Guild Wars 2

Ever since the battle against Abbadon in the Nightfall campaign when Kormir stole godhood from us, the hero, I have always been more into the tyrian “gods”. So I looked into the lore and noticed that there was also a god before Abbadon’s place, Arachnia. After a little more research I found out that Grenth took godhood from Dhumm who was not defeated, but imprisoned.

After finding alot of interesting lore about the gods I started to see a trend of humanistic gods taking “power” from godlike creatures and became “gods” to their own people. Now after meeting the Jotun in the screenshots of this post I thought of a couple things.

My theory is that the Humans on their rise to power and great civilization found powerful creatures as they grew over the years and headed north of the southern islands of Cantha, and defeated these creatures on the way. Those humans that defeated those creatures took it’s power becoming extremely powerful, thus becoming a god (redundant I know). I think this is were the humans come from another world part comes in, they came from the south of Cantha (no one knows anything about south of cantha), with their gods…none of the other races have been south where maybe the humans originated. As the Jotun says, humans sprouted up into great power and were noticed by all the races. Also all of the current “gods” Balthazar, Dwayna, Lyssa, Melandru, Grenth… all have stories, families, feelings and traits so similar to humans and the people that worship them I only makes since that they were mortal at one point.

Maybe they killed the deities that the other races believed in such as Jotun?

Who knows, (remember these are ideas, don’t go crazy) I would really like to see what everyone else thinks, I have only discussed this with a few friends on Teamspeak 3.

But you do know that the human Gods where called travellers from the mist right. the first traveller to arrival at tyria is Dwayna then fellow by Balthazar and Melandru. when it come to Grenth well he is half human that i know because his Dawayna son and his father is a mortal. what you say about Grenth removing Dhumm from his power is because he was a half God himself and didn’t like what Dhumm was doing to the poor souls. i still believe that the Gods brought human to tyria and about the magic that was taking away from jotun, you have to remember its was Abbadon who started to give too much magic to humans.

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

But you do know that the human Gods where called travellers from the mist right. the first traveller to arrival at tyria is Dwayna then fellow by Balthazar and Melandru. when it come to Grenth well he is half human that i know because his Dawayna son and his father is a mortal. what you say about Grenth removing Dhumm from his power is because he was a half God himself and didn’t like what Dhumm was doing to the poor souls. i still believe that the Gods brought human to tyria and about the magic that was taking away from jotun, you have to remember its was Abbadon who started to give too much magic to humans.

And the father is….. Malchor (makes sense now)

And you do realize the races from the planet tyria call the continent tyria….. just….sayian

We know that the gods are killable and that others can take their place. Only their power seems to be immortal. However I see the Gods kind of like Greek Gods. They are increadibly powerful but still failable. We know that among the current 6, at least 2 are children of other Gods. Balthazar took his godhood from his father by the sound of it, and Grenth took Dhumm’s power. Currently Kormir is the only one of the 6 we know was truely mortal and she was blessed by the other 5 to allow her to ascend.

What Ive read of the Human Gods it sounds like they came to Tyria and brought the Humans here, possibly fleeing their orginal world.

If humanity was brought over by the six gods from another world via the Mists, then the hints we were given in GW1 were false – that humanity originated in the lands beyond the continent of Cantha (which at that time, is a continent divided into three – the Dragon Empire, the Kurzicks, and the Luxons).

That there were lands east of the Luxons; south of the Kurzicks; and south-east of the continent. With the overlay maps based on the data file that was found and posted, it shows us that what we know as the continent of Cantha is but a part of a bigger island. Which perfectly fits what was given to us in-game back in GW1.

Hunter.6950:

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

But you do know that the human Gods where called travellers from the mist right. the first traveller to arrival at tyria is Dwayna then fellow by Balthazar and Melandru. when it come to Grenth well he is half human that i know because his Dawayna son and his father is a mortal. what you say about Grenth removing Dhumm from his power is because he was a half God himself and didn’t like what Dhumm was doing to the poor souls. i still believe that the Gods brought human to tyria and about the magic that was taking away from jotun, you have to remember its was Abbadon who started to give too much magic to humans.

And the father is….. Malchor (makes sense now)

And you do realize the races from the planet tyria call the continent tyria….. just….sayian

Malchor is not the father pf Grenth. When the gods first looked for a Sculpture, and when Malchor first met Dwayna, it was the first time he met Grenth as well, to carve his statue.

Shael.4703:

If humanity was brought over by the six gods from another world via the Mists, then the hints we were given in GW1 were false – that humanity originated in the lands beyond the continent of Cantha (which at that time, is a continent divided into three – the Dragon Empire, the Kurzicks, and the Luxons).

That there were lands east of the Luxons; south of the Kurzicks; and south-east of the continent. With the overlay maps based on the data file that was found and posted, it shows us that what we know as the continent of Cantha is but a part of a bigger island. Which perfectly fits what was given to us in-game back in GW1.

Not neccesarily. It just means that the place that humans first entered Tyria was south of Cantha. Do remember we have quite a few quite varied cultures appear from the same location only a thousand or so years apart.

Now, I may be wrong, but I don’t remember reading anywhere that the gods brought humanity to Tyria. In fact, I remember reading that the first humans (who were the canthans, kurzicks, and luxons) lived for quite some time and became very advanced without any knowledge of the gods up in Tyria. You wanna know something though, in Guild Wars 1 it was stated that the gods created Tyria and that they brought the forgotten out from the Mists to protect the world they were creating. This was obviously major human error in this story because tyria has been around much longer than the gods, and forgotten were here when the dragons first awoke. So when it comes to lore, everything must be taken with a tiny grain of salt. Things aren’t as straight forward as they were in the first game.

There are several places in lore where they say the humans were brought to Tyria by the Gods but the most compelling evidance is from dev interveiws where devs have said ‘when the gods brought the humans to tyria’.

There is clearly something we dont know about the whole thing yet. The timeline is pretty out of wack and Im pretty sure its not a mistake on Arenanet’s part. Its clear that humans didnt arrive at Orr before Cantha even though GW2 suggests that Orr is where the gods entered the world from the mists.

Shael.4703:

If humanity was brought over by the six gods from another world via the Mists, then the hints we were given in GW1 were false – that humanity originated in the lands beyond the continent of Cantha (which at that time, is a continent divided into three – the Dragon Empire, the Kurzicks, and the Luxons).

That there were lands east of the Luxons; south of the Kurzicks; and south-east of the continent. With the overlay maps based on the data file that was found and posted, it shows us that what we know as the continent of Cantha is but a part of a bigger island. Which perfectly fits what was given to us in-game back in GW1.

http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

Kill Ten Rats – Humans are an interesting wild card in the Guild Wars world. What we know is they first appeared in Cantha, the Empire of the Dragon, and the now-called human gods were very relevant to all the lore built up in Guild Wars 1. Now, with the awakening of the elder dragons and waning of the human race, the human gods are less involved in the world of Tyria. Who or what created the human race and what is their point of origin? Why do the other races seem to hold so little value in the human gods, who allegedly “created” Tyria as we know it?

Jeff Grubb – The full story of the origin of the humans has yet to be revealed. They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world). It seems, from their previous appearances, that they have come up from the south, so the “human homeland” may be further south than Elona and Cantha.

Humans were brought to the world of Tyira by the gods sometime in the past, their original point of arrival was somewhere south of Cantha.

Neither story is wrong, each is just a smaller part of a larger story.

Lutinz.6915:

We know that the gods are killable and that others can take their place. Only their power seems to be immortal.

i came to same conclusion as Lutinz, and it brought funny image to my mind of theoretically, if strong enough Charr would have won Balthazars powers, humankind in tyria would have ended up worshipping Charr god, wouldn’t they?

That is possibly true, but way back in those days no individual mortal stood a chance against a full fledged god. Even our heroes in GW1 only killed the tormented, bodiless husk of Abaddon directly after he broke his shackles, and when it comes to Dhuum it seems that it is impossible to kill him.

@the OP: Arachnia’s not confirmed to be canon lore – the name was taken out of the gw.dat and was never said in the actual game.

Thruln the Lost is wrong on many accounts. For instance, as said in this thread the Six Gods brought humanity to the world, and they lived in the first continental Tyrian kingdom (Orr) alongside the humans – so it is therefore impossible for the humans, who managed to create a kingdom within five years of living on Elona (and they arrived to continental Tyria at the same time), to have been primitive and beneath the eyes of the Six Gods. Furthermore, we know of three gods – Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru – who came from the Mists as gods.

Narcemus.1348:

In fact, I remember reading that the first humans […] lived for quite some time and became very advanced without any knowledge of the gods up in Tyria.

This was never stated in lore as far as I know – unless it comes from GW2. Even in An Empire Divided, historical records from the time claim that Kaineng Tah was given a divine command by the gods to unite Cantha under one banner – this was a mere 200 or so years after they appeared in Cantha.

Sajuuk Khar.1509:

[…]
Jeff Grubb – The full story of the origin of the humans has yet to be revealed. They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world). It seems, from their previous appearances, that they have come up from the south, so the “human homeland” may be further south than Elona and Cantha.

Humans were brought to the world of Tyira by the gods sometime in the past, their original point of arrival was somewhere south of Cantha.

Neither story is wrong, each is just a smaller part of a larger story.

Not entirely true. Take note of Jeff’s phrasing of the response:

“[…] the ‘human homeland’ may be further south than Elona and Cantha.”

May be further south – as in, that might not be the case. Of course, I expect that the situation is that the Six Gods arrived in Orr, then went south and brought humanity to the world in a land where they didn’t see so many other races (only Balthazar was intent on having humanity control the world, after all, and Tyria has quite a lot of races) – perhaps guided by the forgotten. But that’s only conjecture.

What we do know is that Jeff wasn’t speaking in absolutes, and the most recent case of where humans arrived on Tyria in lore is said – by modern scholars – to be Orr. Though I’d trust the Seventh Reaper who never mentions when or where humans came to Tyria more than the Durmand Priory (that is, that we still don’t truly know).

Narcemus.1348:

and when it comes to Dhuum it seems that it is impossible to kill him.

Well, thing is in GW1 we’re not trying to kill him – our goal is imprisoning him. With Grenth, he was already a half-god so maybe there’s a “limit” to how much power an individual god can hold.

See personally I had attributed this to the fact that on Tyria Dhuum represented death, and you cannot kill death, thus all you can do is weaken and imprison him. I highly doubt that Grenth would have been displeased if we accidentally happened to kill Dhuum and gave the whole of the powers to Grenth. That being said though this was entirely my reading into the situation, and not lore based.

As for my claim on humanity becoming very advanced without knowledge of the gods, perhaps I was mistaken. I do specifically remember, though, that the Tyrian humans knew nothing of the Canthan humans until they randomly traveled to the continent, and that the biggest reason that there was no war between these factions of humanity was because of the much more advanced state of the humans of Cantha. I read this on the original GW wiki, sadly it’s been years and I have no clue what article it was.

I read through most of these posts…I never played GW1 but I found someone’s youtube videos that talks about the lore. Is this incorrect information? http://youtu.be/ARZWX51hYYk

Personally I find Wooden Potatoes to have incorrect information in his videos quite often. He does offer some good insight from time to time but overall I wouldn’t give him much credibility.

@Narcemus: You’re assuming that killing Dhuum would give Grenth the rest of his powers.

Firstly, one has to be physically present to absorb a gods’ power it would seem (based on the fact Kormir literally jumped into Abaddon’s power). So that means that means Grenth wouldn’t get the power.

Secondly, there would have to be a new god (or a god present) to keep the Underworld from being destroyed by Dhuum’s power. Given the fact that Grenth didn’t absorb all of Dhuum’s power previously, there’s bound to be a reason for such. Maybe it’s that Dhuum found a way to prevent his power from being stolen, or that having been a half-god, Grenth could only absorb so much of the power (and it had to be returned to Dhuum as a container of it – though that wouldn’t explain why the Reapers didn’t take some of the power – or maybe they did and that’s why they’re the Reapers).

As I said, that was merely my artistic viewpoint as to what the situation might represent, nothing more.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Narcemus: You’re assuming that killing Dhuum would give Grenth the rest of his powers.

Firstly, one has to be physically present to absorb a gods’ power it would seem (based on the fact Kormir literally jumped into Abaddon’s power). So that means that means Grenth wouldn’t get the power.

Secondly, there would have to be a new god (or a god present) to keep the Underworld from being destroyed by Dhuum’s power. Given the fact that Grenth didn’t absorb all of Dhuum’s power previously, there’s bound to be a reason for such. Maybe it’s that Dhuum found a way to prevent his power from being stolen, or that having been a half-god, Grenth could only absorb so much of the power (and it had to be returned to Dhuum as a container of it – though that wouldn’t explain why the Reapers didn’t take some of the power – or maybe they did and that’s why they’re the Reapers).

The half god thing can’t have anything to do with it, as Kormir (a simply ascended human) was capable of absorbing the entirety of Abadon’s power. I think it would be more likely that, since Dhuum has control of absolute death, he makes himself immune to it’s effects.

It’s also possible it’s Grenth who let’s dhuum live. Would it not be hypocritical of Grenth to kill Dhuum permanently if he allows others to resurrect? Grenth may be the god of death and revenge, but he isn’t unjust. He may even have allowed Dhuum to live simply to give Dhuum the chance to get his own revenge.

Back to the main topic, I think it’s far more likely for Humans to have come from south of Cantha. We know the dragons are essentially living natural disasters and have the power equivalent of a god, it’s possible the human gods actually killed dragons that have risen in the past. We don’t know how old Tyria itself is, so the dragons could have risen numerous times in other areas of the world. (the world of tyria we have explored is so incredibly small compared to the total land).

We also have the great dwarf to look at. It’s possible the great dwarf came about in this same fashion. He simply defeated a dragon, came down, and created the dwarfs because he knew the dragons would rise again. This is bolstered by the fact he literally left them a book saying “destroyers be coming yo get ready”.

Even if the human gods came from the mists, we know that the mists simply link alternate existences of the same world as told by the wizard who discovered how to get to the mists, not to mention World v World v World is simply a giant gladium arena created by the dead for their amusement as we fight, and we simply fight alternate tyrias. However it’s all still the same tyria, so the point is moot.

Another thing we need to take into account is that the races aren’t [that] smart. The world to them might simply be the continent. (think about how the world was considered flat until Christopher Columbus sailed around the world).

Overall we need to take some points into account the most when judging sources:
1. Each race will have a story that shows themselves in a better light, the only truths we can gather are things universally shown across all races.
2. The powers of a god can either be achieved through extremely great works (Ancient powerful monsters gradual growth over thousands of years) or defeating something of great power.
3. The older the character, the more likely they’re recounts are accurate. (I’d trust the wise lost jotun over rytlock).
4. Context is very important as the world and the continent are both tyria.

You misunderstood what I meant about the half-god thing. What I meant was that being half-god prevented Grenth from absorbing Dhuum’s full power – not that it allowed it. That is to say, Grenth began absorbing Dhuum’s power as a god, but because he was already a half-god, he couldn’t handle all the power (think of a container being filled with water – keep filling it up, it’ll overflow and can even burst if the pressure is strong enough).

I would argue that killing Dhuum isn’t unjust. Dhuum was cruel, unjust, and probably the closest thing to a literal evil being that GW has. Grenth is a representation of judgment, not necessarily revenge (revenge is merely a portion of his justice system), so death to one who would kill perhaps thousands, even to the point of hunting down those who managed to escape death (be it via resurrection or, by the sound of it, merely surviving a should-have-been fatal experience), sounds rather just to me.

As to the concept of gods killing dragons – I disagree for three reasons:

• Zhaitan did not exude indestructable energy when he died. Ergo, unlike the gods, the Elder Dragons do not have this.
• The Six Gods arrived after the Elder Dragons’ last awakening. That is, the last “cycle” was long over by the time the gods arrived. Or so all current indications say.
• Most importantly, as said in this thread prior, Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru are said to have come from the Mists as gods. Therefore, if they killed and took an Elder Dragon’s power to ascend into godhood, they did so on another world.

Regarding the Great Dwarf – it has been revealed that the Great Dwarf wasn’t, to all knowledge, a single being but rather the shared consciousness of the dwarven race – hence the Rite of the Great Dwarf being the dwarves “becoming the Great Dwarf.”

About what you said on WvWvW: False. That’s the lore behind the Hall of Heroes (except that the ghosts didn’t make that – its origins are unknown). The story behind WvWvW seems, by our current knowledge, to be a literal battlefield between multiple worlds and/or realities. It is no arena and the dead have no say in it.

As to the view of the world: comparing to Christopher Columbus’ time is fairly inaccurate since it’s never been claimed the world Tyria was flat – considering we now have a full detailed globe, I think it’s likely that it is known by the races (at least the Order of Whispers) what the world looks like.

So here is a thought that I was having while playing through Nightfall that I wanted to put out there. When it comes to Abaddon and him having strength greater than any individual other god, what if he was a god when he came to Tyria. Now I know the Apostate talks many times about Abaddon having a predecessor, but what about this. We get the impression that there are other godlike beings within the mists, such as the assumed spider god Arachnia. What if Abaddon was a huntsman, a slayer of beings and a stealer of powers. This would explain his ability, said in the wiki, to take any two of the 5 gods on, but his inability to stand against the might of the combined 5.

Honestly right now I’m just prompting Konig to tell me something about Abaddon that was revealed in Orr that I have been unable to find cause I’ve really just started exploring it.

The only thing found on Abaddon in lore is in relation to the personal story step everyone goes through at his sunken temple – that his temple’s trials deal with mesmerism and has the names “Lies” “Illusions” “the Deep” and so forth – seems there’s a heavy tie between him and Lyssa, imo.

But nothing else has been said, that I’ve found, on Abaddon. Sadly.

Hmm, so it seems that Lyssa may have made some gains from the fall of Abaddon (complete speculation).

Except that she’s been attributed with these very things prior to the fall of Abaddon.

Seems more likely that there was a rather large overlap in Lyssa’s and Abaddon’s domains (perhaps intentionally?). I’ve seen wild speculation and fan-fiction saying that Lyssa and Abaddon may have been lovers – perhaps that’s more true than not (or, alternatively, they were siblings).

The seals in Lyssa’s temple also follow the same deign as how Abaddon’s depicted in the guild emblem options, though rather than six eyes and tentacle hair, it’s split faced.

Well then, Lyssa may have had a large family, either that or kudos to Abaddon for landing a set of twins :P

This makes me wonder though, why the avatar of Lyssa has no problem assisting us in killing Abaddon in Nightfall. My best guess there is that they were in fact lovers and the war forced him to abandon her. This would cause the recognizable quote, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” I can see very little instances where someone would actually help in the murder of their sibling, though gods are very different from people, and they have their own reasons for doing things.

Note – Entire post is speculation.

Lyssa’s avatar being the one talking during Nightfall is weird just for the fact that Dwayna’s avatar was present and Dwayna’s the leader of the gods (and similarly, Melandru’s the oldest). The only uniqueness unto Lyssa herself is twofold: She represents inspiration, so she’d be a good motivational speaker I guess, and before being called to join the other gods (while still a god), she lived among humans to help them “forget the past” (whatever this means), meaning that she’d be the one in charge of dealing with old issues and overcoming them.

Alternatively, if there is a connection between Lyssa and Abaddon, then it could be that she took up responsibility because there was a connection – either she had to show her resolve, wanted revenge, or even felt guilt over it so she wanted to be the one to bring his end (a common theme in stories, someone feels guilty over the actions of a loved one and believe that it is their duty and punishment to fix said love one’s wrongs – in this case, sentence Abaddon to death and Kormir to replace him).

Yeah, almost right after I posted what I did the idea came to my mind that perhaps it is the same sort of situation as Jora and Svanir.

Regarding the Lyssa- Abaddon connection, it’s also worth mentioning that one of the bloodiest rituals that brought Nightfall ever closer was conducted in a Basilica devoted to Lyssa. Abaddon could’ve targeted any other god shrines – there was a giant, golden statue of Dwayna at Wehhan Terraces, MUCH closer to Kourna and probably less defended compared to a grand temple in central Vabbi -, yet for some reason Varesh went straight for Sebelkeh.

You know I completely forgot about that, perhaps he wasn’t the one that left Lyssa, but perhaps Lyssa left him to side with the other gods.

If I recall correctly, wasn’t the Mirror of Lyss (particularly where the Sebelkeh is) magical and that’s why the ritual was needed to be there? I kind of figured that the rituals placements were rather special intentionally so – though I’m unsure of what significance to the ritual Gandara may have (other than having a plaza of the five gods) – maybe the shape, being a triangle.

But I figured that it was more of Varesh’s judgment to kill off the priests and priestesses and blaspheme the temple.

I’d say that it had more to do with the relevance than the placement. Well, 2 out of the known 4 (Fahranur, Gandara, Sebelkeh and the Mouth of Torment) ritual locations are known to have contained something that was “important” to Abaddon (Fahranur – Apocrypha and Mouth – the place of his fall, where pieces of his armor and his shattered sword could be found), with a third possibly also holding something “dear” to him: his mural was (reconstructed?) at Gandara, and it might have contained some form of magic as well. If three fourth of Nightfall-bringing rites were so centered around Abaddon and/or one of his relics, than I’d say the fourth had to be of some significance to him as well.

Fahranur: Awakening of the Apocrypha, learning of the next steps of the Nightfall rituals and beginning of the weakening of Abaddon’s prison → torment and nightmare can seep into Tyria more freely.
Gandara: Abaddon sends a clear threat to the other five as his mural “faces” those of the Five and stands victorious over their shattered pieces.
Sebelkeh Basilica: Revenge by desecrating Lyssa’s temple. (?)
Mouth of Torment: Freedom and rise at the place where he fell.

Did Fahranur really have a ritual though? I only recall that being where the ritual scrolls were found. Everything else was caused by the Apocrypha’s awakening and wrecking havoc – but not being a ritual in of itself to weaken the barriers between Tyria and the Realm of Torment.

If I remember right the problems in Fahranur happened because of Kormir, not Varesh. The only ritual stuff we know about to deal with Kournans was when Varesh’s general was stopped in Bogroot Growths.

Serpent Eyed.8365:

Lutinz.6915:

We know that the gods are killable and that others can take their place. Only their power seems to be immortal.

i came to same conclusion as Lutinz, and it brought funny image to my mind of theoretically, if strong enough Charr would have won Balthazars powers, humankind in tyria would have ended up worshipping Charr god, wouldn’t they?

hahahahah hahahahahahaha oh the irony if that happened