Guild Wars 2

How did Zhaitan lift the entire island of Orr from the bottom of the ocean when he is like 1,000 times smaller than it?

Seems physically impossible and I do not think he has the magic to do it, since his boss battle was really lame…

Things way less underwater bro, NP.

Lol that’s funny. The boss fight has nothing to do with Zhaitan’s powers (which is lame because we don’t really get a sense of his true dominance even though the mission does last like 2 hours yet easier than the other dungeons), because if it did, then the mission would be utterly impossible to complete, no question. It’s almost impossible to make the missions in a game fit the imaginative world thought up in the mind, because there are no limits to imagination and creativity; however, there are countless limitations in a game that drive it to be both fun and challenging (why would you play a game if you can’t even get past the first level?)

If the game truly expressed the actual reasonable power of the monsters we fight in-game, I would not want to play it because it would just frustrate me to death.

Thing about the boss battle is that he’s been:
1) Starved (killed one of two Mouth of Zhaitan)
2) Partially blinded (killed a few Eyes of Zhaitan)
3) Had his largest minion “processing plants” (so to speak) ruined (Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead/that bone ship option)
4) Had the five greatest power sources taken from him (temple meta events)
5) And had the corruption of the land removed (Source of Orr)

He had been severely weakened repeatedly for days, if not weeks, before we took to the sky to fight him.

Also keep in mind that almost immediately after he showed up, he was crippled to the point of being unable to fly. Also keep in mind that he can’t corrupt technology (he seems to only be able to corrupt organic material – things that was once or is living), which is why he was so weak to the cannons and lasers that pummeled him repeatedly.

But before he was weakened, crippled, and seemingly maimed considering his appearance being rather… odd (no jaw, for starters), I’d imagine that he’d be much stronger. Otherwise, why did it take 100 years to kill him?

You have to keep in mind how many of Zhaitan’s supplies were taken from him. Even an Elder Dragon is not much without resources and when fighting against weapons specifically designed to negate an Elder Dragon’s corruption (Durmand Priory and Gorr both developed various anti-risen weaponry throughout the storyline).

Good thing none of the Elder Dragons know how to replicate the magic used in the Cataclysm of Orr.

I also got the impression that Zhaitan was supposed to be much bigger, but given that he is made of other dragons, I thought that he was so small in the boss fight because all of the other dragon like champions we fought were bits of him that he sent off out into the world to do his bidding. The undead dragon champions don’t look so much like rotted husks as they do the fleshrevers.

Thats just my theory though.

It’s probably just that if they made him too big then the engine couldn’t render him in the fight scene.

The very first cinematic preview of the game we ever got said in the voiceover that the lost continent of Orr “rose at the dragon’s command.”

He didn’t lift it. He COMMANDED it to rise, because he’s an ancient unspeakable force of pure magic and that’s how he rolls.

Here’s the issue about Zhaitan, it’s obvious that he was meant to be massive, like make a mountain tremble at his footsteps massive. I mean the art created by ArenaNet artists shows a true and awesome force of nature that seems impossible to deal with, sadly though this is something that would be a major struggle to replicate in a video game. Thus once more limitations weaken the overall original idea.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/archive/a/a3/20120913210240!Dragon_02_concept_art_%28Zhaitan%29.jpg

Honestly how do we know that we actually fought Zhai Zhai? I mean the mouths on the concept art have mouths in them with probably even more mouths within them!
It could be that we made Zhai Zhai bite his tongue thus making a part of him (would explain why the whole freaking lower torso is missing, it was the part of his tongue) come out, he is maybe stuck under orr like atlas in gree mythos under the globe.

“Thing about the boss battle is that he’s been:
1) Starved (killed one of two Mouth of Zhaitan)
2) Partially blinded (killed a few Eyes of Zhaitan)
3) Had his largest minion “processing plants” (so to speak) ruined (Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead/that bone ship option)
4) Had the five greatest power sources taken from him (temple meta events)
5) And had the corruption of the land removed (Source of Orr)”

1) even if he was starved he spent nearly 10 000 years sleeping (if they went to sleep around the extinction of the lupicus) oh and we killed 2 mouths – one in Malchor’s Leap storyline and one in the arah fight
2) the eyes serve so he can see without having to stomp around the entire continent all the time he wants to check something, pretty sure the 10 little heads in place of his jaw can see
3)the boss fight is about him not his minions
4)he was “wasting” power on them to use as defence against the pact, in any case that would make him stronger as he is no longer spending energy to maintain them
5)the corruption is like the dragonbrand, it’s there by his mere existance

Still not valid enough to explain his epic phail in the dungeon, he raised the entire orrian peninsula just by waking up after “starving” for thousands of years.Was expecting more magic from him tho, not crashing himself like an ettin into the ship (and not even aiming at the center which would destroy it in an instant) they should have made the entire fight yet another concept art cinematic like the intro with 20-30 airships on him, charr siege machines on the ground and etc….can’t possibly make the fight as massive and grand ingame to live up to the hype on his powers..

PS: i know it’s an old post but still (couldn’t quote too)

I agree with Insanitybg. Does Arenanet have a “scenario director” of some sort, part-writer, part-programmer.

I do have to ask how any of that, except for the fact that he has been under attack for some time before we arrive has to do with comparing Zhaitan right after awakening and during the battle. Now I’ve never fought the battle myself, but that being said, when Zhaitan awoke he had none of the power that he gained during his time after awakening, and he had no minions. In this instant, out of mere thought, he raised an entire continent from the depths of the ocean cause he didn’t like being wet. It seems like a creature that could do that would be a very formidible foe in battle.

Insanitybg.4217:

1) even if he was starved he spent nearly 10 000 years sleeping (if they went to sleep around the extinction of the lupicus) oh and we killed 2 mouths – one in Malchor’s Leap storyline and one in the arah fight
2) the eyes serve so he can see without having to stomp around the entire continent all the time he wants to check something, pretty sure the 10 little heads in place of his jaw can see
3)the boss fight is about him not his minions
4)he was “wasting” power on them to use as defence against the pact, in any case that would make him stronger as he is no longer spending energy to maintain them
5)the corruption is like the dragonbrand, it’s there by his mere existance

1) The second Mouth of Zhaitan being killed may not have directly influenced him becoming weakened.
2 and 3) Apparently you didn’t pay attention to one of the possibly-four missions where it’s outright stated that the Elder Dragons become more powerful through their minions. That’s the main concept behind the Mouth (being the most influencial in this aspect). Therefore, the death and prevention of creating more minions makes Zhaitan himself weaker.
4) Except the power there was divine and thus not Zhaitan. So they were food sources to him – as Zhaitan (if not other Elder Dragons) consume magic to feed. Therefore, taking those would make him weaker since he’s not absorbing their magic anymore.
5) Not exactly. The Dragonbrand was a proactive creation – Kralkatorrik corrupted the land intentionally as he flew south. The corruption of Orr is similar, true, but it’s not “just by his mere existence” otherwise it would have been corrupted while he slumbered (same with the other ED). However, as stated above: removing or reducing the Elder Dragons’ corruption is said a multitude of times throughout the later storyline, to weaken the respective Elder Dragon since they no longer feed off of said corrupted things.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying it’s underwhelming. I’m merely saying that Zhaitan did not have the power he did before confronting him.

Narcemus.1348:

Now I’ve never fought the battle myself, but that being said, when Zhaitan awoke he had none of the power that he gained during his time after awakening, and he had no minions.

This isn’t entirely true to our knowledge. Considering that the Elder Dragons radiate magic to their surroundings, it would only stand to believe that they also absorb it, even while sleeping, since it seems that their magical use is akin to breathing for us.

So for thinking of how an Elder Dragon “eats” magic, compare it to how you breath. That’s my personal theory and understanding on it at least.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1) The second Mouth of Zhaitan being killed may not have directly influenced him becoming weakened.
2 and 3) Apparently you didn’t pay attention to one of the possibly-four missions where it’s outright stated that the Elder Dragons become more powerful through their minions. That’s the main concept behind the Mouth (being the most influencial in this aspect). Therefore, the death and prevention of creating more minions makes Zhaitan himself weaker.
4) Except the power there was divine and thus not Zhaitan. So they were food sources to him – as Zhaitan (if not other Elder Dragons) consume magic to feed. Therefore, taking those would make him weaker since he’s not absorbing their magic anymore.
5) Not exactly. The Dragonbrand was a proactive creation – Kralkatorrik corrupted the land intentionally as he flew south. The corruption of Orr is similar, true, but it’s not “just by his mere existence” otherwise it would have been corrupted while he slumbered (same with the other ED). However, as stated above: removing or reducing the Elder Dragons’ corruption is said a multitude of times throughout the later storyline, to weaken the respective Elder Dragon since they no longer feed off of said corrupted things.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying it’s underwhelming. I’m merely saying that Zhaitan did not have the power he did before confronting him.

2-3 yes they make him weaker yet he was powerful enough to raise the land and it’s inhabitants alone
4- the temples weren’t food sources, he corrupted them as defence (said by the npcs when you finish the meta event = they make those asuran artifacts to contain his corruption)
5- guess that’s true the corruption is more passive but i don’t see how it will weaken him (also since he was the source of the corruption in orr, how did the cleansing work while he was alive?)

wtb 1min CGI trailer for the fight and have the entire dungeon just be guarding the ship

The temples may act as a defense by Zhaitan, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t feeding on the innate magic presented there – and it’s said he’s corrupting said innate magic at the temples by the meta event scouts. Since he feeds on the magic he corrupts (effectively consuming, corrupting, then exuding the magic), the temples are both a food source and a defense for Zhaitan.

Zhaitan feeds on magic. The Artesian Waters is a source of magic. So cleansing that corruption – which is possible since that’s the “source” of Orr (e.g., the epicenter of where the flow of corruption is) is at that place, even if Zhaitan’s alive somewhere else (and thus not re-corrupting it) – would thus weaken Zhaitan’s hold on magic. Think of it like this: You head to a water and pour some coloring dye in it – the river flow will wash it away; you head to the mouth of the river (most often a lake) and pour the dye there and it will settle and then get carried by the river spreading it. The concept is the same – Zhaitan did this, then Trehearne did this to remove Zhaitan’s corruption while he was somewhere else. If Zhaitan were to return to the Artesian Waters, it would have become re-corrupted.

Essarious Quw.8946:

I also got the impression that Zhaitan was supposed to be much bigger, but given that he is made of other dragons, I thought that he was so small in the boss fight because all of the other dragon like champions we fought were bits of him that he sent off out into the world to do his bidding. The undead dragon champions don’t look so much like rotted husks as they do the fleshrevers.

Thats just my theory though.

It’s probably just that if they made him too big then the engine couldn’t render him in the fight scene.

He is actually really big, it’s hard to get a sense of perspective.. Watch closely when he tries to bite at the airship using one of his inner mouths; the mini-dragon-head is easily 8-12ft tall, and those are tiny compared to zhaitan himself.

There’s no doubt he’s massive, but I don’t believe that he is as large as he’s made out to be in the original concept art. I am excited to see Kralkatorrik when the battle against him commences, cause in the book he is described as a mile at least in 1 direction, can’t remember if it’s head to tail or wingspan.

Narcemus.1348:

There’s no doubt he’s massive, but I don’t believe that he is as large as he’s made out to be in the original concept art. I am excited to see Kralkatorrik when the battle against him commences, cause in the book he is described as a mile at least in 1 direction, can’t remember if it’s head to tail or wingspan.

kralkatorrik’s wingspan shadows the sky, going by the book description. also going by the book’s description, he is like a living storm.

inb4kralk is just a giant dragon-shaped cloud :P

as for zhaitan, yes he was weakened after various successful attempts at cutting his power short, but he is still supposed to be incredibly powerful. and that sense of power isn’t sold in the battle, since a single laser only didn’t kill him because it missed. he had to at least have shown more resistance. he should be able to take a punch or two without being completely mutilated and then crippled by tractor beam lasers. hell, tequatl, his champion, takes 2-3 of those lasers to the face during the battle with him on sparkfly fen and still attacks and flies around.

Sadly I can’t speak to it anymore because of the fact that I have not actually fought Zhaitan.

Narcemus.1348:

There’s no doubt he’s massive, but I don’t believe that he is as large as he’s made out to be in the original concept art. I am excited to see Kralkatorrik when the battle against him commences, cause in the book he is described as a mile at least in 1 direction, can’t remember if it’s head to tail or wingspan.

He’s said to be 1,000 feet tall (which is shorter than a mile) – though it’s not known if this is in relation to him on all fours, or up on his hind legs (I’d imagine the former). Though his wingspan was far far larger (blocking out the sun and all).

Given that size, Zhaitan actually fits the size of an Elder Dragons, I think. The concept art just made him look to be bigger than 1,000 feet tall.

But then again, both of these size measurements (and “20 times larger than Glint”) comes from Edge of Destiny, which made Kralkatorrik seem both tiny and humongous at the same time (how can something only 1,000 feet tall block out the sun?).

BrunoBRS.5178:

hell, tequatl, his champion, takes 2-3 of those lasers to the face during the battle with him on sparkfly fen and still attacks and flies around.

Except that’s 1) a prototype and 2) a far weaker version. The laser in the dungeon was specifically tuned to fight Elder Dragons on Zojja’s designs (which were likely based off of Snaff and Kudu/the Inquest’s studies on the Elder Dragons and their draconic energies). The laser used against Tequatl didn’t have these designs from Zojja – which likely were applied to those golden spray flak cannons.

Well, a being that is 1,000 feet tall has to have a massive wingspan to support the weight and keep it aloft, assuming that they use the regular laws of physics as opposed to magic to fly.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Except that’s 1) a prototype and 2) a far weaker version. The laser in the dungeon was specifically tuned to fight Elder Dragons on Zojja’s designs (which were likely based off of Snaff and Kudu/the Inquest’s studies on the Elder Dragons and their draconic energies). The laser used against Tequatl didn’t have these designs from Zojja – which likely were applied to those golden spray flak cannons.

that doesn’t excuse zhaitan being downed by a single shot. because that would mean the war is over. they just have to fly enough laser ships to each dragon and blow them up. with enough lasers, you just need to worry about getting there.

sure, zhaitan was weakened, but he was still essentially one-shotted by the laser. imagine if they had a fleet of those, and actually remembered to charge the things before taking off?

the problem with those lasers isn’t lore, the problem is that they kill any sense of threat the dragons ever had, because they’re so frail, putting it in perspective. and that ruins the mood of the game.

@Narcemus: Considering the Elder Dragons are “more magical than physical” I’d assume that they use a mixture of magic and physical force to fly (Zhaitan was crippled by 2 wings on the same side being damaged, so it’s not pure magical force).

@BrunoBRS: Except he wasn’t? The shot cut off 2 tails (including 1 set of wings), and he was still moving about easily. It was the second set of beams, which damaged, as I said above, 2 wings on one side, that prevented him from flying. And even after that, he was pummeled by anti-dragon cannons.

The initial laser actually did very little to him.

If they could even make an army of those lasers, then you’re correct, however we have no indication of how expensive they are – a few personal story steps prior to Victory or Death, you get lines indicating that it’s taking a lot of effort and resources to create the Glory of Tyria – meaning that they won’t go about creating a fleet of them.

I don’t expect to see the Glory of Tyria return for the other Elder Dragons – especially Primordus, since you can’t fly airships of that size in underground tunnels.

the initial laser did very little to him because it missed. it mutilated him clearly and easily. a direct hit to the chest, or even the head, would’ve been lethal, but instead it hit the tails.

and zhaitan has the advantage of being a voltron dragon.

Just because these beams worked against Zhaitan does not mean that they would be equally effective against the other Elder Dragons. I mean obviously Bubbles and Primordius would be difficult to deal with from an aerial perspective. Following that the make-up of Jormag and Kralkatorrik are completely different from Zhaitan, being made of differing elements. When it comes to Jormag there is the definite need to find some way to protect the minds of pact members, cause the laser would do no good if all it’s operators are turned against us merely by looking into Jormag’s eyes. Similarly with Kralkatorrik has the ability to corrupt the environment to a greater extent than Zhaitan, so there is the possibility that he could take down the laser before it can shoot him. The other issue with Kralkatorrik, was the ability of him to disappear into storms, making targeting him extremely difficult and using airships would leave one extremely exposed to his breath. In other words, there is definitely problems to deal with when it comes to each new dragon, there is very little chance that each battle will be the same.

Furthermore, for Jormag, it’s implied by the kodan in Frostgorge Sound that he’s aquatic (they were fighting him before having to flee south in their Sanctuaries, and they are only now getting accustomed to land – and don’t like it). It’ll be hard to fight an aerial battle with no land for miles around – the amount of time to get to Jormag, and then the risk of falling into the water being trapped by, more than likely, thousands of fish-based icebrood. Or having to go with a naval battle instead…

While they are all Elder Dragons, they are also very different. Their appearance is different, how they corrupt is different, their environment is different. More than likely their weaknesses will be different too (burning works against risen, whereas chopping them up is less effective – I doubt that’s so for destroyers who are immune to burning!).

So the easy button for Zhaitan can easily be tossed aside by writing “it doesn’t work against the other Elder Dragons” – though now I’m picturing the entire Pact forces working on the laser, thinking “one good aim will kill Kralkatorrik,” they fire the laser and… it’s reflected by Kralkatorrik’s crystals, shot back at them.

^^ (god i hate broken quote buttons) of course i know that, i’m just pointing out how absurdly powerful those lasers are, to the point it makes the dragons feel almost unthreatening.

primordus could be dealt with the same way as zhaitan, just replace airships with tanks. jormag and kralkatorrik, assuming they don’t have some magic power to reflect the laser (what with lasers being a kind of light, and ice and crystals being known for refracting and reflecting light), you’d just have to mass-produce the stuff destiny’s edge already used against jormag’s champion (powdered grey energy crystals i believe they were?) and i can’t say i recall what defensive measures they took against kralkatorrik. if anything, i remember snaff beating kralk down with sheer willpower, using his mind reading gizmo helmet. of course, snaff was an exception, but the point stands: there are relatively simple ways to deal with the mind control powers of the dragons, the difference is how to approach them offensively, which seems like a case of fine tuning those kitten lasers.

of course, those lasers wouldn’t even be brought into the discussion if they just packed a punch and really damaged the dragons, rather than tearing through them like they were made of papier mache.

my issue is mostly with how fragile zhaitan himself was after he was weakened through the story. he should still be extremely powerful AND resilient, even when weakened. the fight should still be incredibly tough.

this is one of those cases where poorly designed gameplay interferes with the lore, and i’d gladly accept it if they redesigned that battle to present a tougher zhaitan that even with state of the art technology and a fleet’s worth of airships (with Tyria on the lead) he still presented a challenge. preferrably, do that before any other dragons are introduced, as to remove the sense of non-threat that zhaitan gave to the other dragons. i mean, they just stay hiding in their places until we bust the door open and easily kill them, right?

I would also like to point out that as far as we know Zhaitan, from concept art, is the only dragon so far to be made of flesh and bone. All the other dragons seem to be made of much tougher stuff, with the exception of bubbles because of the lack of knowledge as to his actual form.

Narcemus.1348:

I would also like to point out that as far as we know Zhaitan, from concept art, is the only dragon so far to be made of flesh and bone. All the other dragons seem to be made of much tougher stuff, with the exception of bubbles because of the lack of knowledge as to his actual form.

kralkatorrik bleeds, so that implies some sort of flesh under the scales. what the scales are made of is anyone’s guess though (probably crystals, though). i’d guess the same applies to the others.

and as zhaitan has proven, early concept art is hardly a directive of how a dragon will look like.

Kralkatorrik does indeed bleed, however, I don’t know of any creature of typical flesh and bone who’s blood crystallizes.

It’s like saying sylvari bleed, therefore it’s flesh and bone… nah, cuz they bleed sap, but they have wood not bones.

blood dries up with time. turning into crystal is just a matter of composition, and it’s especially easy when your blood drips on sand. for all we know, the crystal blood is just sand from the crystal desert mixed with kralk’s blood.

the point is, to bleed, you’d need flesh, or some other equivalent. a sylvari’s ‘flesh’ is made of leaves, which just like in real life plants, drip sap if you cut them (depends on the species, of course, but the point stands).

Konig Des Todes.2086 – Killing minions =/= weaking the ED, but it does weaken his area of influence, what is another thing, the corruptions do just create by the EDs being there, because they just seep their power (how the original Asura gates were powered = draining Primos powers much faster than they would ususally seep thus making him hunger much faster than he ususally would) and its spread even further via minions or can even be summoned by champions (as claw and sunless show). Corruption is spread of the area of influence, but not the actual power of the dragon itself.
As said he probably just bit his tongue and that part slipped out and attacked us and because of it having a shard of zhais power, it overwhelmed all calculations and we destroyed it thinking it was Zhaitan, since as Dhuum shows, no being, no matter how powerful or what counters it has, cannot stand to something of ultimate power (since the whole ED punchline was that they at least as strong as the human gods, but more like animals than sentient beings).

Also something cannot bleed if it doesnt have blood by the very definition of bleeding.

Zenyatoo.4059:

Things way less underwater bro, NP.

You made Newton turn in his grave…

Water’s high density offsets the apparent weight of some low density objects. But a rock is still a rock… even if he lifted it up, it’d fall back down, the fact the land is now out of the ocean implies the underlying bedrock and crust is pushed up with it.

The explanation is simply “with magic” in this context

@Andele: You apparently didn’t read my entire posts:

The Elder Dragons – or at least Zhaitan – feed through their minions. You kill their minions, you remove their food source, you starve them, they become weaker. Though the Mouth of Zhaitan was the “main eater” for this, they’re not the only ones – Zhaitan, who devours magic, takes magic from objects and things. This is how he corrupts.

As to seeping magic – take note that the asura, who had extensive dealings with Primrodus, never showed signs of corruption nor did they even realize that the destroyers situated themselves at Primordus. This means that, while Primordus was indeed seeping magic out, said seeping magic did NOT corrupt. Same goes for Kralkatorrik in the north, or Zhaitan in Orr – the charr didn’t have an issue with branded prior to Kralkatorrik’s awakening, and Orr never had undead problems (until the Cataclysm).

So their presence does not automatically corrupt. They have to actively corrupt things.

Also, the asura gates being powered by Primordus also show that draconic energies in of themselves do not corrupt. Otherwise the entire gate network would have been a destroyer-making factory.

And to make a bit of a correction: the entire “punchline” as you put it is from the perspective of the races of Tyria – the Elder Dragons are very much intelligent. And you’d see this if you paid attention to the personal story, in how Zhaitan shows more and more intelligence starting after Claw Island.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Andele: You apparently didn’t read my entire posts:

The Elder Dragons – or at least Zhaitan – feed through their minions. You kill their minions, you remove their food source, you starve them, they become weaker. Though the Mouth of Zhaitan was the “main eater” for this, they’re not the only ones – Zhaitan, who devours magic, takes magic from objects and things. This is how he corrupts.

As to seeping magic – take note that the asura, who had extensive dealings with Primrodus, never showed signs of corruption nor did they even realize that the destroyers situated themselves at Primordus. This means that, while Primordus was indeed seeping magic out, said seeping magic did NOT corrupt. Same goes for Kralkatorrik in the north, or Zhaitan in Orr – the charr didn’t have an issue with branded prior to Kralkatorrik’s awakening, and Orr never had undead problems (until the Cataclysm).

So their presence does not automatically corrupt. They have to actively corrupt things.

Also, the asura gates being powered by Primordus also show that draconic energies in of themselves do not corrupt. Otherwise the entire gate network would have been a destroyer-making factory.

And to make a bit of a correction: the entire “punchline” as you put it is from the perspective of the races of Tyria – the Elder Dragons are very much intelligent. And you’d see this if you paid attention to the personal story, in how Zhaitan shows more and more intelligence starting after Claw Island.

actually on the asura gate comment, i think it has more to do with primordus not being a corrupter, but rather creating his own minions from mineral matter. Kudu gets corrupted by kralkatorrik’s magic simply by working with it, despite being hundreds of miles away from the closest sign of branded.

and andele isn’t entirely wrong on the “punchline” thing either. the devs, more specifically ree and jeff, have described the dragons before as something unlike what we’re used to. it doesn’t think, or at least not on the level we’re used to consider thought. they are forces of destruction, like hurricanes. hurricanes don’t think, they don’t have reasoning, they just happen. meanwhile, the dragon champions are much closer to what we’d consider “rational beings”, with the ability to think.

of course, that argument falls short the moment characters start mentioning that zhaitan plans this and that, and that he has factories and rankings and a whole war plan set. then again, it could be the characters misunderstanding how a dragon thinks, and assuming that the dragon thinks like a person would.

@Konig Des Todes.2086
Dragon to minion relation – they feed the dragons, magic, but not to give them power, its to sustain their rage/put them back to slumber, since once they get enough power they should fall asleep, even the gods probably dont know what hell would happen if one of them actually became hungry because of a empty stomach, also while the asura werent corrupt, the whole ground and everything in it was, what is kinda whole thing Primordus version of the corruption does, taking fossiles and turning them into destroyers while causing it to mostly melt/turning it into lava, just as no living being got corrupted into a risen, but every dead on orr did. For short dragons power isnt influenced by minions at all, minions only sate their hunger/how much they rely on the more basic instincts and how fast theyll go back to sleep.

Energy is corruption – Use of energy trough magic =/= infusing something with the energy itself as the asura story with the infinity cube shows you. If it were so every human would have the powers of gods, dervishes would have been the ultimate beings and the norn animals…. Think of it as direct exposure to sunlight, good for plants in short tems if they can convert it, but if directly exposed to it for a long amount of time they die.

Last thing, never said ED werent smart, just that they work on the “level of animals”(crocodiles being a great example, one of the smartest predators in nature, working only off instincts), since their main strategies are left to the champions, over who he has little actual mental control (as shown by the eye/king of orr, zhai ordering minions to kill everything alive, the eye telling the knights to let us in).

I’m sorry, but that’s wrong. Dragon champions were giving their respective Elder Dragon power in order to wake up – it’s the opposite of what you claim (that minions give magic to sustain their rage/put them to sleep). It is indeed to feed them, which in turn makes them stronger as they have more magic. It is not to put them back to sleep – the only reason why they went to sleep previously is because they ran out of food, not because they were satiated.

And we all know what happens when their bellies empty – they wake up. That’s why they’re waking up now (at least according to Glint).

I have seen nothing which claims Primordus takes fossils. Instead, what he does is he takes lava and rock to make destroyers. The area around him isn’t so because of Primordus – as far as we know, at least. There’s never an outright explanation for why the area around Primordus is a lava pit; however, given that Vekk showed no surprise to the lava being there, it’s highly likely that it’s always been there even before the Great Destroyer (and thus Primordus’ corruption) returned.

“For short dragons power isnt influenced by minions at all, minions only sate their hunger/how much they rely on the more basic instincts and how fast theyll go back to sleep.”

Besides how I’ve already stated that you are, in fact, wrong about the sleeping part, imagine what would happen if you’re starving. Starve long enough and you become weaker. This is exactly what I meant by killing minions = weakening the Elder Dragons. They gain less food, and thus they have less magic to use. Less magic to use means less power. It’s logical deduction, and not very hard to grasp.

Energy in of itself is not corruption. Draconic energy – which is unique to the Elder Dragons – however is.

Your statement on Elder Dragon mentality is self-contradicting by the way. Working solely off of instincts in of itself means not being smart. Instincts are natural reflexes – something that’s done without thought. So to act with only instinct means to act without thought. Yet you say the ED can be smart (and crocodiles too) – but if they only use instincts, this is not so.

Also, Zhaitan doesn’t have direct control over every single minion. How it’s done is that the intelligence level of minions depends on – in the case for Zhaitan at least – how much corrupted magic Zhaitan puts back into the corpse to make a minion. The more corrupted magic put in, the more intelligence and “free will” (that is to say, independency) the minion has. The less corrupted magic put in, the less intelligence there is. As such, those with more intelligence orders those mindless zerg-mimicing minions around. It’s not Zhaitan ordering everything to kill all only to be contradicted by the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan – it’s that Zhaitan knows everything his minions know, and that all minions work in the favor of Zhaitan, those who “kill everything” are just that much less intelligent.

(The intelligence level of minions is confirmed during one of the OoW storylines – going to get Gorr’s help after Claw Island; the champions ordering lesser minions comes from an interview; ED waking up due to empty bellies is from Edge of Destiny; so is the dragon champions giving their masters energy to wake up)

The whole thing with us beating the Great Destroyer was that it leeched enough power out of Primo to wake him up, not that he woke up like 50 years later when he finally seeped enough energy for him to get hungry.

Evidence that they are living fossiles are that we fight destroyer versions of the jotun and mursaat, not to mention that the final boss was actually a lesser type of dragon that we have only evidence to be in the shiverpeaks (frozen statues there look a lot like a great destroyer if you slap on flesh on it and remove the whole molten lave part), not to mention that fossiles of older races are stupidly rare except for the true giants that we have a few more sightings off, not to mention that the asura straight up mention that they awoke when they went to a excavation.

You wake up before you even start feeling hunger because if the body notices a lack of nutrition it goes full gear for you to get more, same as with the ED, thus again your point makes no sense. Not to mention that the dragons cannot consume power while they are sleeping. Also if a giant engine is on low power and you force it to work, it doesnt work weaker, just for a much shorter amount of time, also elementary, since power input must give same power output, only time may numerically change.

It is a paradox, but it is true, the strongest predators rely only on basic instincts and react to the enemy, but that doesnt mean that they will do something stupid, e.g. a person likes math will know to multiply two numbers with four digits each in a fraction of the time someone who isnt natural in that field, same as some people are just naturally great at sports, doesnt mean that cant get smarter and improve on that was is already their nature.

You either didnt listen to what sovereign said or ignored the fact that zhai did everything he could to kill everyone, ignoring their living potential, ulike our dear transformed king of orr. Also, its pretty clear that minions cant be as important, but they are all pretty much just as bright as every other (guards defending the mouth, knights defending the eyes, normal risen defending the giants, the giants trying to “pull aggro” away from the guards and knights). You even kitten fight “one of Zhaitans” generals who is essencially just a fancy armored run of the mill risen you kill on orr 10000 times for your temple exotics, after he stops chilling with his eye and mouth friends.

Magic sucks only states that minion behaviour changes depending on what they were in real life and that it takes more magic to revive more powerful beings, not that e.g. undead krait are smarter than grubs, only thing you confirm in Edge of Destiny (except that DE are a whiny group of children in adult bodies) is champions drain power from their masters, but return it by corrupting stuff out of their actual area of influence (the whole bloody reason why snaff managed to get so farm with the research/whole idea to use their of energy against them).

Source on the Great Destroyer leeching powers from Primordus, please. I’ve never seen hide nor hair of this.

We do not fight destroyers of mursaat and jotun. Keep in mind that destroyers are created to mimic life (though this is less so in GW1). I suppose you can claim that the mesmers were mimicing mursaat, however I’d consider that to be more likely a case of re-used resources, as the only similarity really is that they use the same model frame – but to claim a relation because of that is like claiming a relation between Stone Rains of the Echovald Forest and the paragon Margonites and Khilbron because they all use the same model frame and animations. Though all things considered, the initial destroyers very well were likely based off of life of Primordus’ last awakening.

I don’t know what frozen statues you refer to that look like the Great Destroyer. Which, yes, he was indeed a small dragon, just as other ED-made dragon champions are. Including the Shatterer which is most definitely not fossils. It’s outright stated that destroyers mimic life, being created solely from stone and lava – we even can read how they’re made in Edge of Destiny (when fighting the Destroyer of Life).

My “points” that make no sense are directly from the game lore. Also, please provide a source stating that dragons cannot consume power while they’re sleeping. Here’s my proof: “They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise. And it did rise. One of the Elder Dragons. Jormag was its name.” – Edge of Destiny, page 221 – this was done through Drakkar, as Jeff Grubb explained through Stephane Lo Presti (sadly, due to Guru2’s reformatting the post was lost! Q_Q)

On the ED waking due to empty bellies: “But three hundred years ago, the dragons’ bellies were empty, and their minds were awakening.” – Edge of Destiny, page 340

I did pay attention to what the Soverieng Eye of Zhaitan said. I did not ignore the fact that Zhaitan had his minions going through to repeatedly stop the Pact. Again, however, the more important minions (Mouth of Zhaitan, Eyes of Zhaitan, the dragons themselves) are more intelligent and, as said command lesser minions – it’s not that the lesser minions are just as smart so they guard their leaders, it’s that their leaders are commanding them to be guards! It appears the same, but trust me it’s not. And this – that lesser minions aren’t as intelligent – is outright stated in game. Please re-read through the dialogue here – to quote the more important bits: “I would be surprised if Zhaitan even bothers with controlling its lesser minions. They do nothing but destroy.” “These seem to be more powerful. They also hold a larger quantity of magic. More of Zhaitan’s will, perhaps?” “Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan’s infused them with tremendous energy.”

The more energy Zhaitan infuses unto the risen, the more powerful they are and the more self-will they have. As such, the lesser minions are not “just as bright as every other” (well, maybe as every other lesser minion!). This means that even if a minions looks the same, it might not necessarily be the same!

So I’m sorry, but you’re getting the bloody opposite out of these sources! The champions can and do indeed use the power of their Elder Dragon in EoD, but it’s also explicitly stated that – at least in the case of Jormag, the one champion which does use its ED’s power – they gave their ED power to rise. And Magic Sucks (among other sources, really, from interviews to other events and personal story steps) show how minions are made and, in turn, how intelligent they become from how they’re made!

^ the lore interview with ree and jeff would be a much easier (and shorter) way to explain the minion intelligence thing. it’s essentially what you said, but in TL;DR version.

from what i remember, it goes like this:

dragons are like forces of destruction, they don’t have what you would typically call “thought”. they don’t think, they do. that’s not to say they’re mindless beasts though, they just operate on a level beyond what we’re used too.

the minions, too, operate on this “there is no why” way of being, just destroying everything on their path, as it is the dragon’s will. in doing so, they expand the dragon’s “influence”, so to speak, and as with any warfare, if you control more terrain without spreading units thin (since zhaitan turns the defeated into more soldiers), you are stronger. more area to draw resources from and whatnot.

the champions, or liutenants, or whatever you want to call them, are more relatable. they think and, as you said, the stronger they are, the more intelligent they are. they posess self awareness, and they are capable of commanding the mindless hordes. why they serve their masters i can’t quite remember, but i think Glint made it sound like it was some sort of spellbound thing. i’ll look it up and come back to that later.

but there you have it, the hierarchy of the dragons and minions.

If I were able to find that interview, I would have linked it. >.<

Glint didn’t have her own will still – they had self-thought, but they’re all still fanatic followers (to varying degrees depending on strength and Elder Dragon) of their master. It’s not so much of a spell-binding thing but more or a restricted will. (This from what I’ve seen of the forgotten magic in Arah explorable dungeon – the forgotten used a spell to give Glint her own will, and based off of Glint from Edge of Destiny, being able to read the minds of those she killed led her to betray Kralkatorrik – the combination of the two allowed her to leave Kralkatorrik’s forces).

^ yeah i just went back and that sounds about right. the interview is on their twitch channel, isn’t it? before all the BWE3 PvP stuff they posted. let me find it.

voila

Source on the Great Destroyer leeching powers from Primordus, please. I’ve never seen hide nor hair of this.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Great_Destroyer – the wiki itself, as everything related to him and the Great dwarf, the same thing happened with Jormag and Svanir; Kralkatorrik and Glint when DE kittened up again and essencially pinged her on the map for him (each time a champion uses a lot of energy the dragon reacts, when you kill em, it hurts him, especially if you actually absorb the energy and throw it back at the champion, the whole point of the special cannons on the pact airships).

The last time the EDs woke up was when the Forgotten, Jotun , Mursaat, Seers and Dwarves were up, thus yes it would be the Jotun and Mursaat lands where we fight the destroyers in GWEN

Nothing states that they aint reused life like every other dragon minion, just that they are forged of stone and magma, but not that that is their basis, on the same logic Risen and the undead, its bones and poison that fights us what clearly aint the case

Quote from Edge: “The Destroyer of Life is forged of stone and magma. He is raising more armies of destroyers.”

Your exact quote about Jormag is the proof that he was feeding upon the power while asleep (via the icebrood, but still he nomming on power while taking his nice long nap), especially this part: “They believed they were drawing upon the ancient voice, but in fact it was drawing upon them, gaining the power to rise.”

That was Trahearne who said it about kittening grubs, just a level up to krait and men its “Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan’s infused them with tremendous energy” showing that pretty much, like while they were alive, they act based on evolution and that it isnt on the “infused magic” just that he needs more magic to return them to life, if the overreactions of emosaladmancer were to be hold true, then he would need all the power of tyria to revive something the size of the Sunless, not to mention a True Giant (if he needs bloody massive amounts of energy to revive a mere human).

Except that wiki article does NOT state that the Great Destroyer was taking power to wake Primordus as you claim. Nor is that the case with Jormag and Svanir, nor is that the case with Kralkatorrik and Glint. Yes, the deaths of champions do cause the Elder Dragons to react and weaken – this is exactly my point I’ve been making, except that it’s not only champions (they just give the biggest reactions).

Pure speculation as to where the mursaat lived, as we do not know where they lived (same goes for seers), and the jotun were not underground but above ground. That, however, is irrelevant to the destroyers being made from mursaat and jotun fossils – also pure speculation which you have, just like the first point, failed to provide a source for (because there is none).

Yes, actually, everything we know on Destroyers tell us that they’re not corrupted creatures but lava and stone. The destroyers themselves are repeatedly said to be creatures of fire/lava and stone/obsidian/steel. Other minions are said to be corrupted creatures with their respective elements attached. One such case comes from the Movement of the World “With his breath, he twisted earth and stone, shaping creatures and giving them life.” Not creatures, but the earth and stone itself.

Yes, my quote is proof that Jormag was feeding on his minions… what I’ve been arguing for this entire time, and what you were arguing against the entire time (that champions drain their ED of power to wake them – but as shown, and what my point is, Drakkar, champion of Jormag, was giving power to wake Jormag).

Right because all of the risen who’s sole military tactic is “swarm mindlessly” outside when a powerful minion is around is the sure case of showing equal intelligence! Just pay attention to what they say and how they act – that alone is proof to show that the powerful minions have more self-will and intelligence! The interview with Ree and Jeff that Bruno linked is pure pure straight from the horse’s mouth event! Yet you still deny what the developers themselves stated.

And where does he say he needs massive amounts of energy to revive a mere human? Keep in mind that it’s not size, but intelligence and power – also remember that he takes first then gives back. So with all those millions of mindless human, norn, charr, grub, asura, hyket, quaggan, and so forth drones out there, he’s likely gained magic from each one (not to mention all the Orrian artifacts and other magic-rich Orrian stuff, like the Artesian Waters which is a magical hotspot in of itself) even after reanimating them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But then again, both of these size measurements (and “20 times larger than Glint”) comes from Edge of Destiny, which made Kralkatorrik seem both tiny and humongous at the same time (how can something only 1,000 feet tall block out the sun?).

Simple… it’s all perspective. As stated, the descriptions are given by Edge of Destiny. Think of sitting under a tree, you look up and the sun is completely gone. Now with the undead, a haze also comes which could block out light too. Then again, we weren’t there, we haven’t seen it man (stereotypical Vietnam veteran turned hippie voice)

Also, sorry for the late post in thread as it could easily cause confusion. On a side note; Risen Mursaat…

Verteiron.8734:

He didn’t lift it. He COMMANDED it to rise, because he’s an ancient unspeakable force of pure magic and that’s how he rolls.

QFT. Dragons consume magic, and they use magic in lieu of physical force, I believe. I never imagined he physically lifted the place.

And, just as Abaddon was restrained by Balthazar-forged shackles, Zhaitan was starved and also hit by an Asura megalaser just previously to the fight.