Guild Wars 2

To elaborate on the title of this topic, I’am wondering how Mesmers are, in Human society. It seems most Mesmers are of a Noble background, and are Female. Its more common to see a noble Mesmer, versus a commoner Mesmer, or even rarer… a Poor Mesmer.

Now I know Magic can be taught but its more of something one is born with so anyone can be a Mesmer. However from a lore perspective and from what we have been shown through-out Guild Wars 2, we see a lot of noble human females as Mesmers, versus male Mesmers. I can only think of one male Mesmer from the human story line and that was the Ringmaster.

From a personality point of view, we know Mesmers are cunning with their minds. Also ( In human society ) Mesmers are highly into fashion, and have expensive taste when it comes to what they are wearing. So maybe that idea alone can also add fuel to the thought that most Human Mesmers are wealthy and Noble?

Iam just wondering why we mostly see Noble, Fashionable, and Female, Mesmers, VS Male, less than Noble, and ( If it counts ) Less fashionable Mesmers, ?

I haven’t played those storylines myself, but isn’t Faren a mesmer too?

As for the upper-class twist, that’s something that’s always hung around the mesmer. It makes sense- mesmerism is about seeming and appearances, which could easily be carried over into a taste for fine (or made to appear fine?) clothes, and it is, compared to most of the other magical professions, a relatively refined and complex field, which would have made it more easily available to the historically better educated nobility. It’s also particularly useful for the nobility as we see in GW2, with their political games of plots and lies and bluffs and deceptions- all of which a mesmer is better suited to handling than the more brute professions.

To go back to the initial question, I don’t believe mesmers hold any particular social class or prestige, but that the profession is inherently more useful, and perhaps even a tradition to, the nobility.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I haven’t played those storylines myself, but isn’t Faren a mesmer too?

As for the upper-class twist, that’s something that’s always hung around the mesmer. It makes sense- mesmerism is about seeming and appearances, which could easily be carried over into a taste for fine (or made to appear fine?) clothes, and it is, compared to most of the other magical professions, a relatively refined and complex field, which would have made it more easily available to the historically better educated nobility. It’s also particularly useful for the nobility as we see in GW2, with their political games of plots and lies and bluffs and deceptions- all of which a mesmer is better suited to handling than the more brute professions.

To go back to the initial question, I don’t believe mesmers hold any particular social class or prestige, but that the profession is inherently more useful, and perhaps even a tradition to, the nobility.

That makes a lot of sense. I guess one would rather a mesmer in a governmental debate than a Warrior.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I haven’t played those storylines myself, but isn’t Faren a mesmer too?

As for the upper-class twist, that’s something that’s always hung around the mesmer. It makes sense- mesmerism is about seeming and appearances, which could easily be carried over into a taste for fine (or made to appear fine?) clothes, and it is, compared to most of the other magical professions, a relatively refined and complex field, which would have made it more easily available to the historically better educated nobility. It’s also particularly useful for the nobility as we see in GW2, with their political games of plots and lies and bluffs and deceptions- all of which a mesmer is better suited to handling than the more brute professions.

To go back to the initial question, I don’t believe mesmers hold any particular social class or prestige, but that the profession is inherently more useful, and perhaps even a tradition to, the nobility.

Faren is Thief/mesmer (dual swords, but thief animatons)

I think there is a tendency for human mesmers to be more likely to be upper-class women, or perhaps it might be more accurate to say that upper-class women are more likely to become mesmers.

One of the clearer examples going back to Factions is the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah. While the distinctions are not absolute, the Jade Brotherhood are typically characterised as being a gang of spoiled rich kids basically, while the Am Fah recruit more from the dregs of society. Up until Beyond gave all professions to both, it was the Jade Brotherhood that had warriors, elementalists, mesmers, and ritualists, while the Am Fah had necromancers, monks, rangers and assassins. More tellingly, the Jade Brotherhood Mesmers are the only ones of the group that have female models by default.

Generally speaking, the impression I’ve had is that is that among humans, elementalists and monks tend(ed) to come from all rungs of society, necromancers tend to be more likely to come from lower classes, and mesmers from upper classes. There are exceptions, of course, but that’s the general rule.

Part of this is probably availability of education. Apart from Kasmeer’s occasional reminiscence, we really don’t know the overall state of Kryta’s education system these days – but it’s probably reasonable to presume that nobles get better opportunities than commoners, while the lowest ranks might fall through the cracks entirely. Beyond that, reputation may play a part – mesmers seem to be highly respected among humans (more so than necromancers, anyway), so a noble might prefer to pursue mesmerism because it’s better for their image. (Whether this is getting cause and effect mixed up – because nobles in the past tended to become mesmers because it was more useful for intrigue, and thus mesmers came to become more respected because they were associated with nobility, is open to interpretation… and possibly not really relevant to current circumstances). By contrast, a lower-class human with the opportunity to learn necromancy isn’t getting much respect to begin with, and for them they have less to lose and potentially much to gain from studying necromancy.

In terms of gender ratios: I think this is reflective of Tyrian society having similar gender attitudes to modern Western societies: There are few or no formal barriers to someone of either gender taking whatever profession they please, but nonetheless there are certain roles that society expects men to take, and certain roles that society expects women to take… and such segregation is more pronounced in the upper classes, as lower classes are more likely to take a more practical attitude of just doing what can get them the best income without worrying about gender. It’s likely, then, that noblemen are encouraged to go into more ‘masculine’ professions such as warriors and guardians, while it’s seen as more fitting for noblewomen to adopt scholar professions such as elementalist and mesmer. And if Tyrian humans put as much stock in a woman’s physical appearance as modern Western society, then the ability to use illusions to tweak their appearance must be an attractive option.

Certainly, Kasmeer’s line about missing the day they covered siege warfare between dance and etiquette classes suggests that human noblewomen might get a different education to human noblemen, one that pushes them more towards becoming mesmers than other professions.

@Big Tower: That probably makes Faren a thief profession-wise: NPCs can often use weapons not available to PCs. ’Course, Faren would probably think of himself as a daring swashbuckler rather than a thief… publicly, anyway. He does give me a bit of a Sir Percy Blakeney vibe.

I think one reason mesmers are generally tied to upper class humans comes from how intertwined mesmers are with theater/dramatic productions. The drama/masquerade mask is iconic to the mesmer for a reason. In GW1 mesmers are synonymous with theater/performers, such entertainment is largely intended for upper classes especially in the roughly medieval societies of GW1 human nations. From these traditions I think it’s natural for mesmer to become a profession that is more common in upper classes in modern Kryta.

As for female preference for mesmer, that I can’t really explain. It certainly wasn’t so one sided in GW1 for every female mesmer there was usually a male somewhere as well. Maybe it’s a new Krytan thing or maybe it’s just a case of chance where the most notable mesmers are all female.

First of all, to quote Jurassic Park: “They should all be destroyed.”

But second, I think it just seems like most mesmers are nobility, due to the limited mesmer npc’s we’ve met. Bare in mind that in GW1 we had plenty of commoners that were also mesmers. Or Norgu who was a poet and play-writer. We had Charr Chaots, so even among charr is was but another profession.

We don’t really know who teaches the ‘gorgeous mesmer collective’. It will not be open schooling like the asura. It will not be military training like the charr. Kasmeer actually fits the profile of someone who could be a teacher in later life. Noble born and able to mix with noble families, without a title and its associated duties, skilled enough to give very private tuition to families of friends.

It’s worth noting that if the PC is a Mesmer, he or she actually knows about the existence of the Collective (irrelevant of race) if you talk about it to Braham. So while knowledge of the Mesmer Collective may not be common knowledge, it seems that all Mesmers have at least heard of it.

Or all sufficiently talented mesmers have, at any rate- I suspect our player characters, particularly seeing as they’re currently set post PS and S1, are quite a bit more advanced than your normal member of their profession.

Also, you can pretty much "see" which among the professions are poor, common and noble.

Mesmer - Noble ( thats obvi )
Warrior - Common
Thief - Poor
Ranger - Common
Guardian - Noble
Engineer - Poor
Elementalist - Common I guess.
Necromancer - Common or poor.

Alga.6498:

Necromancer – Common or poor.

As a noble necromancer, I feel quite insulted. Expect an unlabeled package from my minions soon. :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Alga.6498:

Necromancer – Common or poor.

As a noble necromancer, I feel quite insulted. Expect an unlabeled package from my minions soon. :P

LMFAO!!!

draxynnic.3719:

I think there is a tendency for human mesmers to be more likely to be upper-class women, or perhaps it might be more accurate to say that upper-class women are more likely to become mesmers.

One of the clearer examples going back to Factions is the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah. While the distinctions are not absolute, the Jade Brotherhood are typically characterised as being a gang of spoiled rich kids basically, while the Am Fah recruit more from the dregs of society. Up until Beyond gave all professions to both, it was the Jade Brotherhood that had warriors, elementalists, mesmers, and ritualists, while the Am Fah had necromancers, monks, rangers and assassins. More tellingly, the Jade Brotherhood Mesmers are the only ones of the group that have female models by default.

Generally speaking, the impression I’ve had is that is that among humans, elementalists and monks tend(ed) to come from all rungs of society, necromancers tend to be more likely to come from lower classes, and mesmers from upper classes. There are exceptions, of course, but that’s the general rule.

Part of this is probably availability of education. Apart from Kasmeer’s occasional reminiscence, we really don’t know the overall state of Kryta’s education system these days – but it’s probably reasonable to presume that nobles get better opportunities than commoners, while the lowest ranks might fall through the cracks entirely. Beyond that, reputation may play a part – mesmers seem to be highly respected among humans (more so than necromancers, anyway), so a noble might prefer to pursue mesmerism because it’s better for their image. (Whether this is getting cause and effect mixed up – because nobles in the past tended to become mesmers because it was more useful for intrigue, and thus mesmers came to become more respected because they were associated with nobility, is open to interpretation… and possibly not really relevant to current circumstances). By contrast, a lower-class human with the opportunity to learn necromancy isn’t getting much respect to begin with, and for them they have less to lose and potentially much to gain from studying necromancy.

In terms of gender ratios: I think this is reflective of Tyrian society having similar gender attitudes to modern Western societies: There are few or no formal barriers to someone of either gender taking whatever profession they please, but nonetheless there are certain roles that society expects men to take, and certain roles that society expects women to take… and such segregation is more pronounced in the upper classes, as lower classes are more likely to take a more practical attitude of just doing what can get them the best income without worrying about gender. It’s likely, then, that noblemen are encouraged to go into more ‘masculine’ professions such as warriors and guardians, while it’s seen as more fitting for noblewomen to adopt scholar professions such as elementalist and mesmer. And if Tyrian humans put as much stock in a woman’s physical appearance as modern Western society, then the ability to use illusions to tweak their appearance must be an attractive option.

Certainly, Kasmeer’s line about missing the day they covered siege warfare between dance and etiquette classes suggests that human noblewomen might get a different education to human noblemen, one that pushes them more towards becoming mesmers than other professions.

@Big Tower: That probably makes Faren a thief profession-wise: NPCs can often use weapons not available to PCs. ’Course, Faren would probably think of himself as a daring swashbuckler rather than a thief… publicly, anyway. He does give me a bit of a Sir Percy Blakeney vibe.

Interesting read… I will say if this is fact, then it makes me a bit sad to see that women are more geared to become Mesmers than men in human society. ( My main is a Mesmer, and hes very Flamboyant).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Alga.6498:

Necromancer - Common or poor.

As a noble necromancer, I feel quite insulted. Expect an unlabeled package from my minions soon. :P

Nonsense! As a noble mesmer, high ranked and the most blonde than any nobles has lived. Feel the power of my wrath of my beautiful illusions and will dearly shatter your tiny little body apart! Behold Necromancer OR GIVE UP!!

Necromancers cannot be trusted! They all will buuuurrn, BUUUURRN I say!! Muwhhah-aha... hah- HAAH!!! *cough* ughh.. I really need to practice on my noblish evil laugh.. :/

@Mad Queen Malefide: While I’m not sure I agree entirely with Alga’s assignations (particularly with how specific they are), you’re the exception that proves the rule. For most nobles, the dark and unsettling reputation of necromancers to most humans is a problem. For you, going against the norms is part of your nature.

@Purecura: I’m inclined to think that there’s nothing stopping men from becoming mesmers, just that women are more likely to. At the risk of being stereotypical, think of how much of a priority most women put on their appearance compared to most men, and thus how relatively attractive each would find a form of magic that can be used to completely bypass all those messy cosmetics. Mesmerism certainly would be attractive to the flamboyant of both genders, though.

draxynnic.3719:

@Mad Queen Malafide: While I’m not sure I agree entirely with Alga’s assignations (particularly with how specific they are), you’re the exception that proves the rule. For most nobles, the dark and unsettling reputation of necromancers to most humans is a problem. For you, going against the norms is part of your nature.

Why thank you darling!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

draxynnic.3719:

@Mad Queen Malafide: While I’m not sure I agree entirely with Alga’s assignations (particularly with how specific they are), you’re the exception that proves the rule. For most nobles, the dark and unsettling reputation of necromancers to most humans is a problem. For you, going against the norms is part of your nature.

Why thank you darling!

ppfff! This is unacceptable! I will call on my personal Sereph Ministry bodyguard and arrest both of you scums!!
Guard?? Where are you?!

…your guard are Seraph rather than Ministry Guard? Well, that’d explain it. The Seraph aren’t interested in getting involved in disputes between noble houses.

More seriously, here are my thoughts:

Mesmer: Noble, Common (performers)
Warrior: Universal (although quality of equipment certainly varies)
Thief: Poor (or special forces)
Ranger: Common, Poor
Guardian: Common, Noble (again, quality of equipment will vary)
Engineer: Common, Poor
Elementalist: Common, Noble
Necromancer: Poor, Common

The engineer is an interesting case here. Engineering is a profession that probably requires having at least commoner-level resources, and the more the better – however, what we’ve seen so far indicates a Renaissance-like attitude where inventors are supported by noble patrons, rather than being seen as a pasttime for nobles themselves. Nobles are probably still expected to be either magic-users or knights rather than tinkers. Meanwhile, while it’s unlikely that a “street rat” can become an an engineer from their own resources, bandit gangs do seem to have ample access to engineers. What I suspect is happening there is a few engineers from commoner backgrounds got recruited into the gangs, and the gangs arranged to have some of their brighter members trained in the basics.

draxynnic.3719:

…your guard are Seraph rather than Ministry Guard? Well, that’d explain it. The Seraph aren’t interested in getting involved in disputes between noble houses.

Ohhh shusssh!

In GW1:
The first mesmer we ever see is Lady Althea, and Vasser is buried all the way in Foible’s Fair.
We get Gwen, an important character, right away as a hero, but Norgu isn’t mandatory.

In GW2:
The best known mesmers are Queen Jennah and Countess Anise.
Other than the newly introduced Kasmeer, there just aren’t many other noticeable mesmers.

Combine that with the above comments about style, and I think it’s reasonable that the devs and players enjoy making mesmers to be female.

narwhalsbend.7059:

In GW1:
The first mesmer we ever see is Lady Althea, and Vasser is buried all the way in Foible’s Fair.
We get Gwen, an important character, right away as a hero, but Norgu isn’t mandatory.

In GW2:
The best known mesmers are Queen Jennah and Countess Anise.
Other than the newly introduced Kasmeer, there just aren’t many other noticeable mesmers.

Combine that with the above comments about style, and I think it’s reasonable that the devs and players enjoy making mesmers to be female.

Seems like Mesmer is a feminine profession, indeed. Atleast it shows clearly how nobility looks like, unlike tough players who want to have a big muscle manly man warrior.
Mesmer profession characters are more females than males, I’m sure of that.
Although I do have a male mesmers and female warriors..

Alga.6498:

narwhalsbend.7059:

In GW1:
The first mesmer we ever see is Lady Althea, and Vasser is buried all the way in Foible’s Fair.
We get Gwen, an important character, right away as a hero, but Norgu isn’t mandatory.

In GW2:
The best known mesmers are Queen Jennah and Countess Anise.
Other than the newly introduced Kasmeer, there just aren’t many other noticeable mesmers.

Combine that with the above comments about style, and I think it’s reasonable that the devs and players enjoy making mesmers to be female.

Seems like Mesmer is a feminine profession, indeed. Atleast it shows clearly how nobility looks like, unlike tough players who want to have a big muscle manly man warrior.
Mesmer profession characters are more females than males, I’m sure of that.
Although I do have a male mesmers and female warriors..

I wouldn’t go so far. Vassar was very natural, as were all the male mesmers in GW1. It would be a mistake to say that mesmers are feminine, but I don’t know the right words otherwise. I feel that Norgu made a very good mesmer as well.

EDIT: Just fyi, my main character is a human female noble mesmer, so I certainly understand where this comes from. For me, it might be because of Lady Althea.

I’ll have you all know that necromancy requires years of intense dedication and study into the dark arts. It is not something a mere street rat picks up. It is a life dedicated to following in the footprints of Grenth.

narwhalsbend.7059:

I wouldn’t go so far. Vassar was very natural, as were all the male mesmers in GW1. It would be a mistake to say that mesmers are feminine, but I don’t know the right words otherwise. I feel that Norgu made a very good mesmer as well.

EDIT: Just fyi, my main character is a human female noble mesmer, so I certainly understand where this comes from. For me, it might be because of Lady Althea.

I would agree that it would be a mistake to describe them are feminine. I usually like to describe mesmers as “sophisticated”, since I think it’s a fit description of their many different aspects.

: having or showing a lot of experience and knowledge about the world and about culture, art, literature, etc.

: attractive to fashionable or sophisticated people

: highly developed and complex

@narwhalsbend: On the other side of the equation, though, Headmaster Kaa in Shing Jea is male, and of the mesmer instructors, one is male and the other female (and the male has a larger role in the story and more character overall). The Luxon mesmer hench is female, but the Kurzick one is male. Overall, Cantha and Elona both seem to regard it as more gender-neutral (although as has been commented before, the default Jade Brotherhood Mesmer model is female, as is the Luxon Mesmer, but the Kurzick Mesmer is male).

@Mad Queen Malafide: I wasn’t thinking of it as something that is casually picked up. I was thinking of it more in terms of talented streetkids being taken in as apprentices by necromancers who are looking for one, to be trained in the necromantic arts and the scriptures of Grenth over many years. Necromancers are probably the profession most likely to regard the starting social level of a potential student as irrelevant as long as they show potential, while the lower the initial social level of the potential student, the more likely that becoming a necromancer represents a step up regardless of the stigma.

draxynnic.3719:

@narwhalsbend: On the other side of the equation, though, Headmaster Kaa in Shing Jea is male, and of the mesmer instructors, one is male and the other female (and the male has a larger role in the story and more character overall). The Luxon mesmer hench is female, but the Kurzick one is male. Overall, Cantha and Elona both seem to regard it as more gender-neutral (although as has been commented before, the default Jade Brotherhood Mesmer model is female, as is the Luxon Mesmer, but the Kurzick Mesmer is male).

I wasn’t implying that mesmers were presented as female in Prophecies. The only mesmer henchman in Prophecies is Dunham and there is a very good balance overall.

To me, it’s just that Lady Althea and Gwen stand out the most.