Guild Wars 2

Assuming the gods are in danger of the Elder Dragons eating them or they simply don’t want humans to be too reliant on them, I have a theory on something.
It is that Melandru is, or merged with, the Pale Tree to create the Dream. We know that there is another Pale Tree and it is assumed that it does not have the Dream since the Sylvari that came from it has the sense of nothingness, but it is also unknown whether this is due to being so far away or otherwise. While virtues and other things were given to our Pale Tree by Ronan and Ventari, that does not mean that another Pale Tree simply has no consciousness whatsoever. I believe the Dream is part of Melandru’s plan in indirectly trying to help Tyria by both giving virtue to the Sylvari and moving them to her own advantage. I also think that it was due to the fact that Melandru added magic to the Tree that the Dream can exist in Tyria, but the Pale Tree without this abundance of power can’t create this “community channel”.
Her element and description fit the Avatar of the Pale Tree, which is female for another unknown reason. The Gods could hide, but I find it unlikely that they would completely leave humans alone or Tyria alone to fend for itself, so some, or just Melandru, decided to watch from the sidelines with a few hints here and there.

Opinion?

I personally don’t think Melandru would merge with the Pale Tree because that would actually put her in danger. The Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, but that doesn’t mean the Pale Tree couldn’t be destroyed by the dragons or their minions, and if Melandru had joined with the Pale Tree she wouldn’t be very safe.
I think it’s just far more likely that they’ve gone into their own realms.

The Dream exists independent of the Pale Tree, and supposedly predates the Pale Tree too. The White Stag, for instance, has direct access to the Dream of Dreams just like the Pale Tree does. And the Pale Tree is mentioned to be the Dream’s caretaker, unknowing of the Dream’s origins which implies that she herself merely found the Dream of Dreams and tasked herself with the caretaker charge.

@FlamingFoxx: During the Cathedral of Silence story step, Priestess Rhia (sp?) mentions that the gods’ location is unknown, but it is known that they are no longer in the Mists – which is where their realms reside. So it is far more likely that they are on a world somewhere, rather than their realms.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Dream exists independent of the Pale Tree, and supposedly predates the Pale Tree too. The White Stag, for instance, has direct access to the Dream of Dreams just like the Pale Tree does. And the Pale Tree is mentioned to be the Dream’s caretaker, unknowing of the Dream’s origins which implies that she herself merely found the Dream of Dreams and tasked herself with the caretaker charge.

@FlamingFoxx: During the Cathedral of Silence story step, Priestess Rhia (sp?) mentions that the gods’ location is unknown, but it is known that they are no longer in the Mists – which is where their realms reside. So it is far more likely that they are on a world somewhere, rather than their realms.

So Kormir fixed up Abbadons old realm and then just left. Sounds ridiculous but I’ll take your word for it, she never was the brightest cookie.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@FlamingFoxx: During the Cathedral of Silence story step, Priestess Rhia (sp?) mentions that the gods’ location is unknown, but it is known that they are no longer in the Mists – which is where their realms reside. So it is far more likely that they are on a world somewhere, rather than their realms.

Incorrect. It is said in the Speaker of the Dead story step:

Priestess Rhie: No one knows. Not into the Mists, that’s for certain. Perhaps they simply want to allow us to decide our own fates.

Well, Melaggan err… Melandru might be dead.

Ridiculous. The quaggan might have seen the corruption of an underwater – or secluded temple on a remote island – Melandru shrine with the same huge statue as the one found in the Cathedral of Verdance, and their butter-ball brain interpreted that as the death of their deity. Or one of Melandru’s avatars, say a sea-dwlling Watcher, remained on Tyria, and it died giving a chance for the quaggan to flee, much like how Owl sacrificed herself to save the norn.

The Six Gods were alive at Exodus – Abaddon in a reduced form, though -, they were alive during Nightfall, a thousand years later (sans Abaddon)… it is nigh inconceivable to think any of them would’ve died in 250 years without some huge consequence or backlash. Especially when the stars and the sky show major events happening across the Mists as well as on Tyria. By now someone would’ve seen a supernova or a new star or something implying such.

When a god dies, it’s magic is released and that’s a huge danger because it can explode wildly. But if there’s a dragon to absorb that magic instead…

Then Tyria is f***ed. Is Tyria kitten’d by a dragon empowered by the eternal divine energies of a god? Nope.

Thalador.4218:

Then Tyria is f***ed. Is Tyria kitten’d by a dragon empowered by the eternal divine energies of a god? Nope.

The dragons don’t make much use of their magic other than creating minions.
They don’t have big motivations other than eating magic and destroying whatever it’s on their way.
I think that if a dragon has eaten a god, it just has a full belly and that’s all. It’s not very more dangerous than before, just well fed.
This is because I think that dragons are made of magic and they eat it because they’re made of it like we eat food.
If we eat an ox, it doesn’t empower us with the ox strength.

Thalador.4218:

Incorrect. It is said in the Speaker of the Dead story step:

Priestess Rhie: No one knows. Not into the Mists, that’s for certain. Perhaps they simply want to allow us to decide our own fates.

Meh, knew it was from Rhie, just mixed up which of the two instances she’s in that it’s said. 8D

@Ludovicus: The difference between us eating an ox and a dragon eating a god is that a gods’ magic is indestructible and the one who absorbs it gains that power of godhood, just as Kormir usurped Abaddon. So if the DSD ate Melandru, then the DSD would not only be an Elder Dragon, but a Dragon God.

Similarly, the Elder Dragons seem to gain strength as they eat more magic, perhaps this is indeed akin to simply not starving, but it’s really impossible to be certain.

Nonetheless, eating a god would definitely make it stronger than otherwise. And give it the domain of the god alongside the Elder Dragons’ own natural domain.

Either way, irregardless of Melaggan’s state, I doubt that Melaggan=Melandru in the first place.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Ludovicus: The difference between us eating an ox and a dragon eating a god is that a gods’ magic is indestructible and the one who absorbs it gains that power of godhood, just as Kormir usurped Abaddon. So if the DSD ate Melandru, then the DSD would not only be an Elder Dragon, but a Dragon God.

We’ve seen Kormir absorbing Abaddon’s magic due to the gift that the gods gave to her. But a god’s magic it’s not indestructible, it is jut too much to dissipate without issues like realm + continent blasting explosions on its own.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Similarly, the Elder Dragons seem to gain strength as they eat more magic, perhaps this is indeed akin to simply not starving, but it’s really impossible to be certain.

Nonetheless, eating a god would definitely make it stronger than otherwise. And give it the domain of the god alongside the Elder Dragons’ own natural domain.

A dragon eating a mirror that ports you to places doesn’t gain the ability to port things. We saw how Kormir absorbed Abaddon’s power via the gift of the gods. And she was indeed a proper vessel for such power. But we know the dragons do not get imbued in the magic they eat. My theory is that they just eat it for their nourishment. This would mean that a dragon could eat a god without becoming one.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Either way, irregardless of Melaggan’s state, I doubt that Melaggan=Melandru in the first place.

There’s more evidence stating that Melandru is Melaggan than stating that they’re separate beings. (see the PAX reference bellow the wiki article)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Melaggan

Whether or not Melandru is Melaggan, I find it highly unlikely that she is dead. I mean the death of a god should be something big to be expanded upon in my mind. There is every possibility that the quaggan misinterpreted the situation or made assumptions. Either way, much like you will not believe Zhaitan is dead, I will not believe Melandru is dead until it is made lore.

Narcemus.1348:

Whether or not Melandru is Melaggan, I find it highly unlikely that she is dead. I mean the death of a god should be something big to be expanded upon in my mind. There is every possibility that the quaggan misinterpreted the situation or made assumptions. Either way, much like you will not believe Zhaitan is dead, I will not believe Melandru is dead until it is made lore.

Yeah. There’s as much lore saying Zhaitan is dead as there’s saying the same about Melandru. The only difference is that we’ve seen Zhaitan falling from a tower, defeated.

Ludovicus.7980:

We’ve seen Kormir absorbing Abaddon’s magic due to the gift that the gods gave to her. But a god’s magic it’s not indestructible, it is jut too much to dissipate without issues like realm + continent blasting explosions on its own.

I do not believe Abaddon to be an eternal god. There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he may be supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Apostate#Reward_dialogue

All evidence and in-universe research points to that their power is indestructible. That is why it was going rampant and manifested after Abaddon’s death.

Ludovicus.7980:

A dragon eating a mirror that ports you to places doesn’t gain the ability to port things. We saw how Kormir absorbed Abaddon’s power via the gift of the gods. And she was indeed a proper vessel for such power. But we know the dragons do not get imbued in the magic they eat. My theory is that they just eat it for their nourishment. This would mean that a dragon could eat a god without becoming one.

How Kormir was able to absorb Abaddon’s power is never really shown. The avatars said words, but we saw no actual physical action taken, same with the blessing. I’d like to believe there was something, mind you, but nothing really proves that a dragon couldn’t absorb that power to empower himself.

Besides, we know that taking in magic empowers someone. Duncan the Black, Mallyx the Unyielding, Shiro Tagachi, Gaheron Baelfire, Kudu, and more have all either done so or tried and was considered a thread for trying.

Ludovicus.7980:

There’s more evidence stating that Melandru is Melaggan than stating that they’re separate beings. (see the PAX reference bellow the wiki article) http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Melaggan

A slip of the tongue is hardly what I’d call strong evidence, but that’s not something to really discuss here.

There’s always the chance though that it was the gods convening together and deciding that Kormir would be the best suited replacement. Because of this they said a few words that they knew humans would take as law, and humans decided that Kormir was the only one who could do it. It’s not as cool of an idea, but it is a possibility. As Konig said, it is a situation where there is no visible evidence of this “blessing” given by the Avatar of Lyssa.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Apostate#Reward_dialogue

All evidence and in-universe research points to that their power is indestructible. That is why it was going rampant and manifested after Abaddon’s death.

Well, I don’t think the apostate knew about the dragons. And one NPC’s opinion is hardly a solid evidence.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How Kormir was able to absorb Abaddon’s power is never really shown. The avatars said words, but we saw no actual physical action taken, same with the blessing. I’d like to believe there was something, mind you, but nothing really proves that a dragon couldn’t absorb that power to empower himself.

Besides, we know that taking in magic empowers someone. Duncan the Black, Mallyx the Unyielding, Shiro Tagachi, Gaheron Baelfire, Kudu, and more have all either done so or tried and was considered a thread for trying.

But the dragons are different, they eat magic but they do not become more and more powerful as they do, they just eat it. No other being is able to eat magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A slip of the tongue is hardly what I’d call strong evidence, but that’s not something to really discuss here.

So you’re saying there’s more evidence stating that Melandru is alive?
Why isn’t this place right to discuss this?
Isn’t this thread about the disappearance of the gods?

No, what he is stating Ludo is that this isn’t the place to discuss the validity of taking that statement (your video) as lore. My guess is that there has been some in length discussions/debates on the subject that he does not wish to repeat.

As for the dragons not gaining strength, actually it is obvious that they are doing just that. I mean from the perspective in game it could be stated that they are merely going from a state of near starvation to being well fed, which in turn would make them stronger, but at the same time none of the dragons have eaten magical artifacts of any major significance. We could not say that all of the artifacts in Orr combined would equal up to the magical worth of even half of a god, let alone a whole god. The effect on the dragon could be extremely significant, and I honestly believe that if ArenaNet does have this happen, and they do not have something occur because of it, they have missed a major opportunity.

Narcemus.1348:

No, what he is stating Ludo is that this isn’t the place to discuss the validity of taking that statement (your video) as lore. My guess is that there has been some in length discussions/debates on the subject that he does not wish to repeat.

Oh, I see. You’re both right, this is not the place to discuss that.

But back to Melandru, we have some npc opinions that say that the gods are not in the mists. And some other npc opinions that say that Melaggan is Melandru and Melaggan is dead.

I know quaggans are not as reliable as asura in terms of information gathering. But they’re somehow quite sure about the last two statements.

Narcemus.1348:

As for the dragons not gaining strength, actually it is obvious that they are doing just that. I mean from the perspective in game it could be stated that they are merely going from a state of near starvation to being well fed, which in turn would make them stronger, but at the same time none of the dragons have eaten magical artifacts of any major significance. We could not say that all of the artifacts in Orr combined would equal up to the magical worth of even half of a god, let alone a whole god. The effect on the dragon could be extremely significant, and I honestly believe that if ArenaNet does have this happen, and they do not have something occur because of it, they have missed a major opportunity.

That’s what I see, they’re becoming stronger because they’re becoming well fed, and that’s all.

What could be questionable is whether or not they have the belly to eat a god.
Are they capable of assimilating that tremendous amount of magic at once?

Ludovicus.7980:

The dragons don’t make much use of their magic other than creating minions.
They don’t have big motivations other than eating magic and destroying whatever it’s on their way.
I think that if a dragon has eaten a god, it just has a full belly and that’s all. It’s not very more dangerous than before, just well fed.
This is because I think that dragons are made of magic and they eat it because they’re made of it like we eat food.
If we eat an ox, it doesn’t empower us with the ox strength.

Your analogy is horrible. When you eat an ox, you don’t leech out its very essence that makes it tick, corrupt it, and spit it back into the body like dragons do. And then there’s the fact that we are speaking of a nigh unexplainable radiation/field/physical law that is the fundamental part of a fantasy world… magic – as Konig brought up in those examples – isn’t just protein, fat, sugar, vitamins, etc. It is pure energy that can diminish as well as swell, and in either case, the user or consumer becomes weaker or stronger, respectively.

It is proven in the lvl 20-30 Orders storyline for asura characters that a dragon minion can become even more powerful by absorbing magic. If the minion can do it, you can bet your kitten its lord master can, too.

Also, if a dragon ever gained the level of power that a god possesses, it would have little to fear of concurence anymore. One by one it could easily engage, kill, and feast on other Elder Dragons or other supremely powerful beings… with minimal risks. It wouldn’t have to rely on pesky, slow minions anymore.

Ludovicus.7980:

Well, I don’t think the apostate knew about the dragons. And one NPC’s opinion is hardly a solid evidence.

I fail to see how the existence of the Elder Dragon holds any relevance on the destructibility of a god’s very essence.

And no, normally one NPC’s opinion is hardly a solid evidence, however…

1. GW1 worked the lore of subjectivity and objectivity differently, where there was little to no differentiation between the two.
2. The Apostate was studying the subject for who knows how long, so he’d be considered an expert in the field. Would you simply dismiss Einstein’s comments on energy conversion with the wave of a hand? If not, why would you for the Apostate?

Ludovicus.7980:

But the dragons are different, they eat magic but they do not become more and more powerful as they do, they just eat it. No other being is able to eat magic.

How do you know this? Who is to say they don’t become more powerful?

Besides, keep in mind that they’re also constantly exuding the magic they consume, and twist, in the form of corruption. Minion making and twisting the environment. So they’re both consuming and exuding magic. And we know that they become weaker as they don’t consume but continue exuding. Logically speaking, if continual exuding weakens, then continual consuming would strengthen. Along with this, Jormag needed to consume Sons of Svanir magic in order to gather strength to awaken (which he did via Drakkar).

And wrong. Imps consume or at least absorb magic – and they grow, both physically and in strength, as they do so.

Ludovicus.7980:

So you’re saying there’s more evidence stating that Melandru is alive?
Why isn’t this place right to discuss this?
Isn’t this thread about the disappearance of the gods?

What I’m saying is that there’s nothing solid to indicate that Melandru and Melaggan is the same.

This isn’t the right place because the topic is about where the gods are hiding, not whether or not Melandru and Melaggan is the same – something which can neither be proven nor disproven – by extension of what Narcemus was saying about not discussing the validity of the comment, which is the only point of evidence besides human belief towards Melandru=Melaggan – and it’s not able to be disproven because the only thing to point against it is quaggan belief. We know almost nothing of Melaggan other than it being the quaggan goddess of the bounty of the sea (which despite quaggan comment, is similar to the goddess of both flora and fauna, as that’d include the bounty of the sea).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How do you know this? Who is to say they don’t become more powerful?

Besides, keep in mind that they’re also constantly exuding the magic they consume, and twist, in the form of corruption. Minion making and twisting the environment. So they’re both consuming and exuding magic. And we know that they become weaker as they don’t consume but continue exuding. Logically speaking, if continual exuding weakens, then continual consuming would strengthen. Along with this, Jormag needed to consume Sons of Svanir magic in order to gather strength to awaken (which he did via Drakkar).

And wrong. Imps consume or at least absorb magic – and they grow, both physically and in strength, as they do so.

Yeeah, I gotta agree with this. Oola says we embody magic. Kormir shows that we can’t just eat it at will. But there’s nothing to say we can’t take on more power if we do gain the ability to absord it like the gods gifted Kormir with. And all the examples Konig previously gave show that when we do get the ability to take more magic, we do get more powerful: Duncan the Black, Mallyx the Unyielding, Shiro Tagachi, Gaheron Baelfire, and Kudu.

Here’s a thought, so just stick with me here. There are 6 dragons, 6 gods(including the former human Kormir)
*Zaithan=Grenth
Primordus=Balthazar
Kralkatorrik(sp?)=Lyssa
Jormag=Dwayna
Jungle Dragon=Melandru
Deep Sea Dragon= Kormir/ would have been Abbadon
Giant magical beings worshipped as gods, not really hard to see how it could work. Of course it’s not hard to imagine that each dragon could be each gods arch-nemesis.
I await the criticism for my abstract though.

Thoeries been proposed a few times but it’s a slim to none chance. A-net confirms in interview that the elder dragons are older than the gods. And the actual powers of the gods and Elder dragons only link up superficially.

no more comments.

Akechi Hotaru.7129:

Here’s a thought, so just stick with me here. There are 6 dragons, 6 gods(including the former human Kormir)
*Zaithan=Grenth
Primordus=Balthazar
Kralkatorrik(sp?)=Lyssa
Jormag=Dwayna
Jungle Dragon=Melandru
Deep Sea Dragon= Kormir/ would have been Abbadon
Giant magical beings worshipped as gods, not really hard to see how it could work. Of course it’s not hard to imagine that each dragon could be each gods arch-nemesis.
I await the criticism for my abstract though.

I think there is a mistake.
I guess Zaithan use Dwayna power and Jormag use Grenth power.

Dwayna is the godness of Life, so risen (like the name of category minion say) are rise in a new life by the power of Dwayna used by zaithan.

A dragon with grenth’s power will use minion like creature of UW (aatxe or similar) or iced creature.

Grenth is the god of ice, so jormarg has a perfect role with his power.

DSD have/use Mellaggan power, maybe.
Human doesn’t revere and belive in Mellagan because they are a land race, but it doesn’t mean that she don’t exist

We know quaggan belive in mellaggan, maybe largos too.

Kormir’s dragon maybe will show in a Elona campain, ‘cause i’ve read somewhere Tyria (the continet) have 6 dragon, but the other continent could have dragons too.

Anyway sorry for my rusty english.

On dragons consuming magic – it has been stated somewhere that the magic a dragon consumes goes to empowering the dragon or is redistributed to empower its minions (which is part of the reason why some minions are quite intelligent and others are expendable cannon fodder or even suicide bombers – the more power invested in a minion, the more capacity it has for independant thought and tactics). So a dragon consuming a god would most likely result ina significant powering up of that dragon, as well as, as Konig states, adding the god’s domain to the dragon’s own specialties.

Dustfinger.9510:

Thoeries been proposed a few times but it’s a slim to none chance. A-net confirms in interview that the elder dragons are older than the gods. And the actual powers of the gods and Elder dragons only link up superficially.

Actually, their words were:

“The dragons have always been here. The gods predate humans, but not by much.”

It certainly implies that the dragons are older, but when you look deeper at it, what they really did is dodge the question while speaking up the dragons as an ancient antediluvian threat.

Mind you, there are plenty of other reasons to discard the meme about there being a one-to-one equivalency between dragons and gods.

nihavel.6592:

i’ve read somewhere Tyria (the continet) have 6 dragon, but the other continent could have dragons too.

Technically, the continent of Tyria only has 3 confirmed dragons. Jormag woke north of the known continent of Tyria (whether it’d be considered “Tyria” all the way to the arctic seas is unknown though), and Mordremoth’s location is utterly unknown, though heavily implied to be in the Maguuma Jungle – which would mean 4 confirmed dragons, with one heading into Tyria (that one being Jormag) or laternatively 5 dragons in continental Tyria.

The DSD is not in continental Tyria at all, and is more likely to be closer to Elona than Tyria (depending on where in the Unending Ocean it is – and how far the Unending Ocean reaches).

draxynnic.3719:

On dragons consuming magic – it has been stated somewhere that the magic a dragon consumes goes to empowering the dragon or is redistributed to empower its minions (which is part of the reason why some minions are quite intelligent and others are expendable cannon fodder or even suicide bombers – the more power invested in a minion, the more capacity it has for independant thought and tactics). So a dragon consuming a god would most likely result ina significant powering up of that dragon, as well as, as Konig states, adding the god’s domain to the dragon’s own specialties.

Dustfinger.9510:

Thoeries been proposed a few times but it’s a slim to none chance. A-net confirms in interview that the elder dragons are older than the gods. And the actual powers of the gods and Elder dragons only link up superficially.

Actually, their words were:

“The dragons have always been here. The gods predate humans, but not by much.”

It certainly implies that the dragons are older, but when you look deeper at it, what they really did is dodge the question while speaking up the dragons as an ancient antediluvian threat.

Mind you, there are plenty of other reasons to discard the meme about there being a one-to-one equivalency between dragons and gods.

I don’t see a difference between the implication and the confirmation. They confirm the ED’s have always been there. They confirm the gods have a specific “start date”. And we know the humans have a specifc “start date” that is vastly younger than the elder races, much less the ED’s who have always been here.

Are you saying the implication could be wrong or are you clarifying the actual wording? (Genuine question directed at the message here )

All they really said unquestionably was “the Elder Dragons have been on Tyria their whole existence. The Six Gods arrived on Tyria shortly before humans.” Beyond that is merely interpretation – it is possible the ED have been around since Tyria’s creation (hence “always been here”) but that is just one possible interpretation of the line. The “lowest” of the spectrum (aka what’s least deniable) of possibilities is what I initially said.

In other words, “the Elder Dragons have existed on Tyria longer than the Six Gods have been on the world” – at most, you can take the dragon line to mean “they have been on Tyria since Tyria’s creation” however, we do not know how old the gods or humanity are in the multiverse, nor how old Tyria is (and in turn, the Elder Dragons).

That is to say, what (I think) drax meant was that nothing says that the ED are older than the gods, just that they’ve been on the world longer.

Ah! I get it. So I am incorrect in stating that the ED’s are older. It is more correct to say that they are older on Tyria. You are indeed correct Drax and Konig. Thank you for the clarification. My apologies.