The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs
Speaking of which: The Living Story Needs More Side Plots!
I broke the +1 for this part of your post.
We do need side plots, after all it isn’t like Rata Sum is doing nothing or Hoelbrak is sitting on their thumbs while Scarlet goes around.Side plots would help seed the next villain for the future season.
..and plot twists!!
Yeah, like Demmi Beetlestone is actually a spy for her father. ^^
A topic that was bought up a few times here is “idiot ball” and “idiot plot”. I will point out when this plot device is acceptable and when it is not.
Acceptable:
1) Only 1, or a few, character(s) are dumb.
Everyone makes mistakes. It happens, and the readers understand this. In fact a character’s mistake can be used to develop that character.
However when everyone inside the plot is an idiot, and this is required for the story to work, the plot becomes an idiot plot.
The size of the idiot population is important in making the plot believable.
2) The character admits afterwards that he is an idiot. People around the character points out that he/she is an idiot.
After the character made a major mistake, it is very important for he/she to owe up to that mistake. He/she may or may not be punished. But the point is that said character cannot act like nothing happened.
The side characters around that character should also point out the mistake to the said character. These side characters cannot act like nothing happened.
[Naruto spoiler]
In Naruto, Kabuto can summon any dead ninja to fight for him. However when he faced Itachi, Kabuto didn’t summon any dead ninja to help himself.
Kabuto was given the idiot ball.
However Kabuto right afterwards said “I never imagine that anyone would find me.”
This implies that Kabuto sent all his undead to the front lines, because he didn’t expect his location to be found. Kabuto was wrong, but he owe up to it.
[/Naruto spoiler]
Non acceptable:
1) Everyone is dumb.
2) No one (or just very few) people point out that dumb character’s mistakes. That character never admitted to being an idiot.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Wow! George R.R. Martin has graced us with his presence and decided to tell us all how to write. Because apparently he thinks we all are idiots.
Speaking of which: The Living Story Needs More Side Plots!
I broke the +1 for this part of your post.
We do need side plots, after all it isn’t like Rata Sum is doing nothing or Hoelbrak is sitting on their thumbs while Scarlet goes around.Side plots would help seed the next villain for the future season.
..and plot twists!!
Yeah, like Demmi Beetlestone is actually a spy for her father. ^^
My wish: she backstabs her father and takes his place.
“You taught me the family business all too well father.”
Meanwhile Jennah whistles nonchalantly and ignores it so long as Demmi is loyal to her.
To a point but i do not play mmorpg for lore its just nice to have an ok story there. Mmorpgs for me is more about playing with other ppl when i played ff11 i had no ideal what was going on in that game but i enjoyed it because of the ppl i played with and i love there skill-chain system.
For realty good lore and stores its best to keep with single players games or at least games made to be played alone with online drop in. When you add another person in person or adding in a lot of ppl into a game it takes a lot away from the story because the story is not what the game is telling you its the story your making with the ppl your playing with.You will find more GW1 players who where big time into lore tend to play the game solo or used it like a drop in game and not an mmorpg that every one keeps trying to forces GW1 to fit into (its was not an mmorpg so there are just simply truth that could and could not be done with it).
For your information, it is physically impossible for you to have a “story” with the people you play with.
Why?
You are the solo commander of the Pact, TreeHero’s right hand man.
The people you played with are also all the solo commander of the Pact, TreeHero’s right hand man.You cannot possibly exist in the universe of the people you played with. Neither can they exist in yours.
So you and them playing together was purely a game play mechanic. That didn’t actually happen in the story.
Do I like this system? Nope. GW1 was much better. And it was simple:
GW1: You are all Chosen. You are all Closer to the Star. You are all Ascended.
GW2: You and you alone is TreeHero’s right hand man.Small wording. Big difference.
I sign every word of this.
Personal story needs to be rewritten to include multiplayer dialogue options.
SWTOR does this well. Look at them and make GW2 like that.
A topic that was bought up a few times here is “idiot ball” and “idiot plot”. I will point out when this plot device is acceptable and when it is not.
Acceptable:
1) Only 1, or a few, character(s) are dumb.Everyone makes mistakes. It happens, and the readers understand this. In fact a character’s mistake can be used to develop that character.
However when everyone inside the plot is an idiot, and this is required for the story to work, the plot becomes an idiot plot.
The size of the idiot population is important in making the plot believable.
2) The character admits afterwards that he is an idiot. People around the character points out that he/she is an idiot.
After the character made a major mistake, it is very important for he/she to owe up to that mistake. He/she may or may not be punished. But the point is that said character cannot act like nothing happened.
The side characters around that character should also point out the mistake to the said character. These side characters cannot act like nothing happened.
[Naruto spoiler]
In Naruto, Kabuto can summon any dead ninja to fight for him. However when he faced Itachi, Kabuto didn’t summon any dead ninja to help himself.
Kabuto was given the idiot ball.
However Kabuto right afterwards said “I never imagine that anyone would find me.”
This implies that Kabuto sent all his undead to the front lines, because he didn’t expect his location to be found. Kabuto was wrong, but he owe up to it.
[/Naruto spoiler]
Non acceptable:
1) Everyone is dumb.
2) No one (or just very few) people point out that dumb character’s mistakes. That character never admitted to being an idiot.
A good example of this in the personal story in the part where a sylvari scouting brigade is sent out to scout the road. That’s their ONLY job. And they FORGOT to tell you about the bloody MINES, which immediately disable the lead tank.
And after that everyone acts A-Okay, and nobody says anything to the sylvari scouts. In fact, right after that, a character remarks “Charr artillery, asura’s knowledge, and sylvari reconnaissance? Couldn’t get any better.”
Yes, it could. The scouts could admit they messed up and be better, lol.
Incidentally, someone earlier brought up the detective story analogy, and how people don’t like stories that are about figuring out stuff in the past (citing Sherlock being the only well-known fictional detective as evidence). That’s been annoying me, but I hadn’t been able to quite form an explanation as to why. Now, however, I’ve been able to put my finger on it:
First, as one of the resident, if less active than previously, lorophiles, I do actually enjoy digging into the past as much as speculating on the future.
Second, the detective story genre is much bigger than Sherlock. Sherlock, or to be more precisely Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, is well known because he’s essentially the Tolkein of the genre – the ur-example that everyone, regardless of whether they’re familiar with the genre or not, is familiar with or at least has heard of. However, there are others that are reasonably well-known – I’m only peripherally interested in the genre myself and have mostly picked it up through watching detective shows that happened to be on air so I remember the characters rather than the writers, but Cadfael, Poirot, and Miss Marple all come to mind. More recently, there’s Bones and all those various CSI shows, which are much more popular among the general populace – if not MMO players – than the fantasy genre. It’s a big genre – there’s a reason why “the butler did it” is such a well-known cliche, and which other genre would you expect that cliche to come up?
The distinction is that good detective shows give enough clues along the way to at least present a credible illusion that the audience could figure it out before the hero(es). Sometimes they’ll be right, sometimes they’ll be wrong, sometimes there’ll be one clue that clinches it that doesn’t arrive until the climax, sometimes they’ll be deliberately mislead, sometimes they’ll make a blind guess and just happen to get it right – but the audience at least feels they’ve had a chance.
In the case of the Living Story: Regarding Scarlet’s aims, I think we got to that point around the time we found out Scarlet was involved in the Thaumanova reactor disaster and what she learned there. Some people had guessed it earlier, but back then there were so many theories flying around and so little to actually go on that the infinite monkeys principle applied – pretty much every reasonable possibility and several unreasonable ones had been put forth, and with so many theories somebody had to be right.
However, there are still a lot of mysteries we haven’t really got anything on. We know what the dredge and charr get out of the Molten Alliance, but not how that alliance formed. We still have no idea how she recruited the Aetherblades, or what her connection is with the steam creatures (and therefor the Watchknights) is.
@ draxynnic.3719
I think the problem is:
The Scarlet story arc was never designed to be a detective story.
A story cannot just becomes a detective story. It have to be built from the ground up to be a detective story. There has to be more than enough clues around for the players/readers to figure out what actually happened in the past.
I don’t think this is the case with the Scarlet story at all. The author of Scarlet wanted the players to guess what will happen in the future, not the past.
The “future” turns out to be an attack on LA, and perhaps the awaking of the Jungle Elder Dragon.
I guess what I am trying to say is, unless the authors had planned for a story to be a detective story right from the start, do not bother hiding anything from the past. About the past, lay absolutely everything out in the open. So there is no guessing needed on the players/readers.
Detective stories are very hard to write well. This is the truth. There are tons more fantasy, sci-fi and other story types out there for good reason.
I’m basically with CHIPS on this one. Everybody in the story is massively stupid apart from Scarlet. It’s not just the heroes either. Did the krait, who were forced out of their ancestral home by the deep sea dragon, really want to help Scarlet unleash the jungle dragon? I can’t see the flame legion getting their cause advanced by that either and the dredge won’t be looking forward to massive worms burrowing through their caverns. The alliances are all badly explained with no characterization. The part with Scarlet building massive gadgets to blow up a city to release a dragon is fine, perfectly alright. The Watchwork and Jubilee story is ok as well. Everything else remains completely unbelievable.
I only play spvp…which is in a pretty horrible state. My only other draw to the game is the Lore. I’ve loved all the updates with the Lore since Tower of Nightmares, but I particularly liked the lore involved with Bazaar of the 4 Winds (Glint) and even the rivalry seen between Kiel/Evon.
So yeah, basically, Lore is super important to me. It looks like ANET used this year as a learning experiment, and improved upon their mistakes as the story went on.
Did the krait, who were forced out of their ancestral home by the deep sea dragon, really want to help Scarlet unleash the jungle dragon? I can’t see the flame legion getting their cause advanced by that either and the dredge won’t be looking forward to massive worms burrowing through their caverns. The alliances are all badly explained with no characterization. The part with Scarlet building massive gadgets to blow up a city to release a dragon is fine, perfectly alright. The Watchwork and Jubilee story is ok as well. Everything else remains completely unbelievable.
Whaaat?! I thought the Toxic Alliance was VERY well-thought out, tragic even. If you know anything about the krait, you know they’re a very religious group of folk, and xenophobic as well. I don’t have the Dev post to quote here, but basically, Scarlet seduced them into believing she could bring their profit back. They succumbed to the alliance, and if you notice, they’re not normal krait anymore… thus, they can’t really return home to the other krait… I almost feel sorry for this villainous race as they truly were duped!
If there are other Krait……
The Toxic Courtiers might offer more Krait Obelisk Shards to the Krait who need them to gain a direct link to their Prophets.
The Molten Alliance continues as the leaders backstabs the Dredge Leadership and enslaves the Dredge.
I do not know Mai Trin’s current plans with Aetherblades yet I assume they might be interesting…
“Whaaat?! I thought the Toxic Alliance was VERY well-thought out, tragic even. If you know anything about the krait, you know they’re a very religious group of folk, and xenophobic as well. I don’t have the Dev post to quote here, but basically, Scarlet seduced them into believing she could bring their profit back. They succumbed to the alliance, and if you notice, they’re not normal krait anymore… thus, they can’t really return home to the other krait… I almost feel sorry for this villainous race as they truly were duped!”
No, these are evil alliances. Once they realize they have been duped, misled, betrayed, short changed, they should be looking to backstab Scarlet and run off with her technology to further their own gains. The Nightmare Court would want to seduce her into nightmare. The main trait of pirates is they go off into the unknown and look after themselves. The Inquest view everyone as expendable and that includes Scarlet. Everyone should be looking to advance their own selfish cause instead of slavishly following suicidal orders. What we are shown in game are supposedly disparate xenophobic races trusting each other like brotherly angels.
If there are other Krait……
The Toxic Courtiers might offer more Krait Obelisk Shards to the Krait who need them to gain a direct link to their Prophets.
The Molten Alliance continues as the leaders backstabs the Dredge Leadership and enslaves the Dredge.
I do not know Mai Trin’s current plans with Aetherblades yet I assume they might be interesting…
There are other krait but the most liberal thinking ones may already be toxic alliance. So the krait who haven’t already joined may not have done so because they are largely unwilling to work with any non-(regular)krait. Shards or no shards.
“Scarlet proved she could bring back a prophet to their satisfaction (whether it was actually a prophet or not, no one really knows, but the toxic krait believe it was). And they can’t exactly go join other normal krait. How do you think regular xenophobic krait would feel about these toxic ones?” – Angel McCoy
What we are shown in game are supposedly disparate xenophobic races trusting each other like brotherly angels.
I don’t think there is near enough details on the inner working politics between the alliances and Scarletts chain of command to say we’ve been shown that they trust each other at all. There may well be political attemps to subvert power but we are given an outside view from races that aren’t part of the alliance. So we wouldn’t see any of the trust or distrust that may be going on behind the battles lines.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
Gotta disagree with you there Stoop, especially in the case of the Toxic Alliance. Again, the toxic krait are the ones presumably being duped by both the Nightmare/Scarlet. Everyone has something to gain out of the alliance EXCEPT the Krait. That was the point I was making.
We see what the Aether Blades have done by going into hiding. I think a lot of them broke off from Scarlet after previous failures. The ones we see fighting in Lion’s Arch are probably the other half who still believe in Scarlet’s cause. You ever wonder why we didn’t see Mai??
As Dustfinger says, we don’t know the inter-politics at play between the alliances, but I think it’s foolhardy to assume these alliances are blindly following Scarlet except in the case of the krait.
@ draxynnic.3719
I think the problem is:
The Scarlet story arc was never designed to be a detective story.
A story cannot just becomes a detective story. It have to be built from the ground up to be a detective story. There has to be more than enough clues around for the players/readers to figure out what actually happened in the past.
I don’t think this is the case with the Scarlet story at all. The author of Scarlet wanted the players to guess what will happen in the future, not the past.
The “future” turns out to be an attack on LA, and perhaps the awaking of the Jungle Elder Dragon.
I guess what I am trying to say is, unless the authors had planned for a story to be a detective story right from the start, do not bother hiding anything from the past. About the past, lay absolutely everything out in the open. So there is no guessing needed on the players/readers.
Detective stories are very hard to write well. This is the truth. There are tons more fantasy, sci-fi and other story types out there for good reason.
True enough.
I think there is a point to hiding the past – when the past will reveal something that pertains to the future. For instance, hiding Scarlet until she was finally revealed. However, once the appropriate point in the story is reached, we should be given the information – particularly information that our characters should be able to gather relatively easily.
Lore is the clay in wich stories are molded.
The more developed is the lore, the more stories can have depth, shades, plots and consistency.
The less you’ll find “very bad vilain” and “holy great knight” (unless case of mary sueism like Scarlet).
Celebrations, traditions, habits, common knowledge, morphology, physiology, history, superstition, opinions, leaders, wealth, health, geography, technology.
Lore is very important to me.
It is also the reason why I stopped playing GW 2 after my character reached max lvl.
IMO the other races destroyed the lore. They threw in some random midgets, giants & flower people…
Charr would have been a great addition, if they’d have created a faction system. Why for god’s sake did they think an alliance with our mortal enemies would be a good idea? In GW 1 they give us a tragic storyline where our home gets destroyed by the charr… And in GW 2 I’m being told: “Well actually, you were the bad guys & the charr are the victims so gtfo”.
The personal storyline was a total joke… But I have to congratulate Arenanet for it. They are the first game developer who managed to make me completely hate my own character. I could have slapped my character for all the idiotic stuff she said all the time…
Playing a character you hate, is a complete fun-killer…
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
You’ll also have noticed that Scarlet was extremely elusive in the tower of nightmares. Can you imagine why?
Actually I didn’t. I didn’t get a chance to do much at all in the Tower of Nightmares. I didn’t get to play much at all till toward the end of that run and by then I was blocked by Group Events in my efforts to do things in the tower and no groups to help me. I didn’t even find out about the instances within the tower itself until the last day or two of the event and I couldn’t reach more then one or two; and of those I could get to the entrances of, they weren’t on an active cycle. I tried waiting but real life takes precedence and I had to go before I got a chance to try even one. So nope. I did not get to enjoy the story in the Living Story much at all. I was thoroughly disappointed by those mechanics and very upset with ANET for that.
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
Humans were known to wear the skins of charr as armor…
How would you feel if you saw a charr wearing a human hide armor?
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
Humans were known to wear the skins of charr as armor…
How would you feel if you saw a charr wearing a human hide armor?
Eating someone is a bit more brutal. The native Americans scalped their enemies at times
I would personally say that cutting someone’s skin off and wearing it seems much more brutal to me, but the honest point is that neither side is good. Both sides of done shameful things for their own greater good.
I would personally say that cutting someone’s skin off and wearing it seems much more brutal to me, but the honest point is that neither side is good. Both sides of done shameful things for their own greater good.
Eww, need some salt and pepper for that flank?
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
Humans were known to wear the skins of charr as armor…
How would you feel if you saw a charr wearing a human hide armor?
Eating someone is a bit more brutal. The native Americans scalped their enemies at times
Some Native Americans also ate their enemies. Ed Geins made skin suits of his victims. Both acts are seen as pretty brutal. O.o
I would personally say that cutting someone’s skin off and wearing it seems much more brutal to me, but the honest point is that neither side is good. Both sides of done shameful things for their own greater good.
Cows must hate us.
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
Well this is how I interpreted it while playing. Especially in those quests at Ebonhawke.
Which by the way was one of those places where my character acted completely different then I wanted her to act.
I didn’t feel like an epic hero, I felt like a betrayer to the human race.
I would personally say that cutting someone’s skin off and wearing it seems much more brutal to me, but the honest point is that neither side is good. Both sides of done shameful things for their own greater good.
Cows must hate us.
Possibly, but that’s the reason humans have bred them to be fat and stupid. We can’t have a great cow uprising on our hand now can we? It would just be horrible… the vegans being right. We can’t have that happen!
~turns back to his T-bone steak~
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
Humans were known to wear the skins of charr as armor…
How would you feel if you saw a charr wearing a human hide armor?
Eating someone is a bit more brutal. The native Americans scalped their enemies at times
Some Native Americans also ate their enemies. Ed Geins made skin suits of his victims. Both acts are seen as pretty brutal. O.o
And some Americans wore ears as necklaces…
I’d disagree that the story of GW2 says the humans were the bad guys. It’s merely that, like with every war, either side is considered bad by the opposite side. I mean it would make no sense for the Charr to kill humans because they thought that they were too good. Not to mention, killing the far removed descendants of the people who took your homeland is starting a new crime. They did not directly harm you, but you directly harmed them. No matter what, you won’t come out with a clean slate for either team.
The Charr are known to eat humans. I don’t think all of them care.
Humans were known to wear the skins of charr as armor…
How would you feel if you saw a charr wearing a human hide armor?
Eating someone is a bit more brutal. The native Americans scalped their enemies at times
Some Native Americans also ate their enemies. Ed Geins made skin suits of his victims. Both acts are seen as pretty brutal. O.o
Wow. That’s…….. pretty brutal. But is it metal?
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