Gorseval - Possible Spoilers / Speculation
Well, the Bloodstone is kind of right there, I would love if it was related to that, that was be a really cool way to bring it together and that would explain the human souls.
The titans coming back? It wouldn’t make sense, Abaddon is dead, dead-dead, he’s not coming back. I don’t expect the titans, of which he constructed, would even exist anymore. Guild Wars 1 was big about exterminating the titans because they were very dangerous creatures, at least in the lore, one of the most threatening types of creatures in the game.
The mursaat were heavily teased with the Exalted, but I don’t know, I’m kind of under the impression that if they came back for any reason, the elder dragons would have to be contained. I honestly have no guesses as to how the Mursaat would be reintroduced. I think we’ll see a forgotten before a Mursaat, or at least know of their fate. I do not by any reason think the Mursaat are dead, Arah shows that it’s perfectly viable for them to still be alive, and they were being teased at with Heart of Thorns, the idea of them is still on the table.
Going back to the bloodstone idea, I think that’s a very good candidate. I looked at an overlapped version of the maps, it’s right next to where I believe one of the Guild Hall maps is? I think that’s a prime candidate for them to add a raid location at given that it’s adjacent to known land. From the pictures they’ve shown, it is in the Maguuma isn’kitten
The titans coming back? It wouldn’t make sense, Abaddon is dead, dead-dead, he’s not coming back. I don’t expect the titans, of which he constructed, would even exist anymore. Guild Wars 1 was big about exterminating the titans because they were very dangerous creatures, at least in the lore, one of the most threatening types of creatures in the game.
Abaddon didn’t actually make the Titans. They were made by twisting tormented souls, and their production in the FoFC was oversaw by The Fury, who while working for Abaddon, and later Mallyx, at that time, was originally a servant of Dhuum.
So, if someone had a very large amount of tormented souls laying around, and the skills needed to manipulate them, anyone could theoretically produce Titans of their own. They were just easy to produce in such large numbers in the FoFC since the Realm of Torment in general has access to such vast amounts of tormented souls floating around.
The titans coming back? It wouldn’t make sense, Abaddon is dead, dead-dead, he’s not coming back. I don’t expect the titans, of which he constructed, would even exist anymore. Guild Wars 1 was big about exterminating the titans because they were very dangerous creatures, at least in the lore, one of the most threatening types of creatures in the game.
Abaddon didn’t actually make the Titans. They were made by twisting tormented souls, and their production in the FoFC was oversaw by The Fury, who while working for Abaddon, and later Mallyx, at that time, was originally a servant of Dhuum.
So, if someone had a very large amount of tormented souls laying around, and the skills needed to manipulate them, anyone could theoretically produce Titans of their own. They were just easy to produce in such large numbers in the FoFC since the Realm of Torment in general has access to such vast amounts of tormented souls floating around.
To add to this, there is actually a titan you can fight after Abaddon’s death, Ignus the Eternal. So they are technically still around.
You don’t win friends with salad! Sorry I just got caught up in the rhythm.
Hmm… I don’t think that’s entirely going to be the case.
First, while close the Bloodstone isn’t on the map, unless they’re shifting the raid map’s position from BWE3 or using a bloodstone that isn’t the Bloodstone Fen one. Per the original map dug out by that_shaman, Gorseval would be further north than The Wilds. Completely out of GW1 lands. So would anything, really, as the Vale Guardian’s platform would be at the western edge of The Wilds.
Regarding the soul batteries “losing power” – I don’t think so. The soul batteries were all taken to the Ring of Fire. So it wouldn’t be a case of “soul batteries losing their power”, as they wouldn’t be left there. However, that doesn’t mean the White Mantle haven’t continued making new uses for soul batteries for some other purpose. Souls are, after all, power. In the raid, it is possible we kill some White Mantle, destroy a threat via destroying soul batteries, which unleashes a mass amount of souls that then creates Gorseval via the corpses of the White Mantle we killed.
However, I posit a different potential given that we’re off the GW1 map with the raid:
Above Gorseval in the trailer, we see a massive swirling vortex of blue and black. This vortex is NOT one of a kind. Not entirely. Those who played Ascent to Madness this year may have looked up at the sky to see a massive swirling vortex of black and orange, with kitten that leads into Lion’s Arch (the original portal that Thorn made back in 2012).
There’s also a part where we have to outrun a stampede of hostile souls (perhaps the very souls that make up Gorseval).
Further, the place is called Spirit Vale. Does this name seem… similar to anyone?
My theory?
We’re going into the Mists – possibly the Underworld – with this raid. And Gorseval is a titan.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
So having watched that guild chat episode in the full, and I am now convinced that the above theory is 100% wrong.
Ronald makes a CRITICAL slip of the tongue after talking about how it’s formed and talking more about its animation.
@29:05:
“I didn’t want to make something generic and, you know, something we’ve seen before in other dragon-ah.”
He cuts himself after saying “dragon” and returns talking to the model animation.
Gorseval also has tentacles, a stated case of DSD corruption.
I think Gorseval is a dragon champion of the DSD, given that the raid is said to be about the “next story” and there are hints to the DSD coming soon in HoT promotion/HoT’s ending (we got that three dragon heads rising from tidal waves assaulting LA, ley line energy going to the Unending Ocean at HoT end, we got Chak burring from depths but what’s in the depths layer of the Tangled Depths? huge underwater tunnels – Drax promoted the theory Chak are DSD dragon minions and Gorseval isn’t all that different from them – more of an undead than insectoid version).
The tentacles – compared to spinal cords – also reminds me of the tentacles that grew in the karka hive a bit to me.
And about Chak/Gorseval/DSD connection… Chak hives have bone tendril-looking tentacle spirals in their hives. Curious…
Alternatively, could it be Zhaitan returning? They didn’t say human souls, as far as I’m aware. What if they’re dragon souls?
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
So having watched that guild chat episode in the full, and I am now convinced that the above theory is 100% wrong.
Ronald makes a CRITICAL slip of the tongue after talking about how it’s formed and talking more about its animation.
@29:05:
“I didn’t want to make something generic and, you know, something we’ve seen before in other dragon-ah.”
He cuts himself after saying “dragon” and returns talking to the model animation.
Gorseval also has tentacles, a stated case of DSD corruption.
I think Gorseval is a dragon champion of the DSD, given that the raid is said to be about the “next story” and there are hints to the DSD coming soon in HoT promotion/HoT’s ending (we got that three dragon heads rising from tidal waves assaulting LA, ley line energy going to the Unending Ocean at HoT end, we got Chak burring from depths but what’s in the depths layer of the Tangled Depths? huge underwater tunnels – Drax promoted the theory Chak are DSD dragon minions and Gorseval isn’t all that different from them – more of an undead than insectoid version).
The tentacles – compared to spinal cords – also reminds me of the tentacles that grew in the karka hive a bit to me.
And about Chak/Gorseval/DSD connection… Chak hives have bone tendril-looking tentacle spirals in their hives. Curious…
Alternatively, could it be Zhaitan returning? They didn’t say human souls, as far as I’m aware. What if they’re dragon souls?
They didn’t say “human souls” but there’s human arms, I’m going to say it’s safe to assume human because dragons don’t have arms like that. At the very least, the arms are something at least similar to humans in terms of arms. This is why I like the bloodstone theory/soul battery theories because that’s really the only logical way you’d get a bunch of human souls in that scenario… or we could get something far crazier.
rewatched the video He talks about the souls escaping [something] and forming that.
Also, where this thing about dragon heads in the tidal waves? A source on that would be fantastic! It’s not that I don’t believe you, I would like to see it.
If the Deep Sea Dragon is involved than it’s the Elder Dragon of Bugs and Souls it would seem.
Facing a Ritualist Elder Dragon does sound challenging… The Mists would likely be his weakness.
@Mushroomz: That only means it was made out of human bodies. That’s what it sounds like Gorseval is. A fleshy construct made to house souls. The souls themselves are in that blue back bubble-area.
@Mickey: I wouldn’t consider it “Bugs and Souls” though I certainly see how you weren’t there. I’ve been thinking Jormag is souls though. I think just like how Zhaitan trapped souls, the DSD might have too.
In the end, most likely scenario is likely to be “Gorseval is a titan” or something along those lines, being freed from the Realm of Torment. And that the Chak are just never-known-before ley line eating bugs.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
@Mushroomz: That only means it was made out of human bodies. That’s what it sounds like Gorseval is. A fleshy construct made to house souls. The souls themselves are in that blue back bubble-area.
@Mickey: I wouldn’t consider it “Bugs and Souls” though I certainly see how you weren’t there. I’ve been thinking Jormag is souls though. I think just like how Zhaitan trapped souls, the DSD might have too.
In the end, most likely scenario is likely to be “Gorseval is a titan” or something along those lines, being freed from the Realm of Torment. And that the Chak are just never-known-before ley line eating bugs.
The Corseval is not a “fleshy construct”, it is the congregation of the souls, he specifically says that in the video, the body is how the souls manifest and the arms are to emphasize the composition.
That’s not how I understood him, nor would it make much sense for a group of entities that were very clearly ethereal (read: not fleshy) make a fleshy body without any materials that is flesh.
Further, in the video when the camera went to Gorseval’s back, he explained that the blue bubble-like thing was where the souls remain, and that if you look closely you could even see them. And you, in fact, can – the white streaks have a face at their beginnings.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
And that the Chak are just never-known-before ley line eating bugs.
To know this it would be nice to know if the Chak appeared after DSD awakened or before. I also find it suspicous that there is a Species that is eating Ley Energy and there were no Mordrem Chak in HoT.
And that the Chak are just never-known-before ley line eating bugs.
To know this it would be nice to know if the Chak appeared after DSD awakened or before. I also find it suspicous that there is a Species that is eating Ley Energy and there were no Mordrem Chak in HoT.
They at least date back to ~1170, since that’s around when Rata Novus fell. I don’t know for certain if there’s any record of them before that.
And from both the cinematic during The All as well as the Trial of Strength during City of Hope, it’s most likely that the DSD awoke between Primordus and Jormag. Primordus awoke in 1120 AE, and Jormag in 1165 AE. That would place the DSD’s awakening between those two dates – all possibilities lying before 1173 when Rata Novus fell.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Alternatively, could it be Zhaitan returning? They didn’t say human souls, as far as I’m aware. What if they’re dragon souls?
Oooh I like that idea. Zhaitan was the Elder Dragon of Shadow and Death, both of which are kinda soul-y, and if Mordy is anything to go by Elder Dragons are more than just a physical body that needs to be destroyed.
But maybe that’s just me wanting a proper Zhaitan fight
Zhaitan returning at this point when Anet still has 4 living Elder Dragons to use against us would be just plain bad writing and bad business. I seriously doubt Zhaitan is coming back.
Maybe, IF GW2 lives long enough that we actually kill all six Elder Dragons, Zhaitan might return as the ultimate Elder Dragon, consuming all the energy from the deaths of the other EDs, or something like that.
One – Piken Square
If the “return of Zhaitan” is limited to a single raid, and ends right there, then I don’t think it would be “bad writing because they have 4 living Elder Dragons to use against us”. It would be more of “an attempt to fix the bad fight without fixing the bad fight”. Bad writing or good writing depends solely on how they do it.
Though given the location, I’m inclined to think it’s not related to Zhaitan, TBH. It was a thought I tossed out.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
And from both the cinematic during The All as well as the Trial of Strength during City of Hope, it’s most likely that the DSD awoke between Primordus and Jormag. Primordus awoke in 1120 AE, and Jormag in 1165 AE. That would place the DSD’s awakening between those two dates – all possibilities lying before 1173 when Rata Novus fell.
DSD woke in ~1270, all of the dragons, except Mordremoth (because of Scarlet) were 50 years apart, even bubbles. He rose after Zhaitan and before Kralkatorrik… that cutscene was riddled with errors, like Mordremoth and Zhaitan being mixed up. It’s definitely clear they normally awaken within 50 years of each other, Primordus and Mordremoth attempted to do so prematurely, with Mordremoth being successful. So I’m it appears, ~1270 is when the aquatic races flee inland, which is the only confirmed event Bubbles was responsible for.
And from both the cinematic during The All as well as the Trial of Strength during City of Hope, it’s most likely that the DSD awoke between Primordus and Jormag. Primordus awoke in 1120 AE, and Jormag in 1165 AE. That would place the DSD’s awakening between those two dates – all possibilities lying before 1173 when Rata Novus fell.
DSD woke in ~1270, all of the dragons, except Mordremoth (because of Scarlet) were 50 years apart, even bubbles. He rose after Zhaitan and before Kralkatorrik… that cutscene was riddled with errors, like Mordremoth and Zhaitan being mixed up. It’s definitely clear they normally awaken within 50 years of each other, Primordus and Mordremoth attempted to do so prematurely, with Mordremoth being successful. So I’m it appears, ~1270 is when the aquatic races flee inland, which is the only confirmed event Bubbles was responsible for.
We only know that DSD was active in 1275 but do not really know the Wake Time, because at 1275 the Underwater Races fled. Remember the Krait had an Empire underwater and judging the Krait, they fought quite a long Time before fleeing. ( After all their Cities were built around their Holy Obelisks )
It would have to be right around then, given the 50 year sequencing. UNLESS the dragon woke up early, I suppose it’s possible, one could expect that’s when it would awaken, and we have no proof to suggest it woke up early, could it have? Yes. But there’s no reason as of yet to justify that case.
We also have very little information about the Krait empire, the quaggan, and the largos, also fled, and from what I understand, their accounts were the basis on the DSD waking up as the Krait aren’t particularly friendly and only really interact with other races to either eat or enslave them.
With the 50 Year Sequence you also have to take in Account that Primordus normally would have awakened around 1080. In GW EOTN we killed the Great Destroyer and delayed his awakening for about 40 Years. Without our intervention and the Dwarven Scrifice there would be a Gap between Primordus and Jormag. A Gap that Steve could fill perfectly.
Also look at the Sequence in Ormadds Machine, the Blue Orb activated after Primordus Orb and before Jormags Orb. And the Trial has Salt Water coming after fighting a Destroyer and before fighting the Icebrood. I think that Steve just awakened very shortly after Primordus.
And from both the cinematic during The All as well as the Trial of Strength during City of Hope, it’s most likely that the DSD awoke between Primordus and Jormag. Primordus awoke in 1120 AE, and Jormag in 1165 AE. That would place the DSD’s awakening between those two dates – all possibilities lying before 1173 when Rata Novus fell.
DSD woke in ~1270, all of the dragons, except Mordremoth (because of Scarlet) were 50 years apart, even bubbles. He rose after Zhaitan and before Kralkatorrik… that cutscene was riddled with errors, like Mordremoth and Zhaitan being mixed up. It’s definitely clear they normally awaken within 50 years of each other, Primordus and Mordremoth attempted to do so prematurely, with Mordremoth being successful. So I’m it appears, ~1270 is when the aquatic races flee inland, which is the only confirmed event Bubbles was responsible for.
That was the original thought but keep in mind two things:
Primordus awoke late. If he didn’t – if he awoke when his herald was going to wake him like Jormag, Mordremoth, and likely Zhaitan did – he would have awoken 100 years before Jormag.
Kralkatorrik awoke late as well. He, unlike the other Elder Dragons, didn’t have a herald because of Glint’s betrayal. Still, he was able to awaken, but it was late.
EVERY Elder Dragon established heralds. Jormag had Drakkar, Primordus had the Great Destroyer, Kralkatorrik had Glint, Zhaitan’s was likely the Giganticus Lupicus (whom we know to be from the previous rise), and Mordremoth’s was likely those in the cave the Pale Tree’s seed and Malyck’s tree’s seed was found in. Kralkatorrik’s and Mordremoth’s heralds were changed to fight their masters, so Kralkatorrik awoke late – but Mordremoth made a sufficient back-up plan through Scarlet; Primordus’ herald was killed, and thus prolonged his awakening.
The 50 year thing was just something players noticed at first, but still questioned due to Primordus and the lack of a date for the DSD.
As Walhalla said, 1275 AE is the earliest known date of DSD activity. Which was pushing the quaggan out of their homeland. The DSD didn’t awake upon the quaggan, but the krait, and we don’t know how far apart their homelands are, nor if the krait fled immediately.
If we didn’t kill the Great Destroyer, if the Forgotten didn’t free Glint, then the awakening time/order would likely be:
Primordus ~ 1080 AE
DSD ~ 1130 AE
Jormag ~ 1180 AE
Zhaitan ~ 1230 AE
Kralkatorrik ~1280 AE
Mordremoth ~ 1330 AE
Plus/minus up to 20 years.
Primordus and Kralkatorrik’s awakenings were pushed back, thus they awoke around the same time (plus/minus 10-ish years) to the subsequent-to-awaken Elder Dragon (DSD and Mordremoth respectively).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Elder Dragon awakening times are kinda odd. Well there seems to be no advantage to not all just awakening at the same time. Those that awaken later get less time to feed on magic, and less time to secure their position. I mean by the time one Elder Dragon has awoken another has had a number of years to absorb a lot of magic, poor Mordy would only have had table scraps left if all went as it should have.
Mind you those that awaken later would face less opposition from the natives, I mean earlier EDs would have killed a fair number of the races that existed at the time. But this would only make sense if the early EDs were the most powerful and the latter were weaker, but that doesn’t seem to be the case either.
It seems like they might not compete for food. Didn’t Zhaitan essentially eat magical artifacts? Mordremoth was able to tap into more raw sources of magic through the leylines. Was it ever stated if Zhaitan or the others could do the same? If they are unable to tap into leyline magic then it may be that each dragon has a specific delivery method for its magical consumption and do not really “compete” for food. Zhaitan devours magically imbued objects. Mordremoth eats directly from leylines.
Do we have any specifics on how the others consume magic? I feel like Jormag probably consumes living essence (souls). We know they have power because soul batteries work. It wouldn’t surprise me if he has snacked on some of the lost spirits of the wild. He also has a presence in the Mists and feels like a religion almost (which, in a way, feed off of the souls of their followers).
Kralk, Primey, and especially the DSD….I have no clue how they feed.
Zhaitan tapped into the raw sources of magic through the Artesian Waters, which given later lore was likely a ley line hub itself.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
In the end, most likely scenario is likely to be “Gorseval is a titan” or something along those lines, being freed from the Realm of Torment. And that the Chak are just never-known-before ley line eating bugs.
It does look like a Demon(namely the Torment Creatures from Nightfall and Oni from Factions).
It seems like they might not compete for food. Didn’t Zhaitan essentially eat magical artifacts? Mordremoth was able to tap into more raw sources of magic through the leylines. Was it ever stated if Zhaitan or the others could do the same? If they are unable to tap into leyline magic then it may be that each dragon has a specific delivery method for its magical consumption and do not really “compete” for food. Zhaitan devours magically imbued objects. Mordremoth eats directly from leylines.
Do we have any specifics on how the others consume magic? I feel like Jormag probably consumes living essence (souls). We know they have power because soul batteries work. It wouldn’t surprise me if he has snacked on some of the lost spirits of the wild. He also has a presence in the Mists and feels like a religion almost (which, in a way, feed off of the souls of their followers).
Kralk, Primey, and especially the DSD….I have no clue how they feed.
Mordremoth also consumes magical artifacts. We’re shown this during the attack on Concordia.
It’s more of “they consumed the magic inside the artifacts” for both dragons and it’s likely the same for all others. In Honor of the Waves, the icebrood are taking artifacts from the sanctuary – having powerful icebrood kodan pick out which ones are “worth” taking. No doubt, those are magical artifacts.
The Mouth of Zhaitan consumed the magic and artifact whole, while the mordrem tendrils just siphoned the magic itself. But the principle is the same.
It would be odd, in fact, for the other four dragons to not consume magic from artifacts.
Also, Zhaitan ate magic directly from ambient magic – which is what ley lines are (just very condenced) – such as the Artesian Waters.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.