Guild Wars 2

Ok, so Balthazar originally drove humans towards conflict with the races of Tyria, right?

So now that the humans have more or less been driven back and ALLIED with the other major races, I can imagine he’s not a happy camper.

There may be something to be said for humanity standing against the dragons appeasing him, but the more and more we learn about the human gods, the less I like them. The seem too…human now, like Asgardians or Olympians: as fickle as they are powerful.

I can imagine a temperamental war god becoming upset that his followers have made peace.

Thoughts?

Martacus.4085:

The seem too…human now, like Asgardians or Olympians: as fickle as they are powerful.

You must not have paid much attention, because they were always like this. They make mistakes, they kitten kitten up (hello Abaddon!), they have anger issues (Balth losing his temper when losing a board game to a mortal) and bitter rivalries of no apparent reasonings (Grenth vs Lyssa, Grenth vs Dwayna).

They’ve always seemed like powerful humans ever since Factions, if not Prophecies as well, and definitely since Nightfall.

Anyways, given how the scrolls mention Balthazar’s actions – that he thought they would be quickly defeated and it’s not the first time he’s made a mistake, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was openly okay with making peace against an enemy you can’t defeat simply because there are still more battles and wars to be one – and it wouldn’t be dishonorable. Though he might be annoyed by a long lasting peace – but hell, he loses his temper over losing a boardgame to a mortal.

Of all gods, tbh, looking deep into it, Balthazar and Grenth feel like spoiled brats to me (Balthazar’s anger issues over losing simple games, and Grenth seemingly appeasing to his mommy in order to get into the godhood circle just to have a kitten match on a yearly basis).

But then again, he’s also called the god of murder by a certain asura, though that’s not saying much in itself, given both who the asura is and that its an asura.

Speaking of which Konig, do you theorize that the gods were once humans who had taken on the divine mantle of godhood to lead their people (Rather than to have just created humans) through the mists out of world they once inhabited?

Given that the divine power can be transferred, and the Gods brought humanity through the mists, I feel this is a strong possibility.

Some yes, all… maybe.

Abaddon’s known to have had a predecessor and the statue of him in Orr looks human and looks like most concept art of Abaddon from Nightfall (which I believe is meant to be before his defeat prior to the Exodus – side note: the gw.dat says that he recreated a body for him out of the Realm of Torment during the course of Nightfall, explaining his both incomplete (head and hands only) and rather twisted-looking body). Though there’s early Nightfall lore that was released to the Asian audience (and not western audience) which says Abaddon had wings pre-fall so he might not be human.

Dwayna and Melandru are the only gods I’d say might not have been humans – if they even have predecessors. Reason being: both are depicted with wings (though Melandru only once – Grenth, too, is depicted with wings once), and while Dwayna’s the leader of the gods, Melandru’s the eldest. And as we all know: humans don’t have wings. But Balthazar, Lyssa and Dhuum are all fairly human-appearing (except Dhuum being half of a skeleton, that is). Certainly wouldn’t be surprised if those three/four were all once human.

I’d like to think the Abbadon modeled his insect like face after a mask he originally wore before getting thrown into TROT. This is because some of his concept art shows him wearing a multi-eyed metallic mask, but still having a normal human face(as apparent of his exposed mouth and chin. Of course concept art means jack, but We never really got good image of him pre-fall and the multi-eyed mask seems to be one of his defining features.

As for Dwyana, and Malandruu, It might be true that both were never human due to having extra appendages, but indeed alterations of their bodies as a result of their inherent power is another possibility. Kormir has been depicted as having horns in her current sculpted incarnation(though whether or not it’s a head piece remains unseen) which she didn’t have prior.

There is a line that was dropped in a pre-release issue – namely, that the gods predate humanity, “but not by much”. The response was annoyingly vague, though – obviously the entire pantheon doesn’t predate humanity since Grenth and Kormir ascended from Tyria.

It’s possible that the line simply meant that the gods arrived on Tyria before humans did (which we know to be fact) and brought humans over shortly after. If that’s not the case, though, it implies that gods predated the appearance of the human race, and thus the first generation of gods were certainly not ascended humans. Whether any of that generation survives is another question, but Melandru could easily be a nature spirit that grew in power to encompass being the spirit of all of nature, while Dwayna has been connected to harpies (the ones we see being former servitors of Swayna that went bad, according to Vabbian legend). Certainly, Dwayna and Melandru seem less humanocentric than the others, and compared to Balthazar specifically more concerned with achieving peace than war..

On the question of the worthiness of the gods – I’ve always felt the goddesses as a group were worthier and more mature than the male gods, although I hope that’s the result of coincidence…

Given the various rights of succession seen amongst gods, They could be referring to the Power itself as predating humanity, not it’s hosts.

Bard.7215:

This is because some of his concept art shows him wearing a multi-eyed metallic mask, but still having a normal human face(as apparent of his exposed mouth and chin. Of course concept art means jack

Except when that’s how his statue in GW2 looks. Though the concept art doesn’t show a normal mouth under the mask iirc.

Bard.7215:

Kormir has been depicted as having horns in her current sculpted incarnation(though whether or not it’s a head piece remains unseen) which she didn’t have prior.

Wait, what? I don’t know of any horns in any depiction of her. There’s the helm decorated with wings that she wore as a human in the statue from GW1 (and the Divinity’s Reach banners, and the GW2’s version of the GW1 statue of course), but the new statue of her doesn’t have horns from what I’ve seen.

Edit: Ohhh, I think I see what you mean. The GW2 statue’s concept art shows what can be mistaken for horns, but they look feathered. Probably meant to be the helm she had, but covered by long straight hair (rather than her GW1 afro).

draxynnic.3719:

There is a line that was dropped in a pre-release issue – namely, that the gods predate humanity, “but not by much”. The response was annoyingly vague, though – obviously the entire pantheon doesn’t predate humanity since Grenth and Kormir ascended from Tyria.

The line, to me, always came off as “the pantheon as a group predates humans on Tyria” – which would be true, especially given the Orrian History Scrolls which says Dwayna brought humanity shortly after she arrived on Tyria.

Horns or tiny head wings, they look like they’re a part of her, I guess my point was that deities having extra appendages doesn’t necessarily draw a line between ascended gods and gods that have always been(Assuming the concept is even part of the equation). While Dwayana is shown as the main baton passer and leader of humanity as well as the pantheon leader, this does nothing to support any claims that she has always held the power she currently possesses. It’s like Prometheus, the titan who arguably should have been the most worshiped thing according to his actions in Greek mythology, yet he was subjugated to torture and became nothing more than an afterthought in terms of the Olympians. benevolent to the fullest to humanity, yet not the center of power or human worship. Point being, benevolencey does not dictate power or status.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

There is a line that was dropped in a pre-release issue – namely, that the gods predate humanity, “but not by much”. The response was annoyingly vague, though – obviously the entire pantheon doesn’t predate humanity since Grenth and Kormir ascended from Tyria.

The line, to me, always came off as “the pantheon as a group predates humans on Tyria” – which would be true, especially given the Orrian History Scrolls which says Dwayna brought humanity shortly after she arrived on Tyria.

That line came in the context of a question along the lines of “which is older – the dragons or the gods?” – which was responded to by “The dragons have always been here, the gods are older than humanity, but not by much.”

If it’s just saying that the gods arrived on Tyria just before humanity – it IS a valid interpretation of the answer, but it makes the answer even more of a question-dodge than it already was.

Wouldn’t put it past them, though, especially since it wouldn’t surprise me if at this stage they haven’t figured out the history of humans or gods beyond “arrived on Tyria fleeing something”.

Bard.7215:

Horns or tiny head wings, they look like they’re a part of her, I guess my point was that deities having extra appendages doesn’t necessarily draw a line between ascended gods and gods that have always been(Assuming the concept is even part of the equation).

Balthazar lacks such “extra appendages” – as does Dhuum, Lyssa (both Lyss and Ilya), and the statue of Abaddon found in the temple (along with matching concept art).

Kormir we have seen as a god – here (note: although the image title is “Avatar of Kormir” the god Kormir also takes this form, which is exactly the same as human Kormir except golden) – and as you can see, she has a feather-designed helm.

Bard.7215:

Point being, benevolencey does not dictate power or status.

I don’t think Dwayna is ever said to be the leader because she’s benevolent. She’s just said to be the leader of the gods (reasons unmentioned), and no nothing requires her to have always been the leader of the gods.

Off topic: first time I noticed that however the title is censored, the link still contains the uncensored title. Funny.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but during Nightfall doesn’t the Avatar of Lyssa say that only 3 of the Gods were not Ascended? If I had to place my money on go those three were its be Lyssa, Melandru, and Dwayna.

Melandru is just Melandru and therefore is a tree with a human upper half, and in some cases wings…. Which aren’t common attributes of humans…. Lyssa is constantly described as two twins that are melded together, yet has been depicted as separate entities before, however she’s the goddess of illusion and according to Malchor he doesn’t know if he’s ever actually -seen- the goddess Lyssa or if he’s only seen what she wants him to. And then Dwayna due to all the reasons mentioned above.

PS: Abbadons predecessor was certainly not human seeing as how he was a giant spider whose corpse was one of the zones in the realm of torment…

I can’t recall Lyssa’s Muse saying anything about any god’s ascension. During GW1’s time we only knew that Grenth ursurped Dhuum and Abaddon had a predeccessor, however no name was given to that and that Balthazar has a half-brother.
Any mention of Arachnia is in the gw.dat only, which we can not count as canon, unless Anet would say so.

GW2 gives us a little more info, with Grenth being Dwayna’s son and also a demi-god at the beginning of his life. However it does say nothing abot the other god’s origins, only that they came through the Mists and arrived in Orr and that Melandru is the oldest of them.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I can’t recall Lyssa’s Muse saying anything about any god’s ascension. During GW1’s time we only knew that Grenth ursurped Dhuum and Abaddon had a predeccessor, however no name was given to that and that Balthazar has a half-brother.
Any mention of Arachnia is in the gw.dat only, which we can not count as canon, unless Anet would say so.

GW2 gives us a little more info, with Grenth being Dwayna’s son and also a demi-god at the beginning of his life. However it does say nothing abot the other god’s origins, only that they came through the Mists and arrived in Orr and that Melandru is the oldest of them.

Oh it didn’t say anything about any specific god other than abbadon, she just said something around the lines of Abbadon, like several others, ascended to god hood and wasn’t placed there naturally. Lyssa, Melandru, and Dwayna being original gods was purely speculation on my half, mostly because we KNOW 2 of them are ascendants, and then balthazar just behaves way to human for me to believe that he’s an actual god.

Well, to be fair, he is kind of supposed to be hot-headed and impetuous as the war-god. But this goes back to my original point in this thread (but more specifically) that Balthazar is, I would argue, the most human of the gods in that he displays the most of humanity’s vices. Melandru and Dwayna especially seem to transcend most human pettiness.

I guess I had forgotten that some of the gods did ascend to their positions and so didn’t really entertain the thought that Balthazar might actually have been human.

Martacus.4085:

Well, to be fair, he is kind of supposed to be hot-headed and impetuous as the war-god. But this goes back to my original point in this thread (but more specifically) that Balthazar is, I would argue, the most human of the gods in that he displays the most of humanity’s vices. Melandru and Dwayna especially seem to transcend most human pettiness.

I guess I had forgotten that some of the gods did ascend to their positions and so didn’t really entertain the thought that Balthazar might actually have been human.

I agree fully with this, even Grenth (who we ALL know was once human by now) transcends -some- human pettiness where as balthazar is like “lawlz why would i do that?”

@Konig, btw that asura refers to Balthazar as the god of MASS murder, not just murder, geez get it right xD.

Durzlla.6295:

Oh it didn’t say anything about any specific god other than abbadon, she just said something around the lines of Abbadon, like several others, ascended to god hood and wasn’t placed there naturally.

Can you find where such is said? Only place in Nightfall I ever recall Lyssa’s Muse (her avatar) saying anything to players is the Gate of Madness cinematic which says nothing of the like.

Durzlla.6295:

I agree fully with this, even Grenth (who we ALL know was once human by now) transcends -some- human pettiness where as balthazar is like “lawlz why would i do that?”

@Konig, btw that asura refers to Balthazar as the god of MASS murder, not just murder, geez get it right xD.

Grenth was half-god – never said to be human, or more acurately, half-human. We don’t know who his father was even if it’s heavily implied to be Malchor.

Also: Gixx: “So we must discover the unseen, hm? I believe the Priory has an artifact that will aid us: an idol of Balthazar, the human god of war, murder, etcetera etcetera.”

That’s the line I was going off of – I see now he later says mass murder, but here he just says murder.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Durzlla.6295:

Oh it didn’t say anything about any specific god other than abbadon, she just said something around the lines of Abbadon, like several others, ascended to god hood and wasn’t placed there naturally.

Can you find where such is said? Only place in Nightfall I ever recall Lyssa’s Muse (her avatar) saying anything to players is the Gate of Madness cinematic which says nothing of the like.

Durzlla.6295:

I agree fully with this, even Grenth (who we ALL know was once human by now) transcends -some- human pettiness where as balthazar is like “lawlz why would i do that?”

@Konig, btw that asura refers to Balthazar as the god of MASS murder, not just murder, geez get it right xD.

Grenth was half-god – never said to be human, or more acurately, half-human. We don’t know who his father was even if it’s heavily implied to be Malchor.

Also: Gixx: “So we must discover the unseen, hm? I believe the Priory has an artifact that will aid us: an idol of Balthazar, the human god of war, murder, etcetera etcetera.”

That’s the line I was going off of – I see now he later says mass murder, but here he just says murder.

Oh i know, but Mass Murder fits Balthazar a lot more than just Murder xD, can’t sell him short!!

And i’m going to have to dig through nightfall again, i think it might’ve been in .dat files tbh which as said before wasn’t canon, i think i just mixed it up with what the muse said.

The only bit about gods and ascension that I know of coming from NPCs – or, in fact, anything related to Nightfall other than possibly interviews – would be the Apostate saying that Abaddon had a predecessor. And even from non-Nightfall stuff, I can’t think of anything where it mentions three are not Ascended beings.

What I DO know in relation to the Six Gods and the number three, is that there’s three gods presented in the concept art with King Doric pleading to the gods to take back magic. And that, because of said concept art, people have long believed that only three gods were in Arah at the time (usually believed to be Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru – given Grenth’s and Lyssa’s influence in Cantha and Vabbi, respectively).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The only bit about gods and ascension that I know of coming from NPCs – or, in fact, anything related to Nightfall other than possibly interviews – would be the Apostate saying that Abaddon had a predecessor. And even from non-Nightfall stuff, I can’t think of anything where it mentions three are not Ascended beings.

What I DO know in relation to the Six Gods and the number three, is that there’s three gods presented in the concept art with King Doric pleading to the gods to take back magic. And that, because of said concept art, people have long believed that only three gods were in Arah at the time (usually believed to be Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru – given Grenth’s and Lyssa’s influence in Cantha and Vabbi, respectively).

I don’t think it was that concept art to be honest because i hadn’t seen that until today…. i do know it was in GW1 though, i don’t know where for the life of me i heard it now though… i thought it was from the muse, but that’s clearly not where…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What I DO know in relation to the Six Gods and the number three, is that there’s three gods presented in the concept art with King Doric pleading to the gods to take back magic. And that, because of said concept art, people have long believed that only three gods were in Arah at the time (usually believed to be Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru – given Grenth’s and Lyssa’s influence in Cantha and Vabbi, respectively).

Well, the spear-holding figure on the left definitely has all the womanly assets, so it’s safe to assume that’s Dwayna. I’d say that the robed guy with crossed arms in the center is Grenth, and the third on the right Balthazar. Unless it is Abaddon…

Actually, it would be a lot more dramatic if Abaddon attended Doric’s plea, as the representative of the opposing side, trying to prove his right and dissuade Doric from demanding such “nonsense.”

Just my two cents, the gods did not bring humans through the mist to Tyria as is mentioned frequently in these posts. When it is said “the gods brought humans to Tyria” they mean the continent not the planet. We know from the last of the Jotun story tellers that humans were primitive like grawl and it wasn’t until they sailed onto Tyrian shorelines (I believe from Cantha and farther south) and started settling that the gods “noticed” them.

I also belive the magnificence of Orr was not of human design but of Jotun design as the greatest of scholars along with the Norn. As the Jotun mentions, Tyria (continent) was ruled by the giants. It was only when the gods feared the advancement of the giants that they decided humans would be their new choice race that they transplanted the Jotun and other giants on the continent of Tyria with humanity and took away their magic and gave it to humans. It was then that Balthazar urged the humans to go forth and conquer in his name and make all the lands human. I believe this meaning Balthazar wanted the humans to purge the Charr.

Actually, we’re outright told the Six Gods brought humanity to the world (yes, Tyria the world not Tyria the continent). All indications actually say that humans sailed to continental Tyria (at the same time as they did to Elona).

Here is one case:

GuildMag: In the Original Guild Wars, seers were a pretty mysterious race, what can you tell us about them and what role will they play in either GWB or GW2?

Ree Soesbee: There have been a lot of questions about the Seers and their ancient war with the mursaat. Sadly, these aren’t questions we can answer at great length without giving away some very deep secrets of the Guild Wars world. I can say that they are one of the oldest races of Tyria, dating back long before the Gods brought the humans to the world; to the time of the writing of the Tome of Rubicon. In those ancient days, the Seers fought against the mursaat, but they were in turn defeated by their enemies, and their civilization lost to the ravages of time.

http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-issue-1-qa-with-ree-soesbee

Thruln the Lost’s story outright contradicts the developers, so it’s clear that he’s the one who’s wrong. His statement that humans arrived like grawl is wrong, and his statement that the gods didn’t notice them until they built kingdoms is also wrong, since the gods noticed them millenia before. At best, the gods just didn’t realize immediately that humans sailed to continental Tyria at the time. But besides this, the jotun’s strongest attribute that they’re said to always have had is pride – and this pride prevents them from worshiping anything but themselves or their lineage. (source) These two simple facts lead everything Thruln the Lost says into doubt. Even the line that magic was chaotic before the Elder Dragons last rose is called into question – how can something so chaotic be mastered by at least four powerful races (jotun, mursaat, seer, and forgotten)?

Regarding Orr, actually yes it is human design – to quote the Kingdom of Orr book found in Orr: “Orr’s proximity to the gods influence their architecture.” – the reason why it’s so magestic is because it was modeled after Arah, which was built by the gods themselves. Though there’s indications that the forgotten had built the foundations unless the Six Gods were building it while the Elder Dragons were last awake – the place where the forgotten freed Glint is called “The Altar of Glaust” and though I haven’t seen it myself, it is something that is said by the scholar researching the forgotten was there during the last ED fight, saying Glint (formerly called Glaust) was freed by the forgotten in Arah at the altar.

Besides, Orrian architecture looks nothing like jotun architecture.

If I had to guess about Thruln the Lost’s story, it’s the result of a people who have largely abandoned civilization trying to make sense of a history that has been passed down orally.

If I recall correctly, and I’m sure Konig will jump in here, the Jotun would have had magic until it was sealed in the Bloodstone to protect it from the Elder Dragons. This may now be interpreted as the Six ‘abandoning’ them, and could be coincident with the arrival of humans in the Jotun lands – prompting something along the lines of “We’ve lost the magic! The gods have abandoned us! …It’s their fault!”

We actually see jotun magic-users in Eye of the North, although they probably have less magic then than humans do (and no elemental magic, which is interesting when you consider that Thruln the Lost dismisses elemental magic as primitive). One could argue whether the mechanics actually match the lore there, but it could be that the loss of jotun magic was a slow decline that only reached conclusion in the last couple of centuries. Thruln the lost himself says that he’s the last Thruln, which further implies the jotun decline is a slow one that still has some time to go before hitting rock bottom – with the next step being the loss of all of their oral history apart from what they can glean from artifacts of the past like the stone in one of the Norn storylines that contains the spirit of a Thruln from when the fall of the jotun began.

Magic was sealed in the Bloodstone at the time the dragons were last active – and it seems that there was in fact some magic that was missed (or appeared since) as the asura at least had magic before Abaddon unlocked the Bloodstone.

The impression I get from Thruln the Lost’s story is that the jotun oral history has been corrupted by generations of jotun clan leaders who just didn’t want to hear that it was the fault of their ancestors that the jotun lost their former glory, and that they themselves are propagating the same errors that lead to the collapse of jotun supremacy. As a result, it’s likely that thrulns that told it how it was experienced dramatically shortened life expectancy, and were ‘encouraged’ to find someone or something else to blame for the jotun fall – and with humans being dominant for a thousand years, the claim that humans only got there by receiving jotun aid and then stabbing them in the back makes for a good salve to the egos of jotun chieftains.

Kormir: “Gods, we beseech you. Hear our prayers.”
<player name>: “We have come where living men should not be. We have fought armies, crossed wastelands and conquered demons.”
<player name>: “Now we are in the heart of Torment. We must destroy Abaddon before he destroys the world. But we cannot battle him alone.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “You are not alone. The gods are always watching.”
Kormir: “Watching? We need your help. We are only mortals, and we challenge a god.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “The divinity is within you. And so, we give you our blessing. That should suffice for the task ahead.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “And to you, Kormir, a most special gift.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make.”
Kormir: “Our decision? They leave us some words of encouragement and expect us to fight a god?”
<player name>: “The gods said we have a choice. A choice that only a mortal could make.”
Kormir: “Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don’t have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go.”

Lyssa’s muse never said that the gods ascended, only that they walked Tyria. WHich they did prior to the event know as Exodus. I thought this was common knowledge.

Thalador.4218:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What I DO know in relation to the Six Gods and the number three, is that there’s three gods presented in the concept art with King Doric pleading to the gods to take back magic. And that, because of said concept art, people have long believed that only three gods were in Arah at the time (usually believed to be Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru – given Grenth’s and Lyssa’s influence in Cantha and Vabbi, respectively).

Well, the spear-holding figure on the left definitely has all the womanly assets, so it’s safe to assume that’s Dwayna. I’d say that the robed guy with crossed arms in the center is Grenth, and the third on the right Balthazar. Unless it is Abaddon…

Actually, it would be a lot more dramatic if Abaddon attended Doric’s plea, as the representative of the opposing side, trying to prove his right and dissuade Doric from demanding such “nonsense.”

Its possible that only Abaddon and two others attended Doric’s plea because Abaddon fought and struck down two gods at once before his defeat. However, the time between when he defeated the two gods and when he was smote by the other three or all five cannot be determined. There was supposed to be a big war. Maybe the concept art isn’t canon, who knows. Maybe he struck down the other two at Doric’s plea and then fought the war with the other three (or united five). Or all five attended, Abaddon got mad and left, then the war, he fight two gods in battle, get defeated later.

What can be established is that at the time of Doric’s plea, all six gods walked Tyria. This was 1 BE.

Son of Elias.5420:

If I had to guess about Thruln the Lost’s story, it’s the result of a people who have largely abandoned civilization trying to make sense of a history that has been passed down orally.

That’s pretty much my interpretation. Minus the “trying to make sense” part. But history passed down by oral tradition often leads to changes – be it intentionally (glorification) or accidentally (memory is an unreliable thing).

draxynnic.3719:

We actually see jotun magic-users in Eye of the North, although they probably have less magic then than humans do (and no elemental magic, which is interesting when you consider that Thruln the Lost dismisses elemental magic as primitive). One could argue whether the mechanics actually match the lore there, but it could be that the loss of jotun magic was a slow decline that only reached conclusion in the last couple of centuries.

Ahem

“Jotun organize themselves into large tribes, related by blood or union, led by the strongest. This strength may come from arms, or magic, or any other ability—but it is always shown through physicality and brute force.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Savage_Pride_of_the_Jotun

It’s pretty obvious that some magic users and lore tellers survive – Thruln is a show of this in game, and I think there’s a jotun in an event which uses magic too. It’s just that it is very very rare and in a decline.

But they were fallen by GW1’s time, according to NPCs in GW2.

draxynnic.3719:

Magic was sealed in the Bloodstone at the time the dragons were last active – and it seems that there was in fact some magic that was missed (or appeared since) as the asura at least had magic before Abaddon unlocked the Bloodstone.

Or, alternatively, magic continues to grow in the world. Which would explain how magic would still be around if the Elder Dragons had devoured it all in past risings (sans the latest one before current).

“I’m pursuing that line of inquiry now. In jotun stelae writings, we’ve found references to a sextet of “swallowers” who are said to have consumed the world several times over. "

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Caterin

If the dragons have consumed the world several times over, it’s fair reason that they had consumed most of – if not all – magic in the world. They could not do this multiple times.

Magic has to be coming from somewhere. And it may be that there was magic in the world before Abaddon’s actions. That is, magic not contained in the Bloodstone and not exuded from the Elder Dragons at the time Abaddon released magic from said Bloodstone.

Gregorius.1024:

Lyssa’s muse never said that the gods ascended, only that they walked Tyria. WHich they did prior to the event know as Exodus. I thought this was common knowledge.

Your point? We know Kormir and Abaddon ascended. And we know Grenth ascended too, even though originally a half-god, as he replaced Dhuum. Who are you responding to here, anyways?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Apostate
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Four_Horsemen

Gregorius.1024:

Its possible that only Abaddon and two others attended Doric’s plea because Abaddon fought and struck down two gods at once before his defeat.

Erm, not quite.

“Abbadon was so powerful, even two gods together could not stop him.”

http://www.guildwiki.org/Talk:Abaddon/Archive_1#Background_story_on_Abbadon

It was never actually said Abaddon did defeat two gods, just that he could.

@Konig, the Lyssa’s Muse part was in response to a number of people saying that there might’ve only been 3 gods in Arah at the time of Doric’s plea. I know that Grenth, Kormir, and Abaddon ascended, I was saying that the pantheon’s been there long before Exodus and certainly there at the time of Doric’s plea. It’s also possible that Balthazaar took his position from his father unless he was born into his current position.

Also, I don’t know why I kept writing that Abaddon actually struck down two gods lol. I always knew he was capable but I thought I read it in my research yesterday.

I see, in which case you are mistaking in which what was being talked about. Three gods in Arah at the time – not three gods in existence at the time. In other words: three gods were somewhere else when Doric made his plead.