GW2 Humans and Magic

GW2 Humans and Magic

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Posted by: Tesseract.4185

Tesseract.4185

According to the Guild Wars 2 Wiki in 1 BE, the Human Gods gave magic to the races of Tyria.

This is interesting. So every profession that we know that exists today didn’t existed prior to the Exodus because of the lack of magic? How did they took Ascalon from the Charr then? Old fashioned bloody sword battles?

And by giving magic, what does exactly means? Did the Humans created every profession we see today?

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

The timeline is wrong. That is old information, it is what humans used to believe. See also the following pages:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodstone
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic

What happened when the human gods were said to give magic is unclear since there was already magic before the gods came to tyria. Specifically the Seers, Dwarves, Mursaat, Forgotten and Jotun had magic. Even the humans already had (a form of) magic, as seen in the case of the Ritualist: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ritualist.

What seems to have been the case is that there was simply less magic (instead of no magic at all) because of the fact that the seers put a lot of magic into the bloodstone. What the human gods did was reintroduce that magic.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Like Diovid said, the timeline surrounding that event is muddled beyond use right now. As for how they took Ascalon, the charr say that the human gods gave humans magic and not them, and claim that patronage is the only reason the humans succeeded… although as we see in GW2, the charr have no problem twisting the truth, generally to make their ancestors appear victimized rather than failed or complicit.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Tesseract.4185

Tesseract.4185

The Ritualist one was interesting. I had no idea they existed before Magic was “given”. I knew they were a profession in one of the campaigns but i never played.

Thank you so much for both of your explanations, really informative. By the way, regarding the Lore, is there any records how they implemented each known profession and the first people who adopted those professions?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

By the way, regarding the Lore, is there any records how they implemented each known profession and the first people who adopted those professions?

Not except for guardian and the GW1 campaign specific classes, which were invented by humans, and engineer, which was invented by charr. At an educated guess, though, I’d say the other professions developed among the sufficiently advanced races independently. After 0 B.E., up until fairly recently, magic was broken down into four flavors, if you will, from which the four primary caster professions seem to have naturally developed. There were probably cultural differences- I doubt the asura called their healing magic prayers- but that segregation of magic would likely have encouraged spellcasters to develop along similar lines across all races. After that warrior would just denote non-spellcasting combatants. Ranger’s a bit trickier to account for, though.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The timeline is wrong. That is old information, it is what humans used to believe.

Technically, no.

The gods did give magic, but they didn’t make magic. There’s a fine difference, but a difference that must be noted.

According to a recent book we’re explained that the gift of magic was in fact just giving the Bloodstone to the various cultures and societies.

TL;DR
Giving != Making

The original Prophecies lore has been altered, but the act of gifting magic still existed.

After 0 B.E., up until fairly recently, magic was broken down into four flavors, if you will, from which the four primary caster professions seem to have naturally developed.

I think it still is, and probably always was. Even how, we still see the same themes, it’s just that the “schools” are no longer relevant.

But we still see elemental magic, chaos magic, dark magic, and light magic being referenced just as it was in GW1. And a profession only utilizes a single type of these.

Been meaning to make a theory post on that for a week now actually.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Addendum post:

This is interesting. So every profession that we know that exists today didn’t existed prior to the Exodus because of the lack of magic? How did they took Ascalon from the Charr then? Old fashioned bloody sword battles?

According to Angel McCoy, the gift of magic wasn’t a “one time act” but was done in little bits over a century. The infamous event of Abaddon gifting magic was just the largest – and the (second to) last. Presumably, all of the scriptures of the gods detail events of the gods gifting magic in some degree. So magic did exist – just not nearly as great as nowadays. One example, as brought up, was the Ritualist which seemingly used spirits to “mimic” magic.

Charr legends claim that the human gods themselves intervined in taking Ascalon, and Thruln the Lost claims that humanity had elementalists at the time they arrived on continental Tyria (which would be 205 BE). Whether either of these are true or not is unknown, but Ascalon was taken by humans in 100 BE – sometime after the Forgotten was warring with the charr in that same general area. Being a century prior to the final gift of magic, it’s possible that there was indeed some godly intervention in the form of early magic.

And by giving magic, what does exactly means? Did the Humans created every profession we see today?

In the forms we see them, possibly, however as noted magic is much older than humans and the gods. While when the gods granted magic they divided the Bloodstones to reflect four schools of magic (Preservation, Denial, Aggression, and Destruction), this doesn’t seem to be the nature of magic itself. Jotun had solely mesmers and necromancers in GW1, and called elementalism “primitive magic” – so the professions likely existed in some form for ages, but probably not as we understand them in modern times (either in GW1 or GW2).

After 0 B.E., up until fairly recently, magic was broken down into four flavors, if you will, from which the four primary caster professions seem to have naturally developed.

I think it still is, and probably always was. Even how, we still see the same themes, it’s just that the “schools” are no longer relevant.

But we still see elemental magic, chaos magic, dark magic, and light magic being referenced just as it was in GW1. And a profession only utilizes a single type of these.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Doesn’t seem to be anything from Salinus Warbreaker that is false history. There definitely are examples of charr twisting their truth (their constant claims that they destroyed their gods, not human heroes, being a big one) but we have no reason to doubt Kalla Scorchrazor’s history.

After 0 B.E., up until fairly recently, magic was broken down into four flavors, if you will, from which the four primary caster professions seem to have naturally developed.

I think it still is, and probably always was. Even how, we still see the same themes, it’s just that the “schools” are no longer relevant.

But we still see elemental magic, chaos magic, dark magic, and light magic being referenced just as it was in GW1. And a profession only utilizes a single type of these.

Been meaning to make a theory post on that for a week now actually.

My personal theory on the ‘schools being no longer relevant’ bit is that Tyria now has enough ambient magic that the restrictions of the Bloodstones can be bypassed to an extent, enough that current generations of arrogant young asura claim that it was always the case and that stupid bookahs were restricting themselves (as opposed to recognising that magic has actually changed since the Exodus). That said, it’s still easier if you keep to one of the four schools.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I got lazy with that one. What I was thinking of when I went looking was Ember’s telling of Kalla’s story in GoA, particularly how she glossed over that the charr were willing servants to the shamans up til that debacle with us slaying the titans. The modern charr like to put that period in terms that make ‘them’ (and they do seem to love drawing a distinction between charr and the shamans/Flame Legion) lied to or oppressed, which is at best an interpretation shaped to fit the modern context of the shamans as the enemy, and at worst is outright false. Of course, Ember’s account isn’t available through the wiki, so I cut corners and referred to the story by way of Salinus.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

Doesn’t seem to be anything from Salinus Warbreaker that is false history. There definitely are examples of charr twisting their truth (their constant claims that they destroyed their gods, not human heroes, being a big one) but we have no reason to doubt Kalla Scorchrazor’s history.

They probably mean after humanity got the ball rolling, they cleaned up in short order. The human heroes and Pyre Fierceshot began the revolution.

Humanity proved the titans false gods and again made a fool of the flame legion and their new destroyer gods, with Pyre Fierceshot.

There’s no denying that humans played a massive role in beginning the end of flame legion religious oppression of the charr.

But understandably, that’s probably not a popular sentiment when your saviors were also your blood vowed enemies at the time.

It’s equally understandable that they’ll attribute that to Pyre Fierceshot. As they should. Pyre Fierceshot did help us with the later destroyer ordeal.

Humanity remained an enemy of the charr long after that fact.

Peace between the charr and the humans is a very recent development. Educated charr and humans know the history.

Between the threat of the dragons and the self-evident economic success that peace has brought to both peoples, it’s likely to hold.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It’d have to be destroyers that they ‘cleaned up’, since we fight the last of the titans ourselves in EOTN. (That posse of Burning Spirits being a more dangerous opponent than the titan itself by that stage…)

In the broader picture, I suspect you’re right in how the charr idea that they killed their gods came about… but just because you can see how and why history got twisted doesn’t mean it hasn’t been twisted. That said, as you say, it’s probably in both Smodur’s and Jennah’s interest for the peace to hold, and in that regard, it might be a politic time to “rediscover” the true history.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Something many folks forget is that Pyre and his warband began a mini-revolution before EotN, beginning due to the deaths of the titans. This is why we find most of the Fierce warband imprisoned. They were on death row.

The year attributed to the beginning of Pyre’s first revolt was 1076, two years before Eye of the North.

So humans didn’t really get the ball rolling. They did kill some ‘gods’, and Pyre saw this and began the revolt, which got a little push with human assistance in 1078.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/LOR-748_Field_Reporter for year
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Pyre_Fierceshot for Pyre and warband’s first revolutionary crimes

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

It’d have to be destroyers that they ‘cleaned up’, since we fight the last of the titans ourselves in EOTN. (That posse of Burning Spirits being a more dangerous opponent than the titan itself by that stage…)

In the broader picture, I suspect you’re right in how the charr idea that they killed their gods came about… but just because you can see how and why history got twisted doesn’t mean it hasn’t been twisted. That said, as you say, it’s probably in both Smodur’s and Jennah’s interest for the peace to hold, and in that regard, it might be a politic time to “rediscover” the true history.

Up until Kormir fixed the Realm of Torment, titans and other demons were still a thing.

Even after being exposed as false, Flame Legion domination and religious oppression continued for a good while among the charr. They themselves fixed that after a while.

We, along with Pyre Fierceshot, got the ball rolling in that regard; but they finished it. They killed their gods.

Charr history will look to the charr hero, not the humans he was bumming with. That’s not a twisting of history.

Perhaps a selective reading, but it is not a lie that Pyre Fierceshot was a great hero and was a catalyst to the overthrowing of Flame Legion domination.

But yes, as irony would have it, humans played a massive role in freeing the charr from Flame Legion religious oppression.

Even if you skim over the fact that humans again showed the destroyer gods of the Flame Legion to be false, no one can contest it was humans who killed the titan ‘gods’ at Hell’s Precipice.

That’s just history and while I don’t see charr who advertise that fact, I don’t know any educated charr who deny it outright.

When people bring this up, they act like the charr should genuflect to humanity and praise them for helping them out.

Even for those things, humanity still remained an enemy of the charr. Humanity still stole their homeland from them and threatened to push them into the sea.

Up until the end, they cursed the land rather than concede defeat. Those are some strong negative feels.

You don’t thank your enemies, especially when they want to kill you. For all of that charr history is fairly honest. Silent on certain details, sure, but not openly dishonest.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

“Still a thing”, perhaps, but until portals started opening again in Nightfall they were no longer present in significant numbers in charr territory after the Titan Source quest. There’s no evidence of any mass turning of the charr against the titans – and until given a push by the Ebon Vanguard, it’s not credible that the Fierce warband could have been running around killing any titans that remained under the noses of the Flame Legion. As Konig points out, the rebellion never really took off until humans intervened. arguably, they had a limited role to play in fighting the Destroyers that Burntsoul had… but while it’s been a while since I did that mission, from memory most of the warband hung back to “make sure nobody escaped” while it was humans and the Armoured Saurus that charged in.

The claim that they killed their gods is, at best, allegorical of throwing off the chains of religious oppression. They did not kill their gods. Humans did.

Now, this is not to say that charr should genefluct to humans or anything. History is history, and the human PCs killed the charr gods as part of fighting the charr (and other threats) not because they were acting for the benefit of the charr.

That said, we have plenty of cases of charr, both NPCs and players who favour them, attempting to lord it over other races, particularly humans, proclaiming their superiority and using terms such as “meat” and “mice”. I think it’s perfectly appropriate in those circumstances to deflate them by pointing out that no, actually, humans killed their gods, and that the charr probably wouldn’t have gotten the success they had if they hadn’t been part of a plot to destroy the world which, by the way, was stopped by human heroes. You’re welcome.

For charr-sympathising players to take offense at human-sympathising players for pointing this out is a pretty clear-cut case of the pot calling the kettle black.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

“Still a thing”, perhaps, but until portals started opening again in Nightfall they were no longer present in significant numbers in charr territory after the Titan Source quest.

The fact that portals were opening up to begin with and titans were certainly a present demon (not to mention more than a few charr who found themselves in the realm for their mucking with em’) supports the fact that titans (destroyers, fire demons) were certainly an element of charr life until Flame Legion domination was thrown off.

This revolution was charr exclusive. They did that for themselves. Humans got the ball rolling in that regard as previously mentioned, but it was the charr who cleaned up and ultimately killed their ‘gods’, and overthrew the mooks who were lording these false deities over them.

The Realm of Torment remained a thing even after Kormir ascended to godhood, per the game. Sometime between then and GW2, it can be assumed that Kormir fixed the RoT. Maybe…

At any rate, the Flame Legion charr in GW2 can’t summon titans anymore. We don’t see any titans in game. The closest they get are displays of searing magic, assorted fire elementals and imps, along with their flame effigies.

And of course I’m assuming since destroyers can obviously be killed and the fact that they’re very prone to friendly fire their “adherents”, the Flame Legion have long given up that avenue.

That said, we have plenty of cases of charr, both NPCs and players who favour them, attempting to lord it over other races, particularly humans, proclaiming their superiority and using terms such as “meat” and “mice”. I think it’s perfectly appropriate in those circumstances to deflate them by pointing out that no, actually, humans killed their gods, and that the charr probably wouldn’t have gotten the success they had if they hadn’t been part of a plot to destroy the world which, by the way, was stopped by human heroes. You’re welcome.

For charr-sympathising players to take offense at human-sympathising players for pointing this out is a pretty clear-cut case of the pot calling the kettle black.

“You want a cookie, mouse? You helped. Noted.”

“You still stole our lands, threatened to push us into the sea, and your dead god is responsible for the darkest time in history for our people.

“Your living ‘god’ is largely responsible for your expansionism into our lands to begin with.”

“But thanks. Really. Enjoy your visit to Ascalon. Be sure to keep your paperwork handy.”

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

While the Titans were influencing charr society beforehand, they weren’t present on Tyria in significant numbers until the opening of the Door of Komalie. Their presence was likely only a handful that slipped through the cracks in the prison, like the Fortune Teller in Cantha and Terick in Orr. Likely, the Titans in the charr territories were simply a handful that served as gods that most charr never even directly saw until the opening of the Door gave them enough to become an army. And it’s likely that most of that initial handful became the leaders of the invasion that was repelled in the Ascalonian Titan Quests.

There’s no evidence that any portals were open in that region during Nightfall, although the possibility cannot be ruled out either – however, the charr we see in the Realm of Torment are implied to have ended up there due to being caught in the Cataclysm, similar to some human souls we also find there. Certainly, though, any such portals would have ceased being a source for new titans before Pyre’s rebellion started.

And in that respect: When we find Pyre’s rebellion, it’s a single warband, most of which was on the charr equivalent of Death Row. We destroy the last Titan in the area ourselves, and Pyre’s group is not exactly portrayed as one that has been successfully hunting down the other Titans before this time – one would expect Pyre to have boasted about such if he had. The rebellion didn’t gain that sort of strength until after the human heroes had already done the heavy lifting.

It’s possible that the “gods” were effigies raised by the Flame Legion for the Plains of Golgoth battle, but there’s no evidence that the rebellion had any significant role in killing off the titans or defeating the destroyers.

Additionally, it’s worth noting that this is just one case of falsehood in the charr history. Another, for instance, is the claim of Rurik being a tyrant: we see Rurik in action, and he does not have a tyrannical nature.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.