Guardian alignment question.

Guardian alignment question.

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Posted by: Ovenproofpanda.2416

Ovenproofpanda.2416

Q:

Hi there! I’m new to the Lore of GW, getting through parts of it slowly but surely…

Are there any examples of unlawful or even evil Guardians in GW? Is this even possible?

Guardian alignment question.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

While Guild Wars 2 generally doesn’t explicitly tell you what profession an NPC has, there are a number of villains that use magic that is clearly at least very similar to guardian magic. I have some specific examples in mind among the villain factions of humans and sylvari, but if you’re new to the lore, I’ll hold back on giving examples in case revealing them would also be spoilers.

The path of the guardian requires that you have faith in something, and a desire to defend that something. It does not require that the thing you have faith in to actually be virtuous.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Guardian alignment question.

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Posted by: Moonyeti.3296

Moonyeti.3296

I could see it working, a guardian is one that keeps focus trained on him rather than his allies and skills to keep allies alive and well. This has a virtuous feel to it on the surface, but it could be a guardian keeping his team of terrorists alive so they can kill as many innocents as possible for example.

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Posted by: TheConquerer.8639

TheConquerer.8639

Gavin, the Nightmare Court sylvari you meet in the White Stag story, is apparently a guardian. He might be more honorable than most of the Nightmare Court, but he still desires to capture the stag to torture it into becoming a creature of Nightmare so the Court can turn the Pale Tree and the sylvari by force.

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Posted by: ugrakarma.9416

ugrakarma.9416

I do not want ruin parties, i will spoiler, the professions lore is very toned down. Do not create too many expectations.

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Draxynic, source on guardians needing faith in something? That sounds very paladin, but my impression of all the GW2 professions is that they use magic as a tool in their varied ways yet no moral plus/minus attaches to the tool itself. Same way a hammer can tap in a nail or bash in a head, depending on its wielder. Eg necromancy isn’t evil bad horrid stuff, even if some find it squicky, no more than being a coroner or medical examiner or funeral home director makes you evil.

So afaik guardians are just people with access to a certain tool set and can use it how they like. My human guardian is a scruffy ex-Seraph whose powers are “selfish,” in that they heal him and defend him really well but unless he’s close friends with someone he’s not much use other than bodily standing between them and the incoming damage.

Not that ANet has given much lore info on any profession beyond some AMA comments on how magic is passed down and trained. So you’re free to infuse any personality you like into your guardian and just try to keep his/her background and rp within plausible range of the world’s canon.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It was in interviews at the time that the Guardian was announced, back in 2011. Unfortunately, they were on mainstream gaming media sites that didn’t see value in continuing to host prerelease articles on a released game, so good luck finding them now. (The original reveal that the guardian was a combination of monk, paragon, and “other traditions” came from the same sources.) It may also be mentioned in Towertalk’s Lore of the Classes podcast, which may be easier to find, but I don’t recall for certain and I’m not inclined to listen through a one-hour podcast again just to see – if you haven’t, though, it’s a good listen (introduction is in German, but switches to English quickly).

One thing that they were quite explicit about was that it really didn’t matter what the guardian had faith in. For instance, the example was given of a charr having faith in their comrades in arms or in “the manifest destiny of the legions”. The power isn’t bestowed by an external agent, it just seems to be something that flows through faith in some manner – it’s entirely possible that a particularly narcissistic guardian might be able to have faith in his or her own inherent superiority.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Guardian alignment question.

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Thanks, I’ll trust your memory on that.

My guy isn’t narcissistic as such. He’s pretty glumly aware he screws up most everything (he’s -ex- Seraph for good cause). When his guardian talents started showing up he used them to bully others until his dad sent him off to Seraph training and service. He no longer bullies, but his magic is strongest in very close proximity to his skin. So it’s not that -he- is selfish, just his power is

So hmm, what does he have faith in … nothing conscious, really. It’s all subliminal for him. He’s a decent guy, mind you, he will spring into combat to help others, he’s part of an adventuring guild. He’s just also a lazy undisciplined slob who’s made his way post-military by taking short term gigs as a bodyguard to nobles that don’t actually need one but want to look important at various social functions.

Anyway, I think he’s worked in RP quite well for years without being a paragon of virtue. I agree with Moonyeti, a guardian could be quite vicious (I mean come on, one of their core powers is burning enemies to death, ew! And those enemies needn’t be evil, it works on deer and bunnies too).

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Oh, they can definitely be vicious…


Minister Estelle appears to be a guardian, in fact. PC guardians don’t have access to her flame tornado thing (yet, anyway, and we’ll probably never get anything quite that powerful) but pay attention to her attacks when she’s attacking normally. They’re guardian sword autos.

For a non-boss equivalent, White Mantle Clerics.

In fact, since guardians are using broadly the same type of magic as monks, you could even go back to Confessor Dorian…

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Guardian alignment question.

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Not that ANet has given much lore info on any profession beyond some AMA comments on how magic is passed down and trained. So you’re free to infuse any personality you like into your guardian and just try to keep his/her background and rp within plausible range of the world’s canon.

My thoughts exactly. In fact, if you can create an “evil” Guardian character, please share the bio and explain as that stuff is what I enjoy hearing most about MMO characters. I just love hearing backstory and origins (I had a field day back in City of Heroes where the sky was the limit with your characters) and that tends to be the breadth of how I RP my characters (as of lately).

I just rolled a Guardian myself about 3 or so weeks ago and been mulling over his bio as I leveled him up. I’m aiming at a more morose or “edgy/emo” guardian rather than the your nice and compassionate or religiously strict and law abiding type that a typical guardian/paladin might be. Something like his warband or platoon (depending when a defining event occurs) having died by his fault and from guilt, he keeps their “spirits” alive in weapons he summons (yeah, makes me have to have a Spirit weapon in a slot somewhere at all times) and even though there is no actual connection to their individual life-force, he believes they live through these constructs so much so that he speaks to them like sentient individuals. Still mulling over other personality quirks and demeanor.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Dont guardians draw power from “conviction”, like, as long as their belief is strong, is doesnt matter if its good evil, as long as they truly belief in their own actions.
Although I suppose the powers would look differently when handled by different convictions.
The desire to protect, or to support, ir to defend can be considered good.
The desire to avenge, or punish, or judge, can be either good or evil.

Again, this is just my personal take on the guardians function, but I think they draw power directly from the mist, and if you dont drawvthis power with conviction, the power will either go rampant and/or consume you, or will simply not allow it be drawn by you. As a result, guardians can draw raw energy, crystallized energy, or mist flame, and wield it like an extension of their beliefs

(edited by Amaimon.7823)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Guardian magic is rooted in Tyrian magic, just like necromancers, mesmers, and elementalists. It’s channeled through faith and conviction, and it’s likely that it can draw on power from the Mists to an extent (just as necromancer seems to), but the core of guardian is in the same school of magic once practiced by monks.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Guardian alignment question.

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Posted by: Rodzynald.5897

Rodzynald.5897

Faith and resolve is cruicial for guardians. As I always like to say, their abilities are materialized force of will with a pinch of morals and virtues. By default, guardians possess strong will because without that, they wouldn’t be able to weave magic into their spirit.
Currently, in my RP community, I am roleplaying a hard case of loss of guardian magic due to a loss of confidence because he harmed the one that should have been protected, thus killing her. I still don’t know if my character’s magic will return, but I am making a huge lore writing about it. So in my book there are no weak guardians, there are less skilled and more experienced ones, but they are all strong nevertheless, at least if it comes to the strength of mind and spirit.

Guardian is meant for jolly crusading.

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

I highly doubt there are “alignments” in GW2 world. I think Tyria, while very maniqueistic in the surface, is way more fluid and grey than traditional old school D&D style fantasy.

Guardians can be good, bad and both, as long as they have the conviction enough to keep fighting for what they believe.

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: starlinvf.1358

starlinvf.1358

I highly doubt there are “alignments” in GW2 world. I think Tyria, while very maniqueistic in the surface, is way more fluid and grey than traditional old school D&D style fantasy.

Guardians can be good, bad and both, as long as they have the conviction enough to keep fighting for what they believe.

It also helps that RPGs and even D&D are trying to move away from rigid alignment systems, and moving more toward “character traits” to allow for better story telling. Movies have been doing this a lot because of the easy potential for conflict…. though many confuse the idea of “Anti-hero” as being the same as morally jaded, when that not what it actually means.

As for GW2, there is no clear cut good vs evil; only the clashing of morals and ideals. Even the dragons don’t represent any kind of ideological stance…. they are eldritch forces of nature, with objective purpose to wake, feast, flourish, and then rest. They’re often mistaken as representing an ideological stance because of their methods; which is why they have followers in some circles. Zhaitan calls, Modremoth infests, Jormag tempts, Krakatorik subverts, Primordus consumes….. and Bubbles uses Splash attack.

In fact…. many of the “antagonistic” factions in the game are driven by purity of purpose. The Inquest accepts that any sacrifice is a worthy one in the quest for knowledge. The Nightmare Court fight for freedom from oppression. The Flame Legion seeks unity through force. The White Mantle want security and survival for all humanity. The Svanir pursue primal strength. Outlaw Gangs and Aetherblade want wealth and power.

The catch here is that the line for heroism in the game is drawn by selfless deeds. And thats where the divide and conflict leads to the clash of ideology. The difference between Jenna’s crown and Caudacus’ White Mantle, despite wanting the same thing, is Jenna’s solution is done through cooperation and diplomacy, while Caudacus’ solution is done through isolationism. The Inquest vs the Colleges is their disagreement in Ethics; and ironically, how the Colleges are counter productive through the promotion of selfish in-fighting over recognition, secretive research practices, and overbearing political control on what can be researched, and how its conducted. The Svanir only recognize pure strength as the only measure of worth; while Norn society finds value in Successful deeds.

This approach leaves a lot of room open for interpretation… but more importantly is made flexible to allow any ideology to be swayed, and serve the greater good without compromising the foundation of those beliefs. The Guardian represents conviction in those beliefs, and manifests as a power to be wielded in service of those beliefs…. even if those beliefs are purely selfish in nature.

Canoch in particular resonates heavily with this concept of transforming idealism. His goals during the SouthSun ark (to free the refugees tricked into contractual slavery)
were entirely just, but his methods too destructive. His core beliefs remain the same.. almost identical to that of the Nightmare court. But he is now aware that the ends don’t always justify the means, and takes care to not inflict collateral damage despite the difficulty it imposes on his actions. This has redefined his sense of Justice, and now recognizes personal responsibility, the value of personal restraint, and recognizes law is not just a tool of oppression.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

While I agree that alignments are hobbling, I’m not so sure I’d call GW2 an example of gray morality. Sure, every group has motivations, and that’s a step up from chaotic evil murder-and-pillage, but ANet’s still taken pains to give them very clear black hat characteristics, sometimes in direct opposition to their stated aims.

The Sons of Svanir are rabidly misogynistic, regardless of how strong a given female may be. The Flame Legion are zealots who burn sacrifices alive, and are even more monstrous to their females than the Sons. The bandits sell their own people into slavery, and Caudecus and his Mantle sold out everyone outside the city walls to be slaughter by centaurs. The Nightmare Court converts others to their philosophy of freedom by torture and brainwashing. The Inquest, at least, can’t be accused of moral hypocrisy when they don’t believe in morals, but they take secretive research practices and overbearing control to heights unimagined by mainstream asura. And the Elder Dragons are well on track to kill us all if left alone.

If they had wanted to take the gray route, ANet could have. Imagine, for example, a Nightmare Court that only recruited through public speeches and rational argument, and who directed their ire towards the Pale Tree and the mentors who were ‘enslaving’ their siblings from the time they awakened. They could still be hostile, still be able to attack us and our allies, but their position of freeing their race would have a lot more credence. Instead, we have the brainwashing, and I believe that was deliberate. ANet wanted antagonists with realistic motivations, but they still wrote them to be ‘bad guys’. They didn’t seem to want gray, and they didn’t make it.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I’m inclined to agree with Aaron here. To give a few more examples:

The White Mantle is motivated by power – either directly in Caudecus’ case, or through the Mursaat in the case of the truly devout. Neither faction gives a proverbial for security and survival of all humanity, except possibly at the level of the more gullible recruits. If the route to power is seizing control of a human nation and then building it up, then so be it… but the unlikely event of anyone non-Mantle actually benefiting is coincidental. If the route to power comes from killing every human that isn’t White Mantle, then let the world burn…

Now, take the Inquest… the Inquest are actually more hierarchical than mainstream asura ever were. The only real restriction the Arcane Council really seems to place on research is ’don’t put other asura at excessive risk’. Maybe there’s a moral component to it as well, but maybe it’s just that the asura realise that sufficiently annoying another race that is organised at a higher level than skritt counts as excessive risk. The Inquest, on the other hand, is run like an amoral business: everything they discover is regarded as their intellectual property, and the research that gets done is the research that the Inquest leaders feel is worthy of being done.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.