken what you said as great counterpoint to my if it had not been presented in an all-knowing and snide way. That is OK, however. I can respond in kind when that is how I am responded to.

Well, if you’re like me and tend not to poke your nose into the other forums much, you may have missed this post. For those who haven’t seen it, it seems to be a set of guidelines of how to present feedback in a manner where it’s more likely to be well-received.

I think this presents us an opportunity – with this in mind, can we put together a joint proposal that will, hopefully, lead to ArenaNet addressing some of the concerns raised in this thread? Unfortunately, I’m looking likely to be busy for the next fortnight or so or I’d write up a draft myself, but to get the ball rolling, here are some things to think about:

First, let’s stay positive. I know a lot of us have been disappointed with the Living Story, but a large part of the reason for that disappointment is that after the compelling stories we’ve had from them in the past, we’ve come to expect better from ArenaNet. After all, we wouldn’t be here complaining about something being neglected if we didn’t think the thing being neglected was awesome and worthy of further attention, now would we? So on the whole, the tone of our request should be focused on how great we think the old lore and stories (from GW1 and the initial release of GW2) were and how we’d love to see them getting expanded on, not on attacking the stuff we haven’t enjoyed so much.

Second, in a proposal, there are a couple of concerns that we’d need to address:

The first, as I referenced earlier, is that ArenaNet does have a reasons for freezing the Personal Story: to limit the feeling of a player who’s playing bits from the Living Story and the personal story simultaneously that they’re skipping back and forth in time, possibly getting spoilers along the way. While personally I think GW1 did just fine with timeskips and this policy is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it is a valid concern, and we should address it in any proposal we make.

The other that I’m sure someone will throw at us once we get the ball rolling is that GW2 is its own game, and people who aren’t from GW1 shouldn’t be left having the feeling that they need to go back and play through all of GW1 to know what’s going on. It would probably be best if our proposal had means of addressing this concern when we formally present it.

I’ve got some ideas regarding both, but it’s already later than I’d planned to stay up tonight, so I’ll ruminate on them for a future post and throw the galleries open to see what the rest of you think.

The most you are ever going to get in a sequel title, unless its a specific mechanic of the sequel, is a nod to the former game/content in the form of small things referenced here and there, commonly referred to as “Easter Eggs”. Why? Simple.

Game development is meant to drive a game forward, not backward. You aren’t supposed to be replicating the game play and story from the prequel. The sequel is its own game. It takes place in the same universe (usually, FF may vary…), but at a future point in time, so things will be different. Stuff gets forgotten and has to be dug up (which can be implemented later), stuff changes (so the old stuff isn’t important anymore), and some stuff remains constant (to give those who played the other game a sense of nostalgia when they come across it, and the new players who never did a sense of wonder at what might have been).

So why is some lore forgotten/ignored/left out? It isn’t relevant to the game play of the current game. Simply put, the developers are telling you that it doesn’t matter at this stage of the game, literally, if ever.

“But, but, but, that was my favorite part of the old game!”

Go play the old game. This isn’t that game. This is the new game. New time, new setting, new rules. Get with the program, or go back to the old game.

And it really is as simple as that. Sure, the PR guys will put a happy spin on it and tell you something about how the world has suffered some major upheavals and changes and as the heroes of this brave new world its your job to… yadda, yadda, yadda. But simply put, they’re saying this isn’t your old game, so enjoy this one for what it is.

Threads like this aren’t new. Developers from hundreds of different games with sequels have made similar posts when these come up. Do I have to read minds? No. I have to read forums. And I do. Lots and lots of forums. I have the time right now, sadly. So what does that all mean? It means that I know what they’re thinking because they aren’t that different from the other developers out there, and they all say pretty much the same thing. The game moved forward, we’re not looking backward, times, they are a changin’. Change with them, or get left behind. Have a nice day.

Drakkon, we aren’t confused as to how or why things are the way they are, we are disagreeing with them. We do not require a lecture on the facts- we’ve got those down, and now we’ve moved on to formulating and expressing opinions. You’re missing the point.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Drakkon, we aren’t confused as to how or why things are the way they are, we are disagreeing with them. We do not require a lecture on the facts- we’ve got those down, and now we’ve moved on to formulating and expressing opinions. You’re missing the point.

+1 Aaron Ansari. Drakkon, It doesn’t matter how many forums you read or how much you think you know about the way this game was developed. None of that matters. And Aaron is absolutely correct, we certainly don’t need a lecture about any of it either.

We have the right to express what we would like to see in the game moving forward which is more lore connected to the past. Just like all of those people who want different mechanics or different gear or anything else changed or new in the game.

As Aaron said, we are expressing opinions, not asking why Anet did anything. We are also expressing our disappointment with old lore representation. I honestly don’t care why they developed lore as they did or for your opinions on sequels. Which also are simply opinions just like ours. They are not statements of fact.

We want to see ties to the old game. It is what we want. We are expressing our desire to see those things. We are hoping developers take heed, not you.

Missing the point indeed.

I think Anet should bring out Livia’s story right now. Once she returns, the GW1 lore crowd will be very happy and stop complaining.

Or they can bring out Wizard’s Tower. The lore crowd would be even happier.

Drakkon

Change, in and of itself, isn’t necessarily a good thing. Real change comes from a real need, it’s reactionary driven. Things that have been proven to work right should only be added to or built upon. Basically, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I understand why the did a lot of the things they did, they were addressing key issues. The problem is their solutions don’t always match the problem.

For instance, the grand ole “LF Healer” phrase was the bane of putting together dungeon groups since the dawn of time. ANet’s solution? Get rid of healers…in fact, just throw out the whole trinity. Despite the fact that in GW1, almost any class could be a decent healer with the 2ndary class system. It was arguably the best system out there for that. But some players were just too lazy and impatient to either wait for a healer, or have the dungeon take longer. And ANet rewards those players…

Old Tyria was a world rife with magic and sorcery, it was something that was woven into the very fabric of the world. It made sense. ANet wanted something “cool” to bring to the table with GW2, something with mass appeal. So what do they do? Lasers and bazookas! Oh that doesn’t jive well with magic? Easy fix, just downplay magic’s importance so much that it won’t really matter anymore. The gods scrammed, machines rule, and the dragons are busy devouring whatever is left of magic on Tyria. Who cares if it worked fine as it was, we have techpunk(trademarked) now!

Another example, the story. The GW1 story was arguably one of its best features, hardly anyone didn’t like it. It was a beautiful narrative. It also happened to be human dominated—not the devs fault now, that’s just how it started. So they decide they want multiple playable races in GW2 and what do they do? They trash it. They could have very easily kept the human factor in tact as it was, building new traditions alongside the old ones. Instead, they neuter all the various human kingdoms into one mono-euro culture, parcel out their homelands for the new kids on the block, and relegate them to the “sidelines” of modern culture. Overkill?

If they really cared about the original lore, why did they trash so much of it? And if they don’t care, why is it unfair for anyone to call them out on it?

I actually agree with Obsidian in much of what he has stated (OMG Crazy!)

I think technology has gone rampant in Tyria, it is just insane. In months we’ve gone from prototype subs and helicopters to megalaser wielding airships. The kind of magitech that I had hoped for from this game was something closer to the ideas of items such as the Golem Eye in Ghosts of Ascalon. It was a piece of tech that used necromancy to create a fearsome and awesome golem out of the remains surrounding it. The idea promotes magic first and foremost. Heck, even the asura we read of in Edge of Destiny used magic a heck of a lot more frequently. Klab was trying to fly by enchanting dozens of pieces of dandelion fluff together. Some of this magitech would be much more interesting IMO than megalasers, laser guns, magic cannons, etc…

As to the way in which they have treated human history. I think that in some sense, the idea of subjective truth is a valid means of treating the situation, I would like to see more in the way of subjective viewpoints as well. There should, and could, be points in history that are truth, and we should see more about how the other races perceive this truth, and thus gain more insight into their culture, beliefs, religions, etc.. as opposed to making their perspective on the situation the correct one and the old perspective wrong. I just think there are ways that they could have stepped around the lore and given it both greater depth and width simultaneously, as opposed to giving it greater width while shallowing it.

Agreed. What I would have liked to see is equality achieved through playing up the other races, not downplaying the humans. There was a bit of both, sure, but the downplaying seems to have wiped clean just about everything pre-Guild Wars 1- everything the humans believed back then is wrong, nothing that they accomplished matters anymore, the timeline has been contorted, and that’s just the human side. Besides for a short anecdote about the origin of the great hunt and maybe the ruins around Maelstrom, I don’t see anything in-game to suggest that norn or asura even existed before we met them in Guild Wars 1. Certain allowances can be made for the asura, but how is it that a race obsessed with legends and legendary deeds happen to only have stories going back to our first contact with them? Even charr history seems to start when humans began interacting with them. It creates a downward spiral- human history is no longer important, and all other races can only be measured by the stick of human history- when it would have been as feasible to create a mutually enriching and empowering narrative.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Drakkon, we aren’t confused as to how or why things are the way they are, we are disagreeing with them. We do not require a lecture on the facts- we’ve got those down, and now we’ve moved on to formulating and expressing opinions. You’re missing the point.

You can thank drax for that. He has a bad (and disturbing) habit of calling me out. So a word of advice: Stop replying to people you don’t agree with if you don’t want them to post replies back. Don’t call someone out by name in your posts is you don’t want them to call you out in return. You’re going to get a lecture each and every time you do it. Each and every time.

(Aaron, have a look at the current guild announcement)

So, onto some more productive discussion….

The stuff going on with the krait is actually a hopeful sign. We’ll see how that gets resolved, but it’s probably worthwhile to start putting a proposal together anyway.

On the two potential objections I raised, here are my thoughts:

Objection 1: Timeline issues.

There are two ways I can think of offhand to resolve this.

The one that’s probably the most obvious is to ask for updates that add to the personal story. It’s relatively simple (well, maybe not from a technical perspective, but that’s something that ArenaNet will know rather than any of us), but it does have problems – the personal story is fairly rigid in its design, for one, and for two, it’d be a bit anticlimactic to go from the current finale to some single-instance event. This is probably something better saved for an expansion, or at least a plot of similar scope (including multiple paths) to the existing personal story arcs.

Another option is to have instances that are gated according to having reached a certain point in the personal story. For instance, the White Mantle appears in one of the second set of racial storylines for humans, so a LS plot involving the White Mantle might be kept in instances that require having completed the second racial storyline (doesn’t matter if it was the SPECIFIC storyline in question, this just ensures that players won’t get to it before doing the preceding story arc). If Caudecus is involved with the WM as some people suspect, completion of CM story and the orders (30-40) personal story arc might also be prerequisites. Similar prerequisites could also be reached for anything that involves the personal story (anything involving Malyck’s tree, for instance).

Obviously, any content that is gated behind personal story, one way or another, should be permanent content, and should NOT have a meta-achievement with a time limit attached associated with it, so that players who have not reached that point in the personal story do not feel pushed to rush to that step so they can have a shot at the timed achievement. In fact, a system like this could complement the current running of the LS – instead of having two events a month with timed achievements (one of which usually ends up lasting only a fortnight), ArenaNet could have a timed event that lasts for a month for one of the fortnightly updates, and something like this for the other.

The other potential objection I raised is the concern regarding players new to the setting not wanting to have to catch up on a whole gamut of material from older installments in the setting.

Personally, I think this is a poor reason to hold stuff back – a lot of settings have, in fact, benefited from showing that they have a history that extends well beyond that directly relevant to current events, Tolkein’s Middle-Earth being one well-known example. But if this is a concern being held by ArenaNet, a philosophical debate probably isn’t going to turn them around.

Instead, this is something that can be worked in by building up on the wealth of GW1 material which has already been utilised. To take the example of the White Mantle, for instance – a player who has never played GW1 would still likely have already been introduced to the idea that there is this thing called the White Mantle that is trying to reclaim control of Kryta (through one of the 11-20 arcs and through some dialogue in northern Brisban Wildlands) and also that there is a race called the mursaat who once ruled Kryta and which can hide from enemies by shifting out of phase with our reality (Arah explorable, and talking with some of the researchers in a Fort Trinity instance prior to that). There’s enough there to build a story off.

Renn.8241:

I love the story and lore of Guild Wars as muh as I love my family (sad I know)

My point is, and I have already mentioned this to devs in game

GW2 NEEDS more referance, history and relation to GW1

1 dev even said that GW2 is a “new Game” and I can understand that yes it mechanics and gameplay are completely different, but Ignoring the wants of GW1 players, the history and the beautiful story line is like Anet pushing aside their loyal GW1 players to attract new gamers.
If anet is worried that new gamers will not uderstand the story becasue they didn’t play GW1 THEN TEACH THEM – It’s simple to incorperate the lore from one game to anotherand it’s sad that they have hardly attempted.
It’s unfair, unjust. GW1 has been forgetten about.

Kind of what Blizzard did with WoW and the RTS Warcraft saga. WoW is full with WC references.