Guild Wars 2

I’m curious because we’ve heard of various liches, FOUGHT various liches, but we’ve never really heard (as far as I know, GW1 vet) how people ‘become’ liches.

Still haven’t, really. The closest we have is the inference that Khilbron was transformed as a side-effect of the Cataclysm… and even then, that’s just an inference, and he could have been changed by some as-of-yet unknown factor. For Joko and the so-called Risen Liches we don’t even have that much.

In one of the later GW1 halloween events they had (IIRC) a “Mysterious Lich” show up in Drok’s forge and hang out there.

Was wondering if anybody had seen anything I may have missed :O.

The Nameless Lich seems to have been a dropped plotline- iirc, one of the devs said she’d be playing a role in the future, but that was before they stopped making new content for GW1.

EDIT: “It’s safe to say you’ll be seeing [the Lunatic Court] again – as well as that lich.” http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/11/11/costume-design-and-hints-of-whats-to-come-massivelys-intervie/

That was just after Halloween 2010, and while the Lunatic Court stuff was followed up on in ’11 and ’12, the lich played no further role before the end of GW1 updates was announced in May 2013.

RIP GW1 updates. I shall still vote for bringing you back from the grave.

Anyways, we know of four liches in Tyria, and a few “psuedo/possible liches”. Said four are Khilbron, Joko, Zoldark, and Mazdak. The few are The Hunter, Fendi Nin, and the various Risen Liches.

Of the four outright called liches, all but Zoldak have the shared trait of “cannot die by normal means” – Khilbron was killed via his soul being ripped from his body by the soul batteries and bloodstone; Joko suffered through countless killing attempts including being burned; and Mazdak was only killable (or so he claims and everyone believes) except by Caladbolg (which seems to be an anti-undead blade, makes sense).

The Hunter is a Shiro’ken (a construct powered by a soul stone made by Shiro Tagachi) that was given magic by Khilbron to be unkillable (we never actually kill the thing in Nightfall, the quest is all about masking yourself from it and defeating it in a surprise attack to keep it from going after you again, but it is said it just got up and left after its feigned death, something it does a lot).

Zoldark was an oddity of the four, as by all indications he didn’t remain “alive” after we defeated him – instead, it was his minions which returned countlessly, unable to be killed (until Zoldark was “killed”). Though whether he remained dead, or just feigned death until we left like the Hunter does is unknown, but no indication of feigning death.

Fendi Nin was interesting as he was mentioned to have been given magic akin to the Hunter’s case (by the Vizier of Orr at the time), which allowed him to control other souls and, more importantly, return to his own body whenever ‘killed’ (we defeated him by ‘killing’ his soul).

Risen Liches, despite their names, aren’t really clear to be actual liches. They hold no interesting trait to them, they’re just powerful Risen Wraiths. The only exception is a very particular Risen Lich in Sparkfly Fen – after the related event, the Vigil part of the event mention it will return. But we hold no indication of such for any other Risen Lich; it should be noted that this Risen Lich appears to have replaced a named NPC who was present in the demos (same place and model), indicating that originally the event wasn’t for a generic Risen Lich. There are other Risen Liches, but no indication that they are unable to be killed.

It should be noted that, like Mazdak, the Soveriegn Eye of Zhaitan responds to a burning feeling when struck with Caladbolg.

This said, I’ll note that unlike traditional fantasy, liches in GW hold little to no evidence of having Phylacteries. The closest we get is a lore-less item name.

A common idea surrounding liches is that they transformed themselves into undead through some sort of magic, rather than had someone else bring them back or turn them.

That’s typically the case with standard fantasy liches. But as we see with The Hunter, Mazdak, and the Risen Lich, even Fendi Nin if you count him as possible, this is not the case for (most?) GW liches. Possibly even Khilbron’s case too.

I’m not sure if it’s official canon or not, or just a random ring Anet made for the ascended stuff, but we do know that Khilbron did have a phylactery. That implies at least a bit of premeditation on his part. Unless of course, he pulled a Voldemort and accidently made the phylactery/horcrux without his knowledge.

Not that it did him any good in the end….

Seeing as we killed him without destroying any such object, it clearly didn’t function like your cliche lich’s device. My bet? If there is any canon to it, it is in fact a real life phylactery, just a token of some religious significance, unrelated to his lichdom. That fits our current information much better, Orr being a highly religious nation- that sort of nation often requires their officials to at least appear the most pious of all.

Of course, it could just as easily be an alternative sort of phylactery like the Elder Scrolls have, or even a regular lich phylactery that was negated by the bloodstone… or just an object made by a designer who doesn’t obsess as much as we over the nature of the undead.

When a daddy lich and a mommy lich love each other very much…

Khilbron is quite a strange case on its own. His soul started out as normal human being presumably. Then he was corrupted/manipulated by torment demon in human disguise. Then he unleashed the Cataclysm. Its still pretty much unkown if the undeadification of (himself and) the entire nation was his doing, or Zhaitans immediate proximity during the cataclysm, or how all this works together.

In any case after he becomes a lich, he is killed on a bloodstone and his soul charges the soul batteries to hold the titans back in the Door of Komalie. Then we meet him again in the realm of torment along with Shiro Tagachi. How the bloodstone soul batteries got him there we have no idea. Actually i cant be certain that we actually killed him for good in the Realm of Torment at that point. Like many things undead, and especially something called a “lich”, its best to remain sceptic about their destruction.

When we meet Khilbron in the Realm of Torment, that is his soul (so he is no longer a lich). His soul got there via the soul batteries and Door of Komalie presumably, given Jacob Salinger’s dialogue of “Those spirits you fought after destroying the soul batteries were once Chosen, just like you. But time and their imprisonment has changed many of them.” which sounds like the Reaper of Bone Pits talking about those who were falsely imprisoned in the Realm of Torment. And of course the Door of Komalie was connected to the Realm of Torment.

So Khilbron is dead, since we destroyed his soul.

Also, there is another possibility for the rising undead after the Cataclysm – that Khilbron was a loch beforehand and one-by-one turned the dead Orrians into such – it did take a year for him to assault Kryta, after all.

I have a hard time picturing how sending souls to the Realm of Torment via the bloodstone soul battery sacrifices would keep the door to the realm of torment closed. I also dont quite buy the coincidence that Orr had a massive undead insurgence after the Cataclysm without the elder dragon of undeath slumbering below the peninsula that sunk on it having any influence on that.

But this is getting off-topic slightly. Though come to think of it, most liches listed are connected to Orr somehow. But that at least can be a valid coincidence.

We were outright told that the Cataclysm had zero affect on Zhaitan – was in an interview between Jeff Grubb and GuildMag, I’m on my phone so can’t search for it easily but his response was more or less “mere wrinkles in the crust hold no affect on an Elder Dragon.” Also, the undead of GW1 act nothing like a dragon minion. Though called the Elder Undeath Dragon, Zhaitan does not make traditional undead like those we saw in GW1.

I didnt say with a word that the GW1 undead are Zhaitans servants. I only pointed out that Orr, that happens to sit on top of a slumbering elder dragon of undeath has a lot of undead issues after the cataclysm. The place is practicly ripe with necromantic undertones, especially after the biggest surge of magical energies sunk the land.

Additionally before the Cataclysm, we dont even know for sure if Khilbron was a necromancer of great skill and power. Even if the elder dragon didnt feel the sinking of Orr right above himself, Orr could have been influenced by such an immense necromancy-themed power resting below.

To understand Liches, we must understand undead and spirits.

Flesh Minions – mindless summons by necromancers. These minions does not have a soul. They do not think and do not have emotions.

Undead (also Risen & Shiro’ken) – When a soul/spirit is forced back into a body, it becomes a type of undead. The body might not be the original body of the victim (as seen in Shiro’ken). These undeads are capable of thoughts and feelings. But they rarely have full control of their actions. That means an undead father might end up killing his own daughter and son, because he cannot control himself.

Spirits – Sometimes spirits summoneto fight. In GW1 the ritualists would use willing ancestor spirits. Spirits can also be forced to fight.

The “good guys” are limited to using flesh minions and volunteer spirits. They didn’t force any unwilling spirits to fight.

The bad guys will use unwilling spirits and undead to fight. Their victims becomes bounded to them.

Now liches are usually undead themselves. Most liches does have a master. So the way I see it, liches are just the more powerful version of the undead. The “grand master” put liches in charge of their undead army.

There may be liches that are independent and doesn’t have a master. What is required is these liches bound their own soul to themselves, so they became their own master.

CHIPS.6018:

Undead (also Risen & Shiro’ken) – When a soul/spirit is forced back into a body, it becomes a type of undead. The body might not be the original body of the victim (as seen in Shiro’ken). These undeads are capable of thoughts and feelings. But they rarely have full control of their actions. That means an undead father might end up killing his own daughter and son, because he cannot control himself.

Mostly true, but alas, we have conflicting evidence on the spirit bit. In the vast majority of cases, rather the spirit is bound to the body or not is unaddressed. There are a couple times when a slain undead will with their last words thank you for freeing them, but there is also at least one case where a ghost is complaining about how her body is now an undead. There just isn’t convincing evidence either way.

Most liches does have a master. So the way I see it, liches are just the more powerful version of the undead. The “grand master” put liches in charge of their undead army.

Not true. Most of the liches we know of act independently. Khilbron, Joko, Zoldark, all of them worked by themselves to their own ends. The only so-called liches seen to serve a master are the two risen liches in GW2- and as they are risen, and as said master is an Elder Dragon, there’s a strong case to be made that their circumstances should be considered separately. Mazdak is even more bizarre, and so is even harded to pin down.

As for my thoughts on your origin theory, there’s sadly an almost complete lack of evidence. Assuming Khilbron was not a lich during his tenure as Vizier (an assumption for which there is no evidence, I might add), he was changed in the Cataclysm, which is itself fully mysterious magic. None of the others even have that much- there is no mention of Joko or Zoldak’s lives before turning, and Mazdak and the risen liches may or may not have been liches before Zhaitan corrupted them. The assertion that self-willed liches turned themselves undead is as good a hypothesis as any other, but one we lack the means to test or prove.

EDIT: It occurs to me that you may have been referring to Abaddon when talking about masters. There’s no sign that he played a role in Khilbron’s actions between the Cataclysm and Khilbron’s destruction. If anything, the dialogue with the agent Abaddon had assigned to manipulate Khilbron suggests that they had discarded and forgotten him after the destruction of Arah. Khilbron’s belief that he required the Scepter of Orr is further evidence- if he was obeying Abaddon, he would not have needed some relic to make Abaddon’s servants work towards his ends.

lakdav.3694:

I didnt say with a word that the GW1 undead are Zhaitans servants. I only pointed out that Orr, that happens to sit on top of a slumbering elder dragon of undeath has a lot of undead issues after the cataclysm. The place is practicly ripe with necromantic undertones, especially after the biggest surge of magical energies sunk the land.

Additionally before the Cataclysm, we dont even know for sure if Khilbron was a necromancer of great skill and power. Even if the elder dragon didnt feel the sinking of Orr right above himself, Orr could have been influenced by such an immense necromancy-themed power resting below.

What you said was that you didn’t believe it to be a coincidence that two undead situations happened in the same place, implying that one way or another, the Cataclysm and Zhaitan affected each other. I stated that they didn’t by all indications – we have developer confirmed fact (edit: odd, that interview got shortened for some reason…) that the Cataclysm didn’t affect Zhaitan, and by the mentality of dragon minions, the same can be said for vice versa.

Zhaitan is only a “necromancy-themed power” in how it corrupts. When Elder Dragons are sleeping and seeping out magic, that magic is very general – as proven by the fact that the original asura gates held no fire-attribute, and the Bloodstone had no more necromancy tied to it than any other form of magic.

CHIPS.6018:

Undead (also Risen & Shiro’ken) – When a soul/spirit is forced back into a body, it becomes a type of undead. The body might not be the original body of the victim (as seen in Shiro’ken). These undeads are capable of thoughts and feelings. But they rarely have full control of their actions. That means an undead father might end up killing his own daughter and son, because he cannot control himself.

This isn’t fully true. Even ignoring some cases of risen, not all undead seem to have a soul. There seem to be two types of undead, in the general sense: mindless undead, and sentient undead. The former appear to be soulless (like most Orrian undead in GW1), the latter appear not (like most Awakened in GW1).

Not all risen have souls, this is outright confirmed with Romke and his crew, as well as the crusader’s spirit in SW Mount Maelstrom who mentions her body is now a risen. Only the more powerful risen appear to have souls, as they are the only ones who show having souls. Romke and his crew’s bodies are weaker risen.

CHIPS.6018:

Now liches are usually undead themselves. Most liches does have a master. So the way I see it, liches are just the more powerful version of the undead. The “grand master” put liches in charge of their undead army.

There may be liches that are independent and doesn’t have a master. What is required is these liches bound their own soul to themselves, so they became their own master.

Actually, most liches don’t have a master. Palawa Joko, for example. Khilbron as well, as Abaddon is not a necromantic master (he is Khilbron’s master in the same way that Gaheron is the Flame Legion’s master).

Only in the case of Zhaitan do liches have masters.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

CHIPS.6018:

Undead (also Risen & Shiro’ken) – When a soul/spirit is forced back into a body, it becomes a type of undead. The body might not be the original body of the victim (as seen in Shiro’ken). These undeads are capable of thoughts and feelings. But they rarely have full control of their actions. That means an undead father might end up killing his own daughter and son, because he cannot control himself.

Mostly true, but alas, we have conflicting evidence on the spirit bit. In the vast majority of cases, rather the spirit is bound to the body or not is unaddressed. There are a couple times when a slain undead will with their last words thank you for freeing them, but there is also at least one case where a ghost is complaining about how her body is now an undead. There just isn’t convincing evidence either way.

Most liches does have a master. So the way I see it, liches are just the more powerful version of the undead. The “grand master” put liches in charge of their undead army.

Not true. Most of the liches we know of act independently. Khilbron, Joko, Zoldark, all of them worked by themselves to their own ends. The only so-called liches seen to serve a master are the two risen liches in GW2- and as they are risen, and as said master is an Elder Dragon, there’s a strong case to be made that their circumstances should be considered separately. Mazdak is even more bizarre, and so is even harded to pin down.

As for my thoughts on your origin theory, there’s sadly an almost complete lack of evidence. Assuming Khilbron was not a lich during his tenure as Vizier (an assumption for which there is no evidence, I might add), he was changed in the Cataclysm, which is itself fully mysterious magic. None of the others even have that much- there is no mention of Joko or Zoldak’s lives before turning, and Mazdak and the risen liches may or may not have been liches before Zhaitan corrupted them. The assertion that self-willed liches turned themselves undead is as good a hypothesis as any other, but one we lack the means to test or prove.

EDIT: It occurs to me that you may have been referring to Abaddon when talking about masters. There’s no sign that he played a role in Khilbron’s actions between the Cataclysm and Khilbron’s destruction. If anything, the dialogue with the agent Abaddon had assigned to manipulate Khilbron suggests that they had discarded and forgotten him after the destruction of Arah. Khilbron’s belief that he required the Scepter of Orr is further evidence- if he was obeying Abaddon, he would not have needed some relic to make Abaddon’s servants work towards his ends.

Yes I admit that my views on Lichs are based on speculations. Not everything about them are solid facts. That’s why I said “the way I see it”.

The spirits that say “Thanks for freeing me” were obviously forced to fight. We seen this many times with the Shiro’kens.

The spirits in Orr that said “My body is now an undead” is not inside his/her original body. That body is now an undead controlled by another spirit. The original spirit (e.g. that ghost NPC) wasn’t the spirit controlling her/her body right now. Instead another spirit has entered and took control of that body.

The Shiro’kens were in a similar situation. Shiro made/found new bodies to host the spirits of these “former heroes”.

So the way I see it (specualtion), all undead/shiro’ken/risen that we see do have souls inside of them. Risens for example will always say a sentence before they fight you. But the soul inside right now may not be the same as the original owner of that body. Charr Spirit #103 maybe inside Human Body # 67. Asura Spirit # 43 maybe inside Norn Body # 90. etc.

The reason I have the above speculation is because without a soul, there is no explanation why these undead would have full skill bars. If we look at necromancer’s flesh minions, their skills are very limited. They mostly just go after the foe and start swinging their arms. For the undead to use knowledge in magic and sword swinging skills, a soul (with battle experience) is required.

I guess saying “Lichs have masters” was the wrong wording. I was trying to point out that most Lichs’ power came from another source. But this is indeed all speculation. We do not know where Khilbron and Joko got their power, for example. We do not know how Livia (maybe a lich) survived for hundreds of years neither. The power might have came from another powerful being. Or they “trained themselves” until they got that strong. No one knows.

I do believe that most Lichs are “undead” themselves. Once again this is speculation. Joko might actually be considered alive, for example. And like Livia we have no idea how anyone can actually survive for so many years.

Somebody in Anet (I forget who) explicitly said people can use magic to prolong their lives to the point of living to GW2.

It’s not stated to be a necromancer thing in specific.

I am unsure if I believe most undead have a soul/spirit in them as opposed to simply being animated by magic.

Kalavier.1097:

Somebody in Anet (I forget who) explicitly said people can use magic to prolong their lives to the point of living to GW2.

It’s not stated to be a necromancer thing in specific.

I am unsure if I believe most undead have a soul/spirit in them as opposed to simply being animated by magic.

Nearly all Risen that you encounter will say something (e.g. “Eat Pain!” or “Death, good!”) before they fight you. Maybe that is “Zhaitan speaking to you” directly. That is possible. But I believe that the Risens actually have souls/spirits inside of them.

We know only higher ranking ones have sentience, and thus probably souls. The rest? It’s not really stated.

CHIPS, Romke’s Final Voyage and Crusader Aliyana proves your belief wrong. While some risen have souls, it is obvious that not all do – and those that are confirmed to have souls are the intelligent ones, and by intelligent I mean "can say more than simple phrases like ‘death, good’ and can do more tactical actions than zerging all the things – aka more intelligent than your average risen you encounter, which includes Romke and his crew’s corpses).

Also, I recall the GW1 undead of Orr being outright called soulless. As are risen (‘His soulless army surged from the waters, hungry for destruction.’) on a few occasions.

Kalavier.1097:

We know only higher ranking ones have sentience, and thus probably souls. The rest? It’s not really stated.

Eh… yes and no. They certainly don’t demonstrate advanced tactics (I believe in the PS it was stated that left alone, they’d just alternate between lurking and swarming), but in SoS we saw that even the lowliest deckhands on one of Zhaitan’s ships displayed detailed memory of their past lives and recognition of those they knew when they were alive. I’d tentatively argue from this evidence that all risen are “sentient”, but feel no desire to converse unless they knew the person in a past life- and then only to such an extent as serves Zhaitan’s ends.

Those risen in that final battle in SoS don’t really act like the grunt risen though. More of the lower ranked sentient minions. There is more than just two kinds of sentience in Dragon minions after all – ad evident by all the veteran-ranked risen that show sentience, sentience I might add, on par to those talking ones in SoS sans Whiting whom was far more sentient acting and self-serving (like the Mouths, Eyes, and Morgue Lethe).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CHIPS, Romke’s Final Voyage and Crusader Aliyana proves your belief wrong. While some risen have souls, it is obvious that not all do – and those that are confirmed to have souls are the intelligent ones, and by intelligent I mean "can say more than simple phrases like ‘death, good’ and can do more tactical actions than zerging all the things – aka more intelligent than your average risen you encounter, which includes Romke and his crew’s corpses).

Also, I recall the GW1 undead of Orr being outright called soulless. As are risen (‘His soulless army surged from the waters, hungry for destruction.’) on a few occasions.

Seeing Aliyana’s spirit and body separately only proves that Aliyana’s spirit wasn’t inside her own body. But another foreign spirit (I cannot stress this enough) might be inside Crusader Aliyana’s body. Same thing with Romke.

And there is no such a thing as semi-intelligent. It is either totally mindless or do have a mind. Speech, any speech, means intelligence. We can see that all Risen are capable of speech. “Death, Good!” is indeed a very simple thing to say. But the Risen must be intelligent to say this. There is no way a “totally mindless” being can say “Death, Good!”

Furthermore “Death is Good!” is an opinion, further proving the intelligence behind this speech. It wasn’t a simple scream ROAR in anger like an animal.

It is possible that “Death, Good!” actually came directly from Zhaitan himself. In this case then perhaps none of the Risen are intelligent. Every single word we ever heard from any Risen came directly from Zhaitan. I personally do not believe this, but I am not ruling out this possibility.

The narrator’s speech also isn’t decisive. He said “soulless army” as if the whole army is soulless. But even you agree that at least some of thee Risen does have soul/spirit inside of them. By soulless, the narrator probably meant “killing without mercy”.

Kalavier.1097:

We know only higher ranking ones have sentience, and thus probably souls. The rest? It’s not really stated.

Yes it wasn’t really stated. That’s why it is up to speculation. But because of their intelligent speeches I lean forward the “Risens have souls/spirits inside” theory.

Shiro’kens and Awakened are stated to have souls/spirits inside. That’s why they are so strong. I believe that Risens/undeads goes along similar designs.

Even new risen have some memories of their lives. Conscript the Dead Ship PS mission has a risen captain that finds Elli, the asura with the hologram familiar. After you defeat it, Elli confirms that she knew the asura.

While fighting on the third ship:

Crusader Eilye Jeyne: Watch it, they’re crawling up the outer hull!
Crusader Eilye Jeyne: Enemies on deck! Cut them down!
Elli: They’re coming in from the skies!
Crusader Eilye Jeyne: Careful! That lot looks like they’re commanding magic.
*Risen Captain Yejj: One of you seems familiar. Still, you will die all the same. *

After clearing the third ship:

Agent Zott: Elli, get a move on! Elli…? Elli, are you all right?
*Elli: I…I knew this one. His name was Yejj. He left Rata Sum to be a gladiator… *
Agent Zott: There, there, dear girl. Don’t give up now. Whatever would your imaginary holographic firends do without you?
Elli: Thank you, Zotty. Crusader Eilye, put out the last gangplank. I owe those Risen a punch in their guts.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conscript_the_Dead_Ships

A captain of a ship is likely to have more intelligence then a general thrall.

Basic Risen are mindless(mostly), as when they set up a trap in Forging the Pact (IIRC) the various npcs mention they’ve only seen Risen Lurk and swarm, and NEVER use tactics.

But where is the border where a person that turns risen retains some of its sentience? Or most of its sentience? Or come to think of it, how does that, the level of sentience connect to the use of magic? Up from the top of my head i cant remember a single animal or supposedly non-sentient creature that uses magic, and not just its unique physiology to produce spell-like effects (like the oozes for example, or the basilisks)

Truth is, “basic” risen and “intelligent or sentient” risen is just a semi-lore-friendly title we give to actual named enemies that we encounter in the game. Basic is the basic that only says “Death, good!” and thats basic because every risen says it, and the more intelligent risen is anything thats not just a Champion Basic Risen, but actually has some unique dialogue like the Mouth or Eye of Zhaitan or even the liches we meet.

CHIPS.6018:

Seeing Aliyana’s spirit and body separately only proves that Aliyana’s spirit wasn’t inside her own body. But another foreign spirit (I cannot stress this enough) might be inside Crusader Aliyana’s body. Same thing with Romke.

I don’t think this is even possible, given the fact that we’ve never seen or heard of this happening before. Corpses have always had their own souls or no souls put into them when undead were made.

CHIPS.6018:

And there is no such a thing as semi-intelligent. It is either totally mindless or do have a mind. Speech, any speech, means intelligence. We can see that all Risen are capable of speech. “Death, Good!” is indeed a very simple thing to say. But the Risen must be intelligent to say this. There is no way a “totally mindless” being can say “Death, Good!”

The memories of mere corpses are given to Zhaitan – memory of speech, the imbued fanaticism of dragon minions, this alone is enough to state simple two-word sentence. Self-intelligence is not needed, because they work with a hive mind connected to their dragon.

Furthermore, all of those whom have souls have their own souls – even when the souls were taken from the Underworld. Why would Zhaitan put new souls in, if he can control souls from the Mists and the body’s natural souls are nearby, in Tyria? Makes no sense.

CHIPS.6018:

Furthermore “Death is Good!” is an opinion, further proving the intelligence behind this speech.

The opinion Zhaitan instills upon them. It isn’t their intelligence, it’s Zhaitan’s intelligence.

CHIPS.6018:

Every single word we ever heard from any Risen came directly from Zhaitan. I personally do not believe this, but I am not ruling out this possibility.

That’s possible but I wouldn’t say “every single” as there are risen with explicit different personalities whom beseech Zhaitan, but these are only in those whom show actual intelligence – intelligence beyond simple 1 liners and swarming actions. Some veterans, champions, and legendaries (in mechanical rank), the dragon lieutenants and champions (in lore rank).

CHIPS.6018:

The narrator’s speech also isn’t decisive. He said “soulless army” as if the whole army is soulless. But even you agree that at least some of thee Risen does have soul/spirit inside of them. By soulless, the narrator probably meant “killing without mercy”.

It’s called generalization. Meaning that “not every single one, but the vast majority”. Also, the narrator’s a she. :P

CHIPS.6018:

Shiro’kens and Awakened are stated to have souls/spirits inside. That’s why they are so strong. I believe that Risens/undeads goes along similar designs.

Nothing says all Awakened have souls, actually. Only those whom speak and lead seem to. The officers and craftsmen. The grunts hold no indication of souls, though I may be wrong.

But they’re not strong because they have souls. They’re intelligent because they have souls. Otherwise they’d be lurkers and swarmers, only using more advanced tactics when directed by intelligent of their kind (like in GW1 Orrian undead cases – they flock to the names bosses, and otherwise would just lurk until living come nearby; same with Risen).

lakdav.3694:

Even new risen have some memories of their lives. Conscript the Dead Ship PS mission has a risen captain that finds Elli, the asura with the hologram familiar. After you defeat it, Elli confirms that she knew the asura.

Mechanically, that captain is a veteran. Lorewise, he’d be akin to the weakest ones with intellect per the other veterans with speech (I don’t think we ever see a normal ranked foe with intelligent speech). Which seems to be what most of SoS’s speaking risen seem to be.

So… are we saying “soul” and “mind” are synonymous here? If so, where’s the evidence?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says all Awakened have souls, actually. Only those whom speak and lead seem to. The officers and craftsmen. The grunts hold no indication of souls, though I may be wrong.

If we are indeed assuming that a soul is required to retain a mind, personality, and memories, then Hareh makes a compelling case for even the lowliest Awakened retaining their souls.

“Soul” and “mind” are typically synonymous in almost all fictions and even all actual philosophies. Not a stance I personally hold but still – without a soul, in almost everything there is (I use “almost” because I, personally, have not seen/read/played all fictions so there may be some out there I do not know of, but of those I do know of they always retain this shared concept) to be soulless is to be mindless, and vice versa, as the mind is part of or synonymous with the soul.

There’s really no concrete means of saying this is true in Guild Wars, because it just isn’t ever brought up. But the things without a soul certainly do not hold any free will and do not speak unless sharing mental thoughts with another (dragon minions, and even then, only certain low icebrood and branded are the only ones who speak besides risen), and those with a soul always have intelligence – though sometimes bound by another (djinn, Shiro’ken, Afflicted, risen, etc.).

Also the fact that Hareh and other awakened are being encountered for… how many years after Joko was imprisoned and thus had no control?

It was roughly 200 years prior to GW1 that he was imprisoned. Though honestly, his control seems more like the control a king has, rather than the control a necromancer has over his minions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CHIPS.6018:

Seeing Aliyana’s spirit and body separately only proves that Aliyana’s spirit wasn’t inside her own body. But another foreign spirit (I cannot stress this enough) might be inside Crusader Aliyana’s body. Same thing with Romke.

I don’t think this is even possible, given the fact that we’ve never seen or heard of this happening before. Corpses have always had their own souls or no souls put into them when undead were made.

We know for a fact that Shiro’kens do not use their original body. The Shiro’ken mesmers and elementalist looks like a bird (Phoenix). There is no human that looks anything like a phoenix.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shiro%27ken_Mesmer

They also have bodies that resemble Kirins and Nagas.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shiro%27ken_Monk
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shiro%27ken_Ritualist

Some of the victim spirits inside Shiro’kens have died for hundreds of years. Their bodies would have decayed to bones long time ago. Their original bodies cannot be made to fight again.

The official wiki said the following:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shiro%27ken

“The Shiro’ken are the animated constructs that serve Shiro Tagachi. They appear to be made out of flesh, bones, steel and stone. The bodies of Shiro’ken are referred to as “soul binders.” The soul binders use Soul Stones which contain souls against their will, and in turn utilizing the abilities of the bound spirit. Stronger spirits, such as those of Tahnnakai Temple are capable of resisting the complete control of the Shiro’ken, but cannot control the soul binders themselves. Shiro is capable of possessing and taking direct control of Shiro’ken at will"

If souls can be put into newly constructed “flesh, bones, steel and stone”, souls can also be put into dead bodies of another person.

Why would Zhaitan put new souls in, if he can control souls from the Mists and the body’s natural souls are nearby, in Tyria? Makes no sense.

Has it been stated that Zhaitan have total control over the whole Mist and Underworld? The fact that we can still enter the Mist in GW2 states otherwise.

I believe Zhaitan captures spirits and ghosts from Kryta itself. Spirits and ghosts do exist in the “living” world. But this is of course speculation.

The opinion Zhaitan instills upon them. It isn’t their intelligence, it’s Zhaitan’s intelligence.

Let’s say we see a Risen warrior using the skill “Hundred Blades”. That skill actually would take knowledge/training to use. So who has that knowledge? A spirit/soul inside that Risen? Or was it Zhaitan taking personal control of that Risen and using “Hundred Blades”?

I personal think there is a spirit/soul inside that Risen warrior. But it is speculation. Maybe it was indeed all Zhaitan.

CHIPS.6018:

Has it been stated that Zhaitan have total control over the whole Mist and Underworld? The fact that we can still enter the Mist in GW2 states otherwise.

I believe Zhaitan captures spirits and ghosts from Kryta itself. Spirits and ghosts do exist in the “living” world. But this is of course speculation.

The personal story step with the reaper does say that Zhaitan managed to steal the soul of one of Grenth’s own priests from the Underworld. Assuming Grenth is unlikely to give his own priesthood less protection in death than the rank-and-file dead, that seems to indicate Zhaitan can get to just about any soul in the Underworld.

That does beg the question, though, of rather Zhaitan went to the trouble of deliberately pulling a soul from the afterlife, or if that kind of thing just happens as a side effect of corruption- if the later, it is likely that the vast majority of risen, mooks or not, have souls, and oddly enough remaining in Tyria as a ghost might be the only way to keep out of his reach. If the former, we must then ask also why Zhaitan didn’t do this for all of his minions- assuming as the lot of you do, that the soul is correlated with powerful minions, the cost must have been high enough to make it untenable on a mass scale, which would pose its own questions and implications regarding the interplay between the Elder Dragons, the Gods, and the Mists.

CHIPS, the difference between Shiro’Ken and what I was talking about is the fact that Shiro’Ken are not undead. They are not corpses, they are objects, which is fundamentally different than full out corpses because one is flesh and bone and the other is not. While one may not think it different from a scientific standpoint (both are matter, after all), it is often taken differently from a fantasy viewpoint, and you can even argue it’s the type of material that changes thing.

Shiro’Ken’s bodies may be made of flesh, bone, steel, and stone, but the souls just inhabit the soul part – specifically Soul Stones. Much akin to Soul Batteries and the Door of Komalie.

CHIPS.6018:

Has it been stated that Zhaitan have total control over the whole Mist and Underworld? The fact that we can still enter the Mist in GW2 states otherwise.

I believe Zhaitan captures spirits and ghosts from Kryta itself. Spirits and ghosts do exist in the “living” world. But this is of course speculation.

I never said Zhaitan has taken total control over the Mists/Underworld. But we know for a fact he has pulled souls from the Underworld from the “Cathedral of Silence”: story mission, where the Seventh Reaper states:

The Seventh Reaper: The keeper of this shrine has fallen to Zhaitan. Grenth wishes him returned, but I am too weak to perform the task. Destroy the keeper, and I will amswer your questions.
Trahearne: Thank you, dark Reaper. We will do as you have asked.
Avatar of Grenth: Destroy the corruption. Return the soul of the keeper. Go.

To be returned to Grenth, he must have been taken from Grenth.

And then the Keeper says:

Risen Keeper of the Shrine: I won’t return to the Mists. I’m faithful to you, Zhaitan. Save me!

If the keeper alone said this, I would be doubtful, but backed by the Reaper, even though his wording is a bit ambiguous, shows the case in full.

CHIPS.6018:

Let’s say we see a Risen warrior using the skill “Hundred Blades”. That skill actually would take knowledge/training to use. So who has that knowledge? A spirit/soul inside that Risen? Or was it Zhaitan taking personal control of that Risen and using “Hundred Blades”?

The body’s memory, most likely. Things like reflexes. Or what the brain has known. How the whole “Zhaitan knows all his minions know” thing works is unknown in regards to how much pre-corruption is known – or maybe it was never that warrior’s knowledge, but another’s.

Memory=/=mind. A computer has memory, but you can’t say it has mind. It can perform tasks when ordered to do so, including “saying” things. However, it can’t think independently, that would require a mind.

So what am I saying? All risen have their memory more or less intact(explains how all those farmers keep tilling the ground in Orr), but only those powerful enough have had the ties between their soul and their body enforced. I presume these risen with souls are higher in the hierarchy of their forces because they have souls, not the other way around, them having souls because of their status.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

CHIPS.6018:

Has it been stated that Zhaitan have total control over the whole Mist and Underworld? The fact that we can still enter the Mist in GW2 states otherwise.

I believe Zhaitan captures spirits and ghosts from Kryta itself. Spirits and ghosts do exist in the “living” world. But this is of course speculation.

The personal story step with the reaper does say that Zhaitan managed to steal the soul of one of Grenth’s own priests from the Underworld. Assuming Grenth is unlikely to give his own priesthood less protection in death than the rank-and-file dead, that seems to indicate Zhaitan can get to just about any soul in the Underworld.

That does beg the question, though, of rather Zhaitan went to the trouble of deliberately pulling a soul from the afterlife, or if that kind of thing just happens as a side effect of corruption- if the later, it is likely that the vast majority of risen, mooks or not, have souls, and oddly enough remaining in Tyria as a ghost might be the only way to keep out of his reach. If the former, we must then ask also why Zhaitan didn’t do this for all of his minions- assuming as the lot of you do, that the soul is correlated with powerful minions, the cost must have been high enough to make it untenable on a mass scale, which would pose its own questions and implications regarding the interplay between the Elder Dragons, the Gods, and the Mists.

Alright so we can confirm that Zhaitan can pull souls from the Underworld. But I don’t think he got full control over the Underworld. Dhumm would have to be dead/corrupted for that to happen. Maybe this explains why the likes of Gwen, Cynn and Mhenlo (powerful heroes at the time) wasn’t pulled from the Underworld and forced/corrupted to fight for Zhaitan. They reside in an area of the Underworld that remains untouched by Zhaitan.

It is also unclear if all 100% of his minions’ souls came from the Underworld. Because if he can access the underworld, he most likely have no problem taking/corrupting souls in the living world. But then we see all those wondering ghosts in Ascalon and we got to wonder why they aren’t taken/corrupted. It is true that Ascalon isn’t directly under Zhaitan’s corruption. But if he can get to the underworld, one would expect him to get to Ascalon no problem.

Unlike Orochimaru and Kabuto, who can summon from the Underworld whoever they want, there does appear to be some sort of limit to Zhaitan’s ability to gather souls. Else we would see Prince Rurik and many others.

Or maybe Zhaitan just yoinked souls from the underworld for important Orrian people, like kings/queens, priests, etc.

If he doesn’t know about any of the GW1 heroes, why would he take their souls?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CHIPS, the difference between Shiro’Ken and what I was talking about is the fact that Shiro’Ken are not undead. They are not corpses, they are objects, which is fundamentally different than full out corpses because one is flesh and bone and the other is not. While one may not think it different from a scientific standpoint (both are matter, after all), it is often taken differently from a fantasy viewpoint, and you can even argue it’s the type of material that changes thing.

I do agree it is speculation. But I was just pointing out that if souls can be put into inanimate objects (e.g. never ever alive), they might also be put into a foreign dead body (e.g. was alive at some point). A soul that’s 300 years old can only be put into a foreign body. His/her original body would have long decayed.

The body’s memory, most likely. Things like reflexes. Or what the brain has known. How the whole “Zhaitan knows all his minions know” thing works is unknown in regards to how much pre-corruption is known – or maybe it was never that warrior’s knowledge, but another’s.

A dead body does not have memory. The soul/spirit is where the memories/training is. In certain sci-fi it is possible to get memory from a dead body (e.g. dead brain cells). But I don’t think that’s the case in GW. Else, what’s stopping us good-guy necros from taking advantage of that? We good-guy necros should be able to summon a warrior minion that can use Hundred Blades and a elementalist minion that can use Meteor Shower, if that dead body have memories.

Kalavier.1097:

Or maybe Zhaitan just yoinked souls from the underworld for important Orrian people, like kings/queens, priests, etc.

If he doesn’t know about any of the GW1 heroes, why would he take their souls?

Because GW1 heroes are powerful. They defeated the Shiro’kens, who themselves were considered heroes of their time. They defeated Abaddon and the Great Destroyer.

Very few are as epic as GW1 heroes. So having them as minions will be very valuable.

There is, however, another possible explanation why they aren’t with Zhaitan: Joko was one step ahead of Zhaitan and already got all the GW1 heroes as his minions. I remember Joko saying in GW1 “If only I had guys like you back in the day, I would never have lost.”

If they ever bring back our GW1 characters/heroes as minions, I rather work under Joko. At least we kept our minds. :P

OR simply put, Zhaitan doesn’t KNOW ABOUT THEM. Shiro knew about those heroes, he knew about the temple.

Zhaitan? Does not.

Who, or what in Orr would know about them?

CHIPS.6018:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

CHIPS.6018:

Has it been stated that Zhaitan have total control over the whole Mist and Underworld? The fact that we can still enter the Mist in GW2 states otherwise.

I believe Zhaitan captures spirits and ghosts from Kryta itself. Spirits and ghosts do exist in the “living” world. But this is of course speculation.

The personal story step with the reaper does say that Zhaitan managed to steal the soul of one of Grenth’s own priests from the Underworld. Assuming Grenth is unlikely to give his own priesthood less protection in death than the rank-and-file dead, that seems to indicate Zhaitan can get to just about any soul in the Underworld.

That does beg the question, though, of rather Zhaitan went to the trouble of deliberately pulling a soul from the afterlife, or if that kind of thing just happens as a side effect of corruption- if the later, it is likely that the vast majority of risen, mooks or not, have souls, and oddly enough remaining in Tyria as a ghost might be the only way to keep out of his reach. If the former, we must then ask also why Zhaitan didn’t do this for all of his minions- assuming as the lot of you do, that the soul is correlated with powerful minions, the cost must have been high enough to make it untenable on a mass scale, which would pose its own questions and implications regarding the interplay between the Elder Dragons, the Gods, and the Mists.

Alright so we can confirm that Zhaitan can pull souls from the Underworld. But I don’t think he got full control over the Underworld. Dhumm would have to be dead/corrupted for that to happen. Maybe this explains why the likes of Gwen, Cynn and Mhenlo (powerful heroes at the time) wasn’t pulled from the Underworld and forced/corrupted to fight for Zhaitan. They reside in an area of the Underworld that remains untouched by Zhaitan.

It is also unclear if all 100% of his minions’ souls came from the Underworld. Because if he can access the underworld, he most likely have no problem taking/corrupting souls in the living world. But then we see all those wondering ghosts in Ascalon and we got to wonder why they aren’t taken/corrupted. It is true that Ascalon isn’t directly under Zhaitan’s corruption. But if he can get to the underworld, one would expect him to get to Ascalon no problem.

Unlike Orochimaru and Kabuto, who can summon from the Underworld whoever they want, there does appear to be some sort of limit to Zhaitan’s ability to gather souls. Else we would see Prince Rurik and many others.

I find the answer to be simple – Zhaitan had no control over Underworld, but since body and soul are tied to each other (otherwise there’d be a whole host of issues regarding resurrection, possession and other instances where a soul might leave the body and return later), the dragon may pull the corresponding soul back to the body, intentionally or consequentially. However, as I presented earlier, the weaker risen are without a soul, remaining as simple drones animated by the corruption, retaining their memory but not the mind.
EDIT: To make it clear, I mean that to pull a soul from the Underworld, the dragon requires the corresponding body.

Tuomir.1830:

EDIT: To make it clear, I mean that to pull a soul from the Underworld, the dragon requires the corresponding body.

Exactly. He can drag the spirits of the priests and kings back to their body, but can’t simply steal whatever one he wants from the underworld.

Tuomir.1830:

CHIPS.6018:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

CHIPS.6018:

Has it been stated that Zhaitan have total control over the whole Mist and Underworld? The fact that we can still enter the Mist in GW2 states otherwise.

I believe Zhaitan captures spirits and ghosts from Kryta itself. Spirits and ghosts do exist in the “living” world. But this is of course speculation.

The personal story step with the reaper does say that Zhaitan managed to steal the soul of one of Grenth’s own priests from the Underworld. Assuming Grenth is unlikely to give his own priesthood less protection in death than the rank-and-file dead, that seems to indicate Zhaitan can get to just about any soul in the Underworld.

That does beg the question, though, of rather Zhaitan went to the trouble of deliberately pulling a soul from the afterlife, or if that kind of thing just happens as a side effect of corruption- if the later, it is likely that the vast majority of risen, mooks or not, have souls, and oddly enough remaining in Tyria as a ghost might be the only way to keep out of his reach. If the former, we must then ask also why Zhaitan didn’t do this for all of his minions- assuming as the lot of you do, that the soul is correlated with powerful minions, the cost must have been high enough to make it untenable on a mass scale, which would pose its own questions and implications regarding the interplay between the Elder Dragons, the Gods, and the Mists.

Alright so we can confirm that Zhaitan can pull souls from the Underworld. But I don’t think he got full control over the Underworld. Dhumm would have to be dead/corrupted for that to happen. Maybe this explains why the likes of Gwen, Cynn and Mhenlo (powerful heroes at the time) wasn’t pulled from the Underworld and forced/corrupted to fight for Zhaitan. They reside in an area of the Underworld that remains untouched by Zhaitan.

It is also unclear if all 100% of his minions’ souls came from the Underworld. Because if he can access the underworld, he most likely have no problem taking/corrupting souls in the living world. But then we see all those wondering ghosts in Ascalon and we got to wonder why they aren’t taken/corrupted. It is true that Ascalon isn’t directly under Zhaitan’s corruption. But if he can get to the underworld, one would expect him to get to Ascalon no problem.

Unlike Orochimaru and Kabuto, who can summon from the Underworld whoever they want, there does appear to be some sort of limit to Zhaitan’s ability to gather souls. Else we would see Prince Rurik and many others.

I find the answer to be simple – Zhaitan had no control over Underworld, but since body and soul are tied to each other (otherwise there’d be a whole host of issues regarding resurrection, possession and other instances where a soul might leave the body and return later), the dragon may pull the corresponding soul back to the body, intentionally or consequentially. However, as I presented earlier, the weaker risen are without a soul, remaining as simple drones animated by the corruption, retaining their memory but not the mind.
EDIT: To make it clear, I mean that to pull a soul from the Underworld, the dragon requires the corresponding body.

If what you said is true, there are 3 problems that need to be addressed.

1) Aliyana’s body was turned into a Risen. Zhaitan clearly got full control over her body. So what made her soul “unreachable” by Zhaitan? Why wasn’t her soul forced back into her own body to fight? How was she able to keep her soul from corruption?

Aliyana’s soul wasn’t in the Underworld neither, since she was seen wondering around in the living world. So even if Zhaitan got minimum control over the Underworld, Aliyana should still have been corrupted on the spot in Mount Maelstrom. She was killed by Risen, so Zhaitan knew she was there.

My conclusion: Aliyana’s soul wasn’t needed because Zhaitan already has more than enough “spare” souls to put into dead bodies.

2) If dead bodies have memories, why aren’t the “good guy” necromancers taking advantage of this? Why isn’t there necromancer minions using Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower?

In GW1 necromancers summons minions directly from dead humans all the time. Often times this is done on their very own allies! So morality/legality isn’t the problem here.

My conclusion: Necromancer minions cannot use Hundred Blades and Meteor Shower because those skills requires a soul/mind to use. And forcing a spirit to fight is illegal. There is no memory in a dead body.

3) Prince Rurik’s soul was forced back into his own body, and forced to fight against the players in GW1. Why is this even needed, if his “soulless” dead body will fight just as well by memory alone?

GW minions don’t resemble humans at all most of the time. Besides, who says meteor shower or hundred blades is the best thing to use?

“Forcing a spirit to fight is illegal” Ahem. Ritualists

Also, Crusader Aliyana… simple. Her role in the squad/as a risen wasn’t needing her spirit to be shackled with it. Just like Romke and her crew.

However a priest of a god or the king? That’s something where the spirit would increase the Risen forms power by a good bit.

Again about Rurik, likely a thing where you can have a powerful minion, but putting the soul into it buffs the power.

Kalavier.1097:

GW minions don’t resemble humans at all most of the time. Besides, who says meteor shower or hundred blades is the best thing to use?

“Forcing a spirit to fight is illegal” Ahem. Ritualists

Also, Crusader Aliyana… simple. Her role in the squad/as a risen wasn’t needing her spirit to be shackled with it. Just like Romke and her crew.

However a priest of a god or the king? That’s something where the spirit would increase the Risen forms power by a good bit.

Again about Rurik, likely a thing where you can have a powerful minion, but putting the soul into it buffs the power.

Dude that’s my question.

Why bother summoning minions (doesn’t look like humans) from dead bodies, when you can just resurrect+enslave a dead body as it is and it will be nearly as strong as it was when it was alive due to body memory? Why bother summoning something weaker?

If my necro can summon an undead warrior, who are nearly as strong as a real warrior, she would effectively have doubled her personal contribution to a party. My necro is no longer just one necro. It is necro+warrior.

And then the second, and the third. Before we know it my necromancer would be doing the work of 3 or 4 players. This is by far stronger than a bunch of mindless minions.

Orochimaru and Kabuto’s resurrected “S-Rank” ninjas are far stronger than the “mindless” Zetsu army(not really mindless, but you get the idea), for example.

Like you said, having Rurik’s spirit inside his undead body makes the undead Rurik stronger. My question is why didn’t Zhaitan force Aliyana’s spirit to fight? Aliyana might not be the strongest warrior out there, but having her soul inside the Risen is still stronger than a mindless Risen.

The most sensible reason (that I can think of) why Zhaitan didn’t use Aliyana’s spirit is because he putted a “stronger spirit” inside her Risen body.

The second reason would be “Zhaitan did everything” theory. Zhaitan took total control of Aliyana’s body and made her use Hundred Blades. So there is no need at all for Aliyana’s spirit. I don’t really buy this reason but I agree it is possible.

The third reason is “memory inside body”, which I don’t buy at all. Because if its true, my necromancer would be summoning undead elementalists. :P

As for Ritualist, from my understanding, they asks their ancestors/volunteers spirits to help them fight. They didn’t force unwilling spirits to fight. Speculation, of course.

To your three points CHIPS:

1) More likely event is that Aliyana’s body doesn’t have a soul. Because with your theory you have the question: Where did Zhaitan get these excess souls where he can just ignore the occasional soul like Aliyana and Romke and his crew?

2) Because necromancers cannot learn their minions’ memories? Or if you mean why wouldn’t the undead use the abilities of their bodies’ capabilities while alive, who says they don’t? It’s not like necromancer’s undead – the more evolved kind, not the shambling piles of flesh and bone that are player necromancers’ undead – aren’t without a variety of capabilities.

3) Because he wouldn’t talk. It is a case of psychological attacks. Rather than “I must slay the soulless husk that once was my friend and prince!” it becomes “I must kill the undead self-aware but not self-controlling body of whom was once my friend and prince!” There’s a big difference on the impact of it, and though it didn’t work to players because “mechanics!”, Rurik was supposed to be a liked figure and a friend (same with Togo, Kormir, DE, the Biconics, mentors, and Trahearne).

That was the point of bringing back Rurik – not Rurik’s capabilities, but his ties to the PC. And a mindless, soulless, husk of a mobile body wouldn’t hold the same impact.