Guild Wars 2

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As to another point you made. The ritualist spirits were made from lightning. Guardians have zero access to lightning. Guardians make everything they do out of a blue white or flame.

Oh. My. Kitten. God
I’m sorry but after that i just can’t take anything you say seriously
Props for making me spit out my tea while reading though

Your derision adds nothing to the conversation.

In gw1 ritualists used lighting and the spirits were composed of lightning. We know the later because when they ruptured they cause lightning damage.

We know guardians make everything out of bluewhite light/flame because that is what they do in the game and in the books. And thats what monks did in the game and the books. They are clearly able to synthesize the ability of other magic bases with the light manipulations of monks.

No they were not. Lightning was there only because it was the only way Ritualist could be directly offensive (as opposed to offensive through spirits or weapon spells). It’s also to mention that the closest profession in GW2 to Rit is Ranger.
I also don’t remember Ranger spirits vanishing away with lightning emanating from them when commanding them to sacrifice themselves. The Destruction spirit, or the Storm Spirit for GW2 Rangers are the only ones who inflict lightning-based damage by themselves.
Sure Rupture inflicts Lightning damage, but that’s just to make it fit with all other offensive Ritualist skills. I don’t know where you got the idea that the spirit itself was composed of lightning.
Again, basing yourself off Game Mechanics to establish false lore is totally flawed.
Also Monks don’t manipulate light, that’s more of the field of Mesmers and illusion-making. They afflicted Holy damage, which is completely different from Guardian (unless speaking about a Human Guardian whose faith resides in the Gods)

What are you even talking about at this point “lightning was there because it was the only way ritualists could be directly offensive” wtf. There are multiple energies in the game they didn’t have to pick lightning. Then you imply that the spirits of ritualists are the same as rangers.

“Breathe life back into the fallen. The miracle of rebirth…”

A flash of blue-white light surrounded Mordakai, and his body disappeared from the ground.

some things I say are not just based in game mechanics.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@dra "It’s a pile of Elonian protection magic, mixed with a little monk training, wrapped up in some crazy ritualist hoo-ha from Cantha. A real grab bag of “you can’t hurt me”. They’re called guardians, and simply put, they mean trouble." is how the game describes the Guardian mix. The berserker also has skills that produce adrenaline and fire but don’t consume it. And the paragon is closer to zerker than to elementalist. The only thing we can see in the current guardians of monks is the light manipulation. We keep coming back to faith as the presiding force yet we know that anger adds to all three.

That line was from Sea of Sorrows, not in-game as far as I know.

Paragons never throw fireballs. In fact, paragons never actually do fire damage at all, unless they have the fire weapon modifier, and that’s clearly a function of the weapon. This may seem a nitpick, except that we have precedents of other damage types such as holy (Holy Spear) and lightning (Spirit Burn) inflicting Burning.

Berserker magical effects are focused on conjuring flame and breaking the earth in a fashion that resembles earth magic. That takes the fire magic well beyond a handful of skills that inflict Burning, and in fact, takes it well beyond what the guardian or any of the guardian’s component parts had. And none of those component parts have earth magic of that form (if you count the dervish, most of its earth skills were based on self-protection or duststorms, not smashing rocks). The only other magic that resembles what berserkers do is elementalist magic.

(Incidentally, come to think on it, the animalistic graphic on Wild Blow is also reminiscent of Ranger melee attacks like Maul, which connects it to Ranger… and, from a theory of relationships of magic that I recognise that you resist but many people in the lore community accept, thereby connects it from one level removed to Elementalist.)

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As to another point you made. The ritualist spirits were made from lightning. Guardians have zero access to lightning. Guardians make everything they do out of a blue white or flame.

Oh. My. Kitten. God
I’m sorry but after that i just can’t take anything you say seriously
Props for making me spit out my tea while reading though

Your derision adds nothing to the conversation.

In gw1 ritualists used lighting and the spirits were composed of lightning. We know the later because when they ruptured they cause lightning damage.

We know guardians make everything out of bluewhite light/flame because that is what they do in the game and in the books. And thats what monks did in the game and the books. They are clearly able to synthesize the ability of other magic bases with the light manipulations of monks.

No they were not. Lightning was there only because it was the only way Ritualist could be directly offensive (as opposed to offensive through spirits or weapon spells). It’s also to mention that the closest profession in GW2 to Rit is Ranger.
I also don’t remember Ranger spirits vanishing away with lightning emanating from them when commanding them to sacrifice themselves. The Destruction spirit, or the Storm Spirit for GW2 Rangers are the only ones who inflict lightning-based damage by themselves.
Sure Rupture inflicts Lightning damage, but that’s just to make it fit with all other offensive Ritualist skills. I don’t know where you got the idea that the spirit itself was composed of lightning.
Again, basing yourself off Game Mechanics to establish false lore is totally flawed.
Also Monks don’t manipulate light, that’s more of the field of Mesmers and illusion-making. They afflicted Holy damage, which is completely different from Guardian (unless speaking about a Human Guardian whose faith resides in the Gods)

What are you even talking about at this point “lightning was there because it was the only way ritualists could be directly offensive” wtf. There are multiple energies in the game they didn’t have to pick lightning. Then you imply that the spirits of ritualists are the same as rangers.

“Breathe life back into the fallen. The miracle of rebirth…”

A flash of blue-white light surrounded Mordakai, and his body disappeared from the ground.

some things I say are not just based in game mechanics.

Ritualist Spirits and Ranger Spirits are the same, they even have the same wiki page, they just serve different purposes

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As to another point you made. The ritualist spirits were made from lightning. Guardians have zero access to lightning. Guardians make everything they do out of a blue white or flame.

Oh. My. Kitten. God
I’m sorry but after that i just can’t take anything you say seriously
Props for making me spit out my tea while reading though

Your derision adds nothing to the conversation.

In gw1 ritualists used lighting and the spirits were composed of lightning. We know the later because when they ruptured they cause lightning damage.

We know guardians make everything out of bluewhite light/flame because that is what they do in the game and in the books. And thats what monks did in the game and the books. They are clearly able to synthesize the ability of other magic bases with the light manipulations of monks.

No they were not. Lightning was there only because it was the only way Ritualist could be directly offensive (as opposed to offensive through spirits or weapon spells). It’s also to mention that the closest profession in GW2 to Rit is Ranger.
I also don’t remember Ranger spirits vanishing away with lightning emanating from them when commanding them to sacrifice themselves. The Destruction spirit, or the Storm Spirit for GW2 Rangers are the only ones who inflict lightning-based damage by themselves.
Sure Rupture inflicts Lightning damage, but that’s just to make it fit with all other offensive Ritualist skills. I don’t know where you got the idea that the spirit itself was composed of lightning.
Again, basing yourself off Game Mechanics to establish false lore is totally flawed.
Also Monks don’t manipulate light, that’s more of the field of Mesmers and illusion-making. They afflicted Holy damage, which is completely different from Guardian (unless speaking about a Human Guardian whose faith resides in the Gods)

What are you even talking about at this point “lightning was there because it was the only way ritualists could be directly offensive” wtf. There are multiple energies in the game they didn’t have to pick lightning. Then you imply that the spirits of ritualists are the same as rangers.

“Breathe life back into the fallen. The miracle of rebirth…”

A flash of blue-white light surrounded Mordakai, and his body disappeared from the ground.

some things I say are not just based in game mechanics.

Ritualist Spirits and Ranger Spirits are the same, they even have the same wiki page, they just serve different purposes

Oh my lord. You are drawing lore by whether something is listed on the same wiki page? Ritualists spirits are from the underworld. Nature spirits are from nature.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As to another point you made. The ritualist spirits were made from lightning. Guardians have zero access to lightning. Guardians make everything they do out of a blue white or flame.

Oh. My. Kitten. God
I’m sorry but after that i just can’t take anything you say seriously
Props for making me spit out my tea while reading though

Your derision adds nothing to the conversation.

In gw1 ritualists used lighting and the spirits were composed of lightning. We know the later because when they ruptured they cause lightning damage.

We know guardians make everything out of bluewhite light/flame because that is what they do in the game and in the books. And thats what monks did in the game and the books. They are clearly able to synthesize the ability of other magic bases with the light manipulations of monks.

No they were not. Lightning was there only because it was the only way Ritualist could be directly offensive (as opposed to offensive through spirits or weapon spells). It’s also to mention that the closest profession in GW2 to Rit is Ranger.
I also don’t remember Ranger spirits vanishing away with lightning emanating from them when commanding them to sacrifice themselves. The Destruction spirit, or the Storm Spirit for GW2 Rangers are the only ones who inflict lightning-based damage by themselves.
Sure Rupture inflicts Lightning damage, but that’s just to make it fit with all other offensive Ritualist skills. I don’t know where you got the idea that the spirit itself was composed of lightning.
Again, basing yourself off Game Mechanics to establish false lore is totally flawed.
Also Monks don’t manipulate light, that’s more of the field of Mesmers and illusion-making. They afflicted Holy damage, which is completely different from Guardian (unless speaking about a Human Guardian whose faith resides in the Gods)

What are you even talking about at this point “lightning was there because it was the only way ritualists could be directly offensive” wtf. There are multiple energies in the game they didn’t have to pick lightning. Then you imply that the spirits of ritualists are the same as rangers.

“Breathe life back into the fallen. The miracle of rebirth…”

A flash of blue-white light surrounded Mordakai, and his body disappeared from the ground.

some things I say are not just based in game mechanics.

Ritualist Spirits and Ranger Spirits are the same, they even have the same wiki page, they just serve different purposes

Oh my lord. You are drawing lore by whether something is listed on the same wiki page? Ritualists spirits are from the underworld. Nature spirits are from nature. You refuse to consider lore that is from outside of the game and yet you use a wiki page layout as your proof.

The wiki page thing was added to further prove my claim. Although a Wiki page holds more weight Lore-wise than some game mechanic, but as you wish. If you want, then, just take a look at the Tablets of Wisdom in the Shing Jea Monastery. Spirits are the same.
While Ritualist forces them to make them do what he wants them to do (hence why the “BINDING ritual”), the Rangers spawns them and they’re neutral spirits (which is why they affect both allies and foes alike)
Also while Ritualist summons spirits that are the embodiment of Emotions, the Ranger will summon spirits that are the embodiment of Natural Forces. Both, to my knowledge, come from the Mists, given that they are SPIRITS.
Another strong correlation between Ranger and Ritualist could be the Ranger’s #2 Downed Skill ; Thunderclap, which can easily be associated with the Ritualist’s skills like Channeled Strike or Spirit Rift. Arguably, Lightning Reflexes also is a reference to the Ritualist’s Channeling Magic skills

draxynnic.3719:

Daniel Handler.4816:

@dra "It’s a pile of Elonian protection magic, mixed with a little monk training, wrapped up in some crazy ritualist hoo-ha from Cantha. A real grab bag of “you can’t hurt me”. They’re called guardians, and simply put, they mean trouble." is how the game describes the Guardian mix. The berserker also has skills that produce adrenaline and fire but don’t consume it. And the paragon is closer to zerker than to elementalist. The only thing we can see in the current guardians of monks is the light manipulation. We keep coming back to faith as the presiding force yet we know that anger adds to all three.

That line was from Sea of Sorrows, not in-game as far as I know.

Paragons never throw fireballs. In fact, paragons never actually do fire damage at all, unless they have the fire weapon modifier, and that’s clearly a function of the weapon. This may seem a nitpick, except that we have precedents of other damage types such as holy (Holy Spear) and lightning (Spirit Burn) inflicting Burning.

Berserker magical effects are focused on conjuring flame and breaking the earth in a fashion that resembles earth magic. That takes the fire magic well beyond a handful of skills that inflict Burning, and in fact, takes it well beyond what the guardian or any of the guardian’s component parts had. And none of those component parts have earth magic of that form (if you count the dervish, most of its earth skills were based on self-protection or duststorms, not smashing rocks). The only other magic that resembles what berserkers do is elementalist magic.

(Incidentally, come to think on it, the animalistic graphic on Wild Blow is also reminiscent of Ranger melee attacks like Maul, which connects it to Ranger… and, from a theory of relationships of magic that I recognise that you resist but many people in the lore community accept, thereby connects it from one level removed to Elementalist.)

I never thought I would see a person on this forum refuse out of game lore.

You should look over paragon again. The Anthem of Flame, the blazing finale say hello. They were not limited to weapon skills to cause burning and their names signify their concept. You seem to reinforce the opposite because a paragon can only do lightning and holy damage with a spear.

What the paragon and the warrior and even the dervish did was tied adrenaline to flame. Your skill about fireballs is closest to the Guardian skill zealot’s defense. The fireballs of elementalist cannot destroy projectiles. The flames of elementalists have no relation to adrenaline. The earth manipulation you depict is volcanic and it’s comparable skills under elementalists are under fire magic.

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Djahlat.9610:

Daniel Handler.4816:

As to another point you made. The ritualist spirits were made from lightning. Guardians have zero access to lightning. Guardians make everything they do out of a blue white or flame.

Oh. My. Kitten. God
I’m sorry but after that i just can’t take anything you say seriously
Props for making me spit out my tea while reading though

Your derision adds nothing to the conversation.

In gw1 ritualists used lighting and the spirits were composed of lightning. We know the later because when they ruptured they cause lightning damage.

We know guardians make everything out of bluewhite light/flame because that is what they do in the game and in the books. And thats what monks did in the game and the books. They are clearly able to synthesize the ability of other magic bases with the light manipulations of monks.

No they were not. Lightning was there only because it was the only way Ritualist could be directly offensive (as opposed to offensive through spirits or weapon spells). It’s also to mention that the closest profession in GW2 to Rit is Ranger.
I also don’t remember Ranger spirits vanishing away with lightning emanating from them when commanding them to sacrifice themselves. The Destruction spirit, or the Storm Spirit for GW2 Rangers are the only ones who inflict lightning-based damage by themselves.
Sure Rupture inflicts Lightning damage, but that’s just to make it fit with all other offensive Ritualist skills. I don’t know where you got the idea that the spirit itself was composed of lightning.
Again, basing yourself off Game Mechanics to establish false lore is totally flawed.
Also Monks don’t manipulate light, that’s more of the field of Mesmers and illusion-making. They afflicted Holy damage, which is completely different from Guardian (unless speaking about a Human Guardian whose faith resides in the Gods)

What are you even talking about at this point “lightning was there because it was the only way ritualists could be directly offensive” wtf. There are multiple energies in the game they didn’t have to pick lightning. Then you imply that the spirits of ritualists are the same as rangers.

“Breathe life back into the fallen. The miracle of rebirth…”

A flash of blue-white light surrounded Mordakai, and his body disappeared from the ground.

some things I say are not just based in game mechanics.

Ritualist Spirits and Ranger Spirits are the same, they even have the same wiki page, they just serve different purposes

Oh my lord. You are drawing lore by whether something is listed on the same wiki page? Ritualists spirits are from the underworld. Nature spirits are from nature. You refuse to consider lore that is from outside of the game and yet you use a wiki page layout as your proof.

The wiki page thing was added to further prove my claim. Although a Wiki page holds more weight Lore-wise than some game mechanic, but as you wish. If you want, then, just take a look at the Tablets of Wisdom in the Shing Jea Monastery. Spirits are the same.
While Ritualist forces them to make them do what he wants them to do (hence why the “BINDING ritual”), the Rangers spawns them and they’re neutral spirits (which is why they affect both allies and foes alike)
Also while Ritualist summons spirits that are the embodiment of Emotions, the Ranger will summon spirits that are the embodiment of Natural Forces. Both, to my knowledge, come from the Mists, given that they are SPIRITS.
Another strong correlation between Ranger and Ritualist could be the Ranger’s #2 Downed Skill ; Thunderclap, which can easily be associated with the Ritualist’s skills like Channeled Strike or Spirit Rift. Arguably, Lightning Reflexes also is a reference to the Ritualist’s Channeling Magic skills

I sincerely hope my own argument is not as convuluted as the connections you try to force here. Read what the tablets of shing say. They completely break the fourth wall. Your appeal to a skill type is the very reason why this whole discussion exists. Shouts are a skill type but they most definitely are not identical in form or function.

Agroman.7190:

Kalavier.1097:

Well, isn’t air magic under Dwayna’s domain anyway? Easy to see some being air elementalists.

Course, my viewpoint revolves around all the priests in the salma district hospital and at the post-tutorial house being monks due to their role as healers. I see monks as still being around, just not as prominent outside of humanity, and not playable.

Actually, especially the ones in salma district hospital are the ones I was referring to. During personal story, they use water magic to put out fires and later air magic to aid the PC and Seraph in the fight against the bandits. Which, of course, is also fitting for a priest of Dwayna.

Hm. Well, gameplay mechanics will play a part in it. For example, the “Ascalon monks” in fractals don’t really use any monk like skills that I remember.

But hey, I did say it’s my head-canon/personal belief that monks are still around, just to a lesser extent. Because honestly, the type of magic monks used/the role they filled in society wouldn’t go away (even if the gameplay reason for it has).
edit: I simply don’t see the monk, so heavily tied to Dwayna, being removed and all priests/priestesses of Dwayna being eles now :P.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I never thought I would see a person on this forum refuse out of game lore.

Considering that I was the one who initially made reference to Sea of Sorrows, specifically that passage if not as a direct quotation, I would think it was blindingly obvious that my intent was to correct the source rather than to refuse it as a valid source. That you could interpret otherwise, in combination with other observations, suggests to me that continuing this discussion is simply not going to be productive.

@Djahlet: In this case, I think there’s a distinction made between the types of spirits. The spirits invoked by rangers are spirits that inhabit the natural world (or, possibly more accurately, the portions of the Mists that overlap and mirror Tyria) and the magical effects they generate is elemental magic. The spirits invoked by ritualists are spirits of the dead or of more abstract concepts and emotions, and appear to come from ‘deeper’ in the Mists – the energy they use is very different to that of ranger spirits. The lightning-oriented skills of GW2 rangers appear to be part of a general theme of lower-key elemental magic that also includes fire (Flame Trap), water (Frost Trap, Winter’s Bite, Healing Spring) and earth (Signet of Stone, Muddy Terrain).

draxynnic.3719:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I never thought I would see a person on this forum refuse out of game lore.

Considering that I was the one who initially made reference to Sea of Sorrows, specifically that passage if not as a direct quotation, I would think it was blindingly obvious that my intent was to correct the source rather than to refuse it as a valid source. That you could interpret otherwise, in combination with other observations, suggests to me that continuing this discussion is simply not going to be productive.

@Djahlet: In this case, I think there’s a distinction made between the types of spirits. The spirits invoked by rangers are spirits that inhabit the natural world (or, possibly more accurately, the portions of the Mists that overlap and mirror Tyria) and the magical effects they generate is elemental magic. The spirits invoked by ritualists are spirits of the dead or of more abstract concepts and emotions, and appear to come from ‘deeper’ in the Mists – the energy they use is very different to that of ranger spirits. The lightning-oriented skills of GW2 rangers appear to be part of a general theme of lower-key elemental magic that also includes fire (Flame Trap), water (Frost Trap, Winter’s Bite, Healing Spring) and earth (Signet of Stone, Muddy Terrain).

My point was that making such a comment is semantic for the lore of the novels and the lore of the books are the same universe. Your desire to correct is more evident than your desire for substance. You provide statements that the burning was based in weapon skills yet the Anthem of Flame among other skills contradicts this. You respond to the first sentence of a post and not the paragraphs within it. In another thread you correct points I’ve made yet you also make points that are presumptuous. Upon being challenged by other posters you retreat to that grounds that you espoused what you observed over that which is hypothetical.

Well we have observed paragons use adrenaline. We have observed that their non weapon uses of energy are related to flame. We have observed that for dervish flame and adrenaline are linked through bathalazar. We have observed that the game countless times equates adrenaline and anger. We have observed the relation between the smiting prayers and wrath.

Lets take what you have observed. You observed that the berserker summons rocks and you call this earth magic. Yet developers refer to them as magma, you should know full well that magma is fire magic not earth.

And then you cite the theory that rangers are from the same school of magic as elementalists. Which makes all the sense in the world given the spirits and the space magic. Because causing plants to grow is elemental apparently. A theoretical assertion, but definitely not an observed.

It’s only okay when you are theoretical it seems. You can say that spirits perform elemental magic as if it were fact, but others are not allowed.

I actually had a full reply written out. Still have it saved, in fact, since I wrote it out somewhere where I wasn’t able to log in. I will observe that your claims regarding the volcanic nature of berserker fire skills actually demonstrate my point – volcanic effects have previously only been seen in elementalist magic (both fire and earth). I don’t think you could have failed to realise that was a point that would be easily rebutted, which makes me wonder why you tried bringing it up in the first place…

Then I thought about how you’ve directly or indirectly insulted those who’ve engaged with you in this thread. And in the druid lore thread you opened. And how you started a thread basically asking for more suicides in the game, which for many people is a touchy topic. And so on.

Coupled with the fact that I don’t think I’ve seen anyone else in this thread actually agree with you, I don’t think there is anything to be gained in continuing this discussion.

If anyone else wants to see the rebuttal that I’ve already written, let me know and I will provide it, but only because I’ve already got it written out. However, I don’t intend to expend any additional energy here.

Kalavier.1097:

Hm. Well, gameplay mechanics will play a part in it. For example, the “Ascalon monks” in fractals don’t really use any monk like skills that I remember.

But hey, I did say it’s my head-canon/personal belief that monks are still around, just to a lesser extent. Because honestly, the type of magic monks used/the role they filled in society wouldn’t go away (even if the gameplay reason for it has).
edit: I simply don’t see the monk, so heavily tied to Dwayna, being removed and all priests/priestesses of Dwayna being eles now :P.

I agree completely with your opinion. But I’d also say that it’s more than just mechanics if we see the priests putting out fires with water magic that cannot be done by players in the same way. I believe that is more ambient stuff than mechanics. Still, you’re right – it doesn’t make much sense that monks are completely gone, especially among priests. We have been told that more effective ways to achieve similar magical effects have been found, but clerics are very traditional people. So I believe it’s fair to say that we have both monks, unarmored guardians and elementalists among the priests of Dwayna.

draxynnic.3719:

I actually had a full reply written out. Still have it saved, in fact, since I wrote it out somewhere where I wasn’t able to log in. I will observe that your claims regarding the volcanic nature of berserker fire skills actually demonstrate my point – volcanic effects have previously only been seen in elementalist magic (both fire and earth). I don’t think you could have failed to realise that was a point that would be easily rebutted, which makes me wonder why you tried bringing it up in the first place…

Then I thought about how you’ve directly or indirectly insulted those who’ve engaged with you in this thread. And in the druid lore thread you opened. And how you started a thread basically asking for more suicides in the game, which for many people is a touchy topic. And so on.

Coupled with the fact that I don’t think I’ve seen anyone else in this thread actually agree with you, I don’t think there is anything to be gained in continuing this discussion.

If anyone else wants to see the rebuttal that I’ve already written, let me know and I will provide it, but only because I’ve already got it written out. However, I don’t intend to expend any additional energy here.

This is upsetting. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and went through the entirety of both threads about druids and I saw no insults I had made. Please use direct quotation or this is strawman. I looked at the thread asking for more suicides and I saw that in every breath that I advocates an increase I also mentioned the general lack of emotional depth of percieved. And what benefit do we have avoiding touchy subjects in this forum like suicide but not avoiding touchy one like race or sexuality. I don’t see why I am being held to a double standard for touchy topics
Volcanic effects have never been seen in earth magic. The sole skill I think people could refer to is eruption and that shakes the ground it does not relate to lava or magma.

You seem to have some personal fault with me. If I made some wrong allow me to correct it but this is getting ridiculous.

Agroman.7190:

Kalavier.1097:

Hm. Well, gameplay mechanics will play a part in it. For example, the “Ascalon monks” in fractals don’t really use any monk like skills that I remember.

But hey, I did say it’s my head-canon/personal belief that monks are still around, just to a lesser extent. Because honestly, the type of magic monks used/the role they filled in society wouldn’t go away (even if the gameplay reason for it has).
edit: I simply don’t see the monk, so heavily tied to Dwayna, being removed and all priests/priestesses of Dwayna being eles now :P.

I agree completely with your opinion. But I’d also say that it’s more than just mechanics if we see the priests putting out fires with water magic that cannot be done by players in the same way. I believe that is more ambient stuff than mechanics. Still, you’re right – it doesn’t make much sense that monks are completely gone, especially among priests. We have been told that more effective ways to achieve similar magical effects have been found, but clerics are very traditional people. So I believe it’s fair to say that we have both monks, unarmored guardians and elementalists among the priests of Dwayna.

I would also assume that the monks are still there.

Mordakai gritted his teeth. With the monks and clerics gone, Ascalon’s Chosen had no more healing magic left. Their prayers to Dwayna would reach only deaf ears.

Those who fell in battle now would not return.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Battle_for_Kyhlo

This particular segment from from the story speaks to the concept of monk and clerics being separate concepts. There is a possibility that it signified gender but that seems unlikely given the existence of Dwarven clerics. This would support the idea that the of Dwayna healing crowd would not be limited to just elementalists.

But now that at least that part is somewhat settled. I would return to kavalier’s earlier point that the literal interpretation of a shout that heals seems to invalidate that monk/cleric/priestess ability to heal.

Kalavier.1097:

draxynnic.3719:

Agroman is correct. While it would have been a nice touch for priestesses of Dwayna to behave as lightly-armoured guardians in combat, in practice, every priestess of Dwayna I’ve seen in combat uses elementalist effects.

A good way to observe this is when one of the wasps in the Fields of Ruin delegation event goes too close to the healing tents, and the priestess of Dwayna starts throwing lightning spheres at it. (Which isn’t actually a skill available to PC elementalists either – it might have been in an earlier iteration of what became air scepter – but it’s certainly not a monk-esque skill.)

Well, isn’t air magic under Dwayna’s domain anyway? Easy to see some being air elementalists.

Course, my viewpoint revolves around all the priests in the salma district hospital and at the post-tutorial house being monks due to their role as healers. I see monks as still being around, just not as prominent outside of humanity, and not playable.

Came across this guy while researching another project. He describes himself as a ‘monk’, although whether he’s actually a member of the profession in the GW1 sense, I’m not sure. Might have to see if it’s possible to get him into combat and see what he does.

Similarly, I don’t recall seeing the inhabitants of Eldvin Monastery fighting, although it’s been a while.

I have an idea for what shouts are and do.

Conditions like Cripple and Immobilise, are Hindering Magics. and shouts like Shake it off that remove it are “breaking the spell”, so removing conditions is breaking a hindering spell. A guardian using stand your ground would give their allies a magical ability to stand up against the next few attempts to “crowd control” them like stun or knockdown. and Damaging shouts or ones that debuff an enemy

Like Reaper’s Chilled to the bone, Tempest’s Flash Freeze and Warrior’s On My mark, would possibly be a spell that needs to be heard. but to them having a “range”. you need to within range of the chanting to be affected. such as if you had a deaf character, then it’s highly possible that they wouldn’t be affected by any shouts.

So in my opinion: Shouts are the characters tapping into their own magical energies that we know EVERYTHING has, ( banners from nowhere, endless kits on engie) and utilising it in some way, but the ones that are going to be affected NEED TO HEAR THE WORDS. So far we haven’t met a “Deaf” character in GW2, it’s possible that at some point we meet an enemy race that is deaf, which makes them unaffected by shouts of any kind. But I think Hearing the magic is important. You can dodge or block the spell/shout in some cases. such as you can dodge but not block “Fear me!”, but I believe you can block Flash Freeze ( please correct me if I’m wrong), due to the point at which the shout radiates from. Damaging shouts centre on the caster. while hindering shouts centre on the enemy.

To be completely honest, I’ve only read some fo the firts page, so someone may have already said this, and I don’t have any full “proof” of shouts needing to be heard to be in effect other than the “range” indicator.

Kuulpb.5412:

I have an idea for what shouts are and do.

Conditions like Cripple and Immobilise, are Hindering Magics. and shouts like Shake it off that remove it are “breaking the spell”, so removing conditions is breaking a hindering spell. A guardian using stand your ground would give their allies a magical ability to stand up against the next few attempts to “crowd control” them like stun or knockdown. and Damaging shouts or ones that debuff an enemy

So my warrior swinging her weapon and crippling somebody is casting a spell?

Like Reaper’s Chilled to the bone, Tempest’s Flash Freeze and Warrior’s On My mark, would possibly be a spell that needs to be heard. but to them having a “range”. you need to within range of the chanting to be affected. such as if you had a deaf character, then it’s highly possible that they wouldn’t be affected by any shouts.

Reaper’s shouts can be assumed to simply be a verbal add-on to an actual spell. Ele shouts it seems are more of them screaming “HA HA, YOU ARE FROZE!”. Warrior’s shouts are morale related/inspirational shouts/commands.

So in my opinion: Shouts are the characters tapping into their own magical energies that we know EVERYTHING has, ( banners from nowhere, endless kits on engie) and utilising it in some way, but the ones that are going to be affected NEED TO HEAR THE WORDS. So far we haven’t met a “Deaf” character in GW2, it’s possible that at some point we meet an enemy race that is deaf, which makes them unaffected by shouts of any kind. But I think Hearing the magic is important. You can dodge or block the spell/shout in some cases. such as you can dodge but not block “Fear me!”, but I believe you can block Flash Freeze ( please correct me if I’m wrong), due to the point at which the shout radiates from. Damaging shouts centre on the caster. while hindering shouts centre on the enemy.

Taking game mechanics too literally. Do note that in lore, most rifles and gunpowder weapons are akin to early RL gunpowder weapons, meaning they do not rapid fire. at all.

To be completely honest, I’ve only read some fo the firts page, so someone may have already said this, and I don’t have any full “proof” of shouts needing to be heard to be in effect other than the “range” indicator.

I think you are taking certain mechanics in the game a bit too literally lore-wise, and applying other aspects too heavily. Warriors tapping into a bit of primal magic to make their hammer smash create a shockwave(without doing it on purpose, intentionally, or actually planning it) is one thing. Them actively ‘casting’ spells by shouting is another.

I see what you’re saying, But i’m not saying “casting a spell”, I am saying it is a Hindering spell that can be removed, due to immobilise has the obviously purpley chains tying you down, so it’s some form of spell or magic. and if you can shout to remove the chains then you are breaking the spell of somekind.

I also see what you say by me mentioning game mechanic sin lore, but there are Game mechanics related to lore, such as Waypointing is Lore, Taimi created waypoints using less magic, so, Engineers, warriors etc have some form of magic that allows them to use such strange things with ease, such as again, banners form the sky, endless grenades and kits, an endless ammo. Their form of Magic could be they don’t use “Ammo” in the natural sense, but some form of ammo that can be fired multiple times. From what i recall I don’t see any NPCs claiming about lack of ammo to fire their rifle etc, but I may have missed it.

Please tell me if you find one

Guns in the books are described as regular gunpowder weapons. No magic rapid fire ammo there.

Also, I agree with Kalavier. I’d add to this that it is perhaps possible that primal magic can alter how loud or how ferocious a voice is, but how much that affects the opponent/ally still depends on that person and is no direct use of magic.

draxynnic.3719:

Came across this guy while researching another project. He describes himself as a ‘monk’, although whether he’s actually a member of the profession in the GW1 sense, I’m not sure. Might have to see if it’s possible to get him into combat and see what he does.

Similarly, I don’t recall seeing the inhabitants of Eldvin Monastery fighting, although it’s been a while.

I believe he calls himself a monk because he is from the monastery rather than being a member of the monk profession. I’ve seen him fighting once, I think he used the same lightning spells as the other NPC priests of Dwayna.

Kuulpb.5412:

I see what you’re saying, But i’m not saying “casting a spell”, I am saying it is a Hindering spell that can be removed, due to immobilise has the obviously purpley chains tying you down, so it’s some form of spell or magic. and if you can shout to remove the chains then you are breaking the spell of somekind.

I also see what you say by me mentioning game mechanic sin lore, but there are Game mechanics related to lore, such as Waypointing is Lore, Taimi created waypoints using less magic, so, Engineers, warriors etc have some form of magic that allows them to use such strange things with ease, such as again, banners form the sky, endless grenades and kits, an endless ammo. Their form of Magic could be they don’t use “Ammo” in the natural sense, but some form of ammo that can be fired multiple times. From what i recall I don’t see any NPCs claiming about lack of ammo to fire their rifle etc, but I may have missed it.

Please tell me if you find one

The endless ammo is the mechanic aspect. If they had infinite ammo then we would not see rangers with quivers.

A good point you bring up though is what the difference between being crippled by a sword vs hex.

That is I something I would like to know.

Because by all accounts shouts removing a crippled condition caused by a weapons seems like healing magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Because by all accounts shouts removing a crippled condition caused by a weapons seems like healing magic.

Or mechanics as well.

Agroman.7190:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Because by all accounts shouts removing a crippled condition caused by a weapons seems like healing magic.

Or mechanics as well.

This is true. Where do you see the difference if any?

I’m just saying that could be pure mechanics in the same way rapid fire/endless ammo is.

Also, it should perhaps be noted that in extreme situations, motivational shouting alone can enable people to do things in spite of severe injury that should normally stop them from it. Of course, that doesn’t remove said injury permanently, but you catch my meaning.

Agroman.7190:

I’m just saying that could be pure mechanics in the same way rapid fire/endless ammo is.

Also, it should perhaps be noted that in extreme situations, motivational shouting alone can enable people to do things in spite of severe injury that should normally stop them from it. Of course, that doesn’t remove said injury permanently, but you catch my meaning.

I know. I was just asking what you personally look for when you are determining lore vs mechanic.

We’ve had that discussion before, and my answer is still the same. It’s entirely situational. Personally, I tend to look more at thematic display of a skill rather than what it does mechanically. I never said anything about “lore vs mechanics”.

Agroman.7190:

We’ve had that discussion before, and my answer is still the same. It’s entirely situational. Personally, I tend to look more at thematic display of a skill rather than what it does mechanically. I never said anything about “lore vs mechanics”.

Looking back through comments it seems we have. I am bad at remembering names.

I had another question but the concert is starting.

Edit: If someone is not mechanics, isn’t it then lore?
I suppose some exceptions could be April fools day-esque aspects of the story.

It seems like a very interesting form of analysis.

What do you draw on for your thematic assessment?

For example. Elementalist when using concepts such as lava or magma do so in fire. The Elementalist eruption shakes the ground more akin to an earthquake, it does not produce lava.

We see berserker summoning magma rocks. What are these rocks thematically? What would they tell you about the class?

Kuulpb.5412:

I see what you’re saying, But i’m not saying “casting a spell”, I am saying it is a Hindering spell that can be removed, due to immobilise has the obviously purpley chains tying you down, so it’s some form of spell or magic. and if you can shout to remove the chains then you are breaking the spell of somekind.

I also see what you say by me mentioning game mechanic sin lore, but there are Game mechanics related to lore, such as Waypointing is Lore, Taimi created waypoints using less magic, so, Engineers, warriors etc have some form of magic that allows them to use such strange things with ease, such as again, banners form the sky, endless grenades and kits, an endless ammo. Their form of Magic could be they don’t use “Ammo” in the natural sense, but some form of ammo that can be fired multiple times. From what i recall I don’t see any NPCs claiming about lack of ammo to fire their rifle etc, but I may have missed it.

Please tell me if you find one

There is a charr npc, I forget exactly where, but she (I think it’s a she) mentions the fact that they are having difficulties getting supply convoys out to the frontlines of combat against the flame legion and such, meaning those troops are low on ammo, weapons, and other supplies. Especially newer guns and other weapons being built in the black citadel. IIRC, in Edge of Destiny, there is a minor mention of it where the charr fire their axe-rifles once, then switch to using them as axes in close combat.

SOME game mechanics are lore and canon. The waypoints are one example (though all evidence points to you having to be directly under one to access the network), but that purple chains with immobilize is more of a “Hey, this visual is here to quickly show you an immobilized character.” Likewise, my warrior throwing a sword, then swinging said sword at a different enemy with the ability to tear the exact same sword from the guy she threw it at (while engaged in combat with another).

“Banners from the sky, endless ammo, infinite kits and grenades.” are all game mechanics, with little evidence of them being such in the lore at all. Banners are, after all, something that you’d see carried by a dedicated soldier carrying in an army in the bow and sword era of combat.

@Daniel:
The example is perfectly fine, so I’ll stick with it, although there is not much to say about it.
What does it tell us? Elementalists and berserkers both make use of magma rocks. That’s it. What can we do with it? Speculate. Because that’s essentially all we are doing here.

I’m not saying that one cannot sometimes look at what a skill does mechanically, which boons or conditions it creates, etc., etc. to determine what exactly it does lore-wise. This is easy when we are talking about skills that are clearly magical spells. Warrior/ranger and even a few of the guardian shouts are not clearly magical, but still, they need to be just as viable mechanically as spells are, so they are balanced that way to do what they do. And this is the reason why I tend to raise an eyebrow whenever people try to take gameplay mechanics on a rather non-magical skill and try to explain it all with magic if there are other ways of interpreting that do not frantically stick with mechanics (e.g. shouts that simply rally people based on pushing them to their limits in extreme situations). Of course, that does not mean there is no possibility of magic being combined with that.