Guild Wars 2

So, according to Majory i am now officially the leader of this band of “adventurers”.

While it was hinted at with the last release, where Kiel introduced me like that, i am still not comfortable with it.

I guess it is easier to write that way and streamlining it makes more sense, but i feel like i get a lot less choice in my character movements and motivations.

We had this topic a bit before, though i cannot find it at the moment, but now it seems like it is the direction they want to go with us.

Was the comment of me being “the boss” just a snarky remark by Majory (or, if i am mistaken Kasmeer at that point) and do i overreact a bit?

I understand that they want to get us in a position where we “lead” however they have to give us options.
I do not think the one option we had towards the end actually had any influence (choosing to go into the town or complimenting Majory.. i do not know)

I personally do not want to be their leader. I want to be on the same level as them, as a band of adventurers (if i have to be, its not like i have a choice)… what are your thoughts?
Do you like being their “boss”?

I don’t like working with them at all.

Honestly, it’s just an awkward way of trying to involve the Player Character (PC) in the story while at the same time allowing the story to be all about the biconics. We don’t have any actual agency (as the title of boss would suggest) and all of our actions and observations are scripted (the scene where “you” notice the stab wounds in the victims – no player actually noticed that, but all our characters said it).

They still want to make the biconics important characters and credit them with things that happen in the story, but doing that in the past meant crediting the biconics with the actions and achievements of the player (this was an issue with Kiel, but it also happened with biconics, fortunately for them the writers started writing things a little differently by the time the biconics became more involved). As their “leader” the assumption is they will always be around, everything we do we do with them now (unenthusiastic “yay”) and anything accomplished (even if it’s done by them, replacing our role in the game’s story) can be credited to us, their “leader”.

Other things that conflict with it come in the form of shrugging off our identities before the biconics even existed. Someone in the new release gives token recognition to our status as a member of the Pact. Our PCs are forced to deliver the line of dialogue “I haven’t been very active lately” or something like that. Even though we took out an Elder Dragon and there is an active conflict with Jormag and Kralkatorrik occuring in Tyria as we know it, we’ve been forced to say we choose to hang out with the biconics instead of act in the superior capacity as a member of the Pact (or even one of the Orders).

At the end of the day the big picture remains the same. The biconics still take the spotlight, we don’t have choices of any kind, our unique histories are nothing but stray mentions and events play out as they would if the PC wasn’t even mentioned by anyone. All that’s changed is a little bit of semantics. We are playing a singular story on train tracks with token recognition that dismisses our past with nothing more than token mentions. It might sound harsh, but play Skyrim or The Walking Dead and see a better (but not perfect) way of giving meaning to our choices and recognition to our identity. Both games still have important NPCs but neither feels like the player has no agency and it always feels like your story, not everyone else’s and you’re just a witness.

I’m going to skip most of your points, since in the past I’ve said all I feel I have to say, but on the issue of our ‘scripted’ contributions this patch- I actually thought that part was well done. We were more or less trading off with Marjory as far as the discoveries and deductions went, and that simultaneously managed to avoid feeling like sitting through someone else’s show, like the investigation way back in Dragon Bash did, and feeling like a very transparent bone being tossed to the players with the mildly insulting feeling that we were supposed to be grateful for it, like the Study in Scarlet instance. Similarly, I don’t mind at all that we weren’t given choice- I mean, what would our choices actually be in that situation? Put our foot in our mouth and publicly embarrass ourselves, or get it right and progress the story? I’d say the streamlined approach is another improvement over Study, and the places where our choices from way back when made up for it- playing through, I picked out two dialogues that my character was only able to contribute on account of his race, and it actually felt like me positively being able to bring something valuable because of who I’d chosen to be, rather than a simple nod to the fact I have green skin.

Jaken.6801:

I guess it is easier to write that way and streamlining it makes more sense, but i feel like i get a lot less choice in my character movements and motivations.

Jaken.6801:

I understand that they want to get us in a position where we “lead” however they have to give us options.

Personally I’m fine with the way it is and branching plot lines do require additional work which I’d rather see them put into making the main story shine.

Jaken.6801:

I personally do not want to be their leader. I want to be on the same level as them, as a band of adventurers (if i have to be, its not like i have a choice)… what are your thoughts?
Do you like being their “boss”?

I think it’s a question of role playing. I can see my Blood Legion Charr Necro wanting to be in charge, but not so much my Human Guardian who would probably be happy to be an equal. Putting us in charge is probably the safer route since if you recall some of the feedback regarding the Personal Story the lack of authority was a problem to some and some players had problems with S1 where we weren’t heroic enough or something.

“Shrugging off our identities” how?

Each human backstory has different dialogue with Belinda.

I’ve heard Asura get hailed and praised from Taimi for their personal story actions, and asked to co-author her book.

I’m unsure what the Charr/Norn/Sylvari get, but I plan to play through the LS with each race and at least each class (as Engineers get special dialogue).

As Kalavier said, each race (and engineers) all get unique dialogues here and there.

Charr tend to get unique lines with Rox, knowing about the charr system that other races don’t. Norn tend to get unique lines with Braham. Sylvari have gotten unique responses (and lines) from Kasmeer’s anti-sylvari mentions in the past (and in this update, they recognized the Soundless mantra according to Aaron).

Jaken.6801:

I personally do not want to be their leader. I want to be on the same level as them, as a band of adventurers (if i have to be, its not like i have a choice)… what are your thoughts?
Do you like being their “boss”?

I think it makes sense from both a story version and a development version.

In the latter, they need to call you something. So it’s either “boss” or “leader”, using a title like “Dragonslayer” (used in final Victory or Death instance) or “Commander” (which we haven’t done much as anyways), or going with general “you”. I personally do not want to be called “hey you” by those I work with constantly.

In the former, we have more experience than the others. We defeated Zhaitan and an Ancient Karka (and then some) before we even met the others, and when Scarlet reared her ugly head, we were there for it all. We have the experience in adventuring and dealing with the big bads that they lack. So they look to the PC for advice, because the PC knows what’s what in the general sense now.

When the game started, we were underlings, basically, beneath Destiny’s Edge. Now, with Zhaitan’s defeat, we’re on par to Destiny’s Edge members and the biconics are under us.

So yes, I do like being “the boss” just because it makes complete literary sense.

People didn’t like the personal story because the player went around and did everything, yet Trahearne was still the ‘leader’ and got all the credit, and people got upset.
People don’t like the living story because the player goes around and does everything, and the player is the ‘leader’ and gets all the credit, and people get upset.

Can’t please everyone.

Trahearne didn’t get all the credit, however. He got some of it, but you still got the majority of it.

Shiren.9532:

I don’t like working with them at all.

Honestly, it’s just an awkward way of trying to involve the Player Character (PC) in the story while at the same time allowing the story to be all about the biconics. We don’t have any actual agency (as the title of boss would suggest) and all of our actions and observations are scripted (the scene where “you” notice the stab wounds in the victims – no player actually noticed that, but all our characters said it).

They still want to make the biconics important characters and credit them with things that happen in the story, but doing that in the past meant crediting the biconics with the actions and achievements of the player (this was an issue with Kiel, but it also happened with biconics, fortunately for them the writers started writing things a little differently by the time the biconics became more involved). As their “leader” the assumption is they will always be around, everything we do we do with them now (unenthusiastic “yay”) and anything accomplished (even if it’s done by them, replacing our role in the game’s story) can be credited to us, their “leader”.

Other things that conflict with it come in the form of shrugging off our identities before the biconics even existed. Someone in the new release gives token recognition to our status as a member of the Pact. Our PCs are forced to deliver the line of dialogue “I haven’t been very active lately” or something like that. Even though we took out an Elder Dragon and there is an active conflict with Jormag and Kralkatorrik occuring in Tyria as we know it, we’ve been forced to say we choose to hang out with the biconics instead of act in the superior capacity as a member of the Pact (or even one of the Orders).

At the end of the day the big picture remains the same. The biconics still take the spotlight, we don’t have choices of any kind, our unique histories are nothing but stray mentions and events play out as they would if the PC wasn’t even mentioned by anyone. All that’s changed is a little bit of semantics. We are playing a singular story on train tracks with token recognition that dismisses our past with nothing more than token mentions. It might sound harsh, but play Skyrim or The Walking Dead and see a better (but not perfect) way of giving meaning to our choices and recognition to our identity. Both games still have important NPCs but neither feels like the player has no agency and it always feels like your story, not everyone else’s and you’re just a witness.

I’ll start by saying you are not absolutely NOT a special snowflake, you don’t have a unique history, thousands of players made the same choices you did, wear the same armor you do, probably even with the same colors, you are NOT special. As far as you being mad about being called ‘boss’ go replay the personal story and you can be an underling again, a vast quantity of players posted complaints about not being the leader of the pact, Anet listened. Now your complaining that they did what players wanted, not to mention it makes perfect sense story wise

Besides, Marjory told Belinda stories about your stuff in the personal story, and the others likely heard or knew of those stories as well.

Of course they are going to seriously consider and take advice from such a seasoned adventurer, especially since out of the five of them, only two have experiance. Marjory and Rox. Kasmeer and Braham are brand new to this stuff, and Taimi is a teenager.

Basically, we took a vacation after defeating Zhaitan, and ended up doing all the season 1 stuff. We’ve not actively commanded Pact forces for a year or two now, though as Belinda says, if they move against another dragon we’ll likely get called. The conflict with Jormag and Kralk are holding actions. Why are we needed to go babysit forces that were holding the line the entire time we fought Zhaitan and the Risen? Now if we were for example, actively pushing North into the far shiverpeaks, then I’d question why the Commander wasn’t called ‘back into service’. But they aren’t.

Kalavier.1097:

“Shrugging off our identities” how?

Each human backstory has different dialogue with Belinda.

I’ve heard Asura get hailed and praised from Taimi for their personal story actions, and asked to co-author her book.

I’m unsure what the Charr/Norn/Sylvari get, but I plan to play through the LS with each race and at least each class (as Engineers get special dialogue).

It’s token recognition. It doesn’t meaningfully impact the story. It’s more of a shout out than anything else. It’s impossible to have meaningful recognition of our past when the conclusion is the same regardless of what is said or done. Every player, no matter what race or choice they make in the Personal Story – ends up with essentially the same story and conclusions.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I’m going to skip most of your points, since in the past I’ve said all I feel I have to say, but on the issue of our ‘scripted’ contributions this patch- I actually thought that part was well done. We were more or less trading off with Marjory as far as the discoveries and deductions went, and that simultaneously managed to avoid feeling like sitting through someone else’s show, like the investigation way back in Dragon Bash did, and feeling like a very transparent bone being tossed to the players with the mildly insulting feeling that we were supposed to be grateful for it, like the Study in Scarlet instance. Similarly, I don’t mind at all that we weren’t given choice- I mean, what would our choices actually be in that situation? Put our foot in our mouth and publicly embarrass ourselves, or get it right and progress the story? I’d say the streamlined approach is another improvement over Study, and the places where our choices from way back when made up for it- playing through, I picked out two dialogues that my character was only able to contribute on account of his race, and it actually felt like me positively being able to bring something valuable because of who I’d chosen to be, rather than a simple nod to the fact I have green skin.

I don’t think the Study in Scarlet instance was superior – while it offered options, there was only one correct option, which defeated the purpose of options in the first place. That I agree one. I don’t think having a single option is good, just that have three fake options all leading the one correct options is a worse alternative than not offering options in the first place.

I didn’t do it on a sylvari (I was on a charr) and while I did see couple token nods to my race, nothing that mattered. I since did it on an asura and again, some nods to my race (specifically with Taimi) but again, nothing that mattered. From what I’ve read, sylvari are the only ones that had any lines with actual weight (the bit about the Soundless) but the truth is, it doesn’t matter because charr, asura, human and norn players all continue without it.

It’s problematic for me because we have a single path to go down, any choices you make or made won’t change that. When you are always going to go down the same path, any options or token recognition given to you leading up to that path don’t matter. Maybe it’s just a best case scenario for a story with limited resources and only one path you can go down. You don’t have any choices (because that means more work to duplicate content for each choice) and any choices you made in the past are at best, inconsequentially mentioned. People were happy that your status as Prior is mentioned as helping Marjory’s request, players of the Vigil know it didn’t matter because we get the information anyway.

Even with the role we are given – leader. You don’t play as a leader, you are scripted as leader. It would be no different if you were a silent witness to a sixth character that was a leader. When I play Civilization I am the leader. When I play Age of Empires I am the leader. In the Personal Story I am the leader (scripted options, but at least they were all real). In the Living Story I am scripted as the leader, but as a player I never lead.

I’m not saying the story didn’t recognise our race, class, participation in season one or some personal story decisions. I’m saying none of that mattered. It was token recognition.

For the record, the mail you get from E setting off season two is one telling you about an Elder Dragon. We are investigating an Elder Dragon, as members of the Pact does it make sense we wouldn’t in some way talk to the Pact about this? Even if we are doing reconnaissance, this is the kind of thing the Pact is supposed to be doing.

“It havs n meaning or weight” According to you maybe.

But how would it have weight otherwise? How could they mention your characters past (Human noble/commoner/etc) in some way that’d make such a drastic weighty dialogue full of meaning?

How is the dialogue ‘token nods to your race’ that have no meaning? Marjory was a member of the Priory, what your name would’ve done is simply perhaps made it smoother.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see how all the dialogue is just token recognition with zero weight.

Christ, what do you want? Five different storylines, depending on your race? Or 5 × 3 = 15 different ones, depending on your race/order combination? Or 5 × 3 × 8 = 120 different ones, depending on race, order, and class combination, every two weeks?

Content is being delivered here every two weeks, and in any RPG each branch in the storyline increases the amount of work required geometrically. Even single-player RPG’s that take years to make, which tout player choice and storyline divergence above all, usually have large portions of the game the same for every player. You could argue “oh, a character dies and they’re not in my squad any more, but that’s just a cutscene. It changes dialogue for the rest of the game, but that’s just lip service”.

“Personal story” doesn’t mean that you, personally, get to tell professional writers how to write their story. And it’s a good job, since nobody can agree on what they want.

Okay, let me rephrase it.

There does not have to be a lot of “choice” or anything.

I do not mind taking the lead, but it somehow ended up “rushed”.

No one else get`s the feeling of “suddenly you are the leader”

I just feel like we are missing a step here.
- Season 1, we mostly rushed everywhere and were becoming “friends” with everyone.
- Season 2, we are suddenly “their leader”, just because we did the final strike against Scarlet.
Kiel introduces us to the Master of Peace and now we get dialog saying we are in the lead just because we did what had to be done at that point and thanks to convinient writing were the only ones to do so (yeah, i could have written, thanks to the circumstances, but at this point it is tomato tomata for me. But i liked the ending mostly)

There was no indication or any dialog that the group, who still travels their own merry ways most of the time, has elected me their lead.

Even if it was something that goes “without saying” I would have liked at least some dialog options where my character questions his new “role”. Something like:

P: “don`t call me that, since when i am the boss?”
M: “Well, you took down Scarlet and a giant Dragon, who else should it be?”
P: “You got me there, but how about the others?”
M: “As far as i know, no one has a problem there. You are a good friend and dependable person. we trust you.”
etc…

Or at least something like that. Just a little piece of dialog that explains the new position our character is in.
In the whole personal story we get promoted or asked if we want to hold a certain position. Trahearn askes me to be his comander for example.

Being suddenly the leader of them, without saying just feels a bit wrong and could certainly be handled better in my opinion.

Jaken.6801:

I just feel like we are missing a step here.
- Season 1, we mostly rushed everywhere and were becoming “friends” with everyone.
- Season 2, we are suddenly “their leader”, just because we did the final strike against Scarlet.

We’re not really just the leader because we killed Scarlet, we did take the lead several times during S1, although perhaps the representation of this within S1 wasn’t the best.

CureForLiving.5360:

Jaken.6801:

I just feel like we are missing a step here.
- Season 1, we mostly rushed everywhere and were becoming “friends” with everyone.
- Season 2, we are suddenly “their leader”, just because we did the final strike against Scarlet.

We’re not really just the leader because we killed Scarlet, we did take the lead several times during S1, although perhaps the representation of this within S1 wasn’t the best.

And that is exactly my point actually.
In S1 they were still figuring out how to drive, got it workable towards the end, but now, with the months break in between, they start off full speed.

This switch from “friend” to “leader” was not very well executed and it left me a bit confused.

I know they want to streamline things. Thats why they put our the big blog post about how they will continue the story from now on, however that does not mean we have to accept everything.
The switch just was lost in translation in my opinion and it disconnects me somehow from that aspect story (which can get interesting, i am not sure at the moment. I hope my predictions are wrong).

I hope they adress that in some way or the other in the future.
I personaly do not like the biconics enough after S1 to have them “suddenly” pushed into my arms to “care for”, without any explanation why.
I just would like a line, mentioning or whatever explaining how we got this “honor”, aside from: “you are the boss now”, no explanation needed.
(and yes, i am aware of the fact that it does no have to said, because deeds speak for themselves, but right now i see majory more in charge then me and i am actually fine with it)

They are okay on their own, though

Hmmm.

Given this seems more rooted in “I don’t like the B-iconics” more than complaining about the story or the player’s place in it, I find myself wondering what’s the point of trying to argue or even discuss things.

You know, I can’t help but shake the feeling if S2 had none of them until much later in the story and it was “player and whomever else he could party with” there’d be complaints about how it felt like it was “us vs the world” until NPCs entered the picture. (For personal reference, I had way too much of that sensation doing most of Prophecies quests. Not so much the missions, but the quests . . . )

I’d really rather the developers focus on giving us a coherent storyline which we can follow without needing to jump to immense speculation or try to figure out how disconnected parts join into a whole. I’d rather they work deeply on developing the characters they have rather than slice them out “just because”.

If I want an engrossing story where I can be impressed by the writing, I’ll crack open some Timothy Zahn. (Highly recommend my current re-read: “The Icarus Hunt”, for how to work a classic mystery and have it unfold in layers.) If I want a game where I feel like a hero and the center of attention, I still haven’t finished Morrowind. If I want to play a game with a good storyline with plenty of branching choices? I can dust off my PS2 and Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne.

Ah, good old Nocturne… Sadly it always crashed for me…

However, while i admit that i am not so fond of the biconics after S1, i admited that i like them as characters and i am courious to see if they are better integrated in S2.
That however is my personal opinion.

What i put out to discussion was mearly the fact that the transition from “friend” or “comrade in battle against Scarlet” to “leader of the biconics”

I can understand Kiel calling me that, since I killed Scarlet and she need to introduce me in some way to the Master of peace. Political talk, etc.

However, as long as Majory`s comment was not a “snarky” remark, it would mean that the writers now go with the idea that we are accepted by all as the “leader”

The problem is, we were never asked to do so.
We never saw the question brought up in any way, since till now and in general, this is stil just a loose group of adventurerers (shown by the fact that are still going their merry ways most of the time and only seem to come together when called. By E for example)

The group does not have a name like Destiny`s Edge, nor are they registrated as a guild.

It is just a group of “friends” or people going into the same direction.

Our character is supposed to be a part of this group. He is supposed to experience stuff and evolve with them as they are with you. Subsequently we need to know if it was a decided by mutual consent of the group outside the parts we have seen, the writers skipping out on a few lines and we just have to accept our new position.
Or if if it was something else.

Right now I can only asume why am the leader, but I do not know how I got this position.
- Was everyone okay with it?
- Was there someone against it?
- How does each individual feel about me taking the “lead”?
- Was our character allowed to vote as well? (Which does not have to end in a branching storyline, or different ways. It could be some simple lines of dialog, which could help evolve our own character and give more insight into the others. Creating a benefit for both sides)
- When did it happen?

Again. If you are thinking I want big giant branching tree in the story, then you are mistaken.
I actually just want to know how our Character ended up in that position, which is not based on us players outside of the game asuming that we just are.

Jaken.6801:

Ah, good old Nocturne… Sadly it always crashed for me…

If you don’t mind taking a step down, check for Digital Devil Saga. It also will allow you to satisfy that itch for “eight slot skill builds”. Also? Can be tough as balls, but unlike the previous game it doesn’t require a guide to get through.

Again. If you are thinking I want big giant branching tree in the story, then you are mistaken.

More that I want to address that particular sentiment others have brought up rather than your own points.

I actually just want to know how our Character ended up in that position, which is not based on us players outside of the game asuming that we just are.

Well, we were the ones who staked Scarlet. Not Kasmeer or anyone else. And from the NPC point of view, our Character was always at the forefront and so were the B-iconics, so it wound up being an assumption we haven’t deliberately kicked in the teeth like we were asura-punting.

At least we’re not the leader like this guy was the leader. Then I’d have to quit PvE and move on to WvW.

GOOD GRIEF
It seems someone always has something to complain about.

Basically, you took control during S1. You were the one who took all the action, so people just started treating you with more deference, giving you more of the responsibility, and eventually, it just kind of set in everyone’s mind that you were in charge because you knew what you were doing. If you’re in a group of people, and one person is good at making big decisions, you don’t sit and have a formal discussion and say, “Okay, I think Bobby should be the one in charge.” You just do it. You don’t need to know when. It just happens if everyone recognizes the same thing.

seriously do you really care THAT MUCH about a couple lines of dialogue that make a transition into “power” smoother so much that you can write paragraphs upon paragraphs arguing about it?