Guild Wars 2

Also anther detail, GW1 metour shower was a hefty spell that exhausted the caster (in game mechanics).

Who says the reason ‘minions’ don’t do such is because their undead form can’t power the spell? Or it’d exhaust/weaken the minion a deal.

Most player necromancers (and allies) run standard minions, and small numbers of those. These are noticably weaker then something like the Undead under the Lich from prophecies, who controlled an army and they could do a lot more.

CHIPS.6018:

If what you said is true, there are 3 problems that need to be addressed.

1) Aliyana’s body was turned into a Risen. Zhaitan clearly got full control over her body. So what made her soul “unreachable” by Zhaitan? Why wasn’t her soul forced back into her own body to fight? How was she able to keep her soul from corruption?
Aliyana’s soul wasn’t in the Underworld neither, since she was seen wondering around in the living world. So even if Zhaitan got minimum control over the Underworld, Aliyana should still have been corrupted on the spot in Mount Maelstrom. She was killed by Risen, so Zhaitan knew she was there.
My conclusion: Aliyana’s soul wasn’t needed because Zhaitan already has more than enough “spare” souls to put into dead bodies.

Her soul wasn’t pulled to the body, because the risen made from the body was weak, an everyday risen, cannon fodder with no need for a soul.

2) If dead bodies have memories, why aren’t the “good guy” necromancers taking advantage of this? Why isn’t there necromancer minions using Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower?

In GW1 necromancers summons minions directly from dead humans all the time. Often times this is done on their very own allies! So morality/legality isn’t the problem here.

My conclusion: Necromancer minions cannot use Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower because those skills requires a soul/mind to use. And forcing a spirit to fight is illegal. There is no memory in a dead body.

Necromancer minions are not dead bodies reanimated, they are animated constructs made of the flesh and bones of the dead. A vital difference. And Tyrians consider animating dead bodies if not immoral, then at least very disrespectful.

3) Prince Rurik’s soul was forced back into his own body, and forced to fight against the players in GW1. Why is this even needed, if his “soulless” dead body will fight just as well by memory alone?

As Konig pointed out, just having the body without the soul wouldn’t have half the psychological impact. Khilbron was a schemer, his whole character is about control, so naturally enough, he sought to make use of the heroes’ dearest companion when they no longer were his pawns.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To your three points CHIPS:

1) More likely event is that Aliyana’s body doesn’t have a soul. Because with your theory you have the question: Where did Zhaitan get these excess souls where he can just ignore the occasional soul like Aliyana and Romke and his crew?

2) Because necromancers cannot learn their minions’ memories? Or if you mean why wouldn’t the undead use the abilities of their bodies’ capabilities while alive, who says they don’t? It’s not like necromancer’s undead – the more evolved kind, not the shambling piles of flesh and bone that are player necromancers’ undead – aren’t without a variety of capabilities.

3) Because he wouldn’t talk. It is a case of psychological attacks. Rather than “I must slay the soulless husk that once was my friend and prince!” it becomes “I must kill the undead self-aware but not self-controlling body of whom was once my friend and prince!” There’s a big difference on the impact of it, and though it didn’t work to players because “mechanics!”, Rurik was supposed to be a liked figure and a friend (same with Togo, Kormir, DE, the Biconics, mentors, and Trahearne).

That was the point of bringing back Rurik – not Rurik’s capabilities, but his ties to the PC. And a mindless, soulless, husk of a mobile body wouldn’t hold the same impact.

1) The biggest reason I do not buy the body memory theory is because of “Death, Good!” Since nearly every Risen says something, it is safe to expect that Aliyana’s body will also say “Death, Good!”

Memories do not give an opinion like that. “Memory” can only say something from back when they were alive (that’s the rule). “Death, Good!” is not from when they were alive, since this is an current opinion.

I mean yes you can argue that person, when he was alive, genuinely believes that “Death is Good!” Sure this can happen. Some people are weird. But we are not talking about just one or two guys. All the Risen can express opinions like this.

Either Zhaitan was talking to us directly though that body or it was another soul inside. All speculations, of course.

Maybe he got those spirits from the Underworld. Maybe he got them from the living world (plenty of ghost around). We don’t know.

2) That didn’t really answer my question though. My question is why would anyone even bother to use minions, when they can have undead using Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower? Why even bother creating these sub-par spells?

If there is memory inside dead bodies, what is stopping the “good-guy” necromancers from using actual undead (instead of minions)? Is it illegal somehow? Are the “good-guy” necromancers so weak and useless that they cannot even get one undead to help them? What was the reason?

It is kind of funny, but back in GW1 my guildmate said this: "The Monk spell “Vengeance” is more necromancer like than necromancer minions. You are rising someone from the dead and he/she is just as strong as when he/she was alive. The only thing missing is that it can only be cast on allies, not enemies. " (The allies’ soul is inside the body during Vengeance, btw.")

3) Ok maybe it was just for taunting. I will buy this.

Kalavier.1097:

Also anther detail, GW1 metour shower was a hefty spell that exhausted the caster (in game mechanics).

Who says the reason ‘minions’ don’t do such is because their undead form can’t power the spell? Or it’d exhaust/weaken the minion a deal.

Most player necromancers (and allies) run standard minions, and small numbers of those. These are noticably weaker then something like the Undead under the Lich from prophecies, who controlled an army and they could do a lot more.

Yes, Meteor Shower will exhaust the undead minion. That’s the point. The necromancer sent the undead minion to use exhausting, 25 energy spells so those “negative consequences” won’t fall onto the necromancer himself/herself.

We have seen Undead using powerful spells with exhaustion. The skeleton Sorcerers in GW1 uses Earthquake, which causes exhaustion and costs 25 energy.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skeleton_Sorcerer

So yes we do have prove that undead’s body is capable of casting powerful spells. There is “enough energy and power” in these undead to cast these spells and skills.

And once again, why are the “good guy” necromancers so weak? Liches can summon thousands of undead to assist them. I mean fine they are big bad boys and they are powerful. I get it. But come on, our “good guy” necromancers cannot even summon one single undead to fight?

My conclusion is that undead requires souls. And forcing souls to fight is illegal. That’s the reason why “good guy” necromancers do not use undeads. Although secretly, many “good guy” necromancers knows how to summon a few undead. They tried it with animals, etc.

I buy this story more than necromancers being “weak”. Because if “good guy” necromancers are this weak, they are better off training to be a different profession lore wise.

In the future, if they give Ritualist spirits to the necromancers, perhaps we will see a few undead allies. Ritualist spirits+necro minions=undead.

Tuomir.1830:

Necromancer minions are not dead bodies reanimated, they are animated constructs made of the flesh and bones of the dead. A vital difference. And Tyrians consider animating dead bodies if not immoral, then at least very disrespectful.

After my necromancer turn someone’s father into a minion, we can’t even bury him properly. Why? Well, he doesn’t even look human anymore. Now he looks like a headless T-Rex (Bone Fiend).

I will say changing someone’s father into a headless T-Rex is much worst (in the respect/moral department) than just using that body as it is. At least when you are done with it, you can “un-cast” that spell and let the family bury it properly.

Minions are undead. They simply just aren’t taking a skeleton and animating it. It’s more of constructs then straight normal undead. I never said “good guy” necromancers are weaker then “bad guy necromancers”. I’m talking player character necromancers compared to the BIG LICHES. Aka, Vizier, Joko, and some of the others. Said Skeleton sorcerers are underneath the Vizier…

Evidence/supporting details saying necromancer minions aren’t undead?

Also, Risen saying their lines is just like zombies moaning “braiiinnnnsssss”. It’s not a matter of body/muscle memory. Which by the way, is about movements, not words. Muscle memory is being able to do something effectively without thinking about it as far as I know. So like swinging a sword, firing a rifle is muscle memory, not shouting random phrases.

Kalavier.1097:

Minions are undead. They simply just aren’t taking a skeleton and animating it. It’s more of constructs then straight normal undead. I never said “good guy” necromancers are weaker then “bad guy necromancers”. I’m talking player character necromancers compared to the BIG LICHES. Aka, Vizier, Joko, and some of the others. Said Skeleton sorcerers are underneath the Vizier…

Evidence/supporting details saying necromancer minions aren’t undead?

Also, Risen saying their lines is just like zombies moaning “braiiinnnnsssss”. It’s not a matter of body/muscle memory. Which by the way, is about movements, not words. Muscle memory is being able to do something effectively without thinking about it as far as I know. So like swinging a sword, firing a rifle is muscle memory, not shouting random phrases.

Here is my opinion of an undead:

Undead are capable of fighting “totally independent” from its summoner.

Even after Vizier is dead, even after Joko got imprisoned (he literally lost control over his Awaken army), even after Zhaitan died, their undead armies keeps on fighting with all their skills.

All their skills, that’s the key here. A Risen that could use Hundred Blades will keep on using Hundred Blades after the death of Zhaitan.

Now look at the necromancer’s minions. After the necromancer is dead, the minions will not use any skill. In GW1 they would auto attack, but that is not using skills. In GW2, the minions would flat out die upon the death of the necromancer.

So counter question for you: Please prove that necromancer minions can still use their skills after the necromancer is dead.

If not, then minions are not undead. (In my view, of course.)

It is not so much “Liches are stronger than necromancers”. It is “Liches are summoning thousands of undead at the same time, while necromancers cannot even summon one.” It is god vs ant.

Now of course liches should be super strong. They are bosses. They are epic. They are legendary. I get this and I am not arguing this. But where is the middle ground? Where are the necromancers that can summon 10 undeads? Where are the necromancers that can summon 1 undead?

BTW I don’t need to see “good guy” necromancer using undeads in the game. I know the game need to be balance. I get this too. So just knowing in lore that “good guy” necromancers can indeed summon undeads is good enough for me.

Else if by lore necromancers cannot use undeads at all, then give us an explanation. Is it illegal? Are “good guy” necromancers really that weak? What is the reason?

As for you last point, you agree that “Death, good!” isn’t from memory. Cool. So where did that came from then? If it isn’t memory, it has to be either soul/spirit or Zhaitan.

I never said necromancer minions can use their skills after the necromancer is dead/disabled. Infact, on that level they get their power and guidance directly from the necromancer, while lich spawned undead are slightly more free in that the lich doesn’t need to be directly there.

Again, your definition of undead doesn’t truly match the lore’s version. Because Grenth is the patron of necromancers and before his rule there was NO undeath… so how does that work?

Infact, here are quotes from the wiki.

A minion is an undead servant created by necromancers.

Undead refers to creatures that have been killed and reanimated by magical means often practiced by necromancers. In most cases reanimated undead do not retain their original soul and as such they are bound to the will of a master – the magician who brought the creature into undeath – and would usually be useless without one, either perishing along their master or continuing to wander without purpose. Undead ghosts (excluding those created by the Foefire) often manifest themselves of their own, free or subconscious will rather than being bound by a necromancer. They are usually tied to the world of living due to some task left incomplete and will often depart when their souls are put at ease.

While it is common for necromancers of all paths of life to practice reanimation of the dead, there exists powerful undead necromancers known as liches. Liches are not only able to exhibit much greater capability of reanimating and maintaining entire armies of undead, but also their inability to be killed by normal means or being extremely difficult to kill. Examples of this include Palawa Joko and Vizier Khilbron.

CHIPS.6018:

1) The biggest reason I do not buy the body memory theory is because of “Death, Good!” Since nearly every Risen says something, it is safe to expect that Aliyana’s body will also say “Death, Good!”

Memories do not give an opinion like that. “Memory” can only say something from back when they were alive (that’s the rule). “Death, Good!” is not from when they were alive, since this is an current opinion.

I mean yes you can argue that person, when he was alive, genuinely believes that “Death is Good!” Sure this can happen. Some people are weird. But we are not talking about just one or two guys. All the Risen can express opinions like this.

Either Zhaitan was talking to us directly though that body or it was another soul inside. All speculations, of course.

Maybe he got those spirits from the Underworld. Maybe he got them from the living world (plenty of ghost around). We don’t know.

You seem to be forgetting a very important part of what makes a dragon minion. Dragon minions – all of them of the three dragon minion types we see personalities of (Risen, Icebrood, Branded) – are fanatically devout to their dragon. Regardless of their state beforehand. This goes even for the more mindless ones because they share a hive mind. They do not hold individual consciousness. And more importantly they do not have opinions. Think of it like this:

• Physically, dragon minions are turned into some form of altered element (ice, lava, crystal, etc.).
• Mentally, dragon minions are brainwashed.

They hold no free will – this is the entire point of the Forgotten ritual used to free Glint – and as such they cannot form opinions. Even the mindless ones are like this, where all they know to do is three things:

1) Lurk and Swarm.
2) Follow orders.
3) Be ever-faithful to their dragon.

So “Death, good!” is not the individual’s opinion. Because the individual has no opinion. They’re stating someone else’s opinions. It is their words, their wordings, but not their opinions – not their will.

So Risen Thralls do not have opinions. It is not a case of memory or not. It is an enforced belief by Zhaitan onto these mindless husks that only know how to kill unless pushed around by champions and lieutenants.

And as stated, we know he got some spirits from the Underworld. The Keeper of the Temple is one such case.

CHIPS.6018:

2) That didn’t really answer my question though. My question is why would anyone even bother to use minions, when they can have undead using Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower? Why even bother creating these sub-par spells?

If there is memory inside dead bodies, what is stopping the “good-guy” necromancers from using actual undead (instead of minions)? Is it illegal somehow? Are the “good-guy” necromancers so weak and useless that they cannot even get one undead to help them? What was the reason?

Necromancers do not envoke hive minds in their minions, unlike Elder Dragons. Keep in mind that a risen is not your typical undead. Risen are dragon minions first and foremost – they are only undead in the physical sense, not the mental or spiritual sense.

Necromancers have no indication of being capable of raising a body who’s soulless husk retains memories of past actions or knowledge. Only Elder Dragons (not just Zhaitan, but at least Jormag too as Jormag has seen to have minions made from norn with bashed in skulls, and later-stage minions are just ice and bones).

CHIPS.6018:

Here is my opinion of an undead:

Undead are capable of fighting “totally independent” from its summoner.

Sorry to say, but your opinion is wrong here. Necromancer minions are always constantly considered undead. Both mechanically in GW1, and lorewise. The very first quest for necromancers in Prophecies outright states this. After learning how to raise the most basic minion in GW1, the Bone Horror, Verata will say this:

“Fantastic, raising a bone minion, isn’t it? There’s nothing quite like controlling the undead. You’ll need to see another trainer before you can learn a trick like that, but I will give you a couple of skills so that you can begin your training to become a true Necromancer.”

There are more cases, but this was just the first ever shown to players in the history of Guild Wars.