Guild Wars 2

I am working on a plot for a story and need to figure out how Tyrians access the way point system. The system can be accessed anywhere, so being close to a WP isn’t necessary. There are hundreds of way points so a spell or incantation for each would require having a great memory.

Would a handheld device be out of the question?

I think a device would be more likely than a spell. Asura magic tends to have more in common with sci-fi tech than your typical wizardry. However, whenever an NPC uses a waypoint, they run up to it first, so my hunch is that lore-wise you do have to be in the near vicinity of one to use the network. Obviously, though, it’s one of the fuzziest places to try to figure out where the lore stops and the gameplay mechanics begin.

As Aaron said, NPCs run up to the waypoints – directly underneath them, in fact – when they use them (the very few times this happens) before disappearing, and they both appear and disappear directly underneath the waypoint underneath. And the only ones using them are tied to the Orders, Pact, or other important group (charr High Legions, for example).

But also as Aaron said, it’s fuzzy.

In That Old College Try and Edge of Destiny, there’s a ring-like device used for a portable asura gate, which some folks think is either the prototype for waypoints, or the required item for waypoints. I’d go with prototype, personally.

If I were to write the waypoints into a story, I’d say that they’re accessed directly. And it’s lore that using waypoints does cost money – and that it’s “magically transferred to the Arcane Council’s coffers” (which is just a pathetic and thoughtless explanation if you ask me).

Thank you for the responses.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

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If I were to write the waypoints into a story, I’d say that they’re accessed directly. And it’s lore that using waypoints does cost money – and that it’s “magically transferred to the Arcane Council’s coffers” (which is just a pathetic and thoughtless explanation if you ask me).

Konig, I am leaning in the direction of waypoints being accessed directly. I will just need to be discretely creative with how an address is selected. The fact that we can open a map and access waypoints from anywhere may be where the line between lore and game play is drawn. In general, I don’t think the distinction between game play and lore is a genuine distinction, but accept the fact that it is inherently harder for fantasy games to integrate game play and lore than it is for say a science fiction game.

As to how money is transferred, I was surprised when I came across that explanation as well. The process doesn’t have to be magical since we keep our funds in a bank.

We do NOW, sure, but originally each character could withdraw their own individual funds and carry it on their person. Lorewise, I’d presume that characters in the game still do just that. The account-wide storage of our funds is just a game mechanic for greater player convenience.

My personal explanation would be that all players (including adventurers, explorers and certain members of the military whose governments have signed contracts with the Asuran government) who use waypoints have signed up to an agreement with the Asura. They are given a magical device that allows them to use the Waypoint network, and this device is also connected to that person’s “Waypoint Account” that keeps track of how many times that player uses waypoints each week/month/year. At the end of that period, the Asura deducts that money from the person’s bank account.

Usage of the Asura Gates is different; anyone wishing to use those simply pays a fee to the operators manning the gate before going through.

I always envisioned Waypoints as being a magical interactive part of our map (that our characters presumably carry with them). For instance, if I’m standing in LA, I pull out my map, select a waypoint, and am transmitted to it. I guess the map could be considered as the “device” already discussed in the thread.

As a writer I feel your confusion here. Sometimes when my characters are very far from a wp I have them use a spell that they have to prime before they can teleport. Other times my characters reach into their pockets and pull out a “crystal” attuned to the waypoints. According to Taimi in the recent Living Story chapters all of the wps vibrate at a certain magical frequency, so, it would make sense that a player could attune to that frequency for transport.

For my Asura, she also carries a crystal that can project a map. I have a couple of these stories posted in Fan Content.

Well, until their remote resurrection powers are confirmed as canonical, which I don’t expect to happen, I see no reason to assume anything else about how they work for players (as distinct from NPCs or in stories) is anything other than gameplay convenience.

There is no resurrection. Being defeated is just equivalent of being knocked out unconscious. This was a mechanical choice in order to try and more sensitize NPC deaths – to paraphrase, Jeff (iirc) stated that having resurrection magic in the world created a case of “why can’t we just resurrect those characters?” so they went and made it so that PCs in GW2 don’t die, ever. Resurrection magic has been lost.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There is no resurrection. Being defeated is just equivalent of being knocked out unconscious. This was a mechanical choice in order to try and more sensitize NPC deaths – to paraphrase, Jeff (iirc) stated that having resurrection magic in the world created a case of “why can’t we just resurrect those characters?” so they went and made it so that PCs in GW2 don’t die, ever. Resurrection magic has been lost.

Very well, then, replace “resurrection” with “their capacity to instantly heal grievous and completely incapacitating medical traumas, such as one might receive from being punched off a cliff and subsequently falling hundreds of feet to land in a pool of molten rock.”

Think about it – we have an interactive map with waypoints. If I would write a story I would make such map a real life thing. And I would make a bank-account system linked to the map, so the money doesn’t disappear MAGICALLY.

Heading to the WPs and disappearing right underneath them is just how it was easy to code their movement. Its just pathing, directing the NPCs to move to a specific point, that point being the closest point they can get to the WP object, and thats directly underneath them. If there was an actual animation of them reaching up toward the device or doing whatever else, i would be more inclined to believe that they are more than gameplay convenience with poorly slapped-on “lore” explanation. But they just disappear.

In Guild Wars there was Map traveling. I remember this kid in Nightfall who thought that his mother invented map travel. It was written dialogue in the game, everyone had the right to believe that map traveling was actual viable lore that is common to the most common folk too. But it was never taken so seriously as to write it into actual events or quests (outside that few tutorial quests about map traveling). Escape and Escort quests would have been even more stupid than the same with WPs.

Given the fact that the “Mordremoth feeding on the Waypoint Network” situation was resolved so fast and without much of any after-effect, i feel that their inclusion in the living story plot was more like a forced effort to salvage their “lore” rather than anything that has any meaning in the long run.

Sublimatio.6981:

Think about it – we have an interactive map with waypoints. If I would write a story I would make such map a real life thing. And I would make a bank-account system linked to the map, so the money doesn’t disappear MAGICALLY.

This is where I started from and where I think I will end up. Instead of a paper map though, I like the idea of a hand held, magitech device.

Again, thank you for all the replies.

lakdav.3694:

Heading to the WPs and disappearing right underneath them is just how it was easy to code their movement. Its just pathing, directing the NPCs to move to a specific point, that point being the closest point they can get to the WP object, and thats directly underneath them. If there was an actual animation of them reaching up toward the device or doing whatever else, i would be more inclined to believe that they are more than gameplay convenience with poorly slapped-on “lore” explanation. But they just disappear.

In Guild Wars there was Map traveling. I remember this kid in Nightfall who thought that his mother invented map travel. It was written dialogue in the game, everyone had the right to believe that map traveling was actual viable lore that is common to the most common folk too. But it was never taken so seriously as to write it into actual events or quests (outside that few tutorial quests about map traveling). Escape and Escort quests would have been even more stupid than the same with WPs.

Given the fact that the “Mordremoth feeding on the Waypoint Network” situation was resolved so fast and without much of any after-effect, i feel that their inclusion in the living story plot was more like a forced effort to salvage their “lore” rather than anything that has any meaning in the long run.

I tend to be more interested in ‘commoner’ lore than ‘hero’ lore. More accurately, how the two are foils or complements of the other. From what others here have stated, there is no evidence or examples of commoners using the way point system, only the Asuran gate system.

Since the way point system is a web of interconnecting paths rather than a point-to-point path, perhaps a hero’s greater ‘magical density’ (yes, I am making that up) is needed to maintain path finding.

Psientist.6437:

Would a handheld device be out of the question?

Pretty sure Scarlet had one, so why not.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the only ones using them are tied to the Orders, Pact, or other important group (charr High Legions, for example).

Probably due to the cost of use. Don’t imagine every merchant would have the ability to wp around everywhere. Our PCs have a number of lore related reasons why they get to use it cheap though.

Psientist.6437:

I tend to be more interested in ‘commoner’ lore than ‘hero’ lore. More accurately, how the two are foils or complements of the other. From what others here have stated, there is no evidence or examples of commoners using the way point system, only the Asuran gate system.

Since the way point system is a web of interconnecting paths rather than a point-to-point path, perhaps a hero’s greater ‘magical density’ (yes, I am making that up) is needed to maintain path finding.

Well in the case of commoners you can basically expect that it isn’t economically feasible unless they have some ties to a larger organisation. We only really see WP being used in the later areas of the game (and rarely at that), in the lower level areas most of the merchants need to go from point A to point B by foot, thus necessitating the hiring of adventures (which is still probably cheaper than the WP system).
Not sure about the magical density thing. We have little lore about our PCs actually being special beyond the ability to be at the center of most major events. So we don’t have any lore stating that we’re the biggest, strongest, toughest or most magically dense.

lakdav.3694:

Heading to the WPs and disappearing right underneath them is just how it was easy to code their movement. Its just pathing, directing the NPCs to move to a specific point, that point being the closest point they can get to the WP object, and thats directly underneath them. If there was an actual animation of them reaching up toward the device or doing whatever else, i would be more inclined to believe that they are more than gameplay convenience with poorly slapped-on “lore” explanation. But they just disappear.

I have to disagree with you.

Firstly, I imagine it would be far easier to code them simply going near the waypoint rather than directly (perfectly) underneath.

Secondly, and far more important imo, it would have been easier when they had Rytlock and his engineers going through Bloodtide Coast during The Origins of Madness to simply have voiced lines saying “next is xyz waypoint” – instead it was just “let’s go” (paraphrased; still fully new voicing) and they walked over to directly underneath a waypoint, and appeared directly underneath another waypoint. Player characters also appear directly underneath a waypoint, and when waypoints are activated there is a beam of blue light going directly down and up.

If it were lore that they can use it “anywhere” like players, why don’t they show this? They had the perfect opportunity to.

Thirdly:

In Guild Wars there was Map traveling. I remember this kid in Nightfall who thought that his mother invented map travel. It was written dialogue in the game, everyone had the right to believe that map traveling was actual viable lore that is common to the most common folk too. But it was never taken so seriously as to write it into actual events or quests (outside that few tutorial quests about map traveling). Escape and Escort quests would have been even more stupid than the same with WPs.

All map travel in GW1 was a case of fourth wall breaking. Take the explanation in Prophecies. “Press M and then double click on Ascalon City” (paraphrased) – as if people had a little M tattood onto their skin or something. All of the tutorial quests (or missions for Factions/Nightfall) were full of 4th wall breaking dialogue. So that’s not exactly a good example.

The best lore example we have of map travel would be when Rurik summoned a portal connecting Drascir’s academy to Nolani Academy – and that was a bit of a process; if maptravel was so commonplace and so simple in lore, why didn’t they just press that M and double click Ascalon City? To be a bit more serious: I have always taken that portal to be the original lore concept for map travel – in Prophecies, almost all outposts, as well as almost all resurrection shrines – have some sort of design on the ground where people pop up. Most of them were the famous “rose compasses” seen on Krytan resurrection shrines, on the ground where the portal in Drascir appeared, on the ground in LA and Nolani Academy outpost which were one of the places people could spawn into the outpost.

The reason why it was “never taken seriously” is because it broke the fourth wall – unlike waypoints. In the same manner, morale boost was a fourth-wall breaking tutorial aspect, as well as the boss aura.

lakdav.3694:

Given the fact that the “Mordremoth feeding on the Waypoint Network” situation was resolved so fast and without much of any after-effect, i feel that their inclusion in the living story plot was more like a forced effort to salvage their “lore” rather than anything that has any meaning in the long run.

Everything about the waypoints is rather kitten to be honest, as if they want to make it part of lore but have no clue how to do so.

Psientist.6437:

I tend to be more interested in ‘commoner’ lore than ‘hero’ lore. More accurately, how the two are foils or complements of the other. From what others here have stated, there is no evidence or examples of commoners using the way point system, only the Asuran gate system.

Since the way point system is a web of interconnecting paths rather than a point-to-point path, perhaps a hero’s greater ‘magical density’ (yes, I am making that up) is needed to maintain path finding.

There actually is evidence of commoners using the waypoint system – in Fort Vandal, two of the Seraph have a series of dialogues, one of which is commenting on the waypoint system and how even though the problem is resolved they don’t feel safe using them anymore.

CureForLiving.5360:

Psientist.6437:

Would a handheld device be out of the question?

Pretty sure Scarlet had one, so why not.

Which reminds me, so did Kudu:

Kudu: This has been fun, but I think I’ll be teleporting to safety now. Ha!
Kudu disappears
Player: Where’s Kudu? I’m going to wrap his ears around his own neck and pull until his head pops off.
Zojja: Good plan, but Kudu’s long gone. He stole the designs for a personal teleporter ages ago. Whenever things aren’t going his way…he goes away.

(or alternative path dialogue)

Kudu: Time for me to make my trademark well-timed escape. Kill you later, Zojja!
Kudu disappears
<Character Name>: Where did Kudu go? I was going to cram his feet down his throat and make him swallow himself.
Zojja: I like a plan with no drawbacks, but Kudu’s long gone. He stole the designs for a personal teleporter ages ago.
Zojja: Whenever he’s losing an argument, or a fight, or just losing face, zap! He’s gone. Usually after getting in the last word.

This seems different from waypoints, but that may be the “personal teleporter” but.

Maybe there’s two ways to use a waypoint: direct access (standing underneath), and via personal teleporter (access anywhere). The latter is clearly rarer, given the PC didn’t know about it and Kudu had to steal it.

CureForLiving.5360:

We have little lore about our PCs actually being special beyond the ability to be at the center of most major events. So we don’t have any lore stating that we’re the biggest, strongest, toughest or most magically dense.

Said by Draithor the Drill:
“You reek of power. Where did you get it?”
->What are you talking about?
“I can smell the powers emanating from you. Is it magic? Perhaps simply raw strength? Pathfinder would love to taste your power. Would you submit to a small experiment?”

Said by Micah Fergson
“Any skills I once taught pale in comparison to the power you wield, hero. History will add your name to the long list of heroes who have left their mark on Tyria.”

CureForLiving.5360:

Psientist.6437:

Would a handheld device be out of the question?

Pretty sure Scarlet had one, so why not.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the only ones using them are tied to the Orders, Pact, or other important group (charr High Legions, for example).

Probably due to the cost of use. Don’t imagine every merchant would have the ability to wp around everywhere. Our PCs have a number of lore related reasons why they get to use it cheap though.

Psientist.6437:

I tend to be more interested in ‘commoner’ lore than ‘hero’ lore. More accurately, how the two are foils or complements of the other. From what others here have stated, there is no evidence or examples of commoners using the way point system, only the Asuran gate system.

Since the way point system is a web of interconnecting paths rather than a point-to-point path, perhaps a hero’s greater ‘magical density’ (yes, I am making that up) is needed to maintain path finding.

Well in the case of commoners you can basically expect that it isn’t economically feasible unless they have some ties to a larger organisation. We only really see WP being used in the later areas of the game (and rarely at that), in the lower level areas most of the merchants need to go from point A to point B by foot, thus necessitating the hiring of adventures (which is still probably cheaper than the WP system).
Not sure about the magical density thing. We have little lore about our PCs actually being special beyond the ability to be at the center of most major events. So we don’t have any lore stating that we’re the biggest, strongest, toughest or most magically dense.

I don’t like the argument that the way point system is just too expensive for non-heroes to use. Much of our hero’s wealth comes from selling our goods and services to non-hero vendors. Of course there would be a price point for way pointing that would exclude certain income brackets, but it doesn’t make sense to require our heroes to be also the most wealthy. Would the Asurans have built the system just to provide services to heroes? Perhaps the merchants we escort are just very cheap and/or beasts of burden can’t use the way point system.

To clarify about the hand-held device; I don’t mean a personal teleporter, but a device that allows the user to select way point destinations.

edit: The question or dilemma of escort missions may not be that complex if we accept that zone maps are abstract representations of geography. The distance between way points could be measured in tens of miles or a days journey. The non-heroes we escort could be traveling through areas or on routes not directly serviced by way points.

I really don’t get the “dilemma” of escort events.

1. All escort events fall under four categories: poor travelers needing free hire; merchants trying to make a profit (paying for waypoints would reduce said profit); a unit in an army in the battlefield; and/or utilizing beasts of burden
2. Presumably, a four-hoofed animal such as a marmox, bull, or dolyak are incapable of using waypoint devices for xyz reason – this is not unreasonable to presume, due to no doubt how complicated such would be, and more importantly we never see a non-sapient civilized race using a waypoint.
3. If waypoints cost money, then naturally a merchant looking to make the most buck over a short-distanced trip will rather go on foot than using a waypoint – more profit made. Poor people, like the couple seen outside Overlake Haven in Kessex Hills (or was it Kessex Haven?) are likely unable to afford waypoints.
4. For the army groups, they are injured which may hinder the use of waypoints or they’re heading out to uncontest waypoints (or their destination is does not have a nearby waypoint – if it does, it’ll be contested). And most cases are the last one.

Then there are the escort events – like Haze in Dry Top – where neither point of origin nor point of destination are near waypoints.

So why is “why don’t NPCs use waypoints!?” a ‘dilemma’ when there aren’t nearby waypoints, or they’re obvious in for saving money?

I would rather like to know why we dont use the waypoint right over in Camp Resolve to get back, and instead we call in an expensive chopper into great danger to extract us.

One of the freshest missions ignore them when just a few missions before we were actively saving them.

I would jump for joy if Mordremoth destroyed the waypoint system. Or at least made it so that those waypoints not located in the major population centers were rendered impractical/impossible to maintain.

Big Kitten Heroes such as our characters and certain NPCs could be tricked out with a ‘traveling bone’ — a magical implant that allows them to access the still existing waypoints in the cities, and could also serve as a ‘get out of death free’ card (see: City of Heroes), detecting a character’s imminent destruction and throwing him or her ‘out of phase’ with reality (conscious but unable to act and temporarily impervious to harm) until such time as the danger passes or someone else equipped with traveling bone magic/tech (or some equivalent) comes along and re-phases them (rez plz), or he or she elects to transport to a distant waypoint, or merely out of the immediate vicinity (short range) and (with any luck) out of harm’s way (uh oh wandering monster).

For story purposes, the long distance waypoint access of the traveling bone could be disabled by whatever psuedoscientific gobbledekitten the writers care to employ:

• Ermahgerd, someone or something is jamming our traveling bones!
• It’s an ion storm!
• A lunar modulation!
• Maguuma rays!
• Encephalomarrownic Pulse!
• Gravity’s Rainbow!
• Scarlet Cooties!
• Whatever, it’s also knocked out our long range communications. Break out the flare guns!

They really shouldn’t be afraid to simply explain something with “this is game mechanics” – and leave it with that.

I think that those who really care about lore, do not mind separating (and accepting) the differences between mechanics and story. Sadly, ANet tries to please the lore community by justifing every mechanic with lore context. It’s not an exclusive thing ANet does, many companies do, and I do understand why to a certain degree. You can’t have too many “this is mechanics” either… then you might begin to feel too distanced from the “reality”.

I appreciated that they put in work to make WPs a part of Tyria’s reality. I must admit I frowned upon it, but decided to wait a little before “raging on the forums”. I thought I’d give it a chance and some time – to see if the concept would grow on me.

To be honest, it hasn’t. Rather the opposite. I feel it’s a “reality” that shouldn’t be there – and that it greatly devalues the coherence of Tyria’s story and lore. As for reducing waypoints, they don’t need a lore reason for it… simply saying: “We decided to try reducing no. of WPs. Based on feedback, we think it could benefit to give our players a better feel of the world. Limitating choises may not always be a bad thing”. I’d be thrilled to see a statement like that.

Then we’d give it time. People would rage on the forums. And after a couple of months, maybe most of us would agree (or disagree) whether or not is was an improvement.

I gave “lore WP” some time. And: no, I still don’t think it’s a good idea. In spite of all the great effort and work that’s been put down to make a proper story about them, I still actually feel it would benefit the game to say:
No, this wasn’t a good move. We don’t want this to be lore. This is mechanics, and mechanics only. Portals exist within the game (mesmers, Drascir-Nolani, Rytlock from Barradin’s Estate to the mists, etc.), but other than that – Asura Gates are the only means of travel.

Please disregard the story plots in season 2 concerning WPs. We’d like to change it, but obviously that’s an immense task, and we don’t know if we’ll ever be able to. If not anything else; we’ll add a disclaimer pop-up at the start of the season to warn players about this part being retconned."

It’d be a terrible mess, but I think I’d actually prefer that compared to continuing into season 4 having WPs as a “real thing”.

lakdav.3694:

I would rather like to know why we dont use the waypoint right over in Camp Resolve to get back, and instead we call in an expensive chopper into great danger to extract us.

One of the freshest missions ignore them when just a few missions before we were actively saving them.

Thus the explanation:

You must be near/access the waypoints (directly) to use them.

They weren’t anywhere close to a waypoint in the mission.

kitten .

Tachenon.5270:

I would jump for joy if Mordremoth destroyed the waypoint system. Or at least made it so that those waypoints not located in the major population centers were rendered impractical/impossible to maintain.

What’s what I thought they were going to do – destroy most non-border non-city waypoints permanently, then over the months remove them from map completion in replacement for PoI/the new zones counting.

Alas, it did not happen.

I don’t think they would remove waypoints. A lot of people already regard the game as a grind, why would they make it a grind where you have to run to places on top of that? Not to mention the ensuing outcry for mounts.

Ascimator.6735:

Not to mention the ensuing outcry for mounts.

I don’t think the “outcry” for mounts has anything to do with long travel distances, rather the opposite really. When I think of mounts (though I am no supporter of them being added to GW2), I think of racing through big open fields – over long distances – on my way to another city or on a new quest.

The density of waypoints remove that sort of epic open world feel, and thus most of the epicness that comes with mounts as well (at least i.m.o.). That’s why the biggest argument against mounts is the density of waypoints.
It won’t reduce travel time much, and it wouldn’t have the same purpose as in other mmo’s.

If ANet started to reduce waypoints, that would be the best thing that ever happened for the ones wanting mounts. It would give much more meaning to have mounts in the game – and it would drastically increase the chances for a future mounts feature.

I think what you said, Titus, is just three paragraphs of saying what Ascimator meant with that one sentence.

Not to drive the topic further off-topic, but, the lack of waypoints in Silverwastes actually had praise… but no mount outcries.

Unfortunately, expressing myself in shortness has never been my best strength.
My apologies for driving this thread off topic with two lengthy posts. Please disregard them.