Guild Wars 2

As the title says; the Guild Wars universe has several unsolved mysteries and pieces of lore that we don’t quite know about. Everyone must have a special list of them that they’d like to know about, so what’re yours? And do you have any theories about them?

I’ve my own little list I will write down later, since I’m busy right now, but I’d like to read what you guys have on mind. Hopefully we can build a nice discussion here and learn more about the incredible lore behind this game with everyone’s input!

I’d like to know the secrets of Tyrian Breadmaking. A little while ago, I got the “Eat 25 things” for my daily by eating 25 loaves of bread I am quite sure I made back when I joined in August. Preservatives, man.

Though, seriously, I’d like to learn more about Humanity and it’s origins and such. Maybe when we return to Cantha in about 5 years, we’ll get to go south and see the place humans originally came in. That or I’d like to see the fate of the Scepter of Orr, after Eye of the North.

I would also very much like to learn what became of Livia and the Scepter of Orr, considering how big of a plot device it was in Prophecies it seems odd to leave such a powerful artifact in unknown status.

My personal list:

1. Setta Bladestrong and the mesmer Blackheart. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Setta_Bladestrong

Always been curious about who she might be, what happened to her and who this Blackheart mesmer is. Sounds like an interesting enemy.

2. As others have mentioned, Livia and the Scepter of Orr. What happened to her and it? Where is the scepter now?

3. Garrenhoff. Who’s this so called magician, that apparentely uses human souls in order to seal them inside elementals? With what purpose?

4. Where are the two other Bloodstones? What is happening/happened to the known three?

5. Humanity and it’s origins as well. If they ever open up south of Cantha, I guess we will get some answers to that.

6. The Colossus and Tyrian general life back in the origins of the world.

@BunnytheSwordsman Rotten food is still food, I guess! Or magical preservatives.

Information I’m particularly interested in? Hell, all of it. But if I had to chose a top 10 or something, I guess I’d go with these:

1. Origins of humanity. Specifically, I’d like to know why they and the Six came to Tyria. Is my theory of fleeing a devastation correct? What exactly is with the confusion in the timeline about humanity supposedly being brought to the world at Orr, but being on Cantha 500+ years prior to any human recording of being on continental Tyria? Where is this supposed homeland that’s south of Cantha? I’d also love to know more on general historical lore – the further back we go, even in human history, except for when the Empire of the Dragon was born we get less and less records all the major clumps of known history pretty much at 200 years prior to GW1.
2. The previous Elder Dragon rise. There’s a lot of gaps in that still, despite how many dots we have connected. How long ago was it? What was the order of events (mursaat betrayal, forgotten freeing glint, making of the Bloodstones, etc.)? Why did the mursaat betray the others and nearly wipe out the Seers (particularly the second part) before fleeing the world? Why did they even return? Did the Forgotten truly come from the Mists by the Six’s request and if not then why are they so devout to them in the Realm of Torment?
3. History of the Six Gods. Specifically who Abaddon’s predecessor was, why Balthazar was carrying his father’s head, what was it that happened in the Mists that only Abaddon remembers, what’re Lyssa’s origins, what’s Menzies’ status in godhood, why was Dhuum an accepted god if he was so harsh (was he always so?), and why did Lyssa have to help others forget something?
4. What’s with the change between all the GW1 depictions of Grenth as an old man with a long beard/goat skull, but GW2’s new statue being that of a young muscular man in a helmet, little different than Balthazar?
5. What’s the story of the nations – such as who and when they were – that abused the power of the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists? And what’re their origins?
6. I’d love to see how Cantha has progressed. Has it retained its tyrannical imperialism, or has Cantha followed its history of extreme emperors countered by their successors? Has it progressed in technology ala Industrial Revolution, or did it suffer the negative side of mercantilism like Spain? Is the empire still fully united? How much de-petrification has occurred?
7. Arachnia’s canonocity.
8. Palawa Joko’s origins.
9. Curious as to how much (and what) of what Thurln the Lost says is truth and what’s false.
10. Who is the Teller of Tales?

Eluveitie.1290:

3. Garrenhoff. Who’s this so called magician, that apparentely uses human souls in order to seal them inside elementals? With what purpose?

There’s no solid indication that he seals souls within those elementals. Just that they seem to be enslaved, and oddly sentient (though it may be simple misunderstanding to think that elementals aren’t sentient), and people are invited but never return. He may be doing something else – or nothing at all – with their souls. And elementals are, by nature, not docile beings.

1. Temple of Balthazar in Maguuma. Who built it? The druids?

2. The Druids. Who were they, really? We know so little of them.

3. Crystal Desert giant bones. There are many theories about them, but what’s the truth?

4. Glints eggs. Did any of them grow up? Also, the oldest known example of a dragon minion laying eggs.

5. The giant warrior statue in Crystal Desert. Who built it? Margonites? Turai Ossa’s pilgrimage?

6. Xunlai dimensional magic.

7. The Wizard’s Folly tower. Completely different in architecture from Ascalon, Dwarves and Kryta, and apparently magical in nature.

1) What did the gods message to kerrsh mean:

“An offering to those who seek”
“Beyond the mists beyond the dreams”
“On distant shores of a land unwaking”
“Answers there lie in waiting”

If you think of mists as mist on the sea, it points to Orr, but there weren’t many answers there about the eternal alchemy. So perhaps it means the actual mists, but how can there be anything beyond the mists.

2) The origins of the asura, its mentioned they aren’t as old as dwarves, but there’s no mention of where they came from. It’s as if they just magically appeared underground one day.

3) The old gods that came before abaddon, like arachnia:

“Arachnia is the name of a dead spider god which is said to be older than Abaddon and the other Human Gods.Arachnia is never mentioned directly in the game, however, within the gw.dat there are descriptions of landmarks that bring up the name a couple times alongside mention of “gods of insectoid beings.”

Even if it wasn’t mentioned in GW1, it was seen, most of the realm of tormented was made of giant dead insects and spiders.

More info on insectoid elder gods would be awesome.

4) Kanaxai and the nightmare horde. There’s just no info on him at all, other than he’s a demon.

5) Livia and the Scepter of Orr.

6) What happened to Evennia, her ghost isn’t in ascalon.

7) Bahltek, how did he know about things in Arah, like the mursaat dimension and the Jotun’s work with stars.

8) What was the Mysterious Lich about.

Interesting that all these are really questions about GW1… a game which actually had interesting lore.

9) Why did Chauncey von Snuffles III come second, was it rigged? Was it part of a Mursaat plot to retake kryta? Were rumors of a stone dwarf on the judging panel true? Was the winning cat actually the colossus in disguise?

I have many wonders.

1. Why did more towns and cities not survive? Temple of the Ages; Bergen Hot Springs; All the cities, camps, outposts, etc. in the Southern Shiverpeaks; Umbral Grotto, etc., etc., etc. Add the dungeons that should still be around and not underwater.

2. Where did some of the creatures go that are no longer fighting us? Dinosaurs, Simians, Aloes/Pods/Thorns, Mergoyles/Gargoyles, Hydra, etc.

3. When did Ogden decide to go through the transformation?

4. What happened to the other Tyrian Heroes? Olias, Livia, Hayda, Anton, Vekk, Xandra, Kahmu

5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners

6. What happened to the gravity on Tyria? It was so heavy 250 years ago people could not jump or swim.

So much lore, so many interesting things, and mostly all within GW1. Every day I feel like buying the games and playing them all. GW2 lore doesn’t quite attract me as much as GW1’s. At least this forum and their posters always give me something new to learn about. Thanks you for that!

@Konig Yeah, it was more of a personal theory and what I generally feel he/she/it is doing. Hopefully one day we will learn more.

Tuomir.1830:

2. The Druids. Who were they, really? We know so little of them.

They were Krytan humans who were forced into the Maguuma Jungle at some point in the past. There, they tended to the jungle, nurturing it and protecting it, until one day between 970 and 1060 AE they decided to no longer be human and became those ethereal treants.

Tuomir.1830:

5. The giant warrior statue in Crystal Desert. Who built it? Margonites? Turai Ossa’s pilgrimage?

Given the Duke Barradin’s crypt, and the heads found in The Catacombs in GW1, those seem to be Ascalonian in origin. Keep in mind that Ascalonians had some degree of explorers sent through the Crystal Desert into the Desolation – some found dead within Glint’s lair, and some ghosts found within The Desolation on excavations. Turai also mentions 2 groups following the Elonians, and we know of 4 groups who had spent time in the Crystal Desert: Margonites (way before Elonians), Elonians, Seekers, and Ascalonians.

It’s not confirmed, but it seems those giant statues are of Ascalonian origin.

Swizzle.7982:

1) What did the gods message to kerrsh mean:

“An offering to those who seek”
“Beyond the mists beyond the dreams”
“On distant shores of a land unwaking”
“Answers there lie in waiting”

If you think of mists as mist on the sea, it points to Orr, but there weren’t many answers there about the eternal alchemy. So perhaps it means the actual mists, but how can there be anything beyond the mists.

Jeff Grubb side-ways confirmed it was about Arah (aka, he said it may be pointing to Arah – he often puts everything accurate in “maybe-s” and “possible-s”), which does answer questions about the elder races and the Six Gods’ history.

jheryn.8390:

3. When did Ogden decide to go through the transformation?

Within 50 years, every dwarf had undergone the transformation. I know it’s not an exact “when” but it does give you a 49 year timeframe (1079 AE to 1128 AE).

jheryn.8390:

4. What happened to the other Tyrian Heroes? Olias, Livia, Hayda, Anton, Vekk, Xandra, Kahmu

We can find Anton’s ghost. I forget where though, but one can find him in-game. He’s in Gendarran Fields, I think…

jheryn.8390:

5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners

Wiped out when the first Orrian undead were taken care of.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tuomir.1830:

2. The Druids. Who were they, really? We know so little of them.

They were Krytan humans who were forced into the Maguuma Jungle at some point in the past. There, they tended to the jungle, nurturing it and protecting it, until one day between 970 and 1060 AE they decided to no longer be human and became those ethereal treants.

Which I say is relatively little knowledge. Forced into Maguuma? For what reason? Were they persecuted? What is their magic like, perhaps similar to ranger’s nature rituals? Was the ritual used to abandon their bodies for the ethereal ones in any way related to the ritual used by kurzicks to create juggernauts? There are many unanswered questions about them.

We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

A long time ago, a tribe of human druids ventured into the jungle to make peace with the jungle.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aurora_Glade_%28outpost%29

That’s all we really have on the matter of their traveling. Slap those two facts, add in Mazdak and the history of Kryta, and my suspicion is a continuation of drax’s theory about Kryta’s history – his theory being that when magic was granted by Abaddon, Kryta suffered a major devastating event that’s unrecorded to history hence why it seems to hold a 300 year historical gap. I’d further said theory in saying the original inhabitants were forced into the Maguuma Jungle to survive, effectively becoming the druids. We already know that Old Krytan existed back then, as Malchor used it, which the druids used. So it all fits. And if it were other humans which caused that devastating event, it’d match the oddness of the History of Tyria’s line – that humans chased druids from a jungle (from one jungle into another?).

Their magic seems more akin to the sylvari’s magic that grows plants, given the growing vine bridges and the supposedly-Druidic “houses” that look like glowing plants shaped like homes.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

4. What happened to the other Tyrian Heroes? Olias, Livia, Hayda, Anton, Vekk, Xandra, Kahmu

We can find Anton’s ghost. I forget where though, but one can find him in-game. He’s in Gendarran Fields, I think…

Gendarran Fields, Snowblind Peaks near Vollym’s Battle Pit

Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility.

This leads me to believe the druids were never human, but instead some older race, with strong ties to Tyria, perhaps born of it. Another possibility would be that they were servants of Melandru.

And it was that a tribe of godless humans wandered the land. Where camped did they lay waste, senselessly destroying everything nearby.

And so the tribe set out to find another camp, when suddenly sprouted a wall of thorny branches, which blocked their exit.

Then saith Ewan, leader of the tribe, “Know ye our ways. Whosoever does magic in this tribe shall be put to death.”

Yet none comes forward. Then, from the earth grows forth a large tree, and unfurling its branches, reveals the upper torso of a woman. Saith She, “I am Melandru, the Mother of earth and nature. Henceforth I bind ye to these lands. When they suffer, so shall ye suffer.”

And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.

(Scriptures of Melandru)
The scriptures talk of godless humans, but as is the case often with human legends in Guild Wars, chances are it’s not exactly true. Imagine this: Melandru turns Orr into a “green and flowering expanse”, to which arrives a tribe of non-humans (as humans have yet to arrive in Tyria). This tribe, like in the scriptures, treats nature unkindly, infuriating Melandru. Melandru turns the tribe into stewards of nature, binding them to Tyria’s nature. In come humans. Humans drive these stewards out of the “jungle” that was Orr. Much later, druids abandon the bodies they had in order to be even closer to nature.

Now another interesting point. The Scepter of Orr was uncovered in Majesty’s Rest in Maguuma, in a crypt. How did it end up there, when named after Orr, and the twin staff of it was found in Desolation?

Tuomir.1830:

-snips-

The History of Tyria does seem to give that kind of indication, however, we are outright told druids were humans in two places, one of which is in the Aurora Glade outpost description I quoted before which said "_"A long time ago, a tribe of human druids ventured into the jungle to make peace with the jungle._ The other source is a blog post by Matthew Medina, the section written from an in-universe standpoint.

The druids are said to be followers of Melandru, and I always suspected they may have ties to Ewan’s tribe.

As to Majesty’s Rest – that’s actually not in Maguuma, but on the outskirts of Kryta – within a Krytan crypt at that. And as to how it got there, it’s unknown, BUT it was only there in the past year (it was lost in1071 AE, found in 1072 AE), as it was within Orr until the Cataclysm. Though it’s said to have been buried in crypts by the Gods due to the kingdoms’ which wielded the twin staves abusing their powers, apparently the Scepter of Orr was excavated while the Staff of the Mists was not (and apparently buried with the Primeval Kings since they’re the only ones known to have been buried in the Desolation, which no doubt aided in it being left alone).

The Scepter of Orr?
“Recently, a group of White Mantle scholars uncovered what they believe to be the Scepter of Orr, a powerful artifact once possessed by King Reza, the last king of Orr.”

How did it get lost in the first place?
“In the year 1062 AE, the Charr invaded all three human kingdoms. The continent of Tyria was in turmoil. The scepter was lost somewhere between when the Charr attacked Ascalon and when they reached the borders of Orr. Those who knew of its whereabouts were all killed in the Cataclysm. You see, when the Charr reached the Orrian capital city of Arah, the entire nation exploded in a flash of blinding light. Some say it was the vengeful wrath of the old gods. These days, though, only fools believe in the powers of Grenth, Balthazar, and the rest of the false pantheon. The more rational thinkers among the White Mantle believe the Cataclysm was the work of foul black magic, dragged form the forbidden tombs deep below the streets of Arah.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Karriya

Side note: the mention of 1062 is likely a typo of 1072, which in turn is likely a mistake intending to be 1070 (when the charr actually attacked all three nations).

One final note: the History of Tyria has been proven wrong in various places – though mainly concerning Abaddon and the origins of the world itself, but this may be yet another where the wording implies druids != humans.

So in the end, nice theorycrafting, but I suggest you do a bit more digging first. (Though first, you should probably read all sources I provide first, rather than focusing on the first source alone)

Some very good questions here. I thinks I should get my own list too. Mostly I’m interested in knowing the origin of humans and specially of the gods and how they got their powers and see if my theories match the reality or not. But there are many other things I would like to know, too many to make a single post about them I guess. Oh, I nearly forgot, I want to know if my theory of Owl being imprisioned in the mists (Jormag is already taking troops into the mist) is correct, specially since in F&F they suddenly added an Owl Shaman in the reconstruction of Cragstead (a mostly wolf devoted stead so it surprised me to find an Owl shaman) talking about his hope of making it come back if he spreads its wisdom it got me thinking if it was a sign of things to come.

Swizzle.7982:

9) Why did Chauncey von Snuffles III come second, was it rigged? Was it part of a Mursaat plot to retake kryta? Were rumors of a stone dwarf on the judging panel true? Was the winning cat actually the colossus in disguise?

Apparently for his Southsun dialogue lines, Lord Faren had something to do with that and he later took a vacation to Southsun to avoid the repercussions of what he did in the contest.

Yojimaru.4980:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

4. What happened to the other Tyrian Heroes? Olias, Livia, Hayda, Anton, Vekk, Xandra, Kahmu

We can find Anton’s ghost. I forget where though, but one can find him in-game. He’s in Gendarran Fields, I think…

Gendarran Fields, Snowblind Peaks near Vollym’s Battle Pit

Very interesting, I will go and check him, I love every reference to our GW1 buddies and Anton was one of my favorites!

It’s very interesting to see an Ascalonian ghost so far from Ascalon too.

My list:
1. What is the story behind the wizard’s tower and the elementals in Garenhoff?

2. Why are there no horses in Tyria…

3. What is it with trolls and gardening?

No more questions I can think of atm…

Personally, I’d like to know (in lurid detail) exactly what Gwen did to earn a title like “the Goremonger” from the Charr. They aren’t exactly a squeamish race after all…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

One possibility is that the Staff and Sceptre had some enchantment in place that would cause it to teleport to a new location to avoid being destroyed (although the Hallowed Point in the Desolation would be one way of bypassing that). We see it disappearing from Abaddon’s Mouth just before the volcano erupts – we’ve assumed that was Glint’s doing, but if the Sceptre itself engineered its own salvation, it could easily have done so to escape the Cataclysm as well.

Or maybe the Sceptre is just linked to Glint in general, and while she couldn’t prevent the Cataclysm, she could lift the Sceptre out and put it somewhere where it could be found and play its part in the Flameseeker Prophecies.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

3. When did Ogden decide to go through the transformation?

Within 50 years, every dwarf had undergone the transformation. I know it’s not an exact “when” but it does give you a 49 year timeframe (1079 AE to 1128 AE).

Thanks. I guess I should have known this since all dwarves were forced into the transformation.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

4. What happened to the other Tyrian Heroes? Olias, Livia, Hayda, Anton, Vekk, Xandra, Kahmu

We can find Anton’s ghost. I forget where though, but one can find him in-game. He’s in Gendarran Fields, I think…

Thanks again! Can’t wait to check that out.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners

Wiped out when the first Orrian undead were taken care of.

This is probably the only one I don’t agree with. They may have been wiped out in Tyria, but they should still be crawling all over Orr. Orr, I am sure had horsemen, dogs, clerics, etc. Maybe the clerics and executioners could be now known as shamans/priests and abominations, but the horsemen and hell hounds should still be there.

jheryn.8390:

6. What happened to the gravity on Tyria? It was so heavy 250 years ago people could not jump or swim.

The asura took care of it, you can see how many floating rocks they have in their area.

I like to know more about Giganticus Lupicus. We’ve only been able to see one and it’s corrupted

Any sources regarding the humanity of druids dating to GW1 time are under heavy doubt from me, as they hadn’t been seen in almost a hundred years. Also, the point about Majesty’s Rest was more about krytans pushing their kingdom all the way to the edge of Maguuma, hence the location of the crypt. Also, I find it interesting why the Scepter of Orr ended up there – surely it wasn’t just by chance, there must be some kind if significance to the place. Perhaps that is where the original owner of the staff was buried?

Long ago, the Staff of the Mists and the Scepter of Orr were given to the great nations of the world as protection. Predictably, those who wielded their power were corrupted. Terrible horrors were unleashed upon the lands once guarded by their benevolent power. The gods themselves were forced to intervene. They struck down both rulers, sealed the scepters within their tombs, and guarded them with powerful magic.

The Hallowed Point

The Margonites draw closer to finding what they seek. If they are not stopped, they will wreak havoc upon this world. One such demon seeks an ancient relic known as the Staff of the Mists. The scepter and its twin, the Scepter of Orr, were created long ago, when this desert was still an ocean. The Staff of the Mists contains great power, and allows the wielder to bend the fabric of reality. If the Margonites are allowed to possess the scepter, they will be unstoppable. You must find the scepter before they do at all costs. The Staff of the Mists lies buried beneath an altar in the southern regions of the Poisonous Badlands protected by ancient magic.

The Could Touch of the Past

Now, let’s look at the timeline.
205 BE humans appear on Tyrian content and in Elona.
175 BE Margonites settle along northern and wester coast of Elona, and Margonites roam the Unending Ocean.
100 BE Doric becomes the king in Ascalon.
1 BE Human gods give magic to the races of Tyria (by letting them tap into the bloodstones)
0 AE Exodus, Abaddon’s removal, Desolation is formed.

So, the staffs had to be created before 0 AE. They’re highly magical too, so it’s unlikely that they predate 1 BE. That’s a very specific time period for their creation. In fact, it ties them to the wars that resulted from the unlimited use of magic. But, the question of who owned the staffs remains, so let’s get on with the timeline.

29 AE Primeval Kings spread their rule into Vabbi and the Desolation, and begin to bury their dead rulers in tombs in the Crystal Desert.

Primeval Kings didn’t venture to the newly formed Desolation until almost 30 years later, but the Staff of the Mists was entombed with it’s owner there when he was struck down. So, who were there before the Primeval Kings? Margonites. Their temples and cities were build in Desolation, but most of them were whisked away to Realm of Torment alongside their people. However, not everything was removed (I guess the gods weren’t all that throughout…), a few temples and this tomb remained. So, the Staff of the Mists, staff used to control the physical world, was owned by an ancient Margonite King.

And the Scepter of Orr? Here comes the big thing. There was one king of humans at the time, and that was king Doric. King Doric, who prostrated before the gods in Arah to save humanity. King Doric, whose blood was used to seal the bloodstones, according to human legends. Stories tell how Doric made a long journey to Arah, so he didn’t rule from there. I presume the name “Scepter of Orr” comes from later, as the oldest known owner of it was Orrian. When the war of magic ravaged Tyria, Doric would have used the scepter of Orr to protect his kingdom, yet causing turmoil with it’s power. Realizing this, he offered himself to the gods, who split the boodstone, sealed it with Doric’s blood, and entombed him and his staff in Majesty’s Rest.

As for the Margonite king, the margonites defaced the statues of the five other gods than Abaddon and started warring against the followers of the other gods. When they were swiftly dealt with, their king was sealed in a tomb with his staff, much alike Doric.

Now that went on for quite a bit… and I didn’t even get to druids. I’ll write more on them later.

EDIT: Sigh, this is what I get for writing for so long, forgetting one of my key points. Sometime after 2 AE, when Orr became an independent kingdom, one of their kings recovered the Scepter from Doric’s tomb, perhaps to prove his lineage. When Orr sunk, I presume Vizier Khilbron had used it to commune with Abaddon, and the gods attempted to seal it away again in Doric’s tomb. The staff finds it way back to Vizier Khilbron, and after his defeat at Abaddon’s Mouth, the gods whisk it away once again.

jheryn.8390:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners

Wiped out when the first Orrian undead were taken care of.

This is probably the only one I don’t agree with. They may have been wiped out in Tyria, but they should still be crawling all over Orr. Orr, I am sure had horsemen, dogs, clerics, etc. Maybe the clerics and executioners could be now known as shamans/priests and abominations, but the horsemen and hell hounds should still be there.

One reasonably common theory is that the Vizier may have selectively grabbed what he thought would be the most powerful undead for his force – including the dragons, cavalry, and Orr’s standing army in general. This would also explain why Zhaitan’s army seems to have so little in the way of conventional soldiery (you also don’t see any archers in Zhaitan’s army but Khilbron’s was full of them, for instance).

draxynnic.3719:

jheryn.8390:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners

Wiped out when the first Orrian undead were taken care of.

This is probably the only one I don’t agree with. They may have been wiped out in Tyria, but they should still be crawling all over Orr. Orr, I am sure had horsemen, dogs, clerics, etc. Maybe the clerics and executioners could be now known as shamans/priests and abominations, but the horsemen and hell hounds should still be there.

One reasonably common theory is that the Vizier may have selectively grabbed what he thought would be the most powerful undead for his force – including the dragons, cavalry, and Orr’s standing army in general. This would also explain why Zhaitan’s army seems to have so little in the way of conventional soldiery (you also don’t see any archers in Zhaitan’s army but Khilbron’s was full of them, for instance).

Nice Explanation
I bet Zaithan was really angry with the Vizeir, haha

draxynnic.3719:

jheryn.8390:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners

Wiped out when the first Orrian undead were taken care of.

This is probably the only one I don’t agree with. They may have been wiped out in Tyria, but they should still be crawling all over Orr. Orr, I am sure had horsemen, dogs, clerics, etc. Maybe the clerics and executioners could be now known as shamans/priests and abominations, but the horsemen and hell hounds should still be there.

One reasonably common theory is that the Vizier may have selectively grabbed what he thought would be the most powerful undead for his force – including the dragons, cavalry, and Orr’s standing army in general. This would also explain why Zhaitan’s army seems to have so little in the way of conventional soldiery (you also don’t see any archers in Zhaitan’s army but Khilbron’s was full of them, for instance).

Ok, I can buy this, but completely wiped out without running into ANY in Orr? I’m not quite buying that. The Vizier surely would have picked up one of the undead giants too would he not. I’m not complaining, it just seems to be a little inconsistent. I think maybe developers were a little more worried about they types of undead they needed in Orr rather than continuity with undead in GW1.

Lokheit.7943:

Oh, I nearly forgot, I want to know if my theory of Owl being imprisioned in the mists (Jormag is already taking troops into the mist) is correct, specially since in F&F they suddenly added an Owl Shaman in the reconstruction of Cragstead (a mostly wolf devoted stead so it surprised me to find an Owl shaman) talking about his hope of making it come back if he spreads its wisdom it got me thinking if it was a sign of things to come.

That sounds more like wistful thinking, to me. Owl wouldn’t be trapped in the Mists, however, but in Jormag’s belly. And it’s possible Owl is still inside Jormag, slowly being devoured over the years.

In GW1, a scarab had devoured some spirits 200 years prior to the game. We free them in GW1 during the quest Family Soul – so two standard spirit eaten by a magical and old scarab queen takes over two centuries to digest. A Spirit of the Wild? May take longer.

But I bet Owl would be corrupted after 150 years in Jormag’s gut.

Tuomir.1830:

-snip-

Not gonna go quote individual points so…

1. Almost all lore on the druids come from out-of-universe sources: outpost descriptions. Or fro the druids themselves, of the Avatar of Dwayna. That’s infallable (as far as we’ve ever seen), first hand, and really knowledgable sources (respectively) there. I wouldn’t doubt them – especially not heavily.
2. Regarding Majesty’s Rest: the central crypt, where Rotscale was, is the royal crypt. As can be seen with the Primeval Kings, some royalty (especially those of Elonian origins, like Majesty’s Rest would be) have a thing for burying their dead way outside of their kingdom. National wise, Kryta didn’t stretch that far except for some outskirt housings or towns.
3. As to why the Scepter ended up there – I’d go first by drax’s guess of Glint moving it, since she seems to at the end of the campaign too – as she compiled the Flameseeker Prophecies and at the same time pulled puppetmaster (almost?) over the campaign. I wouldn’t, however, guess that it “returned to its original owner.” Two reasons:
   1. Kryta didn’t exist until 300 AE, but the gods’ intervention implies prior to 0 AE.
   2. Scepter of Orr implies that the nation that on was given to was Orr, not Kryta.
4. Your timeline arument has a hole. While the Six Gods left Tyria in 0 AE, they – or some – did return later for periodic visits.
   [quote]Karei was a powerful healer who lived seven hundred years ago. For most of his life, he tended a small village in northern Cantha, curing ills and setting broken bones, refusing pay and accepting only food and basic supplies from the community. One day a wealthy Canthan noble and his small entourage passed by Karei’s village and were attacked by bandits in the nearby woods. The noble suffered a grievous wound, and after killing the bandits, his guards brought him to Karei, who healed him easily. When the wealthy man attempted to pay him in gold, the Monk refused. Next the noble offered Karei employment on his lavish estate; again the Monk refused. Finally, the noble offered to give the Monk great powers that would make him a god among men, but Karei would not be moved. Smiling, the noble stood and let his cloak fall away, and as he did, he was transformed into a beautiful woman. The goddess Dwayna herself stood before Karei and placed a hand upon his head. “Thrice I have tempted you and thrice you have resisted. I choose you.” Called by his goddess, Karei could not refuse his new appointment as Master of the Kaziin Monastery, where he lived out his days training young Monks and healing any sick or broken who came his way. Upon his death, Dwayna herself inducted him into Tahnnakai.[/quote]http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Karei
5. Another failpoint with your timeline data is that magic existed prior to 1 BE, it’s just that it was highly limited. See the various Scriptures of the Gods, Ritualists, and the true history of the Bloodstone revealed in GW2 for this. Theory-wise, I suspect that magic is a constantly-created thing in the world, hence why the Elder Dragons can consume it all before slumbering multiple times – it will just grow back. With such an assumption in mind, the Bloodstone would contain all magic from one point in time, but magic would simultaneously slowly return.

-more in next post-

-continued from last post-

1. Third fallacy with the staves you’re making about their origin is that they’re made from modern history (read: human civilization timeframe). Gven how they control the metaphysical (Scepter of Orr – supposedly) and the physical (Staff of the Mists), they seem to me to be of either early human origins (Scepter of Orr sounds like a good Ritualist’s tool), or from before then: used by the mursaat (pros at the metaphysical magic) and another elder race. That’s all theorycrafting though, but the main point is that we have no clue of their origins – just their history as of being gifted to two great nations at some point in time, and created before 0 AE.
2. You’re wrong on the Margonites – there’s no known structures of the Margonites within the Desolation. In fact, the only known structures of them are their ships, turned into towers at Thirsty River. There is no temple of the Margonites that remain from 0 AE. None. You’re probably thinking of the Great Margonite Temple – however, this is a renovation job done during 1075 AE.
3. “So, the Staff of the Mists, staff used to control the physical world, was owned by an ancient Margonite King.” Just to iterate: not necessarily so, as you made a couple mistakes with your deduction to this. The Margonites knew where it was, but none of the so-called “Margonite Temples” were necessarily there since 0 AE. It is more likely to have been buried with the Primeval Kings, as you made the presumption that the corruption was during the great wars of 1 BE, and not after. Besides, if you were to be right about the Margonites having the Staff of the Mists at the time of turmoil, the king would have been buried underwater.
4. King Doric wasn’t the only king, actually. Mazdak was king of Kryta, the Primeval Kings were separate, and they certainly weren’t part of Cantha. Margonites seemed to have their own king at the time: Khimaar. So there was, technically, 4 kings at the time – at least – and one emperor of Cantha. King Doric was just the king of united Tyria. So he was likely a “Highking” (there is a place in Arah talking about Lowborn Kings, iirc) who ruled over the other kings. Alternatively, he was just the king of Orr and Ascalon, with a summer home in Kryta, but no more. Nice theory about him though. But again, nothing truly indicates that the poor use of the staves were during 1 BE.
5. I think Doric was buried at Doric’s Shrine, in Malchor’s Leap, given the skill point and PoI there (and Eye of Zhaitan, which I wouldn’t doubt to have been Doric himself), or alternatively in the casket skill point in the royal tombs, Cursed Shore – I doubt he was buried in the side tomb of unknown contents in Majesty’s Rest which your theorycrafting would have.

jheryn.8390:

draxynnic.3719:

jheryn.8390:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn.8390:

5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners

Wiped out when the first Orrian undead were taken care of.

This is probably the only one I don’t agree with. They may have been wiped out in Tyria, but they should still be crawling all over Orr. Orr, I am sure had horsemen, dogs, clerics, etc. Maybe the clerics and executioners could be now known as shamans/priests and abominations, but the horsemen and hell hounds should still be there.

One reasonably common theory is that the Vizier may have selectively grabbed what he thought would be the most powerful undead for his force – including the dragons, cavalry, and Orr’s standing army in general. This would also explain why Zhaitan’s army seems to have so little in the way of conventional soldiery (you also don’t see any archers in Zhaitan’s army but Khilbron’s was full of them, for instance).

Ok, I can buy this, but completely wiped out without running into ANY in Orr? I’m not quite buying that. The Vizier surely would have picked up one of the undead giants too would he not. I’m not complaining, it just seems to be a little inconsistent. I think maybe developers were a little more worried about they types of undead they needed in Orr rather than continuity with undead in GW1.

I’m with the theory that they were all taken out of Orr at the time, which seems to be the case. Because otherwise, we’d be seeing Bone Dragons too – but there’s a huge difference between the Bone Dragons (which lacked flesh more or less) and the dragon champions.

As to the giants: not all of the Risen in Orr are from Orr. Keep in mind that the Risen bring in shipments of corpses for corruption. And then there’s those like the corsairs who wandered into Orr after Khilbron was dead, taking refuge in the shattered islands.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

-snip-

Or maybe Joko ralied them before the awakening of Zaithan.
Orr is not that far from the desolace.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lokheit.7943:

Oh, I nearly forgot, I want to know if my theory of Owl being imprisioned in the mists (Jormag is already taking troops into the mist) is correct, specially since in F&F they suddenly added an Owl Shaman in the reconstruction of Cragstead (a mostly wolf devoted stead so it surprised me to find an Owl shaman) talking about his hope of making it come back if he spreads its wisdom it got me thinking if it was a sign of things to come.

That sounds more like wistful thinking, to me. Owl wouldn’t be trapped in the Mists, however, but in Jormag’s belly. And it’s possible Owl is still inside Jormag, slowly being devoured over the years.

In GW1, a scarab had devoured some spirits 200 years prior to the game. We free them in GW1 during the quest Family Soul – so two standard spirit eaten by a magical and old scarab queen takes over two centuries to digest. A Spirit of the Wild? May take longer.

But I bet Owl would be corrupted after 150 years in Jormag’s gut.

I know it’s wishful thinking, but my theory is that Jormag spit it and imprisioned him rather than digest it. I think there are hints here and there for a possible return, and seeing the Owl Shaman in Cragstead talking about that got me thinking again about it. Pure speculation, of course, but I have this feeling we will see him returning, maybe even in the future see an Eliten Racial Owl form.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

-snip-

If the calamities brought by the misuse of the twin staves would have happened any other time, wouldn’t it have made a mark in history? This is one of the key reasons I believe it was a part of the wars of 1 BE. And so, if the owners of the staves were struck down and buried with the staffs in 0 AE, unless the Staff of the Mists was owned by the Margonite king, the staff wouldn’t have ended up in Desolation. It wasn’t until 29 years later that the Primeval Kings expanded their realm there. And Margonites did build in Crystal Sea, see Temple of the Six Gods. By extension, it wouldn’t be unthinkable that they might have build royal tombs in a similar manner. Besides – who’s to say the Crystal Sea didn’t have any islands? If you look at Desolation, it’s full of high rock formations.

You have a good point about the creation of the staves, but it hardly has bearing on the actual theory. The quest dialogue implies that they weren’t passed on by their owners, instead having the whole incident in a single generation. They were given to “the great nations of the world”, and I’m going assume Cantha is not included, or there are more staffs with similar powers, given to Canthan emperor and the Primeval King of the time. Margonites were likely at the height of their pre-fall civilization right before the fall, so I’d call them a great nation. History of Tyria describes King Doric as “the leader of the united human tribes”, which frankly doesn’t leave space for more kingdoms on the continent at the time. Kryta wasn’t established until 300 AE by Elona, and became a kingdom 58 years later. So, Mazdak was likely chosen as a king for legitimacy reasons at that time (the talk about when" humanity was as young as the sylvari" being rather inaccurate) , as he, as all the royal lines in Tyria, was supposedly of Doric’s line. Tyrians love their Doric.

And, as I wrote before, having the incident with two kings, in two nations release terrors on their realm through misuse of powerful staves given to them happen at any other period than the great wars of BE 1 would have left a mark in history. This pinpoints the end of their use. The location of the Staff of the Mists, combined with the time of it’s burial, means only a Margonite King could have held it.

And about Majesty’s Rest – History of Tyria tells how humans “chased the druids from the jungle” within a century of the arrival of humans on continental Tyria. I’m going to build a bit of a bridge here, but that could mean human tribes pushing their way to the edge and into Maguuma, the area covering Majesty’s Rest. It wouldn’t be impossible that the ruler of said tribes, and their first king, would be buried there. I wouldn’t put too much weight on Doric’s Shrine, because he was a great human hero, first of Tyrian kings and the one who is thanked for ending the BE 1 wars. It would be natural for there to be a shrine to him, grave or not. Most public memorials don’t have bodies under them.

Finally, your argument about the later interventions of the human gods can be used to further my theory, as well – when Orr fell, and when Vizier Khilbron was defeated, the Scepter of Orr was rather mysteriously relocated, first time to Majesty’s Rest, second time yet unknown, but possibly there again. This could be by divine intervention. The first time, they were entombed after a major catastrophe involving them, the two following times, the Scepter of Orr disappeared after major magical incidents, one of them certainly involving the scepter, the other possibly.

The way I see it, it all falls into place.

Tuomir.1830:

4. Glints eggs. Did any of them grow up? Also, the oldest known example of a dragon minion laying eggs.

one did hatch, there was a competative mission in ‘Eye of the North’ to protect a hatchling…. then there’s Shiny, Gorens guard dragon who called him Mommy…. and kuunavang, the grumpy celestial power giving dragon
I wanna know – what happened to the ‘good’ dragons

Getefix.9150:

Tuomir.1830:

4. Glints eggs. Did any of them grow up? Also, the oldest known example of a dragon minion laying eggs.

one did hatch, there was a competative mission in ‘Eye of the North’ to protect a hatchling…. then there’s Shiny, Gorens guard dragon who called him Mommy…. and kuunavang, the grumpy celestial power giving dragon
I wanna know – what happened to the ‘good’ dragons

Well, Shiny and Kuunavang were saltspray dragons, with no known connection to Elder Dragons, unlike Glint. And that mission where you defend the baby dragon was pretty much what got me to thinking if any of them survived to this day.

I’m with jheryn in wanting to know what happened to the Tyrian creatures who are no longer in the game, and why some others look so very different. I understand that many have given up caring, but I’m still hopeful that some reason will eventually be provided other than aesthetic update.

I’d also like to know how intelligent some of the monsters/creatures are, particularly the karka, imps, steam creatures, riders, skale, and troll. All have indictations of being more than mere animals, but save some unique cases we don’t see them use language, nor any but the most rudimentary examples of culture. How much are they actually capable of? Do they qualify as races?

Lokheit.7943:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lokheit.7943:

Oh, I nearly forgot, I want to know if my theory of Owl being imprisioned in the mists (Jormag is already taking troops into the mist) is correct, specially since in F&F they suddenly added an Owl Shaman in the reconstruction of Cragstead (a mostly wolf devoted stead so it surprised me to find an Owl shaman) talking about his hope of making it come back if he spreads its wisdom it got me thinking if it was a sign of things to come.

That sounds more like wistful thinking, to me. Owl wouldn’t be trapped in the Mists, however, but in Jormag’s belly. And it’s possible Owl is still inside Jormag, slowly being devoured over the years.

In GW1, a scarab had devoured some spirits 200 years prior to the game. We free them in GW1 during the quest Family Soul – so two standard spirit eaten by a magical and old scarab queen takes over two centuries to digest. A Spirit of the Wild? May take longer.

But I bet Owl would be corrupted after 150 years in Jormag’s gut.

I know it’s wishful thinking, but my theory is that Jormag spit it and imprisioned him rather than digest it. I think there are hints here and there for a possible return, and seeing the Owl Shaman in Cragstead talking about that got me thinking again about it. Pure speculation, of course, but I have this feeling we will see him returning, maybe even in the future see an Eliten Racial Owl form.

you can summon an owl already, be gratefull for that. Half of the human gods just grant prayers.

Lokheit.7943:

I know it’s wishful thinking, but my theory is that Jormag spit it and imprisioned him rather than digest it. I think there are hints here and there for a possible return, and seeing the Owl Shaman in Cragstead talking about that got me thinking again about it. Pure speculation, of course, but I have this feeling we will see him returning, maybe even in the future see an Eliten Racial Owl form.

Elder Dragons devour magic.

Souls appear, to my observations, to be a form of energy. Magic is energy.

In other words, Owl is exactly the kind of supreme meal of an Elder Dragon. Just like the other Spirits of the Wild and the Six Gods would be. I cannot see at all Jormag spitting it out. It’s like being a person who absolutely loves seafood, yet spits out finely cooked and season lobster despite it having nothing wrong with it. And being hungry at the time, at that, given how Jormag ate Owl not long after waking (5 years, I think it was said, was the time the norn knew Jormag was coming, so it was about that long).

Also, Owl is a she.

Tuomir.1830:

If the calamities brought by the misuse of the twin staves would have happened any other time, wouldn’t it have made a mark in history?

Read the quest lines again. It merely says “horrors” – no description to it. There are dozens of unexplained historical events that could consistute as “horrors” (Scarab Plague, to name one tied to the Primeval Kings), and several undated events that held strong problems – like the supposed pursecution of druids, or why the Orrian-born Krytans disappeared from the face of history for the land to be resettled in 300 AE. There’s the beginnings of the human-centaur war left as a HUGE blank – 700 years worth, more or less. Then don’t forget that we have the off-and-on three decades long wars known as “The Guild Wars” with no date tied to the first whatsoever (just “after 0 AE”).

We have a lot of unexplained dated events, and a lot of undated historical events.

Tuomir.1830:

unless the Staff of the Mists was owned by the Margonite king, the staff wouldn’t have ended up in Desolation.

Doesn’t change the fact that this so-called tomb would be underwater, or on the edge of the water, if that king was buried in 0 AE.

Tuomir.1830:

And Margonites did build in Crystal Sea, see Temple of the Six Gods.

1) Not Margonite origin. Its origin is unknown and, imo, most likely Forgotten.

2) Shore of the Crystal Sea, but location unknown. The Desolation and the Crystal Desert were part of the sea, with supposedly some of the Desolation being the shore. It’s suspected that the temple of the Six Gods was at the Mouth of Torment, but fully unproven and, imo, unlikely since that’s where Abaddon was struck down (the suspicion comes from the two having similar sizes and circular shapes).

3) We know for a fact the Crystal Sea had islands (see the scriptures of Abaddon about Jadoth). However, where the Staff of the Mists was buried (which, oddly, I don’t recall a single structure but an Abaddon Shrine of more recent designs) was not on that high of a land. Also keep in mind that the reason the sea became a desert is because the ground was raised – i.e., it’s impossible to tell how high the elevation of different portions was, and it’s unlikely it was all evenly lifted (impossible, I’d say, to create the current effect at the borders).

-more in next post-

-from previous post-

Tuomir.1830:

They were given to “the great nations of the world”, and I’m going assume Cantha is not included, or there are more staffs with similar powers, given to Canthan emperor and the Primeval King of the time. Margonites were likely at the height of their pre-fall civilization right before the fall, so I’d call them a great nation. History of Tyria describes King Doric as “the leader of the united human tribes”, which frankly doesn’t leave space for more kingdoms on the continent at the time. Kryta wasn’t established until 300 AE by Elona, and became a kingdom 58 years later. So, Mazdak was likely chosen as a king for legitimacy reasons at that time (the talk about when" humanity was as young as the sylvari" being rather inaccurate) , as he, as all the royal lines in Tyria, was supposedly of Doric’s line. Tyrians love their Doric.

A few things:

1. The Margonites were never really called a large or powerful nation. They had a king – one we know of, Khimaar, who would likely be the one that was the king in 0 AE (if your theory is right, then his predecessor had the Staff of the Mists). However, I’d hardly call them one of “the great nations” – if there were only 2 gifts to great nations, one would suspect only 2 great nation. While I’d say Cantha is a great nation, its distance likely cut it from candidacy of the staves. Thus of the four nations (Kryta, Orr/Ascalon, Margonite, and Elona), it’d be Elona (Primeval Kings at the time) and Orr (King Doric) who’d get it.
2. Doric is outright and fully – from start to end – considered a benevolent ruler. He doesn’t seem like someone who was corrupted by power.
3. It’s said that the gods had to intervene. This screws up your DOric part of the theory, as your theory says he voluntarily gave it up. The two lines of thought clash – they wouldn’t have HAD to intervene and strike down the rulers if Doric volunteered to bringing an end to all this.
4. The Kryta we know was established in 300 AE. However, Mazdak was the first king of Kryta and from Orr. Furthermore, Orrian History Scrolls tell us that humans established Kryta during Doric’s reign. Lion’s Arch was also first established as King Doric’s summer home. This means that Kryta was established as a human nation twice.

Tuomir.1830:

And about Majesty’s Rest – History of Tyria tells how humans “chased the druids from the jungle” within a century of the arrival of humans on continental Tyria. I’m going to build a bit of a bridge here, but that could mean human tribes pushing their way to the edge and into Maguuma, the area covering Majesty’s Rest. It wouldn’t be impossible that the ruler of said tribes, and their first king, would be buried there.

I wouldn’t put too much weight on the History of Tyria, given its ahem history of being wrong. Based on my observations of Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen, and given the name “North Krytan Province” – the early Krytan settlements didn’t stretch very far. Their first king was buried on northern Gendarran, and Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen are riddled with ruins of both Krytan and Orrian ties (sometimes right adjacent to each other). This shows to me that the earliest Krytan kingdom reached from Gendarran Fields (known as North Krytan Province in GW1) all the way south to Sparkfly Fen. We also know that in 300 AE, Kryta’s spread (colonization by Elona) saw the centaurs pushed out – this gives a heavy implication that the centaurs made their home in modern Harathi Hinterlands, Kessex Hills, and Queensdale – all three of which having been under Krytan territory no later than roughly 800 AE.

I don’t think that the humans pushed that far west for burying their dead, when Kryta’s first king who was alive in the -1st century Mazdak was buried in Gendarran Fields. And to note again: Majesty’s Rest’s central tomb is the one where Krytan royalty is buried. The side crypt structure, where the Scepter of Orr was taken from, holds no recognition.

Tuomir.1830:

Well, Shiny and Kuunavang were saltspray dragons, with no known connection to Elder Dragons, unlike Glint.

Not particularly true. There are indications from interviews that Kuunavang is also a dragon champion.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I’d also like to know how intelligent some of the monsters/creatures are, particularly the karka, imps, steam creatures, riders, skale, and troll.

Well, the karka are outright said to be very intelligent. And steam creatures have enough intelligence to speak, but they seem to be on par to golems. Steam creatures don’t count as a race, as they’re basically cyborgs created by a possible future version of asura player characters who did Infinity Ball storyline.

I must have missed that line about the karka. What exactly is said there?

I suppose I ought to have clarified, but I’m not 100% convinced the Lornar’s Pass steam creatures share their origin with the Infinity Ball storyline ones. I freely grant that it is the most likely explanation, but I feel like that is due more to it being the only provided possibility rather than any strengths of the argument itself. I would not be surprised if we learn in the future that the LP steam creatures are of a more local origin.

Really, it was just that they’re smart – not your standard wildlife. I don’t really remember all of it, but what I know for certain was that they were smart enough to avoid approaching Orr (most wildlife doesn’t seem capable of differentiating dragon corruption as seen in Sparkfly Fen). I think it was mentioned they have a social structure, but I am unsure on this.

The “LP steam creatures” as you call them come from steam portals – these portals share the same model and are unique unto the final Infinity Ball’s usage, if memory serves me correct. The Steam creatures hold no other known origin, and they’re definitely not a natural occurrence. Furthermore, the “future asura PC” held the intention of conquering the past – I doubt he would only send his forces to one place in the past after he supposedly conquered all of Tyria with those steam creatures.

Certainly, its possible that they hold differing origins – even if it’s simply “another possible future that also had steam creatures.” But all things point to it being simply that: from one of the possible futures, created by a crazed asuran overlord that was just too epic to contain himself.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tuomir.1830:

If the calamities brought by the misuse of the twin staves would have happened any other time, wouldn’t it have made a mark in history?

Read the quest lines again. It merely says “horrors” – no description to it. There are dozens of unexplained historical events that could consistute as “horrors” (Scarab Plague, to name one tied to the Primeval Kings), and several undated events that held strong problems – like the supposed pursecution of druids, or why the Orrian-born Krytans disappeared from the face of history for the land to be resettled in 300 AE. There’s the beginnings of the human-centaur war left as a HUGE blank – 700 years worth, more or less. Then don’t forget that we have the off-and-on three decades long wars known as “The Guild Wars” with no date tied to the first whatsoever (just “after 0 AE”).

We have a lot of unexplained dated events, and a lot of undated historical events.

However, these events had to overlap, happening in both Elona and Tyria at the same or nearly the same time, and they had to be major enough to warrant the intervention of the gods. Looking at the timeline, only AE 0 matches. Of course, as you said, undated events are still a possibility.

unless the Staff of the Mists was owned by the Margonite king, the staff wouldn’t have ended up in Desolation.

Doesn’t change the fact that this so-called tomb would be underwater, or on the edge of the water, if that king was buried in 0 AE.

And Margonites did build in Crystal Sea, see Temple of the Six Gods.

1) Not Margonite origin. Its origin is unknown and, imo, most likely Forgotten.

2) Shore of the Crystal Sea, but location unknown. The Desolation and the Crystal Desert were part of the sea, with supposedly some of the Desolation being the shore. It’s suspected that the temple of the Six Gods was at the Mouth of Torment, but fully unproven and, imo, unlikely since that’s where Abaddon was struck down (the suspicion comes from the two having similar sizes and circular shapes).

3) We know for a fact the Crystal Sea had islands (see the scriptures of Abaddon about Jadoth). However, where the Staff of the Mists was buried (which, oddly, I don’t recall a single structure but an Abaddon Shrine of more recent designs) was not on that high of a land. Also keep in mind that the reason the sea became a desert is because the ground was raised – i.e., it’s impossible to tell how high the elevation of different portions was, and it’s unlikely it was all evenly lifted (impossible, I’d say, to create the current effect at the borders).

So in effect, we don’t know the original elevation of the burial site of the staff, which may well have been on dry ground.

They were given to “the great nations of the world”, and I’m going assume Cantha is not included, or there are more staffs with similar powers, given to Canthan emperor and the Primeval King of the time. Margonites were likely at the height of their pre-fall civilization right before the fall, so I’d call them a great nation. History of Tyria describes King Doric as “the leader of the united human tribes”, which frankly doesn’t leave space for more kingdoms on the continent at the time. Kryta wasn’t established until 300 AE by Elona, and became a kingdom 58 years later. So, Mazdak was likely chosen as a king for legitimacy reasons at that time (the talk about when" humanity was as young as the sylvari" being rather inaccurate) , as he, as all the royal lines in Tyria, was supposedly of Doric’s line. Tyrians love their Doric.

A few things:

1. The Margonites were never really called a large or powerful nation. They had a king – one we know of, Khimaar, who would likely be the one that was the king in 0 AE (if your theory is right, then his predecessor had the Staff of the Mists). However, I’d hardly call them one of “the great nations” – if there were only 2 gifts to great nations, one would suspect only 2 great nation. While I’d say Cantha is a great nation, its distance likely cut it from candidacy of the staves. Thus of the four nations (Kryta, Orr/Ascalon, Margonite, and Elona), it’d be Elona (Primeval Kings at the time) and Orr (King Doric) who’d get it.

Margonites ruled the Unending Ocean. I’d say that constitutes for a great nation. Nothing suggests early Kryta wasn’t part of Doric’s kingdom – Orrian History Scrolls tell “His kingdom encompassed the lands we now know as Orr, Ascalon and Kryta.”, and the way how modern Krytan royalty trace their line back to him tells how they consider themselves to be the heirs to his kingdom, if only a part of it.

-Will continue in next post-

-continuation from my last post-

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Doric is outright and fully – from start to end – considered a benevolent ruler. He doesn’t seem like someone who was corrupted by power.

Corrupted by power? No. Protect his people with a powerful artifact entrusted to him for that very purpose? Yes. After magic was given out to use freely, Tyria was engulfed in war, so a plenty of chance for him to make a mistake when using the staff.

1. It’s said that the gods had to intervene. This screws up your Doric part of the theory, as your theory says he voluntarily gave it up. The two lines of thought clash – they wouldn’t have HAD to intervene and strike down the rulers if Doric volunteered to bringing an end to all this.

Yes, this is a conflicting part – yet, it can be explained in a few ways. One would be that human history telling didn’t want to see their greatest hero being struck down by their gods, so a tale of sacrifice was made. Another would be that the undoing of the horrors unleashed required the death of the one responsible for it, so Doric offered himself to the gods.

1. The Kryta we know was established in 300 AE. However, Mazdak was the first king of Kryta and from Orr. Furthermore, Orrian History Scrolls tell us that humans established Kryta during Doric’s reign. Lion’s Arch was also first established as King Doric’s summer home. This means that Kryta was established as a human nation twice.

Yes, Mazdak conquered and ruled Kryta, now that I dug deeper, but in king Doric’s name, so to speak. So, I was wrong earlier when saying Mazdak was the first king of the modern Kryta – seems like he was the first king of the early Kryta, but still under Doric’s rule.

And about Majesty’s Rest – History of Tyria tells how humans “chased the druids from the jungle” within a century of the arrival of humans on continental Tyria. I’m going to build a bit of a bridge here, but that could mean human tribes pushing their way to the edge and into Maguuma, the area covering Majesty’s Rest. It wouldn’t be impossible that the ruler of said tribes, and their first king, would be buried there.

I wouldn’t put too much weight on the History of Tyria, given its ahem history of being wrong. Based on my observations of Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen, and given the name “North Krytan Province” – the early Krytan settlements didn’t stretch very far. Their first king was buried on northern Gendarran, and Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen are riddled with ruins of both Krytan and Orrian ties (sometimes right adjacent to each other). This shows to me that the earliest Krytan kingdom reached from Gendarran Fields (known as North Krytan Province in GW1) all the way south to Sparkfly Fen. We also know that in 300 AE, Kryta’s spread (colonization by Elona) saw the centaurs pushed out – this gives a heavy implication that the centaurs made their home in modern Harathi Hinterlands, Kessex Hills, and Queensdale – all three of which having been under Krytan territory no later than roughly 800 AE.

I don’t think that the humans pushed that far west for burying their dead, when Kryta’s first king who was alive in the -1st century Mazdak was buried in Gendarran Fields. And to note again: Majesty’s Rest’s central tomb is the one where Krytan royalty is buried. The side crypt structure, where the Scepter of Orr was taken from, holds no recognition.

Yes, this is the oddest, yet perhaps the most crucial point of the puzzle, and the starting point of the theory – why was the Scepter of Orr found there? Mazdak was the first king of Kryta, so perhaps he wanted to be buried near his land? I do not know. But crypt being built on older crypts and burial sited isn’t so uncommon – it could be that later Krytan royalty sought to be buried near the legendary king Doric. For what reason Doric was buried there, I can’t say, but him being there would explain why the Scepter was there.

Konig, would that be from Medina’s comment on the no risen karka thread?

As far as the steam creatures go, the only reason I suspect the two groups might be unrelated is that in the Infinity Ball storyline, the only reason the alternate you had an opportunity to invade was because you kept opening portals for them- that is to say, we have no reason to believe that those steam creatures were capable of accessing this world without our intervention. For a while I believed that they discovered inter-dimensional portals for themselves sometime afterwards, but now I’m not so sure.

As a couple of comments:

First, I sincerely doubt that Doric is the Eye of Zhaitan in King’s Passage. He’s just too important a historical figure to have been relegated to be just another Eye, and Reza is supposed to be the most powerful of the Orrian royalty that were twisted into Eyes (never mind that the Sovereign Eye can be soloed while most Eyes encountered in the open world can’t). My gut feeling is that either we haven’t encountered Doric yet, or one way or another he’s out of Zhaitan’s reach.

Second, there definitely is something funny going on with the giants – one of the personal story steps has them simply appearing at the Altar of Tempests. So they could be being harvested from elsewhere… although nowhere else has a concentration of giants that even comes close to Orr’s. It might simply be a case that the giants were too big for the Vizier to animate (they do seem larger than the bone dragons, and wanting to have dragons but not being able to animate a whole one might explain why the bone dragons we see don’t have hindquarters…), but Zhaitan has no such handicap.

Tuomir.1830:

However, these events had to overlap, happening in both Elona and Tyria at the same or nearly the same time, and they had to be major enough to warrant the intervention of the gods. Looking at the timeline, only AE 0 matches. Of course, as you said, undated events are still a possibility.

Under the large presumption that these “horrors” were recorded in the timeline, you’d be correct that there’s no recorded event that is related to the same timeframe, except The First Guild War and the Scarab Plague, though this is only a possible comparison. Or alternatively, the Guild Wars and the Great Corsair Wars.

However, the actions of leaders in Tyria and Elona are heavily overlooked compared to Cantha – we really only got GW1 leaders, Doric, and Thorn, so using the timeline isn’t very reliable when looking for leaders who did cruel things. And we only know of so many Canthan leaders (which still isn’t that many) thanks to the uniquely written An Empire Divided lore document provided in the Factions Prima Guide.

So your argument isn’t very sound, truth be told, simply because there’s too many “unknowns.” Of what we know, sure, but we only know roughly 5% of the royalty from 205 BE to 1075 AE. And even then, we have absolutely no indication what the wars caused in 1 BE were, who they were between, or how devastating they were. We have indications that it was possibly civil wars, we have indications that it was between human nations, and we have indications that it was between humans and non-humans. It likely was all of the above, but I fail to see how the power of magical staves would be more corruptive than the ultimate magical power in of itself. In fact, given the state of magic in 1 BE, I’d say that is the time when it is LEAST likely for the staves to have led two kings into going mad with power, simply because they’d have that much power with or without.

If we look at notorious leaders, I can name three off of the top of my head: King Thorn of Kryta, Prince Alhazred of Orr, and King Jahnus of Elona. Though obviously the first and last didn’t live in the same timeframe (though Thorn and Joko did, and Joko was an “up and coming prince” though I’d hardly say from a great nation given that was the Shattered Dynasty Era). The point I’m making in naming these three is: we have no indication of either prior to meeting the NPC itself, and even then we have no indication if they’re the sole individuals like them, let alone when they lived.

Tuomir.1830:

So in effect, we don’t know the original elevation of the burial site of the staff, which may well have been on dry ground.

You’re making two shots in the dark. First with presuming “because it’s not mentioned on the timeline we have, it didn’t happen” and second with presuming “it could have been on an island in the middle of an inland sea.” Both hold no standings of support, and you’re having as much foundation for your theory as one has for claiming sylvari are Elder Dragons, or the Six Gods were born directly from the Mists at the dawn of time.

-more in next post; Anet, please lengthen the 5001 limit-

-continued from previous post-

Tuomir.1830:

Margonites ruled the Unending Ocean. I’d say that constitutes for a great nation. Nothing suggests early Kryta wasn’t part of Doric’s kingdom – Orrian History Scrolls tell “His kingdom encompassed the lands we now know as Orr, Ascalon and Kryta.”, and the way how modern Krytan royalty trace their line back to him tells how they consider themselves to be the heirs to his kingdom, if only a part of it.

No, they traversed the Unending Ocean. They didn’t rule it. The only land they’re known to have had is the Marga Coast. But that’s in Elona. They’re sea-farers, a group of united tribes under a king, and considered a single culture. But they didn’t lay claim to anything we know. The Unending Ocean is too wide, too deep, and too full of other creatures to really lay claim.

As to Kryta not being Doric’s – it’s likely that, as I said, Doric was a “king of kings” – or a Highborn King, or a High King. Every fantasy story revolving them holds a different title for it, but the same concept. A king that ruled above other kings. Thing is, we KNOW for a fact that Mazdak was the first King of Kryta. We know for a fact that he ruled when humanity was still young on the continent – this places him as ruling prior to 300 AE, and he came from Orr not Elona. So unless Mazdak was Doric’s son (which is important enough to be mentioned), it’s unlikely that he was of Doric’s lineage.

Modern Krytan royalty tracing lineage back to Doric says little to your argument. Somewhere from 300 AE to modern day, a Krytan king or queen likely married an Orrian or Ascalonian noble who was able to trace his or her lineage to Doric. It’s not uncommon. Furthermore, we’ve not once seen it said that the Thorn family were related to King Doric.

Tuomir.1830:

Corrupted by power? No. Protect his people with a powerful artifact entrusted to him for that very purpose? Yes. After magic was given out to use freely, Tyria was engulfed in war, so a plenty of chance for him to make a mistake when using the staff.

Right here, you state that your theory is wrong. It is outright stated that BOTH kings went mad with power and they caused those “horrors” – that’s why they were struck down by the gods themselves. If Doric didn’t go mad with power, then he’s not the king talked about. If he’s not the king talked about, then the staves weren’t given to an Orrian king during his reign.

Tuomir.1830:

Yes, this is a conflicting part – yet, it can be explained in a few ways. One would be that human history telling didn’t want to see their greatest hero being struck down by their gods, so a tale of sacrifice was made. Another would be that the undoing of the horrors unleashed required the death of the one responsible for it, so Doric offered himself to the gods.

You should stop stretching, you might pull something.

Tuomir.1830:

Yes, this is the oddest, yet perhaps the most crucial point of the puzzle, and the starting point of the theory – why was the Scepter of Orr found there? Mazdak was the first king of Kryta, so perhaps he wanted to be buried near his land? I do not know. But crypt being built on older crypts and burial sited isn’t so uncommon – it could be that later Krytan royalty sought to be buried near the legendary king Doric. For what reason Doric was buried there, I can’t say, but him being there would explain why the Scepter was there.

Except that the Scepter of Orr was not in the crypt of the king it was initially buried with. Why it’s there is a complete mystery and you’re stretching majorly to explain it as Doric’s tomb when you have no reason to.

Edit: One thing I’ve been forgetting, is that you’re also making a different huge presumption which I’ve failed to bring up as a counter-argument before. You’re presuming that the “great nations” were human nations. So not only do we have no indication of time for these leaders, but we don’t know what kind of “rulers” they were (the only term used to describe the wielders is “rulers”), and we don’t even know what race said rulers were.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Konig, would that be from Medina’s comment on the no risen karka thread?

That was one of two places. The avoiding Orr part, but iirc, there was mention of a social structure elsewhere.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

we have no reason to believe that those steam creatures were capable of accessing this world without our intervention.

The Mecha Steamportal or w/e it’s called – the PoI – is a permanent Steam Portal opened to let the steam creatures through. All that was needed was to get enough through to build that, then bam, they can open the portals themselves.

Just re-read the Infinity Ball dialogue, and I withdraw my theory. The Grand High Sovereign seems to possess some familiarity with our reality, which would be unlikely had their only experience been the two experiments from that storyline.

The Grand high Sovereign is…

.

The particular quote was "In your world, this technology hasn’t even been invented yet! " That isn’t something one can just immediately tell the first time they step into an alternate reality. Obviously, this confrontation probably didn’t happen in the alternate timeline, so the inhabitants have no yardstick for measuring where or when they now are.
EDIT: Unless if the same thing did happen in the other reality… at which point we’d likely have a nigh-infinite regress on our hands, but still, an interesting thought.

There is a simple explanation, actually:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As to Kryta not being Doric’s – it’s likely that, as I said, Doric was a “king of kings” – or a Highborn King, or a High King. Every fantasy story revolving them holds a different title for it, but the same concept. A king that ruled above other kings. Thing is, we KNOW for a fact that Mazdak was the first King of Kryta. We know for a fact that he ruled when humanity was still young on the continent – this places him as ruling prior to 300 AE, and he came from Orr not Elona. So unless Mazdak was Doric’s son (which is important enough to be mentioned), it’s unlikely that he was of Doric’s lineage.

Regardless of Mazdak’s lineage, you, too, agree that Doric was considered the king of Tyrian humans at the time, is what I’m reading.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tuomir.1830:

Corrupted by power? No. Protect his people with a powerful artifact entrusted to him for that very purpose? Yes. After magic was given out to use freely, Tyria was engulfed in war, so a plenty of chance for him to make a mistake when using the staff.

Right here, you state that your theory is wrong. It is outright stated that BOTH kings went mad with power and they caused those “horrors” – that’s why they were struck down by the gods themselves. If Doric didn’t go mad with power, then he’s not the king talked about. If he’s not the king talked about, then the staves weren’t given to an Orrian king during his reign.

I don’t see how I stated my theory is wrong – the quest dialogue states that both were corrupted and released horrors to their lands, not that they went power mad. You can assume the case, but it doesn’t make it a necessarily true, since there’s more than one way of being corrupt, especially when magic is involved. The way I see the events having played out, Doric would have used the staff’s power to protect his kingdom, relying increasingly on it and unwittingly releasing the mentioned horrors. That could be seen as corruption, especially since the one telling us about them is found in Desolation, and probably didn’t witness the Tyrian side of the events.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tuomir.1830:

Yes, this is a conflicting part – yet, it can be explained in a few ways. One would be that human history telling didn’t want to see their greatest hero being struck down by their gods, so a tale of sacrifice was made. Another would be that the undoing of the horrors unleashed required the death of the one responsible for it, so Doric offered himself to the gods.

You should stop stretching, you might pull something.

A bridge built on flat ground serves little purpose. I stretch just as much as I need to in order to cover the ground between my points. It doesn’t take away from the value of the points the connections are based on.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tuomir.1830:

Yes, this is the oddest, yet perhaps the most crucial point of the puzzle, and the starting point of the theory – why was the Scepter of Orr found there? Mazdak was the first king of Kryta, so perhaps he wanted to be buried near his land? I do not know. But crypt being built on older crypts and burial sited isn’t so uncommon – it could be that later Krytan royalty sought to be buried near the legendary king Doric. For what reason Doric was buried there, I can’t say, but him being there would explain why the Scepter was there.

Except that the Scepter of Orr was not in the crypt of the king it was initially buried with. Why it’s there is a complete mystery and you’re stretching majorly to explain it as Doric’s tomb when you have no reason to.

Except we don’t know whose crypt it was that the Scepter was found in. And as such, is could be practically anyone who isn’t known to be buried elsewhere.

Edit: One thing I’ve been forgetting, is that you’re also making a different huge presumption which I’ve failed to bring up as a counter-argument before. You’re presuming that the “great nations” were human nations. So not only do we have no indication of time for these leaders, but we don’t know what kind of “rulers” they were (the only term used to describe the wielders is “rulers”), and we don’t even know what race said rulers were.

This is true, however, can you blame me for not bringing up a train of thought that neither has any kind of backing to it, nor supports my theory? I did consider it, but deemed it unnecessary to include.

But, by now you’ve succeeded in proving the fallacies of my theory, yet not proven it impossible. The connections are still plausible, they just aren’t the only possible connections (which, admittedly, formed a large part of my theory). I don’t think i have any more points to add to this. This has been enjoyable.