Guild Wars 2

Greyhoof Camp used to be a Krytan Village, evidenced by the stone ruins at the top of the hill. so i naturally wondered about the history of this village, which appears to be a casualty of the Centaur Wars due to the nature of the dynamic events in Kessex Hills.

i cross referenced that_shaman’s historical map of tyria ( http://thatshaman.blogspot.com/p/historical-guide.html ) to find no village during the time of The Searing through the War in Kryta (between the White Mantle and Shining Blade.) the only village around at that time was Dukutu Village, where presently resides Wallwatcher Camp to the southwest of the river, aka Halacon Cataracts.

[my observations and comments about the site]:
~ i counted the ruins of 9 stone buildings on three tiers of the hill. i will admit, however, that it’s difficult for me to be sure on that number due to the nature of the ruins. there may a building i counted as two, or maybe two that i counted as one…
~there is a well on the lowest tier to the east near the easternmost ruin. this well location leads me to believe that the lower tier contained fields for the crops.
~all the fences appear to be of Centaur construction
~i presume the villagers never built a wall due to the cliffs to the south, and also due to Fort Salma’s and Claypool Township’s nearness to the west.
~also due to there being no defensive wall, i presume that at the time the village was inhabited by Krytans, there were probably not any large scale battle in the area.

[my presumptions about the Centaur Wars based on the above observations]

~i presume that for many years, the Tamini probably had an uneasy truce with Kryta, or rather weren’t actively at war as a tribe. they were essentially bound to the Overlord’s Greatcamp and Earthwork’s Bluff settlements, or cities if you will.
~the Tamini settlements grew, but due to the lack of major conflict in Kessex Hills, the majority of the Seraph forces were directed to the Harathi conflict north of Beetletun.
~at this time i believe there were also Tamini in southeastern Queensdale as well, probably as refugees hiding in the cliffs, building there strength, and then building up the other nearby camps, such as the Cliffwatch Camp.
~the Tamini were also secretly training Bandits at Kenna’s Bandit POI in Firemane Hills, preparing for their major offensive. during this time they set up a few hidden camps in caves.
~since the majority of the Seraph were fighting the Harathi in northeastern Kryta, the Tamini’s surprise offensive went unchallenged, leading up to the attack on Shaemoor in 1325 AE (starting the human personal story)
~during this surprise offensive in early 1325 AE, i believe one of their first targets was the village at Greyhoof Camp Waypoint.

[my fanfiction account of the village, barring any official word from Anet]

i’d love to write in that fanfiction as how it really happened, but then if Anet ever expands on the lore of that village, i’d have to go back and rewrite.. and to be honest, my fanfiction isn’t the reason i posted. i’m much more interested in the flow of the Centaur War and the official history of the village

~any more speculation out there?
~is there any NPC dialogue i’ve missed that speaks of the town?

I believe that it’s referenced by the Seraph around the area, but I don’t recall anything beyond ‘there was a settlement here’. I believe they even referred to it as Greyhoof Camp when talking about the village, although I can’t imagine that was its actual name.

IIRC, the seraph officer in charge there mentions that it was a recent village taken by the centaurs not too long ago. No differing name given to the village, however.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

~i presume that for many years, the Tamini probably had an uneasy truce with Kryta, or rather weren’t actively at war as a tribe. they were essentially bound to the Overlord’s Greatcamp and Earthwork’s Bluff settlements, or cities if you will.
~the Tamini settlements grew, but due to the lack of major conflict in Kessex Hills, the majority of the Seraph forces were directed to the Harathi conflict north of Beetletun.
~at this time i believe there were also Tamini in southeastern Queensdale as well, probably as refugees hiding in the cliffs, building there strength, and then building up the other nearby camps, such as the Cliffwatch Camp.
~the Tamini were also secretly training Bandits at Kenna’s Bandit POI in Firemane Hills, preparing for their major offensive. during this time they set up a few hidden camps in caves.
~since the majority of the Seraph were fighting the Harathi in northeastern Kryta, the Tamini’s surprise offensive went unchallenged, leading up to the attack on Shaemoor in 1325 AE (starting the human personal story)
~during this surprise offensive in early 1325 AE, i believe one of their first targets was the village at Greyhoof Camp Waypoint.

1. Tamini were nomads to the north of Kryta for the most part prior to their alliance/subjugation by the Modniir. They would not have settlements or cities; Overlord’s Greatcamp and Earthwork’s Buffs are Harathi – the Harathi were in the Maguuma during GW1. These fortresses did not exist in GW1.
2. There were no centaurs living in Kryta proper during GW1 – at all. This is the focus of the Centaur War, as the centaurs were forced out of their original homeland in 300 AE, which sparked the Centaur War. It was in a down portion during GW1, but there were no centaurs in Kryta – be it Kessex Hills or Queensdale. The centaur presence in both places is due to their effective push into Krytan territory from the north. Their path was quite literally coming in from the north via Harathi Hinterlands->Gendarran Fields->Queensdale/Kessex Hills. Their presence in both places is a recent thing.
3. The centaur/bandit alliance is relatively recent thing, and extends to all centaurs not just Tamini.
4. The Tamini are the vanguard of the centaur alliance. They would have no “surprise offensive” as they are the prime offensive. They just had a strong offensive, when backed by Harathi and Modniir.

ah, yes… thank you for pointing what what i forgot to, that the Centaurs were not in Kryta in GW1… i didn’t even consider that my post may have implied that they were. it’s evident even in the side stories of GW1, that centaurs were not in Harathi Hinterlands, as that’s the area where Saul D’allessio, with the help of the Mursaat, defeated the Charr who were attempting to invade Kryta.

as a special note, it seems that the Centaurs are moving their troops through the hills and caves of the zone borders, where we players are unable to go. it’s the only explanation for them having such a large presence in Kessex and Queensdale without totally destroying all the Seraph forts at the zone portals.

for the Overlord’s Greatcamp and Earthwork Bluffs, even though they are recent, i still believe they’ve been around at least for a few decades. i base this presumption on the sheer size of the camps, which are clearly Centaur design and construction. the Centaur could have easily come in from the area north of Brisban Wildlands.

i really need to tour the various Centaur camps again. there probably were a lot more Harathi in Kessex than i’m thinking.

as for my comment on “surprise offensive”, i wasn’t trying to imply that no one saw it coming… but rather, like D-Day, the surprise was the overwhelming force of the drive that pushed through. i also presume that the bandits trained maybe only during the previous year or two (say 1323-1324 AE) also increased their attacks on supply caravans and other targets at the same time as the centaur push.

it just seems strange to me that a village in the middle of centaur territory to the south had no defenses prior to being destroyed. and that lack of defenses at Greyhoof Camp Village leads me to believe there was little to no danger before the main push. a false sense of security due to low hostilities in the area. which is also why i applied the “surprise attack” monicker to the offensive. granted, the lack of defenses could have been arrogance on the part of the village, like the fall of Claw Island. it’s very possible that Fort Salma discovered large troop movements and tried to warn the Village.

i imagine the offensive flowed thusly:
1) starting at Overlord’s Greatcamp, based on intel from Wallwatcher’s Camp
2) crossing the bridge at the river
3) destroying Greyhoof Camp Village
4) perhaps meeting up with more centaur from earthwork’s bluff
5) crossing the zone border through the cave system, emerging at Heartwood Pass.
6) proceed northwest to Altar Brook Crossing
7) taking Altar Brook Trading Post to the east
8) possibly meeting up with more reinforcements from SE Queensdale at ABTP
9) taking Shaemoor Garrison AND attacking Shaemoor Village the day human PC starts PS

i would view steps 6-9 to be the major “surprise push” occurring in a single 24 hour period, since Heartwood Pass is a built Centaur fort.

(taking into account the human personal story, the attack on Shaemoor Village was definitely a surprise, otherwise the DR gate guard wouldn’t have let the PC leave DR to begin with.)

I’ve made a few attempts to trace out the centaur offensive myself. One particular mystery is that while otherwise the easiest explanation for the centaurs in eastern Kessex would be coming in from Brisban Wildlands, there is no evidence of a centaur presence there. It’s possible, given the apparent alliance between the bandits and the centaurs, that the bandits in Brisban simply let them through, and the centaurs saw no reason to maintain a direct presence there when the bandits were supplying them.

That said, I think the invasion does come from the Harathi Hinterlands, and what we’ve seen is an encirclement aided by bandits showing them hidden passages and, perhaps, Lionguard indifference. The Lionguard claims neutrality in the war – it’s possible, then, that the Lionguard simply allowed centaur armies to pass by (or through) havens such as First Haven, Black Haven, and Swamplost Haven, as long as the centaurs didn’t bother anyone within the havens. That alone would have allowed them to access Kessex and southeastern Queensdale quite easily, and would likely have caught the Krytans offguard (and furious) if they’d expected the Lionguard to resist an invading force passing by their havens.

Since we haven’t seen any signs of Kryta being angry at Lion’s Arch on this basis, it’s more likely that there are some hidden tunnels or passes that aren’t available to us. As previously noted, a tunnel from Ambush Camp to the “hidden” cliffside camp on the eastern edge of Queensdale seems likely. From there, they could have crossed the swamp to Heartwood, where a second hidden path might link Heartwood and Cavernhold. Crossing the bridge would then give them access to the Greatcamp site.

This does raise the question of why they built there. I’d guess they wanted to trash the town(s) that used to be there, and then decided it made for a good location to counter-fortify against Fort Salma.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

it’s evident even in the side stories of GW1, that centaurs were not in Harathi Hinterlands, as that’s the area where Saul D’allessio, with the help of the Mursaat, defeated the Charr who were attempting to invade Kryta.

That’s only so for the southern half of the eastern edge, not the whole of Harathi Hinterlands.

Forgotten Legend

as a special note, it seems that the Centaurs are moving their troops through the hills and caves of the zone borders, where we players are unable to go. it’s the only explanation for them having such a large presence in Kessex and Queensdale without totally destroying all the Seraph forts at the zone portals.

That makes some sense. We see centaurs in a few caves and mines here and there, and contest other mines at times. They’re also religiously tied to the earth.

Forgotten Legend

for the Overlord’s Greatcamp and Earthwork Bluffs, even though they are recent, i still believe they’ve been around at least for a few decades. i base this presumption on the sheer size of the camps, which are clearly Centaur design and construction. the Centaur could have easily come in from the area north of Brisban Wildlands.

I’m not so sure. The personal story, particularly the missing sister storyline, and select Kessex/Harathi events (in conjunction) makes it sound like the centaur’s boost in advancement is only recent – as of Jennah’s rise to the throne (and the Ministry – particularly Caudecus – trying to undermine her). This boost being caused by the centaur’s alliance with the bandits – which, in turn, means that Caudecus (and/or his lacky ministers) are (directly or indirectly) supporting the centaur effort.

So the centaur “surprise offensive” can be no older than a decade, by the sounds of it. And this includes occupation in Kessex Hills.

And you’d be surprised how easy it is to create a large camp when you have a full army at your disposal. Romans made full-fledged walled camps within days (sometimes less than a day) when their legions were on the move.

Forgotten Legend

it just seems strange to me that a village in the middle of centaur territory to the south had no defenses prior to being destroyed.

Because it wasn’t the middle of centaur territory until recently. (“recently” meaning “within the past decade at most”).

Forgotten Legend

i really need to tour the various Centaur camps again. there probably were a lot more Harathi in Kessex than i’m thinking.

Just about all – if not all – centaurs in Kessex Hills are Harathi. There are no, or next to no, Tamini. I think there’s a Modniir at the skill challenge, but no more.

Forgotten Legend

i imagine the offensive flowed thusly:
1) starting at Overlord’s Greatcamp, based on intel from Wallwatcher’s Camp
2) crossing the bridge at the river
3) destroying Greyhoof Camp Village
4) perhaps meeting up with more centaur from earthwork’s bluff
5) crossing the zone border through the cave system, emerging at Heartwood Pass.
6) proceed northwest to Altar Brook Crossing
7) taking Altar Brook Trading Post to the east
8) possibly meeting up with more reinforcements from SE Queensdale at ABTP
9) taking Shaemoor Garrison AND attacking Shaemoor Village the day human PC starts PS

Given that there is zero Tamini presence in Kessex Hills (unless I misremember), then the Queensdale assault force came from Gendarran Fields, not Kessex Hills. Given that Harathi are also in Gendarran Fields, the Kessex Hills assault force likely came from there too.

Basically, as I see it:

1. All three centaur forces came from the north (via NE Harathi corner) and pushed south.
2. Modniir ceased pushing personally at Harathi, leading the charge from a distance.
3. Tamini and Harathi push into Gendarran, with Tamini being the head of the charge thus most numerous, and establishment of one major base.
4. Harathi push southwest into Kessex Hills, quickly establishing major fortifications at Earthwork Bluffs and Overlord’s Greatcamp.
5. Tamini push dead west, into Queensdale, (likely via Stonebore Vaults) and establish a foothold in SW corner (minor fortifications with use of cliffs as natural defenses because the engineers of centaurs, Harathi, are elsewhere).
6. Tamini push northwest from western and southwestern Queensdale, ignoring Beetletun proper and heading towards Shaemoor, being deadlocked at the Shaemoor garrison until a Modniir High Shaman comes in and pushes them through, where they get pushed back with said High Shaman’s retreat (human tutorial).

(post too long)

As I see it, the Harathi were to do a sweep of southern Kryta while the Tamini made an initial assault on northern Kryta, diverting Krytan forces to protect their main breadbasket (Queensdale) and capital, and Harathi would rejoin Tamini pushing north; but the alliance with Lionguard prevents them from passing through Swamplost Haven (they can simply walk near First and Black Haven) but Fort Salma (now the only passage north) held them off.

Cavernhold Camp in the north is a Tamini place, and they do patrol a fairly large stretch around it, including being the force that assaults the quarry. Still, they’re relatively minor- on par with the Tamini presence in the Hinterlands, more or less.

From what I recall, a Roman legion was able to set up a crude fortified camp – earthworks and a log palisade – between the end of a day’s march and settling in for the night. I’m not sure how much of this is legend versus reality, but when you’re talking about thousands of soldiers with an attached engineer corps, I can see it happening.

When it comes to the attack on Shaemoor – I don’t think the Tamini actually got through the garrison, but instead bypassed it, possibly through the pass up from Altar Brooke Vale.

More likely they went through the garrison, given that Logan had to retake it, iirc.

From what I recall, Logan didn’t have to retake it, he just needed reinforcements to hold it…

Whelp, I have a spare character slot now, I can go and find out…

EDIT:
The line is “There are more centaurs on the other side of town. Captain Thackeray’s calling for reinforcements at the garrison!” That suggests to me that Logan is holding the garrison rather than retaking it, and, in fact, that the initial wave of attackers into the town came from a different direction from the garrison (as, until the messenger arrived, the Seraph on that side of town had no idea the garrison was even under threat – she would presumably know it was if the centaurs had come from there).

And dear Balthazar the starter instance is dumbed down compared to the old days. I mean, I guess it IS a starter instance, but even so…