Guild Wars 2

Edit: I’m editing this post to clarify some things.

When LW season 2 episode 5 was released, the map of the planet Tyria was shown to us as a part of the carpet in Durmand Priory’s secret library. There was an area called “The Wetlands” west of Tyria. I happened to stumble upon a book about the Elder Dragons in DR’s Durmand Hall, saying that “Primordus rules over fire. As of this writing, his minions, known as destroyers, plague the wetlands in the southwest of Tyria”. This “wetlands” is not directly southwest of the continent Tyria, but there is a major city in the southern parts of The Wetlands, marked in the map with LA, Kaineng, Kamadan, The Battle Islands and some other major city. Of course, this wetlands could refer to Tarnished Coast, but apart from some story missions and the one hive in Riven Earth in GW, they weren’t really active in there. And in GW2, pretty much the only place you can find destroyers is in a small cave as a part of an event in Metrica Province.

Wikipedia describes wetlands as such: A wetland is a land area that is saturated with water, either permanently or seasonally, such that it takes on the characteristics of a distinct ecosystem. The primary factor that distinguishes wetlands from other land forms or water bodies is the characteristic vegetation of aquatic plants, adapted to the unique hydric soil. Wetlands are also considered the most biologically diverse of all ecosystems, serving as home to a wide range of plant and animal life. Wetlands occur naturally on every continent except Antarctica. Now, this doesn’t really match how Maguuma Jungle is portrayed in the game. Of course, there are marshes, swamps and fens (or, wetlands) within the Maguuma Jungle, but they are mainly just sub-ecosystems within the jungle ecosystem.

Also, Aaron Ansari made a valid point further down in the discussion about the asuran gates. Asuras had built their gates in many different places, even into some remote and far-flung places away from the Tarnished Coast, like in the Woodland Cascades and in the Far Shiverpeaks. Nothing prevents the possibility that they had built gates outside of Tyria, as Asuras lived and moved underground, so they could have just went under the sea to The Wetlands. The destroyers were seen utilizing these gates in the original Guild Wars to move around.

So, could this mean we’ll get to explore a whole new continent in the future?

I wouldn’t count on it. I love Anet but I’m not optimistic about our chances of going to other continents ever during GW2’s lifecylce. I think all future content will take place on the continent of Tyria. The best we can probably hope for is for us to go somewhat past the borders of the current world map.

As for Primordus and his destroyers specifically. We know Primordus is moving around underground so he can show up everywhere. His destroyers also get around, there are destroyers in Kryta, the Shiverpeaks and the Maguuma Jungle. We’ve also heard that the Tengu in the Dominion of Winds are being bothered by destroyers. So there is enough reason for us to just face Primordus and his minions in Tyria (or under Tyria).

Destroyers were active in pretty much every map of the Asura-populated areas, short of Rata Sum itself, whether it was primary quest events or map-specific quests.
I also find it unlikely, that, despite losing contact with Cantha and Elona which are far closer, the Priory somehow maintains contact with that further continent enough to know they have Destroyer issues.
Short of MAYBE the DSD, all the dragons and their respective minions are centered on continental Tyria. And I suspect we will even see the DSD focusing on this continent, eventually.

As I said on the Reddit thread of the same topic, the book refers to the invasion by the Destroyer of Life seen during Edge of Destiny.

The book also says “the wetlands” not “The Wetlands”. Proper versus non-proper noun. The name of the place the destroyers were showing up was not called The Wetlands. Their geography is just of wetlands. Which is Alcazia Tangle.

Edit: also, given how they decided to squeeze Mordremoth in the map rather than extend it, that A net will be keeping us in continental Tyria for as long as possible.

Edit2: Furthermore, the book was written after Kralkatorrik rose. Tyria has had no external contact for a century before the book was written. It is impossible for the writer to know what is happening in the largely unknown Sunrise Crest.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As I said on the Reddit thread of the same topic, the book refers to the invasion by the Destroyer of Life seen during Edge of Destiny.

The book also says “the wetlands” not “The Wetlands”. Proper versus non-proper noun. The name of the place the destroyers were showing up was not called The Wetlands. Their geography is just of wetlands. Which is Alcazia Tangle.

Edit: also, given how they decided to squeeze Mordremoth in the map rather than extend it, that A net will be keeping us in continental Tyria for as long as possible.

Edit2: Furthermore, the book was written after Kralkatorrik rose. Tyria has had no external contact for a century before the book was written. It is impossible for the writer to know what is happening in the largely unknown Sunrise Crest.

I’ll post the same thing that I posted on reddit here too:

I haven’t read the books so I didn’t know that. But remember that the Asuras were driven from their underground cities by the destroyers, but apart from some story missions (like the one you mentioned), they didn’t appear on the surface at all.

And regarding the wetlands, there was a river running through Alcazia Tangle, but apart from it that area wasn’t very swampy, cf. it to Arbor bay were the Pale Tree resides.

Edit 1: If the Order of Whispers still maintains connections to Elona in GW2, why not to other areas? It’s completely possible that the book was written by a member of the Order of Whispers.

Odeboy.1243:

I haven’t read the books so I didn’t know that. But remember that the Asuras were driven from their underground cities by the destroyers, but apart from some story missions (like the one you mentioned), they didn’t appear on the surface at all.

They are on the surface at the hive which is destroyed in the G.O.L.E.M. mission until you complete that mission. They had definitely breached the surface – and had done so across Tyria.

Odeboy.1243:

And regarding the wetlands, there was a river running through Alcazia Tangle, but apart from it that area wasn’t very swampy, cf. it to Arbor bay were the Pale Tree resides.

Magus Stones then, which is still near Rata Sum, which is what the Destroyer of Life was assaulting. Still, it’s clearly referencing the Destroyer of Life, as it is written in the timeframe of Edge of Destiny.

Odeboy.1243:

Edit 1: If the Order of Whispers still maintains connections to Elona in GW2, why not to other areas? It’s completely possible that the book was written by a member of the Order of Whispers.

The Order of Whispers didn’t make that book, the Durmand Priory did, and they don’t have contact with other lands

And if the person who wrote it was from both, then the person is giving away that they’re a spy within the Durmand Priory working for the Order of Whispers – a huge no, no for a spy organization.

And gain there’s the capitalization – “the wetlands” not “The Wetlands”. Also, pay attention to syntax. The line is: “As of this writing, his minions, known as destroyers, plague the wetlands in the southwest of Tyria.” “in the southwest of Tyria” aka “in southwestern Tyria” – that’s the Tarnished Coast.

It explicitly states that the destroyers are in Tyria, not outside of Tyria.

@Konig Des Todes (This sea of quotes is impossible to manage)

I have played the original GW, believe it or not. Saying that the destroyers have breached only at one place (G.O.L.E.M site) and claiming that the whole area is overrun with them is like saying that Lornar’s Pass in GW2 is full of destroyers simply because one heart in there involves destroyers breaching to the surface.

Magus Stones is pretty much the the whole area where Rata Sum now resides, so by that logic Primordus and destroyers are directly below Rata Sum. Destroyers show a hive mind like connection, where a strong destroyer controls the lesser ones (like the last boss of EotN story line). So, if the Destiny’s Edge killed the Destroyer of Life, would it not be rational to assume that the remaining destroyers would have become mindless, incapable of systematic destruction? And looking at Riven Earth, yes, there’s the destroyer hive in there, the one from the G.O.L.E.M mission, but it’s simply a point where they have breached to the surface, not spread out to the surrounding area.

Nothing claims that the Durmand Priory wrote that book. It’s located in a library in DR that is simply run by Durmand Priory. Besides, Durmand Priory collects books about, well, anything from anyone. The main library includes lots of books, and not all of them are written by the Durmand Priory.

Wetlands is, in general, a wet place, as the name tells. Tarnished coast apart from Arbor Bay is not a swampy, wet place. It’s a jungle. And besides, what could possibly deny that the destroyers (or other dragon minions) don’t exist outside of Tyria? They are not limited by mountains or seas.

Ignoring the rest which is ultimately irrelevant (though I replied to such on reddit):

Odeboy.1243:

Wetlands is, in general, a wet place, as the name tells. Tarnished coast apart from Arbor Bay is not a swampy, wet place. It’s a jungle. And besides, what could possibly deny that the destroyers (or other dragon minions) don’t exist outside of Tyria? They are not limited by mountains or seas.

So you’re going to argue that a landscape we have no indication of how it looks now – due to not seeing it in GW2 – cannot be a wetlands, despite 250 years passing and a tsunami passing through it, because it wasn’t such in GW1, 250 years ago?

I never said destroyers cannot be outside Tyria. But the wording explicitly states “the wetlands” not “The Wetlands” and it explicitly states “in southwest of Tyria” aka “in southwestern Tyria” aka within the Tyrian continent.

Your argument is stuck on the premise of how the Tarnished Coast looked in GW1, yet the very book – the foundation of your argument – outright states that it is of modern writing, around GW2’s time, and we are discussing places we cannot see in GW2.

I’m copying this directly from reddit.

Is this matter really that important to you? You have gone to a tremendous effort to prove your arguments correct. And starting to patronize me simply because we don’t see eye to eye…

When we talk about explorable areas in Tarnished Coast in GW, the only place you can find destroyers is the hive in Riven Earth. That means all the story missions that involve destroyers were there temporarily for a short duration, before being culled down. The fact that you emphasize on telling me that the destroyers have breached on multiple locations “They had definitely breached the surface – and had done so across Tyria.” can be interpreted as “overrun”.

“— however, since the book says as of this writing, meaning “presently” and not “in the past, 250 years ago”. And with the mention of Kralkatorrik it could be no more than 5 years old, and we know that the destroyers were heavily active 5 year ago. You presume that the location looks today exactly as it did 250 years ago, when a tsunami had already covered the area."

Then let’s look at the Tarnished Coast today, in GW2. Again, it’s not a very swampy place, but you presume that it was so, 5 years ago. It has been over 100 years since Zhaitan rose and caused the tsunami. You have emphasized the fact that the Destroyer of Life was in the Magus Stones. The last time I checked, it was mostly mountains with a river passing throught it. If the area near Rata Sum, the Metrica Province, The Grove and Caledon Forest don’t look like swamps, but jungles, how can you argue that the small area between them is a swamp, especially considering that it was not so in GW, even though the very same tsunami also hit those areas. Again, in GW2, it’s called “Maguuma Jungle” for a reason, not “Maguuma Wetlands”. Magus Stones, the map as a whole, is the area that today, in GW2, makes up the map of Rata Sum with all the labs, docks, dams etc. The destroyers closest to Rata Sum are found in a small cave in Metrica Province, where they spawn as a part of an event. Besides that, you can’t find destroyers anywhere near the Asuran capital in the game (GW2).

Then, about the Order of Whispers. Another post here mentioned Dorn Velasquez, who has a spanish-sounding name. It doesn’t sound like a Krytan name, Elonian name, Canthan name, Ascalonian name nor even an Orrian name. Maybe, Dorn is from The Wetlands, and as such has imformation regarding the place. He is even reluctant to talk about his past.

“You also completely ignore my last statement, that the wording explicitly states that the destroyers talked about are within Tyria, and as such cannot be in another continent across a vast sea (which is no doubt hindered by the DSD!)”

Tyria is the name of the planet and the continent, so nothing still denies the possibility of them existing outside of the continent Tyria. You sound like a guy who knows his lore, so you of all should have known that. And why would the DSD hinder the destroyers? You too ignored my last part of my post. Destroyers can move underground, so DSD means nothing to them. They simply move under the sea.

As geographical exploration fan I would be happy if it happened. But being realistic it will be extremely difficult to add a new continent and fill them with areas without losing quality of map design, and im not favor of loss of quality.

No new continents until the current map is done. Then, I want to go east or north far more interesting that elona or canthi (ok I admit interest in echovald) would be forsaken cliffs, thunder cove, Olympus, foundry, frozen gulley, fjord, and not real – that direction looks the best to me

It’s a fascinating map though, seeing how far Elona is from the part of Tyria we know and also how big continental Tyria is.
I do find it odd the Dragons, so fateful as they seem to be to the balance of the World, are so confined to such a small area of the World. Looking at the map in that picture conjures up such possibilties of imagination, it’s just a shame we’ll probably never explore most of them.

Odeboy.1243:

*Then let’s look at the Tarnished Coast today, in GW2. Again, it’s not a very swampy place, but you presume that it was so, 5 years ago.

Actually, there are plenty of swamplands in the area. The Grove was swampland in Guild Wars 1’s time, and the ground level is certainly still wetland albeit with cleaner water than normally associated with swamps. You have genuine swamps in Caledon (Wychmire), Metrica (Michoan, Cuatl) and Brisban (Toxal), as well as patches in the HoT maps (and the closer you get to Dragon’s Stand, the more they’ve been reshaped by Mordremoth – we can’t really say what Dragon’s Stand in particular was like ten years ago). Of course, none of those are infested by destroyers.

Most significantly, the biggest patch of land in the region that we can’t visit at all in GW2 is that section sandwiched between Brisban, Rata Sum, Metrica Province, and Tangled Depths. However, we were able to visit that region in GW1, being the region just south of the Henge of Denravi. The round, brown mountain in the northwest of that region is the location of the original Dry Top map – that swathe of blue extending south from the Shattered Henge and sweeping west towards Tangled Depths, however, is the original Tangle Root map. And in Guild Wars 1, while that was a map with a fair amount of verticality to it (at least by pre-HoT standards), the floor of that map was definitely wetland.

You all do realize that this argument doesn’t stand up right now, not to be insulting or mean, but I mean, you realize that Lore has been popping up that is indicating something may be stirring in the desert lands as well.

I Will seriously have to find that source again, I do believe it was in the Priory’s Library. Seriously as of right now, we don’t actually know what is happening in or around Elona. We also have no clue what is happening in Cantha. As someone posted before, Dragons are not limited by the sea and mountains.

However, since it seems now that all the dragons are within the area of Tyria, whether it be, wetlands or tundra or jungle. This doesn’t mean they didn’t Distribute, create, hatch or any other means, Minions on other continents.

I really don’t think (and I hope I am right) that they are going to leave us hanging to long on the fates of Elona and Cantha. I’d even be happy if someone in one of the Orders happens to find a book with info. Those two were my favorite continents and I know eventually they will be reintroduced to the game. The real question is: Will the writers build up good lore that’ll lead up to it?

Just my thoughts!

Dimi Gravedancer.1463:

You all do realize that this argument doesn’t stand up right now, not to be insulting or mean, but I mean, you realize that Lore has been popping up that is indicating something may be stirring in the desert lands as well.

I’m not sure who this is directed at, but the guard at the Crystal Desert gates has been saying that there’s some darkness behind it since release.

ArenaNet loves to leave loose threads that they can pick up later… or not. There are loose threads going back as far as Prophecies that have never been taken up. Just because there are hints of something happening somewhere doesn’t mean we’re going there anytime soon… or ever.

(Nor does it mean we won’t, of course, but we’d need more evidence than that, and to be frank, ArenaNet would need to speed up their mapmaking to do Elona, Cantha, or a whole new continent justice.)

(about the destroyer thing)
Wasnt it implied the Destroyers was using the Central transfer Chamber to get to the surface faster? (Kinda why taking back the CTC became so important in Eotn)
otherwise they would be digging for a looonnng time xD)

(a gate wouldnt need to be that close to the G.O.L.E.M site just closer then where ever the CTC was. and to add to that there was Asura Gates in some REALLY random spots /ravens point!)

Not the surface, necessarily. Those gates were theoretically linked to every city and outpost the asura had ever had, except for the most far-flung ones, but while some were in shallower caves, the main asura civilization was deep enough that it wouldn’t consistently get them to the surface any faster. What it would mean is when they did get to the surface, they’d be all over the place, not confined by the boundaries of a single contiguous territory the way other dragon minions are- but how much of an impact that had depends entirely on whether the asura disable the Chamber in the 42 year lull between the Great Destroyer’s destruction and Primordus’ rise.

The reason the Chamber was so important is that it was adjacent to the Great Destroyer’s lair. If we couldn’t get there, we couldn’t stop the threat. Until we found that out, we didn’t give taking the place back any thought.

Fenom.9457:

No new continents until the current map is done. Then, I want to go east or north far more interesting that elona or canthi (ok I admit interest in echovald) would be forsaken cliffs, thunder cove, Olympus, foundry, frozen gulley, fjord, and not real – that direction looks the best to me

So is “Not Real” really what that place is called, or is it a placeholder or something?

There was a map with Season 2 that had labels on far off lands. Most of them seem descriptive, and one such label was “Not Real”. The map belonged to the Priory, so the meaning behind the name is unknown.

Though two double-continents are named after two artists at ArenaNet: Gwen Yeh and Kim Dahye

Here is a fan-made recreation of the map, with English labels instead of New Krytan

Here is the original texture

I kind of hope that in the (increasingly unlikely) event we see more of the world of Tyria, that they don’t stick to that map. Its hard to explain, but there is something kind of off with that map, with how some things are positioned and how large (continental) Tyria is compared to other landmasses (Elona and Cantha in particular).

Lorewise it’d be super easy to explain why the current global map wasn’t accurate. Cartography is hard enough in a time before planes without world ending dragons getting in the way, plus it really didn’t seem like Tyria had been fully explored enough to create a world map prior to the dragons’ rising. It could simply be said that this map was created with old and flawed sources. If one looks at how flawed real world maps were in antiquity it’d be very understandable that the same issues would be present in Tyria.

The map of the world actually has an interesting tidbit to it – you can very easily reposition the continents to fit together in a pangea-like state. It’s not very odd for continental Tyria to be so huge – I mean, look at our world and how big Eurasia is compared to any other continent.

Considering that Southsun got plonked into a location which was known to be open sea (at least prior to the raising of Orr), I don’t think the devs will be too squeamish about changing the global map if it suited them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The map of the world actually has an interesting tidbit to it – you can very easily reposition the continents to fit together in a pangea-like state. It’s not very odd for continental Tyria to be so huge – I mean, look at our world and how big Eurasia is compared to any other continent.

I don’t think the idea of a super continent is my issue with this map. I think it has more to do with the proportions of the map.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I mean, look at our world and how big Eurasia is compared to any other continent.

Afro-eurasia was even bigger…. why Suez Canal? Why?!

Headcase.4618:

Fenom.9457:

No new continents until the current map is done. Then, I want to go east or north far more interesting that elona or canthi (ok I admit interest in echovald) would be forsaken cliffs, thunder cove, Olympus, foundry, frozen gulley, fjord, and not real – that direction looks the best to me

So is “Not Real” really what that place is called, or is it a placeholder or something?

The map is part of a datamine from S2, specifically the floor texture in Durmand Priory I believe. Anyway I don’t think the map was ever truly meant to be seen in such detail so the authenticity and reliability is questionable. Possibly some developers might simply have put placeholder names in there, or just random things they thought were interesting. As far as I know we haven’t had developer confirmation regarding the overall accuracy of the map.

CureForLiving.5360:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I mean, look at our world and how big Eurasia is compared to any other continent.

Afro-eurasia was even bigger…. why Suez Canal? Why?!

Headcase.4618:

Fenom.9457:

No new continents until the current map is done. Then, I want to go east or north far more interesting that elona or canthi (ok I admit interest in echovald) would be forsaken cliffs, thunder cove, Olympus, foundry, frozen gulley, fjord, and not real – that direction looks the best to me

So is “Not Real” really what that place is called, or is it a placeholder or something?

The map is part of a datamine from S2, specifically the floor texture in Durmand Priory I believe. Anyway I don’t think the map was ever truly meant to be seen in such detail so the authenticity and reliability is questionable. Possibly some developers might simply have put placeholder names in there, or just random things they thought were interesting. As far as I know we haven’t had developer confirmation regarding the overall accuracy of the map.

I do hope that’s the case.

Actually I hope Anet doesn’t try to explore all that space at all. Given how badly they have handled HoT and how their vertical exploration didn’t feel as “right” as what they made in Vanilla, they should just focus on making the best they can with the map size they already have (which is quite large, mind you). At most they could reveal Elona or a portion of it since it’s “tied” to Tyria as Eurasia is in our world.

As for a [lorewise] reason why we couldn’t explore other continents, it would be really pleasing if at least the two dragons we know the least about (Primordus and DSD) were actual “forces of nature” and we can’t even face them like the others. Thinking of it, they are the ones whose corruption take shape through a “primary” source (water and…rocks, I guess?) rather than a “secondary” one (Zhaitan, Kralk, Jormag and even Mordy all need some kind of living being or at least something which used to live in order to spread corruption, unless I’m missing something). Also, it would make more sense if such fundamental level of corruption was so powerful that we couldn’t even grasp it (coughLovecraftcough), and the oceans could be permanently out of question to us. Even if I’m missing something and every dragon is around the same “level”, I really wish at least one dragon would live up to the hype that the lore gave us.

Heck, they could even make it so Primordus and DSD are fighting for some particularly cozy layline at the sea floor and are literally tearing the world apart everywhere around Tyria for it. Anything goes as long as we don’t get a giant map filled with literally nothing stock full of repetitive events.

Mordremoth didn’t really need anything – he grew his corruption out of his own body and merely made mimicries of the living races from what he took. Primordus does the same in the latter case – his minions are mimicries of living races.

maxwelgm.4315:

Actually I hope Anet doesn’t try to explore all that space at all. Given how badly they have handled HoT and how their vertical exploration didn’t feel as “right” as what they made in Vanilla, they should just focus on making the best they can with the map size they already have (which is quite large, mind you). At most they could reveal Elona or a portion of it since it’s “tied” to Tyria as Eurasia is in our world.

This logic feels to me like it should come to the opposite conclusion. The verticality of the HoT maps is essentially an exercise in fitting as much stuff as possible into the relatively small area they had without expanding the borders. Expanding the borders would allow for more space to include vanilla-style maps.

(To be fair, currently there’s plenty of space within the existing borders for more vanilla-style maps as well. However, the HoT model is the one that allows more content to be fit into a finite-sized overworld map.)

draxynnic.3719:

To be fair, currently there’s plenty of space within the existing borders for more vanilla-style maps as well. However, the HoT model is the one that allows more content to be fit into a finite-sized overworld map.

Awww come on, they’d need like 10-12 years to fill the current world map, even when they would switch back to vanilla style maps. I really don’t think that limited space is something they should bother about.

That long if and only if they try to fill every nook and cranny (not gonna happen) or have some full-underwater maps (also not going to happen).

Yeah, you’re right. I checked again ingame and now I’d guess they need ~5 more expansions to fill the world map (of course not every little space, but the major “theme” places like charr homelands, woodland cascades etc).
That’s achieveable in 6-7 years.

However, I don’t think that it’s THAT big of a problem to enlarge the world map of a nearly ten year old game (by that time). It’s still not necessarily a new continent – to be honest, I ’d prefer going west / north / east first to reach (at least one or two of) the boundaries of the Tyrian continent.

edit: I made a little paint picture to show which “new” boundaries I’d prefer. It’s just my personal opinion of course.

Now that Mordremoth’s done, there’s really no reason to go west. What we know to be in that direction would have been around Mordremoth, beyond just a coast and an ancient no-longer-used (even by GW1) Krytan trade route.

Since they didn’t expand the borders for Mordremoth but instead went to so much trouble as to move the map of Rata Sum down a few pixels on the (zoomed out) world map, I’d say that there’s a reason for them not expanding the world map border.

Either way, North/East/South is really the only direction to expand it with worthwhile story content that we are aware of.

Honestly, I’d rather go to the Sunrise Crest or Forsaken Cliffs than Elona or Cantha, just to explore more of the world, but I think that ArenaNet is trying to focus on Central Tyria and its neighboring areas as much as possible. Which I honestly think will bite them in the butt in the long run.

I have to agree be nice to see more New areas instead of revisiting areas we have seen already!

Thanathos.2063:

draxynnic.3719:

To be fair, currently there’s plenty of space within the existing borders for more vanilla-style maps as well. However, the HoT model is the one that allows more content to be fit into a finite-sized overworld map.

Awww come on, they’d need like 10-12 years to fill the current world map, even when they would switch back to vanilla style maps. I really don’t think that limited space is something they should bother about.

It’s probably reasonable to presume that future development will be more at the S2+HoT every 2 years rate than the rate we’d seen in the past. If we also assumed flatter maps in the future, then it’s probably reasonable to presume that the effort going into Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink would yield at least three maps in the future.

It’d probably still take a decade to fill the current map at that rate, if the intention is genuinely to fill in every space.

However, I suspect that’s unlikely. There are probably going to be regions that are simply regarded as boring or inaccessible that won’t be filled in, and there’s certainly more room for new story elements if they go outside the map then if they stubbornly remain within it.