Guild Wars 2

The Nightmare is no dragon corruption, yet it behaves like one.
Once a Sylvari has fallen for the Nightmare, it seemingly can turn back.

The Nightmare Court hates the Pale Tree and its teachings and loves torture.
The members of the Nightmare Court love the Nightmare and hate everyone not part of it to an unreasonable amount , as shown formidably by Faolain, but are reasonable enough to forge an alliance against Mordremoth?

They helped Scarlet attacking the whole world but now want to save it, just because Mordremoth would enslave them, something Scarlet would never do?

It is said that they just want to be free from Ventari’s teachings, but that bears no relation to how they treat people not part of the Nightmare Court.

What is the deal with those people? Is there a greater plan behind it, or just bad storytelling?

The Nightmare Court initially began as a somewhat harsh but still a bit sympathetic sect of sylvari who felt they were being shackled by the tenets of Ventari which the Pale Tree and the Dreamers had already embraced. The Courtiers wanted the Nightmare to grow stronger in the Dream via “the end justifies the means”, so that sylvari as a race would break free and forge their own path through their own will instead of becoming ‘slaves’ to someone else’s ideology. Cadeyrn’s very reason for founding the Court was to make the Pale Tree listen to him and not make a distinction between the Firstborn and the Secondborn…although in Season 2 we learned that he was also heavily influenced/manipulated by Faolain who showed support to his ideas (and would later end up replacing him as leader of the Court).

One Courtier in particular called Gavin was actually quite reasonable and even friendly and honourable to an extent even if he served the role of an antagonist in one of the early sylvari storylines, but most Courtiers in game were indeed depicted as less sympathetic such as Sariel and Bercilak. The Knight of Embers fell somewhere in between the noble and sadistic Courtiers. All of this shows that there were, at least initially, many personalities within the Court although in the open world we really only meet the puppy-kicking jerks, which does paint Nightmare Court as needlessly black when it could’ve been depicted as a more morally grey faction. I think the reason for showing pretty much all of the open world Courtiers as irredeemable baddies in game is to simply not make players feel bad for killing hundreds of them in cold blood. I would personally love to see the NC be painted in shades of grey rather than black as they can provide lots of fascinating stories if the writers allowed them to.

Anyway, the Toxic Courtiers of the Toxic Alliance don’t represent Nightmare Court as a whole. This was clarified in a couple of interviews with devs (one of which you can read here) where they explained that the Toxic Courtiers and their Baron/Baroness were one of the power-hungry splinter factions of NC which had been formed after Faolain’s departure from Twilight Arbor (seen in said dungeon’s story mode) which had left a power vacuum in NC. Unlike the other splinter factions, however, the Toxic Courtiers chose to form an uneasy alliance with the krait and Scarlet and slowly fell under Mordremoth’s influence; this was never explicitly stated during the Tower of Nightmares release, but there are enough clues in the narrative, visuals and music (it was during this release we were first introduced to Mordremoth’s Theme, after all) to support this argument.

If anything, the Courtiers aiding the Pact against Mordremoth likely don’t represent NC as a whole but are one of the many splinter factions just like the Toxic Courtiers and the Twilight Arbor explorable’s competing Count/Countesses were. In this case the new Duchess, or whoever leads this splinter group, appears to be more reasonable than her fellow nobles or Grand Duchess Faolain were. Hopefully this means that we’ll be seeing more Courtiers like Gavin in the story again: not necessarily good people but still antagonists with virtues such as honour, some of whom might even become “friendly” enemies should the writers ever want to explore a more complex hero/villain relationship.

So in short: the once unified NC has splintered into multiple competing factions vying for power since Faolain’s departure from Twilight Arbor. Some Courtiers appear to be more reasonable than others, which explains these splinter factions’ seemingly contradictory actions in the narrative.

They are obssessed with polluting the Dream of Dreams to free the Sylvari from Ventari’s tablet which is why most of them are torturing other people.

Mordremoth is even worse than the tablet to their minds and thus they fight him more than any Sylvari.

The Nightmare Court vary in insanity though the most insane members are completely brainwashed by Faolain or other Mesmers in the Nightmare Court(and just to inform you: Faolain was insane even before she embraced the Nightmare’s pollution of the Dream into herself).

Some in the Nightmare Court are sane like Gavin for example.

The only thing all Nightmare Courtiers have in common is the desire to be free from Ventari’s tablet. They never give up on this desire ever due to their Dark Hunts forced into their being upon being turned by the other Courtiers.

Wyld Hunts have an extremely strong pull on a Sylvari drawing them to complete it to the point of obssession yet is rare for a Sylvari to get a Wyld Hunt. Dark Hunts on the other hand are given to all Nightmare Courtiers and are just as strong as Wyld Hunts thus keeping the Nightmare Courtiers from ever leaving.

Who knows what will happen now that both Modremoth and their Nightmare Courts leader are dead.

Many, I imagine will go back to the pale tree given the information on Modremoth, some will still hate the pale tree and maybe joint he bandits?
It’s safe to say the Nightmare Court we know though is gone.

Wuselknusel.4082:

They helped Scarlet attacking the whole world but now want to save it, just because Mordremoth would enslave them, something Scarlet would never do?

I just want to clarify this.

The Nightmare Court is NOT a united faction. There are splinter factions within the Nightmare Court. Think of it like Christianity if you will in regards to structure. You have various forms of Christianity – Catholicism, Lutherian, Baptist, etc. – but they all identify as “Christian”. The same notion here – we got multiple groups who have overall similar beliefs (follow the nightmare) but they don’t all act upon those believes in the same way.

Faolain is the leader of “the main faction” – equivilant, in my example, to the pope. But not all faction leaders agree with her. We see one splinter faction take up base in Sparkly/Mount Maelstrom, and we see three splinter factions war with each other in TA explorable.

The Toxic Courtiers are one such faction who worked with Scarlet – no doubt not knowing Scarlet’s plant.

It should also be noted that the Toxic Alliance had more than just an alliance happen to them. Especially with the krait it was confirmed that Scarlet messed with their minds – no doubt a pre-calling to Mordremoth and his domain of minds – while part of the alliance, which is why they kept working with her after their “prophet” (the Toxic Hybrid) died, believing apparently that “she did it once, she can do it again”.

Wuselknusel.4082:

What is the deal with those people? Is there a greater plan behind it, or just bad storytelling?

If you take into the fact that not every Courtier has the same goals or believes, then it makes sense. There is no greater plan, it’s just that Courtier A thinks they should go about things with Method 1, and Courtier B thinks they should go about things with Method 2.

Personally, I don’t really see Mordremoth’s fall affecting the Nightmare Court at all. The revelation may have some influence, and Mordremoth’s destruction would probably give them a collective sigh of relief afterwards, but apart from that… their claimed objective of “freeing” the sylvari from the influence of the Tablet holds regardless of whether Mordremoth is sleeping, active, or dead. The Nightmare appears not to be directly related to Mordremoth, so it will likely survive Mordremoth’s destruction.

An alliance with bandits is a possibility… in fact, there was already a de facto alliance with the bandits in Brisban Wildlands. That said, it’s likely that the organised banditry has taken a solid hit with Mordrem rampaging across at least part of “New Kryta” and Jennah apparently moving to impose her authority over those parts of Brisban Wildlands that aren’t already claimed by asura, skritt, or sylvari. It’s possible that parts of “New Kryta” still remain north of the Silverwastes – in fact, I’d find it disappointing if that plot thread is entirely subsumed by ‘and then Mordremoth happened’ – but while mechanically speaking most of Brisban Wildlands is still in stasis, I find it difficult to believe that the Pact and Seraph took possession of Fort Vandal without also smashing the lesser bandit forts in northern Brisban along the way. We might see more with the raid.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Toxic Courtiers are one such faction who worked with Scarlet – no doubt not knowing Scarlet’s plant.

That is a funny typo Konig.

from Dragon’s Stand’s final boss, it seems that with Faolain gone, the NC has become much more moderate in their beliefs.

platform 1 of the DS Boss fight has the new grand duchess of the nightmare court as an ally, she points out that this time they are working together instead of against each other, and after the fight mentions that she enjoyed being on our side and that we should be allies more often.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the NC turned out to be somewhat dying out, their original purpose was threefold: make people aware of the Pale Tree’s favoritism (which they succeeded at, their formation made the PT stop neglecting the non-firstborn and create the Avatar of the Pale Tree), free the sylvari from servitude to anyone (be that mordremoth or the pale tree’s expectations, again they succeeded there too, the pale tree and firstborn have become much less overbearing when it comes to ventari’s teachings when compared to what they were like in the past, and they helped kill mordremoth as part of the Pact), and to show the sylvari that the world is not always as nice as the dream would lead you to believe (again, succeeded, whilst the Nightmare was previously the only major source of “jadedness” in the dream, the events of the past few years will have given the unborn sylvari a much better view of the world)

now that so many sylvari have seen how cruel life really can be, it’s possible that the NC will tone it down a bit, they have achieved all of their goals: the tree now pays attention to them without suffocating them with ventari’s teachings, and the sylvari (and the dream by extension) have begun to become less naive.

at this point, there is probably no difference between a more moderate courtier and a regular sylvari, it’s just the extreme psychopaths that are the concern now

Calcifire, you make them sound almost …reasonable. I wouldn’t go as far as to say they are a viable choice for a PC just yet, but moderate NCs may end up being quite useful in storytelling and giving our talking cabbages a bit more depth.

I think Sylvaris not tied to the Pale Trees (there’s another one apparently) will vanish after Mordremoth death, because nothing will protect them then…

Assuming there are other Trees not claimed by Mordry (do we have any proof of that? other than the possible one, Malyck’s) what do other sylvari have to be protected against? The Dream/Nightmare only protected the Pale Tree sylvari from Mordry’s influence (and as far as we know nothing happened to it) but it’s not like sylvari in general need protection against stuff more than any other race does.

Amineo.8951:

I think Sylvaris not tied to the Pale Trees (there’s another one apparently) will vanish after Mordremoth death, because nothing will protect them then…

But there are no sylvaris not tied to pale trees. The nightmare court is still tied to a pale tree. Even the soundless are not completely cut off.

For me the Nightmare Court is way too radical to be allied with anyone not thinkong like them. Their methods just bear no relation to what they are fighting.

To give an exaggerated real-life example, the Nightmare Court is like ISIS. Both fight fanatically for their goals, both hate what they are fighting and both treat their prisoners equally bad. Saying that the Nightmare Court would ally with the Tyrian races, would be like saying that the ISIS alies with Russia to fight the USA.
And to be clear, I’m pretty certain that that will never happen.

And yes, the enemies in the open world might be exaggerating their hatred towards others, however then we should be able to see a more nuanced approach in the personal story. But we don’t. To the contrary, the personal story paints them even darker. If it’s the knight that is killing newborn Sylvari, or the Sylvari lover, that had his love interest turned into a member of the Nightmare Court. All those stories depict the Nightmare Court as pure evil, but it doesn’t stop there, they repeatedly tell you that there is no cure for being a part of the Nightmare, that you can’t turn back.
They don’t say that the Nightmare Court is a bunch of fanatics, they say that they are lost.

The thing is that the Nightmare Court not only is depicted pitch black, but also that it is evil for no reason.
I mean, if you don’t want to live under the rules of Ventari, then leave. I bet those Sylvari corsairs are also not living by Ventari’s rules.
Or you could simpy ask the Pale Tree herself! I mean, those rules should ensure peace. All Sylvari should understand that. I live in a democracy, and eventhough this democracy is “forcing” its rules onto me, that doesn’t meant that I don’t understand why we need such rules or that I would rebel against them. It is not like the Pale Tree tells the Sylvari to go out and murder each and everyone part of the Nightmare Court.

The Nightmare Court just makes no sense. On one side they are depicted as the most evil thing there is, on the other they are shown as reasonable enough to forge alliances.
And I wont buy into any discussions about “how the Nightmare Court just wants to be free from the tablet”, as long as the Nightmare is shown as something you can never escape from once you have fallen for it.

smekras.8203:

Assuming there are other Trees not claimed by Mordry (do we have any proof of that? other than the possible one, Malyck’s) what do other sylvari have to be protected against? The Dream/Nightmare only protected the Pale Tree sylvari from Mordry’s influence (and as far as we know nothing happened to it) but it’s not like sylvari in general need protection against stuff more than any other race does.

The Dream is no protection. What protected the Sylvari against elder dragons is the fact that they already are dragon minions. What protected them against Mordremoth was the Pale Tree.

Wuselknusel.4082:

smekras.8203:

Assuming there are other Trees not claimed by Mordry (do we have any proof of that? other than the possible one, Malyck’s) what do other sylvari have to be protected against? The Dream/Nightmare only protected the Pale Tree sylvari from Mordry’s influence (and as far as we know nothing happened to it) but it’s not like sylvari in general need protection against stuff more than any other race does.

The Dream is no protection. What protected the Sylvari against elder dragons is the fact that they already are dragon minions. What protected them against Mordremoth was the Pale Tree.

No. It was pretty clearly stated/shown in the story that what protected against Mord was the combination of the connection sylvaris (at least, non-soundless sylvari) have to the dream/nightmare on the one hand and stong willpower on the other hand. It is speculated that two additional things protected sylvari against Mord, namely a strong pale tree (which ceased to be the case after the attack of the shadow of the dragon) and distance from Mord (which ceased to be the case for many sylvari when they traveled to the jungle to fight him).

Diovid.9506:

Wuselknusel.4082:

smekras.8203:

Assuming there are other Trees not claimed by Mordry (do we have any proof of that? other than the possible one, Malyck’s) what do other sylvari have to be protected against? The Dream/Nightmare only protected the Pale Tree sylvari from Mordry’s influence (and as far as we know nothing happened to it) but it’s not like sylvari in general need protection against stuff more than any other race does.

The Dream is no protection. What protected the Sylvari against elder dragons is the fact that they already are dragon minions. What protected them against Mordremoth was the Pale Tree.

No. It was pretty clearly stated/shown in the story that what protected against Mord was the combination of the connection sylvaris (at least, non-soundless sylvari) have to the dream/nightmare on the one hand and stong willpower on the other hand. It is speculated that two additional things protected sylvari against Mord, namely a strong pale tree (which ceased to be the case after the attack of the shadow of the dragon) and distance from Mord (which ceased to be the case for many sylvari when they traveled to the jungle to fight him).

It was said multiple times that the Pale Tree is what is protecting the Sylvari. The Pale Tree does that through the Dream. However, the Dream itself does not grant any protection.

smekras.8203:

Assuming there are other Trees not claimed by Mordry (do we have any proof of that? other than the possible one, Malyck’s) what do other sylvari have to be protected against? The Dream/Nightmare only protected the Pale Tree sylvari from Mordry’s influence (and as far as we know nothing happened to it) but it’s not like sylvari in general need protection against stuff more than any other race does.

The Dream/Nightmare seems to protect against all Elder Dragon corruption; Mordremoth was just able to slip through the defenses – though people take the same line I take as indicating such to indicate that it “only protects against Mordremoth” (I still don’t get how they get that observation beyond the explicit denial of anything but their thought that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons – something we know is not absolute if at all true).

Wuselknusel.4082:

The Dream is no protection. What protected the Sylvari against elder dragons is the fact that they already are dragon minions. What protected them against Mordremoth was the Pale Tree.

-sigh-

There’s no source for this claim that “they are dragon minions” being any form of “protection” and you’re wrong about the Dream. It was explicitly stated that the Dream and Nightmare was protection against Mordremoth, and the Pale Tree/Ogden heavily implied it was protection against all Elder Dragons.

Wuselknusel.4082:

It was said multiple times that the Pale Tree is what is protecting the Sylvari. The Pale Tree does that through the Dream. However, the Dream itself does not grant any protection.

You have it backwards.

The Pale Tree can protect the sylvari because of her connection to the Dream. The Dream is the connection and the Pale Tree is the conduit – not the other way around.

And willpower is also a factor – and implied that distance to Mordremoth as well.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Wuselknusel.4082:

The Dream is no protection. What protected the Sylvari against elder dragons is the fact that they already are dragon minions. What protected them against Mordremoth was the Pale Tree.

-sigh-

There’s no source for this claim that “they are dragon minions” being any form of “protection” and you’re wrong about the Dream. It was explicitly stated that the Dream and Nightmare was protection against Mordremoth, and the Pale Tree/Ogden heavily implied it was protection against all Elder Dragons.

Wuselknusel.4082:

It was said multiple times that the Pale Tree is what is protecting the Sylvari. The Pale Tree does that through the Dream. However, the Dream itself does not grant any protection.

You have it backwards.

The Pale Tree can protect the sylvari because of her connection to the Dream. The Dream is the connection and the Pale Tree is the conduit – not the other way around.

And willpower is also a factor – and implied that distance to Mordremoth as well.

There are already minions of different elder dragons fighting one another in the open wirld occasionally and we can assume that there have been encounters between minions from different dragons, yet there is but one instance where we ever see beings being corrupted twice or more. And that is in CoE, where the Inquest was researching those energies. In the open world we never saw anything like that.

We also know for a fact that energy from different dragons is opposed to each other, which is a result of the fact that the dragons try to consume all magic, which includes the magic of other elder dragons. Their behavior can be compared with predators. As long as ther are enough hunting grounds, the dragons will try to stay away from each other. however, if the hunting grounds dwindle, they will have to fight each other.

And again. The Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth. The Pale Tree is a minion factory of Mordremoth. The Sylvari are the only race that is immune to other elder dragons. The Sylvari are the only race connected by the Dream. Mordremoth is using this connection as backdoor. Other elder dragons also have a connection to their minions.
So the only plausible explanation is that Mordremoth has access to the Dream, if not even is the source of it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And willpower is also a factor – and implied that distance to Mordremoth as well.

there’s no implication about it, in Rata Novus you observe that Canach has been uncharacteristically un-sarcastic, and he points out that as you get closer to Dragon’s Stand, Mordremoth’s voice gets louder and louder, but inside RN it’s completely quiet and he was savoring the mental silence.

Wuselknusel.4082:

There are already minions of different elder dragons fighting one another in the open wirld occasionally and we can assume that there have been encounters between minions from different dragons, yet there is but one instance where we ever see beings being corrupted twice or more. And that is in CoE, where the Inquest was researching those energies. In the open world we never saw anything like that.

Not counting sylvari, where do we see dragon minions fight? The only time they come close to each other is the mordrem invasion in Iron Marches – one spot in there, even, and they don’t fight. The branded remain within the Dragonbrand, and the mordrem remain outside of it.

We never see any encounter between minions of different Elder Dragons, except for in CoE, and only in CoE do we see a combination of dragon energies in a being. Three times.

Wuselknusel.4082:

We also know for a fact that energy from different dragons is opposed to each other,

Pure speculation, not fact. If it is a fact, please provide a source. Because I’ve never seen it and the only “explanation” for this so called “fact” is that the dragons’ orbs are on opposite sides of each other on The All – but when the Elder Dragons encircle Tyria in a 2d depiction of The All, of course they’d be on opposite sides! But nowhere is it said they have opposite energy. It’s nothing more than player supposition.

Just another bandwagon theory like how the Exalted were mursaat.

Wuselknusel.4082:

which is a result of the fact that the dragons try to consume all magic, which includes the magic of other elder dragons.

It’s also pure player speculation that the Elder Dragons would try to consume the magic of other elder dragons. Developer statements actually state that how the Elder Dragons view each other is fully unknown because there is no interaction observed.

Further, this statement is contradictory. Corruption is a result of Elder Dragons consuming magic. If they cannot corrupt another dragons’ minions, then they cannot consume another dragons’ energy.

Wuselknusel.4082:

And again. The Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth. The Pale Tree is a minion factory of Mordremoth. The Sylvari are the only race that is immune to other elder dragons. The Sylvari are the only race connected by the Dream. Mordremoth is using this connection as backdoor. Other elder dragons also have a connection to their minions.
So the only plausible explanation is that Mordremoth has access to the Dream, if not even is the source of it.

Sylvari are freed minions of Mordremoth, and therefore do not function like Mordrem.

Even the Mordrem Guard do not function like ‘true’ Mordrem. If they go distant enough, they regain their original sanity as seen for one of the story achievements in Act 3. In other words get a mordrem guard far enough away from Mordremoth, and they will act the same as they ever did. This shows an interesting thing: Mordremoth did not re-corrupt sylvari. He just gave them impulsions – as explained both by dev blogs and by Canach, he did this by implanting thoughts and making the sylvari think said thoughts were their own. It would be as if you heard a voice in your head that came in your own tone telling you to burn all the things. Some folks hearing this will think “that’s not how I am” but others will go “yes… burn all the things!” This is the situation with the mordrem guard.

As for their physical appearance, it was established with Canach that extreme changes to personality or one’s situations can change their physical appearance. Canach went from a light green skinned, white-leaf head (which we saw in both The Lost Shores and S2E7’s flashback) to a dark green skinned, cactus head with a ‘beard’. With the implanting of thoughts changing their actions and convincing them to do things, sylvari would undergo an “extreme change to personality and/or situation” which in turn changes their physical appearance.

It’s not corruption – it’s taking advantage of a sylvari’s physiology.

Which actually makes sense given that Mordremoth didn’t try to corrupt the Pale Tree nor did Kralkatorrik try to corrupt Glint. This shows that dragon minions once freed from control cannot be recorrupted by the same dragon. Other dragons? That’s a question to be had. With the Dream being the protection for the sylvari, the only way to know for sure is to toss a Soundless at dragon corruption.

Back to your comment:

• Sylvari are NOT the only race with access to the Dream – see the White Stag – and not all sylvari are connected to the Dream – see Malyck. Of sylvari, only the Pale Tree’s sylvari has known access to the Dream.
• We know Mordremoth has access to the Dream – that’s how we attack his mind, his access to the Dream.
• We know Mordremoth isn’t likely to be the source of the Dream, as the Dream gives the sylvari PC a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth when the Shadow of the Dragon attacks the Tyrian summit. Mordremoth would not give an order to kill itself. Furthermore, the Dream and Nightmare are both stated to act as defense against Mordremoth.

I always assumed that the Nightmare is the result of parts of the dream being damaged by Mordremoth’s attacks on it. The Pale Tree tries to maintain the illusion, but it’s inevitable that the constant attacks on it will have side effects. It’s been established that they’re corrupted somehow, yet not Mordrem. The Nightmare being an unintended side effect of dragon corruption makes sense.

But that wouldn’t really make sense for why the Nightmare also protects against Mordremoth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But that wouldn’t really make sense for why the Nightmare also protects against Mordremoth.

Because it’s technically still part of the Dream, just a damaged part of it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Wuselknusel.4082:

There are already minions of different elder dragons fighting one another in the open wirld occasionally and we can assume that there have been encounters between minions from different dragons, yet there is but one instance where we ever see beings being corrupted twice or more. And that is in CoE, where the Inquest was researching those energies. In the open world we never saw anything like that.

Not counting sylvari, where do we see dragon minions fight? The only time they come close to each other is the mordrem invasion in Iron Marches – one spot in there, even, and they don’t fight. The branded remain within the Dragonbrand, and the mordrem remain outside of it.

We never see any encounter between minions of different Elder Dragons, except for in CoE, and only in CoE do we see a combination of dragon energies in a being. Three times.

Wuselknusel.4082:

We also know for a fact that energy from different dragons is opposed to each other,

Pure speculation, not fact. If it is a fact, please provide a source. Because I’ve never seen it and the only “explanation” for this so called “fact” is that the dragons’ orbs are on opposite sides of each other on The All – but when the Elder Dragons encircle Tyria in a 2d depiction of The All, of course they’d be on opposite sides! But nowhere is it said they have opposite energy. It’s nothing more than player supposition.

Just another bandwagon theory like how the Exalted were mursaat.

Wuselknusel.4082:

which is a result of the fact that the dragons try to consume all magic, which includes the magic of other elder dragons.

It’s also pure player speculation that the Elder Dragons would try to consume the magic of other elder dragons. Developer statements actually state that how the Elder Dragons view each other is fully unknown because there is no interaction observed.

Further, this statement is contradictory. Corruption is a result of Elder Dragons consuming magic. If they cannot corrupt another dragons’ minions, then they cannot consume another dragons’ energy.

Wuselknusel.4082:

And again. The Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth. The Pale Tree is a minion factory of Mordremoth. The Sylvari are the only race that is immune to other elder dragons. The Sylvari are the only race connected by the Dream. Mordremoth is using this connection as backdoor. Other elder dragons also have a connection to their minions.
So the only plausible explanation is that Mordremoth has access to the Dream, if not even is the source of it.

Sylvari are freed minions of Mordremoth, and therefore do not function like Mordrem.

Even the Mordrem Guard do not function like ‘true’ Mordrem. If they go distant enough, they regain their original sanity as seen for one of the story achievements in Act 3. In other words get a mordrem guard far enough away from Mordremoth, and they will act the same as they ever did. This shows an interesting thing: Mordremoth did not re-corrupt sylvari. He just gave them impulsions – as explained both by dev blogs and by Canach, he did this by implanting thoughts and making the sylvari think said thoughts were their own. It would be as if you heard a voice in your head that came in your own tone telling you to burn all the things. Some folks hearing this will think “that’s not how I am” but others will go “yes… burn all the things!” This is the situation with the mordrem guard.

As for their physical appearance, it was established with Canach that extreme changes to personality or one’s situations can change their physical appearance. Canach went from a light green skinned, white-leaf head (which we saw in both The Lost Shores and S2E7’s flashback) to a dark green skinned, cactus head with a ‘beard’. With the implanting of thoughts changing their actions and convincing them to do things, sylvari would undergo an “extreme change to personality and/or situation” which in turn changes their physical appearance.

It’s not corruption – it’s taking advantage of a sylvari’s physiology.

Which actually makes sense given that Mordremoth didn’t try to corrupt the Pale Tree nor did Kralkatorrik try to corrupt Glint. This shows that dragon minions once freed from control cannot be recorrupted by the same dragon. Other dragons? That’s a question to be had. With the Dream being the protection for the sylvari, the only way to know for sure is to toss a Soundless at dragon corruption.

Back to your comment:

• Sylvari are NOT the only race with access to the Dream – see the White Stag – and not all sylvari are connected to the Dream – see Malyck. Of sylvari, only the Pale Tree’s sylvari has known access to the Dream.
• We know Mordremoth has access to the Dream – that’s how we attack his mind, his access to the Dream.
• We know Mordremoth isn’t likely to be the source of the Dream, as the Dream gives the sylvari PC a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth when the Shadow of the Dragon attacks the Tyrian summit. Mordremoth would not give an order to kill itself. Furthermore, the Dream and Nightmare are both stated to act as defense against Mordremoth.

Disregarding the fact that you did contradict your own claim by saying that Sylvari are freed minions and that freed minions can’t be corrupted again, which would mean that Mordremoth should not be able to control Sylvari, I do think that you shouldn’t stretch the fact that willpower can help you resist to an elder dragon too much.
Both because the fact that there is just one other occasion where an elder dragon corrupted self-aware beings against their will, and that was when Kralkatorrik flew south, and even there we have an example of someone who was able to resist the dragon’s corruption: Almorra Soulkeeper. Almost all other dragon minions we know of are either not self-aware or joined the dragon freely, with the exeption of the Kodan, eventhough they also have a strong connection to Koda, which itself is somehow connected to Jormag. This could explain the fact that neither Mordremoth, nor Kralkatorrik tried to kill the Pale Tree or Glint, instead of corruption them: Because both Glint and the Pale Tree have too much willpower to be corrupted. It is also worth noting that both have a prophetic nature, which would probably help resisting an elder dragon.

But back to your responses:
The reason for the White Stag’s existence, is unknown, yet it is in no way proving that the Dream is not part of Mordremoth.
Malyck is not something you should argue with, because we either don’t know enough about him, or he is just poorly written (Speaking of: Why does he look like ‘our’ Sylvari?).
To understand why Sylvari not born from the Pale Tree have no connection to it, you have to think about the Dream like the Internet. The Pale Tree is the provider. Without a connection to the Pale Tree, you don’t have acess to the Dream.
Considering this, it makes even more sense that the Pale Tree is protecting the Sylvari by shielding the part of the Dream she has control over from Mordremoth.

And I do think that Mordremoth is the source if the Dream, or rather the energy he represents is the source. But as we know, he doesn’t have control over the Dream entirely. It could very well be that the Dream is giving Wyld Hunts based on the experiences the Sylvari have carried into the Dream, rather than being decided by Mordremoth.

I also don’t know how the Dream should protect you from corruption. Your internet connection doesn’t stop you from getting viruses, so why should a backdoor in your mind help with that? It is much more likely that if you have one type of dragon energy inside you, you can’t be taken over by another one.
The corrupted in CoE are an exeption for that. Just like a fridge can make a space artificially cooler, something that wouldn’t happen without the fridge, the Inquest was able to corrupt a being twice, something that would just not happen under normal circumstances.

And I could keep arguing based on that that Malyck has a Dream, he is just too far away to notice it and his amnesia stops him from remebering his Dream, and I could keep arguing that Mordremoth is the source of the Dream, or is atleast part of the source of the Dream, since he is the only elder dragon that is able to control Sylvari through the Dream.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Disregarding the fact that you did contradict your own claim by saying that Sylvari are freed minions and that freed minions can’t be corrupted again, which would mean that Mordremoth should not be able to control Sylvari, I do think that you shouldn’t stretch the fact that willpower can help you resist to an elder dragon too much.

You either completely misunderstood my post, didn’t read it fully, or are intentionally twisting my words to suit your own needs.

Let me give a tl;dr version so you don’t do any of the above. In order of your proclaimed “contradictions” that I made:

• Sylvari do seem to be freed minions, no different than Glint and by extension Glint’s children, the Crystal Spiders, and the Crystal Guardians seen in GW1.
• I said that there is no proof that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by an Elder Dragon – and indeed, there is none.
• I said that freed minions, by all appearance, cannot be corrupted again by the Elder Dragon that originally corrupted them. I did not, however, say that they cannot be corrupted by other Elder Dragons. For all we know, a sylvari disconnected from the Dream can and would be corrupted by Jormag, Kralkatorrik, etc.
• I explained how Mordremoth did not corrupt the sylvari, but did manage to take control in a more subtle manner than corruption. We see this in how a mordrem guard react the exact same way that Canach does when going to Rata Novus’ underground tunnels – both say that “the voice is quiet down here” (paraphrasing since both say the same thing differently).

Wuselknusel.4082:

Both because the fact that there is just one other occasion where an elder dragon corrupted self-aware beings against their will, and that was when Kralkatorrik flew south, and even there we have an example of someone who was able to resist the dragon’s corruption: Almorra Soulkeeper.

It was confirmed that Almorra actually stood outside of the Dragonbrand in an interview. The book just portrayed this poorly.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Almost all other dragon minions we know of are either not self-aware or joined the dragon freely, with the exeption of the Kodan, eventhough they also have a strong connection to Koda, which itself is somehow connected to Jormag.

Dragon minion grunts are for all dragon minions effectively mindless. The lack of mindlessness is what was supposed to make the mordrem guard so much more devastating. Even regular mordrem are supposedly mindless. The exception to this mindless rule are lieutenants and champions – the more powerful they are, the more corruption was given to them, which also makes them more intelligent and capable of doing more things, including directing the weaker and dumber dragon minions.

I don’t know of anything that says all kodan are self-aware. We only see two, iirc, that are, and they could easily be considered “more powerful dragon minions”. And not all kodan have a connection to Koda – only the Voices do. And where the heck do you get that Koda is connected to Jormag?

Wuselknusel.4082:

This could explain the fact that neither Mordremoth, nor Kralkatorrik tried to kill the Pale Tree or Glint, instead of corruption them: Because both Glint and the Pale Tree have too much willpower to be corrupted.

And you say I’m the one taking the willpower thing too far.

Elder Dragons have shown time and time again to be able to corrupt anyone, and their personalities after being corrupted are completely different in almost every case. We see many cases of individuals going “the Elder Dragons must die” and after corruption going “you will serve the Dragon!” Willpower has nothing to do with standard corruption. But Mordremoth’s affect on the sylvari wasn’t standard corruption (just like how Jormag doesn’t typically do standard corruption).

Wuselknusel.4082:

It is also worth noting that both have a prophetic nature, which would probably help resisting an elder dragon.

The Pale Tree doesn’t have prophetic nature at all – the Dream, however, which is entirely different from the Pale Tree, does allow glimpses of the tangible future. And Glint had hers when she was a dragon champion serving Kralkatorrik – she used that power to help defend Kralkatorrik, as explained in Edge of Destiny.

Wuselknusel.4082:

The reason for the White Stag’s existence, is unknown, yet it is in no way proving that the Dream is not part of Mordremoth.

Except for how it explicitly stated to be protecting against Mordremoth?

Why would Mordremoth have a piece of himself resist him?

Wuselknusel.4082:

Malyck is not something you should argue with, because we either don’t know enough about him, or he is just poorly written (Speaking of: Why does he look like ‘our’ Sylvari?).

He explicitly states he has no Dream and no knowledge of what the PC or other sylvari are talking about when talking about the Dream and Nightmare multiple times. Poorly written or not, it’s a fact that he has no Dream.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Considering this, it makes even more sense that the Pale Tree is protecting the Sylvari by shielding the part of the Dream she has control over from Mordremoth.

If the Dream is a part of Mordremoth, how could the Pale Tree possibly control a piece of the Elder Dragon?

Wuselknusel.4082:

And I do think that Mordremoth is the source if the Dream, or rather the energy he represents is the source. But as we know, he doesn’t have control over the Dream entirely. It could very well be that the Dream is giving Wyld Hunts based on the experiences the Sylvari have carried into the Dream, rather than being decided by Mordremoth.

If the Dream comes from the sphere of power that Mordremoth represents/has control over, then it isn’t a part of Mordremoth at all. You just contradicted yourself. Again.

Wuselknusel.4082:

And I could keep arguing based on that that Malyck has a Dream, he is just too far away to notice it and his amnesia stops him from remebering his Dream, and I could keep arguing that Mordremoth is the source of the Dream, or is atleast part of the source of the Dream, since he is the only elder dragon that is able to control Sylvari through the Dream.

You don’t get disconnected from the internet because you can’t remember you have it – using your (rather poor, IMO) analogy. Nor does any other sylvari, regardless of distance to the Pale Tree, ever feel disconnected from the Dream to the point of feeling nothing – which is explicitly and multiply what Malyck says.

Mordremoth is able to influence (not control) sylvari through the Dream because he is the Elder Dragon of Minds. The Dream is linked to sylvari minds. 1+1=?

Calcifire.1864:

f
now that so many sylvari have seen how cruel life really can be, it’s possible that the NC will tone it down a bit, they have achieved all of their goals: the tree now pays attention to them without suffocating them with ventari’s teachings, and the sylvari (and the dream by extension) have begun to become less naive.

Isn’t the Pale Tree still dropping in and out of a comatose state? I can sort of agree with them becoming less militant, but I don’t see it going away because in the end they’re still an anarchist faction, they’ll never be able to integrate into the Grove and some of them will still continue killing and torturing and spreading Nightmare (which is done by killing and torturing). We might work together sometimes when there is mutual interest, but I don’t see us becoming chummy.

Diovid.9506:

Amineo.8951:

I think Sylvaris not tied to the Pale Trees (there’s another one apparently) will vanish after Mordremoth death, because nothing will protect them then…

But there are no sylvaris not tied to pale trees. The nightmare court is still tied to a pale tree. Even the soundless are not completely cut off.

Malyck isn’t tied to the Pale Tree, since he is a Sylvari and Sylvari as far as we tell come from a tree it stands to reason that Malyck must have come from a tree as well, and then it’s not that big of a leap to argue that he might have brothers and sisters.

Wuselknusel.4082:

All those stories depict the Nightmare Court as pure evil

I wouldn’t say evil so much as amoral (as apposed to immoral). Mind you I guess that’s more or a personal opinion since many seem to consider them to be consequentialists.

Wuselknusel.4082:

The Nightmare Court just makes no sense. On one side they are depicted as the most evil thing there is, on the other they are shown as reasonable enough to forge alliances.
And I wont buy into any discussions about “how the Nightmare Court just wants to be free from the tablet”, as long as the Nightmare is shown as something you can never escape from once you have fallen for it.

Well there’s where the consequentialist argument comes in, if their end goal is freedom and they believe that nightmare provides them with freedom and they way to increase nightmare is though death and torture… well the ends justify the means.
Again I think it’s more a matter of them being amoral, they do what they like without any consideration of right or wrong. If some like torturing they’ll torture, if they like killing they’ll kill etc.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Dream/Nightmare seems to protect against all Elder Dragon corruption; Mordremoth was just able to slip through the defenses – though people take the same line I take as indicating such to indicate that it “only protects against Mordremoth” (I still don’t get how they get that observation beyond the explicit denial of anything but their thought that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons – something we know is not absolute if at all true).

The Dream / Nightmare seems to provide protection to mental corruption, protection against physical corruption could be because they are dragon minions. During vanilla they never explain why Zhaitan can’t corrupt them, simply that they are immune to his corruption. Since no Soundless were corrupted (and we know Soundless are susceptible to Mordy) by Zhaitan… well maybe the Pact didn’t have a single Soundless during the Orr campaign, but we do know Risen are in Caledon forest and we do know Soundless are there as well… So it does seems that there is a clear difference between how they react to Mordy and to Zhaitan’s corruption (and this might then relate to the dream and Mordy primarily attempting to corrupt their minds).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not counting sylvari, where do we see dragon minions fight? The only time they come close to each other is the mordrem invasion in Iron Marches – one spot in there, even, and they don’t fight. The branded remain within the Dragonbrand, and the mordrem remain outside of it.

Actually during the pre-HoT event in Skrittburg the Modrem and the Destroyers were fighting. Mind you that was probably a bug, but still they fought.

Stormbolt.7293:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But that wouldn’t really make sense for why the Nightmare also protects against Mordremoth.

Because it’s technically still part of the Dream, just a damaged part of it.

I got more the impression that Nightmare and Dream were two separate forces warring of the same turf. The Nightmare Court don’t so much corrupt the Dream to create Nightmare, but fed Nightmare to increase it compared to the Dream.
Mind you I might be wrong.

CureForLiving.5360:

Diovid.9506:

Amineo.8951:

I think Sylvaris not tied to the Pale Trees (there’s another one apparently) will vanish after Mordremoth death, because nothing will protect them then…

But there are no sylvaris not tied to pale trees. The nightmare court is still tied to a pale tree. Even the soundless are not completely cut off.

Malyck isn’t tied to the Pale Tree, since he is a Sylvari and Sylvari as far as we tell come from a tree it stands to reason that Malyck must have come from a tree as well, and then it’s not that big of a leap to argue that he might have brothers and sisters.

I’m not sure if you’re disagreeing with me or agreeing with me. But basically you said what I was trying to say. All sylvari are tied to ‘a’ tree. I shouldn’t have used the word ‘pale trees’ there perhaps but what I meant with ‘pale trees’ was ‘trees similar to the pale tree’.

The Nightmare Court has always seemed to have three general groups associated with it:

The first is the idealists – the ones that genuinely believe in the Nightmare Court’s stated objective. Cadeyrne, while a bit of a spoiled brat, seems to have genuinely been of this type before becoming Faolain’s lapdog, and Gavin in the White Stag storyline may have been the best example.

The second are those who are in it for their own gain. Faolain seems to be one example – she seems to have rankled at the Tablet not because she cared about the future of the sylvari as a race but because it was a barrier to her gaining her own power. More generally, the Nightmare Court is naturally going to attract sadists who care nothing for the stated objective, but simply see it as an excuse to cause pain to others.

The third are those who have been genuinely consumed by Nightmare.

To a significant extent, the Nightmare Court we’ve seen is probably the result of Faolain’s influence, who – from what we’ve seen – seems to have largely viewed the Nightmare Court as being a vehicle for gathering power for herself with the Court’s claimed goal being little more than recruitment propaganda. With her out of the picture, though, if her replacement is from the first group, then it would make sense that they could consider that their mission to be accomplished and that continuing their past activities is needlessly harming the sylvari as a whole or pushing the balance too far in the opposite direction. Now, it’s likely that even this relatively moderate faction has committed acts that will make it hard for mainstream sylvari society to accept them – however, if they make a genuine effort at curbing the excesses of the other two, then they might eventually be able to prove themselves. Alternatively, they might take an approach of ‘the society we’ve created has no place for us’ and extricate themselves to fight other threats to the sylvari elsewhere.

The advantage from ArenaNet’s story perspective is that they can have this happen without having to change or remove the existing Nightmare Court enemies in the open world, as they can simply have those existing enemies be the Nightmare Courtiers that are genuinely irredeemable.

The Dream / Nightmare seems to provide protection to mental corruption, protection against physical corruption could be because they are dragon minions.

We see ion Crucible of Eternity that a creature can be physically corrupted by the energies from multiple dragons. You could claim that this is something that “only happens in a lab”… but can we really be so sure that the Inquest have become more proficient at using it than the dragons themselves? I guess it is possible that the dragons are simply lazy and don’t bother because it’s more difficult, but really, I don’t think this is a hair that really needs to be split.

(Although I am wondering now if the Dream might actually be part of Glint’s legacy…)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You either completely misunderstood my post, didn’t read it fully, or are intentionally twisting my words to suit your own needs.

Let me give a tl;dr version so you don’t do any of the above. In order of your proclaimed “contradictions” that I made:

• Sylvari do seem to be freed minions, no different than Glint and by extension Glint’s children, the Crystal Spiders, and the Crystal Guardians seen in GW1.
• I said that there is no proof that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by an Elder Dragon – and indeed, there is none.
• I said that freed minions, by all appearance, cannot be corrupted again by the Elder Dragon that originally corrupted them. I did not, however, say that they cannot be corrupted by other Elder Dragons. For all we know, a sylvari disconnected from the Dream can and would be corrupted by Jormag, Kralkatorrik, etc.
• I explained how Mordremoth did not corrupt the sylvari, but did manage to take control in a more subtle manner than corruption. We see this in how a mordrem guard react the exact same way that Canach does when going to Rata Novus’ underground tunnels – both say that “the voice is quiet down here” (paraphrasing since both say the same thing differently).

You said that Sylvari seem to be freed minions, which does mean that Mordremoth should not have any control over them. But he does, due to the fact that the Sylvari are still dragon minions.
I believe that elder dragons don’t corrupt beings that have been freed, which we know two of, not because of the fact that they have been freed, but because they were too powerful to be corrupted. Their willpower was strong enough to resist the dragon.
The fact that they are freed minions had nothing to do with it.

Both because the fact that there is just one other occasion where an elder dragon corrupted self-aware beings against their will, and that was when Kralkatorrik flew south, and even there we have an example of someone who was able to resist the dragon’s corruption: Almorra Soulkeeper.

It was confirmed that Almorra actually stood outside of the Dragonbrand in an interview. The book just portrayed this poorly.

Dragon minion grunts are for all dragon minions effectively mindless. The lack of mindlessness is what was supposed to make the mordrem guard so much more devastating. Even regular mordrem are supposedly mindless. The exception to this mindless rule are lieutenants and champions – the more powerful they are, the more corruption was given to them, which also makes them more intelligent and capable of doing more things, including directing the weaker and dumber dragon minions.

I don’t know of anything that says all kodan are self-aware. We only see two, iirc, that are, and they could easily be considered “more powerful dragon minions”. And not all kodan have a connection to Koda – only the Voices do. And where the heck do you get that Koda is connected to Jormag?

That was not the point I was making. I said mindless beings can’t resist the dragon, since they have no mind and that only self-aware beings have the chance to resist.

And you say I’m the one taking the willpower thing too far.

Elder Dragons have shown time and time again to be able to corrupt anyone, and their personalities after being corrupted are completely different in almost every case. We see many cases of individuals going “the Elder Dragons must die” and after corruption going “you will serve the Dragon!” Willpower has nothing to do with standard corruption. But Mordremoth’s affect on the sylvari wasn’t standard corruption (just like how Jormag doesn’t typically do standard corruption).

We know from the Sylvari and frankly from any elder dragon that once you have fallen for it, you can’t turn back. So there is only one chance for you to resist. The fact that many haven’t resisted shows that it is hard to resist, the fact that Glint or the Tree weren’t corrupted shows that it’s possible.

The Pale Tree doesn’t have prophetic nature at all – the Dream, however, which is entirely different from the Pale Tree, does allow glimpses of the tangible future. And Glint had hers when she was a dragon champion serving Kralkatorrik – she used that power to help defend Kralkatorrik, as explained in Edge of Destiny.

Yet both are powerful beings, which would explain why they were able to resist the corruption.

Except for how it explicitly stated to be protecting against Mordremoth?

Why would Mordremoth have a piece of himself resist him?

Where is it told that the white stag has anythng to do with the protection of Mordremoth?

He explicitly states he has no Dream and no knowledge of what the PC or other sylvari are talking about when talking about the Dream and Nightmare multiple times. Poorly written or not, it’s a fact that he has no Dream.

He also explicitly states that he feels “a great sense of distance and loss”.
now, what do we know both about the protection the Pale Tree offers and Mordremoth’s influence? Both grow weaker over distance.

If the Dream is a part of Mordremoth, how could the Pale Tree possibly control a piece of the Elder Dragon?

Because like the Pale Tree has no control over it, Mordremoth hasn’t either. He is the source of the Dream, but the Pale Tree was able to “pervert” a part of it. Just like the Nightmare “perverted” a part of the Dream.

If the Dream comes from the sphere of power that Mordremoth represents/has control over, then it isn’t a part of Mordremoth at all. You just contradicted yourself. Again.

Why should there be a difference between the sphere and the elder dragon? The sphere represents all energy of that energy type. The elder dragon is just the peak of that.

You don’t get disconnected from the internet because you can’t remember you have it – using your (rather poor, IMO) analogy. Nor does any other sylvari, regardless of distance to the Pale Tree, ever feel disconnected from the Dream to the point of feeling nothing – which is explicitly and multiply what Malyck says.

Mordremoth is able to influence (not control) sylvari through the Dream because he is the Elder Dragon of Minds. The Dream is linked to sylvari minds. 1+1=?

But if you’re in the middle of the Sahara with amnesia, you neither have internet, nor can you remember it. I’ll admit that if Mordremoth is the ED of Minds, that he may be able to use the Dream’s link. Wich would then leave the question why all other races are completely unaffected. Zhaitan was able to use the corpses of all races, except from Sylvari. Why does Mordremoth then seem to be weaker, evnthough it was said that he is stronger than Zhaitan?

And what is your theory then?
Why do Sylvari have a Dream, if it’s not connected to Mordremoth? How would the Pale Tree have been connected to it? Where lies its source? Why, out of all races, does only the dragon minion race have a connection to network that not only is really hard to disconnect from, but also is prone to the attacks of the very elder dragon that created them? And if the Dream is not created by Mordremoth, shouldn’t the Mordrem Guard’s memories be uploaded to the Dream of the Pale Tree? Why don’t we hear anyone speak about it?

And back to my old question, why does the Nightmare behave like corruption, when it’s said that the members of the Nightmare Court “just” want to be free of the Tablet?

First, you seem to have misunderstood what happened with Glint. Glint WAS a champion of Kralkatorrik, fully corrupted, fully loyal to Kralkatorrik. If there is any form of “saving throw” to dragon corruption other than not coming into contact with it, be it will or fortitude, Glaust failed. A Forgotten ritual gave her her free will back, and even then, it seems to have taken time for Glint’s loyalty to actually change. Even the cleansing ritual doesn’t seem to break the link entirely, it “just” serves to allow the cleansed being to develop its own personality and goals separate to the Elder Dragon’s. There are indications in Edge of Destiny that Glint and Kralkatorrik both have some link that allows them to at least have some general idea of where the other is and what state it’s in. Mordremoth, being specialised in mind magic, could be expected to be able to use the mental aspect of this link to greater effect, while Glint, being superior in the field of mental magic to her master (that was her purpose as a champion) could probably hedge out any influence of Kralkatorrik on her thoughts entirely once she had the free will to choose not to listen.

Sylvari seem to behave in a similar way, except that the strengths are reversed – Mordremoth is more powerful than any sylvari. The Pale Tree might have been able to oppose them while she was healthy, but after she was wounded…

When it comes to usage of corpses: Mordremoth DOES use corpses. If anything, in fact, Mordremoth may use them to greater effect than Zhaitan did. Zhaitan simply raises a corpse once - Mordremoth can assimilate a body like the Zerg and create as many copies as it has the resources to do so.That’s what’s going on with the Mordrem Itzel, dinosaurs, and so on. In fact, I’m inclined to think that this confirms the old theory about the sylvari looking like humans because the Pale Tree was planted on a cemetary: the Pale Tree using the bodies as a template is analagous to the Mordrem pods using prisoners and corpses as templates.

When it comes to the Dream: My own theory is that it’s a layer of the Mists, largely coterminous with Tyria, which reflects the thoughts and dreams of thinking beings. The Pale Tree has a special connection to it, as do the sylvari and certain other creatures, but I’m inclined to think that all thinking beings, and possibly animals and sentient plants as well, have some connection and impact on the Dream (consider the skritt and asura reflections in the sylvari opening instance). Mordremoth is apparently one of those beings, but this could be because Mordremoth’s domain is mind and that leads to being able to form such a connection, or it could even be that Mordremoth has a connection with the Dream purely because the sylvari do and Mordremoth can hijack that connection. Nevertheless, it is pretty clear that things can come out of the dream that act against Mordremoth, so either it was never his to begin with, or something has cleansed it in a similar manner to how Glint was cleansed.

Regarding “falling to Nightmare” – this could simply be a feedback loop. A sylvari is exposed to and embraces the Nightmare, which pushes them to do things that strengthens both the Nightmare as a whole and the attunement of that sylvari to the Nightmare. The strengthened Nightmare then exerts more influence on the sylvari, pushing them to do even darker deeds, further strengthening the Nightmare’s grip on that sylvari and pushing them to do even worse things… until they’re in so deep they can’t get out. It’s also worth remembering that the sylvari from the Pale Tree are less than thirty years old and the Nightmare Court is even younger than that, so it’s possible that ‘you can never come back’ actually means ‘we haven’t figured out how’.

It’d be interesting to see what would happen if the Forgotten ritual was performed on a sylvari who had fallen to Nightmare. If it is analogous to dragon corruption, theoretically that would have a chance of bringing them back (they may continue out of sadism, Stockholm syndrome, or the like, though). If the ritual appears to do nothing to a sylvari who has fallen to Nightmare, though, that suggests it might be something else.

We have many examples of fully corrupted individuals, we also have some examples of people being corrupted. We have the Norn near the Claw of Jormag and we have Kellach (from the top of my head), both demonstrate a certain capacity to rebel against their corruption (although it seems clear that in both cases they’re pretty much doomed in the long run). I’d argue that (on a case by case basis) there is a level of mental fortitude against corruption, but that it is in and of itself not a preventative measure and not viable in the long term.

CureForLiving.5360:

The Dream / Nightmare seems to provide protection to mental corruption, protection against physical corruption could be because they are dragon minions. During vanilla they never explain why Zhaitan can’t corrupt them, simply that they are immune to his corruption. Since no Soundless were corrupted (and we know Soundless are susceptible to Mordy) by Zhaitan… well maybe the Pact didn’t have a single Soundless during the Orr campaign, but we do know Risen are in Caledon forest and we do know Soundless are there as well… So it does seems that there is a clear difference between how they react to Mordy and to Zhaitan’s corruption (and this might then relate to the dream and Mordy primarily attempting to corrupt their minds).

It was never explained why because they didn’t know why. The Pale Tree likely knew, but didn’t say. Ogden hints that it’s because of the Dream during Hidden Arcana, as does the Pale Tree earlier, but never confirmed outright.

We never saw a single Soundless corrupted because they remain in their isolated communities for the most part. The one and only Soundless who we know of that didn’t live in northern Caledon Forest – far from the risen influence in Caledon at that (which is stated to be very recent) is Aerin.

CureForLiving.5360:

Actually during the pre-HoT event in Skrittburg the Modrem and the Destroyers were fighting. Mind you that was probably a bug, but still they fought.

I never once saw those mordrem fighting anything. Even when the two events were happening right on top of each other, EXCEPT when AoE from one group hit another while both groups were attacking players.

This is a mechanic called ‘invisibility’ which basically means they ’don’t register each others’ presence until attacked by’. Neutral foes are set to this for players.

Wuselknusel.4082:

You said that Sylvari seem to be freed minions, which does mean that Mordremoth should not have any control over them. But he does, due to the fact that the Sylvari are still dragon minions.

If you actually read my post you’d know that I stated that Mordremoth does not have control over them – not corruption-based control which is brainwashing. His control over the mordrem guard is a different flavor, in that he’s continuously implanting thoughts that they think are their own.

That’s not corruption.

Wuselknusel.4082:

I believe that elder dragons don’t corrupt beings that have been freed, which we know two of, not because of the fact that they have been freed, but because they were too powerful to be corrupted. Their willpower was strong enough to resist the dragon.
The fact that they are freed minions had nothing to do with it.

But to be freed from corruption, they had to have once been corrupted in the first place.

Elder Dragons cannot control what they don’t corrupt. They can only convince fealty – which is what Jormag does to the Sons of Svanir, and what Mordremoth does to the Mordrem Guard.

Which is actually a very apt comparison – neither are corrupted, but both serve their dragon. The main difference is that Mordrem Guard originate as dragon minions who were purified by still-unknown means but then returned to ‘willingly’ serve their dragon. The secondary difference is how Jormag and Mordremoth convince fealty – Jormag promises power to those who cooperate, Mordremoth makes them think what his orders are are their own thoughts and ideas.

Wuselknusel.4082:

That was not the point I was making. I said mindless beings can’t resist the dragon, since they have no mind and that only self-aware beings have the chance to resist.

There is no such thing as a mindless being. Such entities are called braindead. Obviously, grubs, krait, charr, humans, etc. are not brain dead when turned into branded, risen, icebrood, etc.

I really do not understand this “point” that you were making.

Wuselknusel.4082:

We know from the Sylvari and frankly from any elder dragon that once you have fallen for it, you can’t turn back. So there is only one chance for you to resist. The fact that many haven’t resisted shows that it is hard to resist, the fact that Glint or the Tree weren’t corrupted shows that it’s possible.

But Glint WAS corrupted. Fully. In mind and body. She was purified by a ritual found by the Forgotten (unclear if they discovered it or created it).

Furthermore, Mawdrey is another such case – a corrupted seed that we purified through a large variety of oddity magics, including that of the Foefire, healing Maguuma waters, and even destroyer magic.

The Pale Tree is no doubt the same, given that she was made by Mordremoth (had to have been for the sylvari to have been made by Mordremoth).

Dragon minions CAN be purified. They CAN be broken free of corruption and the effective brainwashing that corruption instills.

But no purified dragon minion (read: Glint, Glint’s children, Pale Trees, Mawdrey, or sylvari) have shown to be corrupted again.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Yet both are powerful beings, which would explain why they were able to resist the corruption.

They didn’t resist it. They were freed from it.

Huge difference.

No being known to us ever resisted dragon corruption.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Where is it told that the white stag has anythng to do with the protection of Mordremoth?

That’s not what I said. I said the Dream is explicitly stated to be protection against Mordremoth.

Wuselknusel.4082:

He also explicitly states that he feels “a great sense of distance and loss”.
now, what do we know both about the protection the Pale Tree offers and Mordremoth’s influence? Both grow weaker over distance.

Having lost a mental connection to others is not a requirement for feeling sorrow about not knowing what your place in the world is.

Many humans feel the exact same way that Malyck describes. Real humans, not fictional.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Because like the Pale Tree has no control over it, Mordremoth hasn’t either. He is the source of the Dream, but the Pale Tree was able to “pervert” a part of it. Just like the Nightmare “perverted” a part of the Dream.

How can a world-ending entity with power over minds not have control of a mental landscape that he is the origin of?

That makes no sense.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Why should there be a difference between the sphere and the elder dragon? The sphere represents all energy of that energy type. The elder dragon is just the peak of that.

Exactly. The sphere is all of it, the Elder Dragon is just the strongest aspect within it – but not the entirety, not the sphere.

Wuselknusel.4082:

But if you’re in the middle of the Sahara with amnesia, you neither have internet, nor can you remember it.

As shown by the fact that there are sylvari tied to the Dream all the way over in Orr and Ascalon, distance – at least the distance we know of in-game – is no factor to being connected to the Dream.

Your analogy doesn’t work.

Wuselknusel.4082:

I’ll admit that if Mordremoth is the ED of Minds, that he may be able to use the Dream’s link. Wich would then leave the question why all other races are completely unaffected. Zhaitan was able to use the corpses of all races, except from Sylvari. Why does Mordremoth then seem to be weaker, evnthough it was said that he is stronger than Zhaitan?

Other races aren’t connected to the Dream. Sylvari had protection from corruption via the Dream. Mordremoth seems weaker only because he just awoke – Zhaitan had 100 years and a headstart to gain power, Mordremoth just had a headstart and 1 year to gain power.

Wuselknusel.4082:

And what is your theory then?
Why do Sylvari have a Dream, if it’s not connected to Mordremoth? How would the Pale Tree have been connected to it? Where lies its source? Why, out of all races, does only the dragon minion race have a connection to network that not only is really hard to disconnect from, but also is prone to the attacks of the very elder dragon that created them? And if the Dream is not created by Mordremoth, shouldn’t the Mordrem Guard’s memories be uploaded to the Dream of the Pale Tree? Why don’t we hear anyone speak about it?

And back to my old question, why does the Nightmare behave like corruption, when it’s said that the members of the Nightmare Court “just” want to be free of the Tablet?

In order:

1. It largely depends upon what the nature of the Dream/Nightmare is. It holds a lot of similarities with the Mists, up until we fight Mordremoth’s mind in the Dream. Part of me wants to say it’s a shard of the Mists, like the Rift, which overlaps Tyria at certain parts (such as Orr and the Maguuma Jungle). But until we have an answer on that, the “why do sylvari have it” can only be answered as “because the Pale Tree has it” because no other sylvari tree seems to have it. Only Mordremoth and the Pale Tree.
2. Again, depends on the nature of the Dream itself. But I believe its a combination of locational based as well as magical based – Mordremoth, the Pale Tree, and White Stag are all said to be highly magical beings, and all three are based both in Tyria and the Dream, and all three are located within the Maguuma Jungle. Would one lose connection to the Dream if not based in the Maguuma?
3. Once more, depends on the nature. But does it really need a source? Does the Mists have a source? Does Tyria? Does magic? No, no, no, and no.
4. You word your question trickily – yes, it’s currently seen primarily used by a dragon minion race… but not all of them. Again, Malyck doesn’t have a connection to the Dream or Nightmare. And we know of a non-dragon minion with access to the Dream: White Stag. Further, non-sylvari are capable of physically entering the Dream with the Pale Tree’s help (A Light in the Darkness) as well as mentally entering through a powerful sylvari (Hearts and Minds). So you ask your question of “why is this so” but the “this” isn’t so.
5. Because woken sylvari do not gain the memories within the Dream and the time from when mordrem guard turned to serve Mordremoth to Mordremoth’s death we never once interact with a newborn sylvari or the Pale Tree.
6. That depends upon the nature of the Nightmare as well as the nature of the Dream. But we know that Nightmare isn’t corruption – as it counters it as well.

The dreamers and the nightmare are probably based off of the Scottish Seelie and Unseelie court of good faeries and ‘bad’ faeries. Seelie would go out of their way to help lost people and do good things in return for favors and were ruled by a ‘shining throne’ The Tree Mother is a golden glowing Sylvari who is morally good by standards. Whilst the Unseelie are well, the opposite being mischievous – but aren’t always malicious. Nor are the Seelie always benevolent. The Dream and the Nightmare Court reflect this and work in similar ways.
The Nightmare court pulled away from the dream because well, put it like this — You are born and told you have this as your path you must follow it
Why do you have to follow it? There are other Sylvari who agree with me let’s diverge.-— they refused to be ‘bound’ by an idea so they found other Sylvari who had similar ideas and have ‘open arms’ to anyone who wishes to join them and only condemn those who oppose them.
What I don’t understand is that if they wish not to be ruled and only to be free, why do they have a Duchess and a ‘english’ style of court titles that do have a rank?
All in all the NC isn’t totally corruption in the idea of taint, it is a choice they make on their own it isn’t just ‘giving in’ unless they are kidnapped and forced into the changeling blossoms but that’s not necessarily the same as tainted because of an elder dragon mind controls them.

TO me the Soundless are the ones truly free not being born and shown their path from a dream nor do they hear the voice of a ‘mother’
But the fact that they don’t hear or know of a voice or dream doesn’t mean they can’t be controlled but then again maybe they can’t be controlled because of this? But I don’t think there is any evidence to support that.

Faolain has been replaced by a new Sylvari female named Duchess Chrysanthea who can be found in Dragons Stand. She helps against the fight aganst Mordremoth Sylvari aren’t meant to be controlled to the NC but are able and are willing to make alliances.
Mordremoth wants all Sylvari to become corrupted as seen with Faolain and the NC prisoner you find is scared and just wants to leave, if the NC did support Mordy I don’t think they’d be so reluctant to become Mordrem and would just bow down which they refuse to do altogether.

Not probably, definitely based off of the Seelie and Unseelie courts. It was confirmed a long time ago by Ree, back before release.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If you actually read my post you’d know that I stated that Mordremoth does not have control over them – not corruption-based control which is brainwashing. His control over the mordrem guard is a different flavor, in that he’s continuously implanting thoughts that they think are their own.

I’m beginning to see why we were able to beat mordremoth in his own mind:

he mentions "you and I are the same, we twist others to serve us. become one with me and we will be unstoppable!"

for a start, that’s why he didn’t turn trahearne into a fine paste on the walls when he suggested getting into the dream via his connection to mordremoth: he wanted us in there so we could be corrupted.

our character pointsout that we aren’t the same since he makes slaves and we make allies, but the thing is though, he’s actually RIGHT, if he just makes people think his whispers are their own thoughts, then we really are no different other than the fact that he uses telepathy to implant the thoughts (*foghorn noise*).

in fact, we may even be better at it than him: we don’t use telepathy, we use words, we don’t make them think our thoughts are their own, we actually make them change their own minds themselves, we required no magical trickery yet we have bent leaders of nations to our will without anyone realizing we’re doing it, even ourselves.

knowing that, is it a surprise that we had a stronger will in mordremoth’s mind? he manipulates by implanting thoughts, that’s why he only controls mordrem, whilst we can convince ANYONE if we try hard enough with only words.

the playing field of mordremoth’s mind was nowhere near level, it was MASSIVELY biased in our favor: his method of corruption is ineffective against us (unless you are a sylvari), whilst our "corruption" worked against him

imagine what would have happened if we’d failed though, someone as good at manipulating people as us, allied with mordremoth, we’d essentially be Scarlet 2.0

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not probably, definitely based off of the Seelie and Unseelie courts. It was confirmed a long time ago by Ree, back before release.

ah okay, i kind of got into the lore at a later time and am still catching up on alot of things.

@Calcifire: That’s an interesting analysis. Also brings up the hilarious concept that what we were actually doing is persuading some part of Mordremoth himself that he needed to die. It’d explain why he spoke up and removed all doubt that he was hiding in Trahearne if we’d implanted a suicidal urge in his mind…