Guild Wars 2

Knowing now that Zhatitan is dead (shards of zhaitan dungeon arah item says so) that means the history of the dragons sleeping and reviing is according to that shard, broken. Or it might have been that dragons did die and new ones rose. So…. first of all.. how did the anceint races fail? Even with current technologie, isnt it a bit dumb to think that 10 people could kill an elder dragon and pretty much his whole army, even with technology, that 6 ancient races could not kill 5? the 10 people with technology should still be weaker than ONE of the ancient races, and after zhaitan started corrupting, wouldnt it ‘evolve’ to get stronger? Otherwise how did it survive teohr ones when technology was still advancing? Going back to the theory that new dragons rose.. how is that possible? Arent the dragons old races of destruction. How are elder dragons created anyways. Zhatian was a mixture of dragons, was he concidentially created? tehre must be very dark magic to creat such a thing. No understading here.

Any thoughts?

Why would 10 people with tech be weaker than one ancient race?
As we learn through the story, teamwork can accomplish anything. The ancient races tried to fight the dragons, but I think it was said that Glint eventually hid them to preserve their knowledge, while the dragons ravaged the earth.
And I don’t think we were ever told that ‘new’ dragons rose, although it’s true that some of the ones we’re fighting are new. We don’t really know much about their creation, where they came from, how they decide to come back.

The dragons may wake when the races become powerful enough to be a threat. The jotun say human were little more than grull when they first got to tyria.

And since glint hid the ancient races we may only be where we’re at due to not needing to start from scratch since their knowlege was preserved.

Id put it down to a few things.

One would be unity. Although they seem to have been allied they didnt really seem to act much in concert. Infact the Mursaat ran away once they figured out how to leave the rest to their fates.

Secondly Id say magic would play a part. The anceint races may have had more powerful magic, but we have the advantage of having access to divine magic and the magic of the sylvari, which is extremely effective against the dragons.

Finally Id say tech. Remember that the Dragons eat magic. Taking magic to a fight against a dragon can very likely backfire against you and make them stronger. Cannons and lazers are probably the most effective weapons you could use against the Dragons cause they dont have the ability to corrupt lazers and cannon fire in the way they can magic.

The dragons might have been more powerful in the old days too. It’s mentioned in several places that the dragons aren’t completely awakened.

Ya, i recall something about an NPC or someone saying the attack hasn’t really begun or something to that effect but i can’t place it.

I believe it is Genzhou you two are referring to. http://i.imgur.com/7XBgGh.jpg

Ah! that may be exactly the one i was thinking of.

The ancient races heavily relied upon magic.

Elder Dragons feast on magic.

Ergo, the ancient races’ weapons were food for the Elder Dragons. To starve the Elder Dragons, the seers removed the primary weapons of all five races (not six, btw). Leaving them defenseless while the Elder Dragons began to starve (though they still got food via corrupting living beings).

Zhaitan’s defeat came from the fact that charr have technology and asura have magitech, the closest to which the ancient races had were the jotun, who’s magic and technology is fairly unknown.

Also, 10 people? I think you’re ignoring the entire armies that is the Pact – not only is the Pact of the Order of Whispers, Vigil, and Durmand Priory, but the High Legions, Lionguard, sylvari as a whole, and the minor races aided previously, as well as some largos, are all helping out – it’s more accurate to say that it’s 5 major races and portions of 6 minor races (if not more). But as said, it was mechanical technology that gave the upper hand to the Pact.

ALso, keep in mind that the mursaat fled the world after nearly genociding the seer race. So it was really 3 races in the end – the dwarves, jotun, and forgotten. Even with the forgotten having found out a means to prevent or cleanse corruption, that wouldn’t be enough when the seers have taken away magic.

Dustfinger.9510:

The dragons may wake when the races become powerful enough to be a threat. The jotun say human were little more than grull when they first got to tyria.

And Thruln the Lost is wrong in that regard.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And Thruln the Lost is wrong in that regard.

Possibly. Based on what?

Based on the fact that he’s referring to when humanity arrived on the coasts of Tyria – comparing them, as they were then, to the modern grawl who are incapable of sea travel. Furthermore, about five years after they landed on said coasts, they built kingdoms. Thruln also claims that the Six Gods did not recognize humans until the latter had built kingdoms – yet the humans were brought to the world by the Six Gods, and Cantha existed, with knowledge of the gods and reverence to them, even claimed interaction with them, for hundreds of years already.

Thruln’s entire context sounds like he’s trying to save face for his race, and is contradicted by several other sources – both older and newer. The only thing that might have been true is the context of the Age of Giants, though we know that his single line of the time when Elder Dragons reigned is true.

When comparing them, he raises them above grawl but not by much. So, that may just mean he doesn’t hold the ability for sea travel as anything too amazing.

When saying the gods didn’t recognize humans, he is refering to them taking the giants magic and giving to humans. that seems like a practical acknowlegment over a gods eye view narrator which no in story character could have. the jotun were blessed while the humans were not nearly blessed to the same degree. that’s not just him being wrong, that’s him giving a true narrative of his races perspective. so, i think the real point here is that in story characters words need to be taken in perspective rather than as the voice of God.

I’m not going to continue this conversation in two separate threads at the same level of discussion.

I’m okay with moving to one.

Kevoros.2946:

Even with current technologie, isnt it a bit dumb to think that 10 people could kill an elder dragon and pretty much his whole army, even with technology, that 6 ancient races could not kill 5? the 10 people with technology should still be weaker than ONE of the ancient races,

Against the dragon alone.. I think 10 tech guys might be able to pull it off.
But the main thing is I think that to get those 10 guys TO the dragon you have to fight through his minions. To me Orr does look like a hellish place and that’s where the advantage of having technology shows itself.

So I think those ancient races failed to overcome the hordes of undead. It is pretty though job even with pact and their technology.

Well, I think the whole point is that their plan hinged on the Mursaat. And when they were needed they up and vanished leaving the other races to be run down by the dragon minions. After their failure, because of the Mursaat, Glint was freed and she hid the other races from the dragons so that they would somehow survive.

Were the Seers wiped out before the elder dragons went to sleep? I thought that the Mursaat/Seer war happened after the Mursaat returned. If the Mursaat could keep their magic when they hid, they could easily win an old grudge match against the Seers who had sealed away their magic in the bloodstone. It would also explain their powerful magic like spectral agony if they still had access to pre-bloodstone magic.

It was five ancient races not six. Jotun, Mursaat, Dwarves, Forgotten and Seers against Zhaitan, Jormag, Primdous, Kralkatorrik, Bubbles and a six unknown dragon. Tech and Unity are likely why they failed. Things would have changed over the years but no one of old races seem to have much in the way of technology. There has been no mention of the ancient races unifying with each other to fight the Dragons. Not one race could truimph against the Dragons alone.

They did unify, but they fell apart afterwards.

I think it’s six. Scholar Trueclaw’s information was a very heavy implication of there having been a sixth race at the time that no-one now knows of (in part because it got completely wiped out). One must count the uncounted and name the unnamed, after all. Six is Anet’s magic number for this series and it likely applied then as now. It’s a potential plot point for later. As to what that race could have been, one can speculate from anyhting between a previous form of the Sylvari (though they might be sixth-dragon related instead) to the giganticus lupicus (said to have gone extinct last time the dragons woke) to… anything new ANet wants to come up with.

I also very much doubt that the dragons’ ability to eat magic actually means that magic doesn’t work against them; having a lot of magic just makes you a tempting target. They aren’t immune to it. Magic is very often going to be the solution to them, I am sure we’ll see.

From what we have so far, the reason they failed is that the Mursaat fled to guarantee saving themselves instead of sticking with the alliance

Pretty sure it’s six dragons
The Priory scholar literally lists out the 5 ancient races that fought the six dragons

Really, what he literally does is list five which he specifies:

1. survived (implying there may be more that did not) and

2. That are known of. He goes out of his way, when the player says ‘only 5?’, to say that those are just the five that are known of, and that the knowledge we currently have is unreliable. He’s trying to find out more for the OoW, after all.

The whole tone of his ‘five against six is unfair’- ‘and yet…’ conversation, combined with ‘count the uncounted’ and ‘name the unnamed’, is a very heavy hint at an unknown sixth. It should be six against six. That the player can specifically ask ‘only 5’? and get a response that effectively says ‘well, maybe not’ is telling.

As soon as I saw that conversation it strongly struck me as a massive hint about the unknown sixth race that should balance the numbers. This isn’t just reading too much into things- that whole conversation is crafted to cast doubt on the numbers. That’s not to say that they will definitely follow up on it, but I think ANet intends to keep all the numbers consistent at six. Six dragons, six opponents. Having a long lost ancient race is a good mystery,

Giganticus Lupicus could be the 6th. As for why it should be six against six and whatnot, I think the reason the player character asks only 5 is because in the present age, there are at least 10 races fighting the dragons, and it might seem off that only 5 races back then were fighting. And even so, say there is a 6th ancient race that fought the six dragons, what’s the point? They still lost, so this numbers game is pretty pointless

It is specficed that is five races that fought the dragons and lived to tell the tale. There would have been more races fighting the dragons but they would have perished. Currently we have eleven races fighting against the dragons and possibly more later on the Tengu and Largos will join in. That would be thriteen against six. If Anet doesn’t care about balancing the numbers now then why would they done it before. The name the unnamed and count the uncounted is the method for order of the whispers agents to recongize each other.

Alex the Precise.3654:

Were the Seers wiped out before the elder dragons went to sleep? I thought that the Mursaat/Seer war happened after the Mursaat returned. If the Mursaat could keep their magic when they hid, they could easily win an old grudge match against the Seers who had sealed away their magic in the bloodstone. It would also explain their powerful magic like spectral agony if they still had access to pre-bloodstone magic.

It’s never stated when that war happened, but it’s highly implied that the seers were wiped out by the mursaat before they left.

Firstly, they betrayed the other races then fled.

Secondly, the mursaat supposedly returned shortly before GW1.

Thirdly, we were told by Ree Soesbee the war happened during the time of the Tome of Rubicon, written before the Six Gods’ arrival.

So the war had to be either when the ED were awake still, or the implications that the mursaat returned shortly before GW1 (the scholar says they only returned “recently” as the Unseen Ones) is wrong.

Ushgarak.1392:

I think it’s six. Scholar Trueclaw’s information was a very heavy implication of there having been a sixth race at the time that no-one now knows of (in part because it got completely wiped out).

Scholar Caterin states there were six Elder Dragons. Scholar Trueclaw states there were five races and the whole “five against six.”

Ushgarak.1392:

The whole tone of his ‘five against six is unfair’- ‘and yet…’ conversation, combined with ‘count the uncounted’ and ‘name the unnamed’, is a very heavy hint at an unknown sixth. It should be six against six. That the player can specifically ask ‘only 5’? and get a response that effectively says ‘well, maybe not’ is telling.

Count the Uncounted and Name the Unnamed are just code phrases for the Order of Whispers to identify themselves to each other. It’s always “something the <opposite of something>” and is linked to what the NPC is says, but it’s not actually relevant to the lines.

Also, you’re not entirely right.

She states that there were five sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons and survived. There’s no implication anywhere that there’s a sixth or unknown race that fought the Elder Dragons.

Of course, these are of jotun stelae, and thus only from the jotun’s perspective and thus might be false. However, as it stands, there is no indication of a sixth surviving sentient race that fought the Elder Dragons.

It just struck me, in fact, that how do we know the mursaat were the aggressors? The reason given by the Seer in Prophecies is “for you will do what my entire race could not. You will destroy the Mursaat.”

Now, it could be that the Seer is just talking about how they lost the war (after all, if you can’t survive yourself, obviously you can’t destroy the other side, except through some mutually assured destruction doomsday thing) but it does sound as if the Seers were actively trying to destroy the Mursaat rather than simply defending themselves.

What if what really happened is that the Seers got word that the Mursaat were trying to leave, and objected (because they thought the mursaat should stay and fight, because the mursaat took something with them that the other races needed, or because the mursaat weren’t willing to share their method of escape), leading to the Seers being the ones that attacked the Mursaat?

We’re told by the Durmand Priory scholars (particularly Scholar Yissa, the expert on mursaat, and Randal Greyston, the expert on seers) that the mursaat were the betrayers. Of course, this would be in turn based off of jotun and dwarven historical records.

Maybe the Seer attacked the Mursaat after the ED went back to sleep. I mean the ED woke up 10k BE, the gods arrived much later. It isn’t clear when exactly, but the forgotten were supposed to guard the creation of the gods and that was around 1700 BE, when they appeared. So we have a timeframe of 8k years for the Seer to find the Mursaat and attack them and get nearly extinct.

Further, do we know when the Jotun and dwarves started recording things? Did they start right after the ED went back to sleep? Or years later? This may sound trivial but it can change a lot. If they didn’t start recording until a century or two have passed, it means the information was told from one generation to the next. This may have led to changes in the information. This happens when information is passed on orally.

The 5 races never had such a strong bond of unity as we have now. Unity can make quite a difference. Especially in fantasy games. Plus the Mursaat fled. I don’t know their populations so I just assume there were about equal. So the Mursaat betrayal ended in a loss of 1/5th of their force. That’s a heavy blow. Plus there is morale to consider. The other 4/5th might have been demoralized because of the betrayal, which further weakened the power of the ancient races. While the Dragons still had all their power and all their minions. The number of soldiers on the side of the ancient races was shrinking, while the Dragons grew in strength. They may have corrupted parts of the ancient races as well. We don’t know. But in the end, there was no other solution but to hide in order to survive.

Issue with the seers attacking the mursaat (or vice versa) after the Elder Dragons went to sleep is that we’re told that the mursaat returned “only recently as the Unseen Ones” after they fled the Elder Dragons. Meaning they weren’t on Tyria for nearly 10,000 years.

Therefore, the war – regardless of who started it – had to occur while the Elder Dragons were awake, given what the Durmand Priory knows.

Same goes for the jotun’s fall – since the seers gathered all uncorrupted magic, and the jotun’s magic is specifically mentioned to be included , into the original Bloodstone and the jotun’s society fall is said to be related to their magic disappearing (explicitly by the Six Gods, and partially otherwise), it would imply their fall occurred during the Elder Dragons’ last rise as well (or whenever the Bloodstone was made).