How old are the Charr?

How old are the Charr?

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Posted by: Ogwom.7940

Ogwom.7940

Are the charr considered an ancient race?
And,
were they around as a primitive race during the last Elder Dragon Rising?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

They are not considered an ancient race.

The race’s age – like other non-human/sylvari/Forgotten races on Tyria – is unknown.

There is a line that implies that they were a primitive race during the time the Giganticus Lupicus were around, but this is charr mythology speaking so it isn’t factual.

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

The Charr were probably the equivalent of skelk, bears, boars, etc back then. Meaning wild animals. They probably evolved shortly after the dragons went back to sleep.

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Posted by: Icdan Sevaen.4628

Icdan Sevaen.4628

@ Konig, I’m quite curious what that line is.

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Posted by: Donut.6914

Donut.6914

I’m pretty sure they’re not as old as the dragons, giants, mursaat, or seers. They’re somewhere in that next generation with the humans and norn.

I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. I swung a sword again—-hey hey that’s great!

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

@ Konig, I’m quite curious what that line is.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Myths_and_Legends_of_Ancient_Ascalon

This tells ancient charr legends about Ascalon. It was a mythology book compiled by Cita Commandheart. Once, fearsome beasts walked the land. These giants ripped smaller animals apart with their sharp teeth and kicked rocks miles away. The creatures had claws longer than charr arms that they used to spear and cook their prey. These creatures died because they did not work in warbands. When dragons attacked, they fought and died alone. The charr ruled Ascalon differently. We made warbands and legions. We made armies. Then the humans arrived and pushed us from our land. We retaliated and took it back.

Presumably the line refers to Giganticus Lupicus, but the dragons no doubt refers to Elder Dragons.

Whether this is commentary of myths or the myth itself is hard to tell, but it sounds like the charr had ancient stories of the Elder Dragons, like norn did.

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Posted by: Rhaegar.1203

Rhaegar.1203

I’m sorry, but that doesn’t sound like they were around the time the GL existed. It sounds, much as you state in your last line, that they had stories about the GL.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Having ancient stories of the G-Lupe indicates knowledge of them. More importantly: having ancient stories of the Elder Dragons indicates knowledge of them.

The most common way for primitive races to have knowledge of something is to come across it personally – the G-Lupe can be explained by them finding giant kitten bones. So why do the charr have ancient knowledge of the dragons?

Most likely answer would be that they had come across Elder Dragons personally in the ancient past – either just dragon champions or something else.

That’s where I was getting what I said, Rhaegar.

Dear ANet writers,
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(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

The thing is that the Charr aren’t explicitly stated to have originated in the Tyria we know. I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that the Charr actually migrated from the east of the Blazeridge Mountains. still primitive “When the humans first came to Tyria, the charr were already there. All its lands were their hunting grounds, all its creatures their prey.” but what is the behavior of a predator? you enter another predator’s territory, you either fight to the death or leave before they try to kill you. we only really know the Charr after they organize into a military state, before that we dont really have frame of reference other then 1 line in the Ecology of the Charr which states “They fought everything that threatened them – even one another”. and we know that the Blood Leagion controls territory east of Blazeridge, where the Blood Citadel is. so its possible that the Charr as a race could be as older then 500BE. it would also explain why they have no experience with elder dragons since we don’t know if there are these massive magic eating dragons anywhere else on the planet.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Actually, it’s explicitly stated that they originate from east of the Blazeridge Mountains. According to The Ecology of the Charr after being united by the Khan-Ur, they expanded their territory north, then west until hitting the Shiverpeak Mountains, then south (into the now called Ascalon). The quote in question:

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

As for the Elder Dragons being elsewhere on the world, we know that Jormag and the DSD awoke well outside of Central Tyria, and there’s a distinct lack of knowledge on Mordremoth and Zhaitan from the previous dragonrise (only where they fell asleep and the final minions they left behind are known from their activities back then). The jotun mythologies call them world swallowers, so it would make sense for them to have ravaged the whole world at various points in the past, and just ended up in Central Tyria (mostly) at the end of the last waking period.

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Posted by: Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

This only proves that the Charr where spreading from wast of they’re “homeland” into Kryta, was confirmed as they also tried to invade Orr. but east of the Shiverpeaks is Ascalon, with the northern territory called “the blood legion homelands.” but also with the legion’s citadel further east then that. and pointing to what the jotun call the dragons means nothing to a race whom was in its infancy when the jotun where constructing star chambers.

So what i’m getting is that you are confirming my statement, am i missing something?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I… think you’ve got your cordinal directions mixed up.

“down into the lands EAST of the Shiverpeak Mountains” – that is, on the in-game GW2 map, Blood Legion Homelands and Ascalon.

Kryta is WEST of the Shiverpeak Mountains, as are Orr. Furthermore, their assaults on Kryta and Orr came about in 1070/1071 AE, and this passage predates 100 BE (when humans arrived in Ascalon).

The passage does not relate to Kryta or Orr at all. So it does not “only prove” that.

And yes, I was confirming your speculation that they come from east of the Blazeridge Mountains – as I said in my first sentence of the post.

As for them “not knowing of the dragons” – that’s effectively debunked by the line I provided, where their ancient myths explicitly mention dragons. And all our knowledge on the Elder Dragons talk about them being a threat to the whole world and how two of six of the Elder Dragons are not in Central Tyria.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Rhaegar.1203

Rhaegar.1203

This may be nit-picking, but if we come to that, not only Charr knew about dragons, but Humans as well: there was a named area in GW called “Dragon’s Gullet”, and it contains Human ruins.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Humans knew of a dragon in Tyria… Glint. They knew of her for over 200 years by the time of the Searing.

They also knew of the dragons in Cantha, which would have been known about for a far longer time.

There were also the dragon skeletons from Orr they knew about, to some degree (as Khilbron rose them from their graves).

Charr, however, did not know of any of these. Their best knowledge of Glint was “the Forgotten pulled back, called to duty by some other power” – per the Ecology. And they had not been to Orr until 1071 AE – and that was short lived.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Rhaegar.1203

Rhaegar.1203

I just don’t see it. They knew about Elder Dragons, but not “regular” dragons?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I just don’t see it. They knew about Elder Dragons, but not “regular” dragons?

I think he’s saying the opposite- Dragon’s Gullet is more likely proof that humans knew about regular dragons, not Elder Dragons.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

The statement that he is making is simply that the humans themselves know about the regular average creature that is termed a Dragon by running into them in multiple locations. Sadly, while the Charr have myths about the Elder Dragons, there is no evidence that the Charr have had any contact with the dragons that humanity knew about, because they are so far separated.

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Posted by: Rhaegar.1203

Rhaegar.1203

The statement that he is making is simply that the humans themselves know about the regular average creature that is termed a Dragon by running into them in multiple locations. Sadly, while the Charr have myths about the Elder Dragons, there is no evidence that the Charr have had any contact with the dragons that humanity knew about, because they are so far separated.

This. What my line meant, Aaron, was from the Charr perspective.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Given that Elder Dragons and dragons are vastly dissimilar, yes. Charr knew of the Elder Dragons but not regular dragons. Meanwhile, humans knew of regular dragons but not Elder Dragons (though the Six knew of both).

The only non-Elder Dragon dragon that the charr may have known about for some time was Glint, but instead of naming her the Ecology merely mentions “some other power”.

Furthermore, we know the line in charr myths refer to the Elder Dragons and not regular dragons because it’s a line about races being wiped out – something attributed only to the Elder Dragon, not regular dragons.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

I don’t think we have any actual evidence that the charr didn’t know of other types of dragons. Only that they didn’t know of the very specific non elder dragons that the humans had contact with. But nothing mentioned precludes other non-ED dragons from having existed in charr lands.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

While true, nothing supports such either. So it’d be an argument of full hypotheses on both sides.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

True.

On hypothesis, I’d speculate on the charr having purged them early from charr lands. The GW manuscript said dragons of all shapes sizes and origin had called cantha home.

We don’t really know of any special dragon creating item in cantha (that I can recall) or of any dragon repelling item throughout the rest of the world.

Oo, while researching, the GW1 wiki says drakes are a kind of dragon. So, in that sense, I am wrong. The charr have not purged them from their lands and they are familiar with them.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Drakes being “a kind of dragon” is a purely mechanical thing – like how Kudu’s Power Suit in CoE story counts as a bandit, or ettin and jotuns being ogres in GW1.

In GW2, the closest relation to dragons that drakes show is being cousins to wyverns.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

That’s definitely a possibility.