How common would dragon whelps be?

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Posted by: WereDragon.6083

WereDragon.6083

Hey all, quite a curious question here. Basically, my Human Necromancer has the Mini Tequatle pet and in character I want to spin it as a found, dying dragon whelp that he put out of it’s misery and then resurrected with the same soul as an undead.

Now 99.9% of my RP backround comes from Dungeons and Dragons, where this could easily be a common occurrence. Dragon’s are plentiful in the D&D universe and in turn, eggs and whelps are as well. Gw2 not so much.

So is it too far fetched for my character to have found a dying dragon whelp and saved/undead (ed?) it. Glint is an example of a dragon who has no affiliation to the Elders, though she is an extremely special case. Are there any species that happen to highly resemble dragons, just not quite, be them if it turns out this is too lore broken?

All in all i’m trying to stick to lore as tight as possible, without being completely random and or Mary-Sue’ish. So any thoughts on this subject?

What do we say to the god of death? Not Today….
Eleshod|80 Thief|Tarnished Coast
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Posted by: FlamingFoxx.1305

FlamingFoxx.1305

In present day Tyria it might be a bit of a stretch – but the abundance of Bone Dragons in GW1 suggests that it might have been feasible at some point in the past (as in, dragons – of the lesser kind – could once have been far more commonplace in Tyria than they have been within the last 250 years).

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Posted by: WereDragon.6083

WereDragon.6083

In present day Tyria it might be a bit of a stretch – but the abundance of Bone Dragons in GW1 suggests that it might have been feasible at some point in the past (as in, dragons – of the lesser kind – could once have been far more commonplace in Tyria than they have been within the last 250 years).

Hm, would reanimated dragon bones be a bit more common. It was basically going to be one of the first things he reanimated as a serious Necromancer and he holds a special bit of affection for his first creation ((Which is the excuse for it being non-combat))

What do we say to the god of death? Not Today….
Eleshod|80 Thief|Tarnished Coast
Malsavias|80 Necromancer| Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

As far as we know, dragons are not natural creatures, but corrupted non-dragon’s shifted into a new form akin to Mouth of Zhaitan and other bizarre minions.

There are hints, via Glint, Cantha, and the Bone Dragons, but nothing truly substantial.

So the likelihood of dragon whelps existing? None given stated lore. But it is not impossible. Not something that I would RP, however, as lore exists for what (almost all) miniatures are: magical toys. Only exception I can think of is the Black Moa Chick from gw1, which was an actual animal. The spring animal babies may be the same.

As to the idea of reanimated dragon bones, also unlikely if not impossible, especially for that size as even our best hint at a dragon baby (Glint’s ‘child’ which may or may not have been merely a dragon-shaped made dragon minion) is bloody huge (about as tall as a norn from forehead to ground when on all fours, if memory serves me right).

But it could be a dragon-shaped necromancer minions ala how the Bone Fiend is devourer-shaped. I’ve seen someone do that, and I’ve used a mini Orrian Chick as such.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

While most dragon champions we have encountered are not dragons, Edge of Destiny does refer to the Elder Dragons as ‘True Dragons’. And Glint is referred to as ‘another dragon’. Albeit a ‘lesser dragon’.

But while it may be possible to stumble across a dragon whelp (because they must reproduce in some way), real dragons are extremely rare in Tyria and as Konig has said, may not even be that small.

I’d go with Konig and have it a dragon shaped minion, in this case. Possibly a necromancers attempt at ultimate power by trying to create a dragon using the tools at his disposal.

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Posted by: Thalador.4218

Thalador.4218

Shiny says hello to y’all.

However, he’s a Saltspray Dragon baby which are all but native to Cantha. It still remains a mystery what the Bone Dragons were in life and why they joined Khilbron’s Orrian undead forces in the first place — they might’ve come from Orr, or they were the proto-Tequatl-class dragon minions during the last rise and were woken from their tombs in the Cataclysm.

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Posted by: Danikat.8537

Danikat.8537

There are several kinds of dragons in Tyria, the Elder Dragons are simply the most well known example at the moment. Others include dragon shaped ED champions like Glint and Tequatl, the Canthan Salt Spray Dragons and the Bone Dragons in GW1.

But they’re all huge, even the few babies we’ve seen (like Glint’s offspring and Shiny the baby Saltspray dragon) are bigger than a human when they first hatch.

I think it would make more sense for the mini to be your necromancers first attempt at building a DIY mini from parts and they chose to make it dragon shaped.

Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).

“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”

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Posted by: Yumiko Ishida.3769

Yumiko Ishida.3769

Drakes are a lesser dragon as GW 1 put it.

Yumiko Emi Ishida 80 Ele, Hikari Kyoko Ishida 80 Guard TC-NA. Active RPer of NA megaserver.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

@Thalador: Shiny isn’t Tequatl shaped at all, thus irrelevant. Also, Shiny’s larger than the miniature in question. Also, I mentioned Shiny.

As for “what the Bone Dragons were in life” question, I found an oooooold article from 2004 about GW1 lore, specifically the undead army (there was another I found on the charr army, and another on Sorrow’s Furnace).

Link

And what it says about Bone Dragons?

“Of course, any evaluation of the undead army would be incomplete without an account of the “Big Bad”—the bone dragon. In death, this beast is more than five times the height of a man—over thirty feet long. When it was raised from the grave, its powerful front claws pulled its tremendous girth out of the soil with such force that it tore its own body in half. In unlife, it drags itself across the ground, spitting putrescence and ravaging all who dare get within reach."

The fact it was raised from the grave means its no construct; and given that we’re seeing only the “top” half of it, and given the shape we see, it was likely the shape of a dragon looking like Glint.

It isn’t much, but it’s more than we get from in the games.

@Yumiko Ishida: That’s purely mechanical, and not lore-based at all.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Aro.8275

Aro.8275

With what Konig said, perhaps spin it as:
You found a stash of semi preserved dragon eggs withing the lower half of the Bone Dragon / Rotscale’s original ritual site. Attempted a resurrection which ended.. poorly. Using what parts were still in respectable condition a minion was animated.

Unfortunately due to the infantile nature and rough process its main value combat wise is getting entangled within your feet to trip you while seeking attention or play time (yeah, it’s totally a cat). Most don’t bother you on this feat due to the difficulty involved or they are too busy getting it to chase a magically floating bat on a string.

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Posted by: BrettM.9062

BrettM.9062

As far as we know, dragons are not natural creatures, but corrupted non-dragon’s shifted into a new form akin to Mouth of Zhaitan and other bizarre minions.

I’m not so sure of that. The impression I’ve always had, particularly from Edge of Destiny, is that dragons may have once been the dominant life forms of Tyria. Perhaps the original dominant races were draconic, but most were either corrupted or destroyed when the Elders first manifested.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

As far as we know, dragons are not natural creatures, but corrupted non-dragon’s shifted into a new form akin to Mouth of Zhaitan and other bizarre minions.

I’m not so sure of that. The impression I’ve always had, particularly from Edge of Destiny, is that dragons may have once been the dominant life forms of Tyria. Perhaps the original dominant races were draconic, but most were either corrupted or destroyed when the Elders first manifested.

I was speaking of the dragon champions we see in GW2. The Shatterer, Shadow of the Dragon, and Claw of Jormag are very clearly constructs, and Tequatl and co. can easily be created in a similar fashion to risen abominations.

But there’s no absolute proof on the later, hence the “as far as we know”.

Glint’s line from Edge of Destiny is in reference to the Elder Dragons dominating the world, not so much a dragon race. It’s a fine point to make, but in GW2 the terms “dragons” and “Elder Dragons/dragon minions” are pretty much interchangeably used, though they mean two very different things. Similar to how we see undead, Orrian, and risen used interchangeably, despite the fact there’s a very big difference between the three on a literal scale. This use of improper interchangeable uses is just to show the viewpoint of Tyrians.

What meaning Glint’s line about a world dominated by dragons has, isn’t very clear. But the dragons we see in modern day hold no evidence to having been actual dragons pre-corruption.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

the dragons we see in modern day hold no evidence to having been actual dragons pre-corruption.

What would the Elder Dragons have been corrupted by though? They are the corrupting force. In Destiny’s edge the Elder Dragon’s are called “True Dragons” in contrast to “the mortal champions” that they had previously fought. And when specifically talking about Glint, she is described as “another Dragon – a lesser dragon”.

This seems to say that there are actual dragons in tyria. Not just something that is corrupted into a form of a dragon without actually being a dragon.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Who said the Elder Dragons were corrupted?

When talking about dragons in this thread’s context, we’re talking about a race of flying reptiles, aka traditional dragons, rather than eldritch abominations that happen to have a similar shape to dragons and are not at all like traditional dragons.

I’ll have to re-read Edge of Destiny, but I think the point of calling the Elder Dragons “true dragons” is to point out the difference between their shape and dragon champions’ shape. Recall that though four dragon champions are fought and called such, only Glint was actually dragon shaped – and she was called, as you pointed out, “another dragon – a lesser dragon”.

It does hint to there being “actual dragons” but it can also just be a differentiating between non-dragon-shaped dragon champions, and dragon-shaped entities (Elder Dragons and dragon-shaped dragon champions ala Tequatl, Claw, Glint, Shadow).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

It doesn’t just hint at actual dragons. It pretty much confirms it. The only thing that supports the theory of there not being actual dragons in the world is that a lot of the dragon champions are either constructs or corrupted beings. That’s it.

The term “True Dragon” appears on pages 318 and 338. The context had nothing to do with their shape since it was never an issue. I can’t see why the shape would matter if there was no real difference anyway.

In other fantasy universe, including D&D which the OP mentionsand I think we should gage this threads context by, powerful dragons (old and real dragons) are also presented as primeval semi-elemental forces. The Elder Dragons are traditional dragons. Glint is a traditional dragon.

edit: In D&D a true dragon is a creature with reptilian features that gets more powerful as it gets more ancient. This is opposed to other dragon-like creature that don’t get as powerful as a true dragon can. Examples being a wyverns and drakes. Elder Dragons of tyria greatly resemble D&D’s most powerful dragons, the elder wyrm. They are the eldest aged dragons and the biggest category a monster can get.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I would argue it does indeed count to appearance, since the term “dragon champion” had been used throughout the book but describes non-dragons.

By what I see, it’s basically saying that Glint is a “true dragon,” in that she’s a dragon unlike the four previous champions that were all called “dragon champions,” but she’s a lesser dragon than the Elder Dragons.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Right, ‘Dragon champion’ describes any champion of the elder dragons. I agree with this last post. Maybe I misunderstood you before. It seemed like you were saying that there were no actual dragons in Tyria? that all creatures referred to as dragons weren’t actually dragons but were only “dragon shaped”.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I was saying that that, as a race of non-corrupted/corrupting beings that reproduces naturally and potentially had civilization (be it primitive or advanced), we have no cold hard evidence of such existing. E.g., there are no traditional dragons confirmed. There is implications of it, but nothing certain. This, of course, is excluding the Canthan dragons for sake of argument as I refer to a race of European-styled dragons, and not turtle dragons or the serpentine Saltspray Dragons. Said implications come from three sources: Bone Dragons, Glint’s history (dialogue indicates that she was once a non-corrupted being), and Glint’s offspring (dragon minions cannot reproduce unless pregnant when corrupted going off of all known lore; dragon champions however are capable of creating dragon minion constructs, even minions that would be champions; it is unclear which situation lies with Glint and her children but if the former that would imply that there was a reproducing race of European-styled dragons).

However, there are entities referred to as “dragons” and that would be creatures of a particular shape – the shape one would connect to traditional European dragons. This includes the Elder Dragons and certain champions such as Glint, Tequatl the Sunless, Claw of Jormag, Shadow of the Dragon, The Shatterer, etc.

My point in the last two posts is that when using the phrase “true dragon,” EoD seems to be (ergo, my interpretation) referring to the latter situation (creatures that have the (rough) shape of traditional european dragons) rather than the former (creatures that are an actual race).

Throughout all of GW2, when the term “dragon” is used, it is used in reference to Elder Dragons and their dragon-shaped champions (Glint, Claw of Jormag, etc.), and never as an actual race – at least, such is never specified or made in any way clear that it is being used in a means other than “Elder Dragons and their dragon-shaped champions”.

When I said “actual dragons,” I was referring to the former: a race of flying reptiles that are called dragons, excluding the Saltspray Dragons and other Canthan potential-but-named-“dragons”.

TL;DR
Yes, I was indeed saying that – based on all concrete lore we have – the creatures referred to as dragons are, indeed, not living, breathing, dragons. Most cases we see of such, they are constructs of ice, plant, stone, lighting, fire, and/or undead flesh. Though Glint and Zhaitan’s dragons and possibly even the Elder Dragons may have been one once, we don’t have definitive proof of that – the line from EoD can be taken two ways still.

There’s nothing saying that they don’t exist, but nothing points definitively that they do.

I will close with this:

It is of my personal theory that there was a race of dragons – flesh and blood – that Glint, Bone Dragons, and perhaps more stem from. Whether the Elder Dragons also stem from them, I theorize it could go either way, but would certainly hold no doubt to it being such.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

I’d question your definition of “living, breathing dragon”. Kralk takes his first breath in millennia. Glint was described as a mass of muscle and scale. Glint tore into Kralk’s muscles and ripped off scales with her claws and Glint had her lungs punctured.

You may be right, if we can pin down a definition of what you think a true dragon is in the GW universe. Though, it seems to me that as in other fantasy universes, dragons are flesh and blood along with being quasi-elemental forces. And the older and more powerful they get, the more elemental they are. As the book describes Kralk through Glint’s eyes as being more magic than sinew. Though, this may not be exclusive to just dragons. The playable races are described by Oola as being beings that “embody magic”, and Issomir’s body is a place of power because it’s magic lingers as well as it’s body.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Glint is outright stated to be crystalline, as well, however.

Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten

Regarding Kralkatorrik – and the other Elder Dragons – their state of being is questionable as their existence is, thus far, fully unique.

As for “a definition”. Well, not eldritch abominations that the Elder Dragons are continuously described as being. Not ancient unknowable beings of ultimate destruction and consumption. But something more akin to how they are in traditional fantasy settings – not exactly, but close. If the Bone Dragons were not undead, then that. If Glint was not crystalline, and had a race that she was part of, then that.

When I say “a race of dragons” – I mean an entire species that are dragons – and not crystal/plant/ice/fire/stone/lightning/water/whatever-else-there-may-be constructs created in the shape of a dragon.

The Elder Dragons are, thus far, just six. This is not a species. It would be akin to saying that the gods are a race. We do not know their origins either – they could be unique creations, constructs in their own right, for all we know. Or, they may be the last and strongest survivors of the dragon race.

As you said, the Elder Dragons are described as “more magical than physical” – which indicates that they may never have been actually scale and blood. Nothing indicates that they were ever “more physical than magical” as you are hypothesizing by relating them to a specific genre of fantasy dragons (not all such fantasy dragons have dragons becoming more elemental as they become older).

There exists too many unknowns, but the Elder Dragons alone we cannot call a race of dragons. Their champions, dragon shape or not, we also cannot call a race of dragons – at best, they are the corrupted remains of a race of dragons (what Glint is hinted to be).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Glint is outright stated to be crystalline, as well, however.

Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten

Right. She is crysatlline on the outside but flesh and blood inside just like the ED’s are on the inside. D&D has brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver dragons. All falling under the “true dragon” category.

Regarding Kralkatorrik – and the other Elder Dragons – their state of being is questionable as their existence is, thus far, fully unique.

As for “a definition”. Well, not eldritch abominations that the Elder Dragons are continuously described as being. Not ancient unknowable beings of ultimate destruction and consumption. But something more akin to how they are in traditional fantasy settings – not exactly, but close. If the Bone Dragons were not undead, then that. If Glint was not crystalline, and had a race that she was part of, then that.

The ED’s resemble the most powerful and ancient dragons of other fantasy genres including Warhammer and D&D. that seems pretty traditional. Glint is flesh and blood with crystalline scales. D&D had jeweled dragons.

When I say “a race of dragons” – I mean an entire species that are _dragons_+ – and not crystal/plant/ice/fire/stone/lightning/water/whatever-else-there-may-be constructs created in the shape of a dragon.

They have flesh and blood so they aren’t just a construct in the shape of a dragon. And they are referred to as “true dragons”.

The Elder Dragons are, thus far, just six. This is not a species. It would be akin to saying that the gods are a race. We do not know their origins either – they could be unique creations, constructs in their own right, for all we know. Or, they may be the last and strongest survivors of the dragon race.

Or they may be the most powerful of the dragon species. Seperating them from other confirmed dragons like Glint could be akin to seperating dire wolves from wolves. The gods may well be a species along with the Spirits of the Wild. Or the gods and Spirits of the wild may be more similar than different as the norn believe.

As you said, the Elder Dragons are described as “more magical than physical” – which indicates that they may never have been actually scale and blood. Nothing indicates that they were ever “more physical than magical” as you are hypothesizing by relating them to a specific genre of fantasy dragons (not all such fantasy dragons have dragons becoming more elemental as they become older).

Not all fantasy genres do much of anything. but enough of the biggest and most popular ones do it to make ED’s traditional fantasy genre dragons. The OP specifically mentions his background in D&D. And ED’s are confirmed to already have flesh and blood and scales.

There exists too many unknowns, but the Elder Dragons alone we cannot call a race of dragons. Their champions, dragon shape or not, we also cannot call a race of dragons – at best, they are the corrupted remains of a race of dragons (what Glint is hinted to be).

When a dragon is referred to as a “true dragon” indicating that they are separate from other dragon type beings, I think we can refer to them as a race. But again, you may be right. You would however need to define what a dragon is. So far you’ve just given some qualities of the ED’s and say not those. Then go on to say “traditional” fantasy dragons. But ED’s greatly resemble traditional fantasy dragons. What is it about your idea of what a traditional fantasy dragon is that disqualifies them? The ED’s and the other confirmed dragon Glint are all living, breathing, flesh and blood creatures. And we have no idea if the ED’s have ever been corrupted by anything since they are the ones corrupting. So we couldn’t rightly say that ED’s are corrupted remains of any dragon race.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

We have no implication of any sort that the elder dragons are able to breed. Without that, I’m unwilling to call them a proper species. And even then – Dwayna gave birth to Grenth, and Balthazar has family relations, and as far as we know, the human gods are ascended beings rather than a single all-powerful species.

Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

We have no implication of any sort that the elder dragons are able to breed. Without that, I’m unwilling to call them a proper species. And even then – Dwayna gave birth to Grenth, and Balthazar has family relations, and as far as we know, the human gods are ascended beings rather than a single all-powerful species.

I wouldn’t call the ED’s a species in and of themselves. especially if they just happen to be the oldest and most powerful of their kind. I’d call dragons a species. If the true dragons can all be lumped together as EoD states, then the ED’s may simply be too old to breed anymore.

Also, in fantasy settings, I don’t think being turned into something else excludes you from being a species. We know Melandru turned some humans into plant beings. if they could propogate their new kind, they wouldn’t be the human species anymore. They would have been something knew. Keep in mind the term species doesn’t include an origin of the species in it’s definition since scientific opinion is that we all started from one kind of organism anyway.

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Posted by: WereDragon.6083

WereDragon.6083

Wow this topic blew up. And a TON of interesting information. I am pondering the simple, amalgamation route for his first minion. Since most minions are flesh-stitched and not actually re-animated. I noticed a post, higher up mention a good hook for it, where my Necromancer is attempting to re-create true power, the Elder Dragons being a symbol for that… It also fits really well since he is obsessed with creating the most powerful minion he can, constantly studying other races anatomy for strengths and weaknesses. So a failed, flesh-stitched dragon which he has a slight attachment too, or perhaps what started him on this little quest of his might fall into place REALLY well.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Right. She is crysatlline on the outside but flesh and blood inside just like the ED’s are on the inside. D&D has brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver dragons. All falling under the “true dragon” category.

Given her appearance and the fact she’s a dragon minion, it’s more likely that it’s the opposite.

If you look at the Branded, you can see that their insides are crystal, but they still have skin (grayed though it may be). If one looks at concept art for branded, then the only thing that were not changed was skin and bone – muscle, blood, sinew all changed to cyrstal, and hair disappeared (fell out, most likely).

In GW1, and in the concept art used in Sorrow’s Embrace, Glint has scales (skin), with crystals jutting out.

The ED’s resemble the most powerful and ancient dragons of other fantasy genres including Warhammer and D&D. that seems pretty traditional. Glint is flesh and blood with crystalline scales. D&D had jeweled dragons.

Fun fact: ArenaNet has, on a multitude of occasions, stated that they want their lore to deviate from “traditional fantasy” – so I would not use such to compare to GW lore. They used this as their explanation for turning dwarves to stone, and in their earliest explanations of the Elder Dragons.

I, myself, have to admit I never played Warhammer or D&D, so I cannot compare between the two.

They have flesh and blood so they aren’t just a construct in the shape of a dragon. And they are referred to as “true dragons”.

Yet when we see it, an Elder Dragon’s blood is crystal (Kralkatorrik) and ice (Jormag), or green goo-like substance (Zhaitan). So can we really be sure that they bleed blood?

We know Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth have scales (Mordremoth at least does in the one appropriate concept art), but that’s really all we have aside from Zhaitan’s body. Which is of… questionable state – he either looks undead, or is undead.

I originally thought the former, but the more I look at the animations when his tails are cut, or when his arm falls off, it looks more like he’s a rotten corpse that’s tied together only by magic – magic which is disrupted by those electric-like hooks that caused his arm that wasn’t even struck to just stretch and fall off like a zombie from The Walking Dead.

And if Zhaitan really is undead… maybe Jormag really is ice? Maybe the reason why Kralkatorrik is “more magical than physical” is because he’s more akin to an elemental that’s shaped like a dragon, than a dragon with elemental properties.

You speak with such asboluteness about the Elder Dragons’ bodies… but what proof do we have about them? We have nothing on Jormag or the DSD, so little on Mordremoth and Primordus, and a questionable amount on Kralkatorrik.

Or they may be the most powerful of the dragon species. Seperating them from other confirmed dragons like Glint could be akin to seperating dire wolves from wolves. The gods may well be a species along with the Spirits of the Wild. Or the gods and Spirits of the wild may be more similar than different as the norn believe.

Maybe. Maybe not.

It’s a nice conjecture – one I don’t disagree with – but that’s all it is. Hence it remains that we have no definitive proof of a dragon race.

And ED’s are confirmed to already have flesh and blood and scales.

Where.

Kralkatorrik’s “blood” is CRYSTALS for crying out loud. Jormag’s “blood” is ICE. That is not flesh and blood.

But I do not recall any mention of Glint or Kralkatorrik or Primordus or Jormag having muscles and sinew and bone and whatever else makes up a reptilian body. We have scales, we have claws, but all else we have is elements.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

When a dragon is referred to as a “true dragon” indicating that they are separate from other dragon type beings, I think we can refer to them as a race. But again, you may be right. You would however need to define what a dragon is. So far you’ve just given some qualities of the ED’s and say not those. Then go on to say “traditional” fantasy dragons. But ED’s greatly resemble traditional fantasy dragons. What is it about your idea of what a traditional fantasy dragon is that disqualifies them?

When I say traditional fantasy, I do not mean D&D and Warhammer – things I know nothing of. I mean things like Lord of the Wings, Dragonheart, the original Norse myths that almost all fantasy dragons derive from. And in those, they’re just fire-breathing (sometimes ice or lightning), flying, quadpedal reptiles.

Something that is just D&D and Warhammer is not “traditional fantasy” – it’s D&D and Warhammer. Lord of the Rings is something far more traditional in the fantasy world than D&D is.

The ED’s and the other confirmed dragon Glint are all living, breathing, flesh and blood creatures.

Glint is not flesh and blood, despite your continuous claims. Why? Because she’s a dragon minion, and the only dragon minion that have flesh and blood are risen (and Mordrem, if you include plants amongst the flesh and blood).

I wouldn’t call the ED’s a species in and of themselves.

Funny you say this, because:

When I say “a race of dragons” – I mean an entire species that are dragons

But yet:

When a dragon is referred to as a “true dragon” indicating that they are separate from other dragon type beings, I think we can refer to them as a race. But again, you may be right. You would however need to define what a dragon is. So far you’ve just given some qualities of the ED’s and say not those.

My qualities I give are “a species”. Yet you say you agree that the Elder Dragons are not a species. Yet you also say that they’re a race, and that all qualities I give for what makes a dragon, the Elder Dragons have.

You’re being contradictory.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

How common would dragon whelps be?

in Lore

Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Given her appearance and the fact she’s a dragon minion, it’s more likely that it’s the opposite.

If you look at the //ost likely).

In GW1, and in the concept art used in Sorrow’s Embrace, Glint has scales (skin), with crystals jutting out.

More evidence of how she differs from regular minions. Have you read the book? It specifically describes her crytaline spikes and scales outside and references her flesh inside. It describes how a turned minions muscles became crystal and his bones became stone. Glint is different. Glint is flesh an the inside. If you haven’t read the book I can answer any questions and provide page numbers for when you get it. I like to jot down the page of interesting lore as I read through.

Fun fact: ArenaNet has, on a multitude of occasions, stated that they want their lore to deviate from “traditional fantasy” – so I would not use such to compare to GW lore. They used this as their explanation for turning dwarves to stone, and in their earliest explanations of the Elder Dragons.

I, myself, have to admit I never played Warhammer or D&D, so I cannot compare between the two.

You stated earlier that “When talking about dragons in this thread’s context, we’re talking about a race of flying reptiles, aka traditional dragons.” This threads context referenced D&D. if you wanted to stay within the context of this thread, then using their dragons would have been beneficial. taking dragons from some other fantasy universe that is not within this threads context only breeds confusion.

Yet when we see it, an Elder Dragon’s blood is crystal (Kralkatorrik) and ice (Jormag), or //see him bleed. So his blood solidifies in to ctystals.

if there is a question about if their blood is really blood, we can’t really be sure it isn’t. But we do know it is his blood is called ‘blood’ and it’s coming from his torn flesh.

We know Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth have scales (Mordremoth at least does in the one appropriate concept art), but that’s really all we have aside from Zhaitan’s body. Which is of… questionable state – he either looks undead, or is undead.

I originally//is disrupted by those electric-like hooks that caused his arm that wasn’t even struck to just stretch and fall off like a zombie from The Walking Dead.

And if Zhaitan really is undead… maybe Jormag really is ice? Maybe the reason why Kralkatorrik is “more magical than physical” is because he’s more akin to an elemental that’s shaped like a dragon, than a dragon with elemental properties

kralk is confirmed to have flesh and blood.

You speak with such asboluteness about the Elder Dragons’ bodies… but what proof do we have about them? We have nothing on Jormag or the DSD, so little on Mordremoth and Primordus, and a questionable amount on Kralkatorrik.

The only question about Kralk is is we cover out ears and sing. he is confirmed to have flesh and blood. So we know,at least he isn’t some dragon shaped construction as you claimed.

Maybe. Maybe not.

It’s a nice conjecture – one I don’t disagree with – but that’s all it is. Hence it remains that we have no definitive proof of a dragon race.

I’m all about lore conjecture. But we can’t get very far if we ignore confirmed lore.

Where.

Kralkatorrik’s “blood” is CRYSTALS for crying out loud. Jormag’s “blood” is ICE. That is not flesh and blood.

But I do not recall any mention of Glint or Kralkatorrik or Primordus or Jormag having muscles and sinew and bone and whatever else makes up a reptilian body. We have scales, we have claws, but all else we have is elements.

I really suspect you haven’t read Edge of Destiny as you claim to have.

p.318, 338 Glint and the ED’s are referred to as “true dragons”
p.337 Glints crystalline spikes, scales and muscle is described.
p.379 Glints crystal scales.
p.346 Kralk takes his first breath in millenia
p.346 kralk scaly ribs are described
p.346 kralk sinew flexes and bone folds as he flexes his wings
p.378 Glint’s lungs fill with blood and bubble as she labors to breathe
p.375 Glint’s talons tore off kralks scales and her fangs ripped through kralk muscle. Kralks green blood sprays.
p. 343 Kralk new minions are no longer creatures of skin or scale.
p. 345 Kralk new minions are described as giant stone monsters. No description of muscle like Glint is described.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

How common would dragon whelps be?

in Lore

Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

When I say traditional fantasy, I do not mean D&D and Warhammer – things I know nothing of. I mean things like Lord of the Wings, Dragonheart, the original Norse myths that almost all fantasy dragons derive from. And in those, they’re just fire-breathing (sometimes ice or lightning), flying, quadpedal reptiles.

Something that is just D&D and Warhammer is not “traditional fantasy” – it’s D&D and Warhammer. Lord of the Rings is something far more traditional in the fantasy world than D&D is.

yet you sate our intention is to talk about dragons in this thread’s context. The OP mentions his familiarity wit D&D. His question is measured against that familiarity with the D&D universe.

Glint is not flesh and blood, despite your continuous claims. Why? Because she’s a dragon minion, and the only dragon minion that have flesh and blood are risen (and Mordrem, if you include plants amongst the flesh and blood).

Why argue if you haven’t read Edge of destiny?

I wouldn’t call the ED’s a species in and of themselves.

Funny you say this, because:

When I say “a race of dragons” – I mean an entire species that are dragons

But yet:

When a dragon is referred to as a “true dragon” indicating that they are separate from other dragon type beings, I think we can refer to them as a race. But again, you may be right. You would however need to define what a dragon is. So far you’ve just given some qualities of the ED’s and say not those.

My qualities I give are “a species”. Yet you say you agree that the Elder Dragons are not a species. Yet you also say that they’re a race, and that all qualities I give for what makes a dragon, the Elder Dragons have.

You’re being contradictory.

Glint is also a true dragon. So there is no contradiction because it doesn’t only disqualify everyone but the ED’s. It includes all “true dragons” as a species. Confirmation here is when I mention the possibility that the ED’s may simply be too old to breed. That signifies that what I’m saying is that they may be the oldest of a species of “true dragons”.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

How common would dragon whelps be?

in Lore

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Dustfinger, I have read Edge of Destiny. I have it on my desk, and I just re-read the portions you mention. And those that mention true dragons come off as what I have said – talking about Tyria’s dragons, not traditional dragons; in that, shaped like traditional dragons but physically and fundamentally different. Not a species, not a race.

And for the descriptions of muscle and scale, half of it comes off to me as general descriptors, rather than saying “hey, she is flesh and blood” – and the other half is talking about crystals jutting out of her scales (skin) which perfectly matches Branded appearances.

For example, page 337’s description:

“Glint towered over them. Her head was mantled in crystalline spikes, sharper than swords, and her body was a mass of muscle and scale. Each leg was as wide as a millennial oak, and each foot was tipped in razor claws. Most horrible was her wings-stretching from one side of the sanctum to the other”

Half of that is metaphorical – including the “mass of muscle and scale” which is talking not that she has muscles, but that she looks vastly muscular (hence “mass of”), her body being thick and strong looking.

I think you’re taking every single word to be literal.

And to be perfectly honest, Edge of Destiny is not the best source for a perfect description, because it was written by a third party writer. What we see in-game tops what we are told in the book, always. And the novel was written before several things in the game were finalized – hence why the description of Rata Sum, Hoelbrak, and Lion’s Arch don’t match between game and book, as the book uses the original designs (which we can see in the 2009 trailer).

The only question about Kralk is is we cover out ears and sing. he is confirmed to have flesh and blood. So we know,at least he isn’t some dragon shaped construction as you claimed.

The book mentions sinew, sure, when describing someone seeing Kralkatorrik move his wings. But there’s two issues with it:

  1. That entire chapter is from the viewpoint of an individual not Kralkatorrik – thus it’s an external viewpoint, fallible when talking about the inner workings of something he doesn’t know.
  2. A lot of descriptions for something that are not like animal bodies use terms that exist in animal bodies (muscle, heart, skin, stomach, etc.) when talking about what shares the same function. Something that would move Kralkatorrik’s body would be muscle and sinew, in such a case – doesn’t mean they’re flesh. It could mean it, but it doesn’t mandate. It all depends on the writer and the context.

Crude, external viewpoint, descriptions is not really strong footing to stand on when talking about whether something is flesh or element. Edge of Destiny especially since it seemed to receive so little editing given how many lore conflicts and questionables it has.

As for his blood, it is outright stated to be crystal – I wouldn’t call something solid to be “blood”. Though his chest/rib area is said to have scales, his wings are outright stated to be crystal.

Kralks green blood sprays.

You know, you can spray glitter and the like about too. To creatures the size of mountains, even fist-sized emeralds would spray when received a large enough gash.

yet you sate our intention is to talk about dragons in this thread’s context. The OP mentions his familiarity wit D&D. His question is measured against that familiarity with the D&D universe.

So? D&D is not the sole source of traditional dragons – hell, it isn’t even the main source.

If I meant D&D dragons, I would have bloody well said “D&D dragons” and not “traditional dragons.”

The OP may be familiar with D&D, but that doesn’t mean everyone reading the thread – or even the OP – will consider D&D to be “traditional fantasy”. It’s a staple franchise alright, but so is WoW. What the OP stated his familiarity with is irrelevant in the posts of other people who don’t specify talking about that familiarity.

If I made a post about norn wereforms and mentioned my familiarity with the Twilight series and follow up posts mentioned traditional werewolves, should everyone suddenly thing that “traditional werewolves” is talking about Twilight’s depiction of werewolves? kitten to the no!

So I fail to see why you should presume I refer to Dungeons and Dragons – when I never once mentioned Dungeons and Dragons – when I talk about ‘traditional dragon designs’. Because guess what, dragons don’t originate from Dungeons and Dragons. Big shocker, I know.

But this will end up getting us nowhere. You’re interpreting these words literally, I’m seeing them for metaphors of familiarity’s sake (or the fault of a third-party writer/lore being changed resulting in errors).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)