Guild Wars 2

I really do love the lore of this game. I love the concept of the elder dragons and the lore behind them.

But….

That final fight against Zhaitan is quite possibly the worst thing ever.

He’s huge and I love the design but uh…..some clarification as to how he managed to raise Orr from the depths of the sea would be nice because he sure as heck didn’t do it physically. Magically? shrugs

Soooo a bunch of cannons can apparently kill the Elder Dragon of undeath. Cannons fired from an air ship that somehow managed to stay in the air as well as keep its overall heading despite Zhaitan flying into it and obliterating its forward hull.

That whole fight just rendered the dragons as weak, overhyped creatures, despite us only having seen one. It set the expectation.

Now we don’t actually see Zhaitan die. We merely see him claw around as he plummets into darkness. He’s undead. One hopes that cannon fire and loss of limb wouldn’t be as harmful as we’re led to believe especially since, if we follow the rule of zombies, no direct damage was inflicted to his head.

I’m not sure how they’ll handle Orr in the next Xpac. Correct me if I’m wrong but the risen are kept alive through Zhaitan so chronologically speaking, if they’re still there in the next Xpac after his death…..hmmm.

So lets theorize. How WOULD Zhaitan survive?
I can’t recall where in the air they were fighting but I assume he fell into the sea.

Perhaps encountering Bubbles?

I dunno. I just really really hope he isn’t dead and there’s a much better story to tell concerning the ED’s rather than “KILL IT WITH FIRE!”

How would Zhaitan survive?

Simple.

He wasn’t alive to begin with.

I can’t believe the Pact didn’t even send someone down to go look and see if he was still squirming.

Oglaf.1074:

How would Zhaitan survive?

Simple.

He wasn’t alive to begin with.

I can’t believe the Pact didn’t even send someone down to go look and see if he was still squirming.

Right?

And I thought just now, he’s made up of other dragons. Loss of limb is probably a regular occurrence when vying for territory from the others and their champions.

Seems to me that Zhaitan is more of a malevolent entity rather than a physical being; it simply possessed a few dead dragons and made a makeshift body by merging them together.

Y’know, sorta like Sauron.

Even the tokens we aquire in Arah after Z’s death are ambiguous.

“A small piece of Zhaitan, forever dead.”

It could mean that Zhaitan was considered dead previous to being “killed” and will forever be considered dead. Or it could mean that Zhaitan was considered alive/undead previous to being “killed” and is now considered actually dead.

If logic dictates that the simplest answer is true then I think that he is actually dead, and the message got lost through a bad bit of storytelling.

Oglaf.1074:

Seems to me that Zhaitan is more of a malevolent entity rather than a physical being; it simply possessed a few dead dragons and made a makeshift body by merging them together.

Y’know, sorta like Sauron.

I can see that. I think it might be a lot harder to write for however since unless there’s a way we don’t know yet, it would render Zhaitan unkillable. The Ring was Sauron’s grip to life. What would be Zhaitan’s?

That aside, Zhaitan’s “death” allows for travel to Elona now. This for me, presents perhaps the most logical way Zhaitan could return and that’s through Palawa Joko. Perhaps Palawa has been made a champion and senses his master’s distress? Was a deal made?

Oreoz.2573:

That aside, Zhaitan’s “death” allows for travel to Elona now. This for me, presents perhaps the most logical way Zhaitan could return and that’s through Palawa Joko. Perhaps Palawa has been made a champion and senses his master’s distress? Was a deal made?

Hmmm. lore is explaining that area that was once the crystal dessert is now occupied by Kalkatorix his forces. So the short answer would be no Elona isn’t open. It made me think however.

The flow of Elona river is reversed running through what whas once known as the crystal dessert.

The center of Kalkatorix his realm (I guess it is the purple spot at the end of the dragonbrand) is still far away from Elona river. and we actually cross the Elona river delta at Fort Trinity, wich is now under our control. So it wouldn’t be hard in my imagination to take a boat, go up river and meet maybe only a few minor branded creatures, but mostly Palawa’s minions.

Palawa’s role in Elona AND the new flow of Elona river did had me wonder bout the connection between Zhaitan and him. The river would be an easy corridor between their forces, and they both need the same resources for their army and power (dead body’s). hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…….

I know that this is more a theory craft thread, but on the ‘risen karka’ thread, a dev worded a response that claimed that Zhaitan is dead…dead

There is no connection between Palawa Joko and Zhaitan that we know of, the only thing we do know is he was an “up and coming” king of Elona at the time Mad King Thorn was alive.

Do we really need another thread on this topic? Isn’t there already three or four of them already, with at least two on the front page? Anyways…

1. The cannons were magically designed by Zojja based on Snaff and the Inquest’s research on the Elder Dragons to be specifically anti-Zhaitan (as was that megalaser).
2. Nothing ever states Zhaitan himself is undead. He’s an Elder Dragon of Undeath. Saying he is undead is like saying Jormag is ice, or Kralkatorrik is crystal. But ice and crystal don’t bleed. They’re called the Elder Ice/Fire/Undeath/Crystal Dragons because they control such and that’s what their corruption creates (and in the case of Kralkatorrik, he can become a sandstorm of crystals).
3. The risen don’t just go and disappear with Zhaitan’s death – they just lose their maker and highest leader. Champions still hold self-will, and control over the weaker risen, and there are still plenty of risen about. It’s unclear if the champions can continue to make more risen, but either way they’re a dying breed – just not dead yet with Zhaitan’s defeat. But given the lack of risen in Southsun Cove, they’re probably close to such by the time the karka come about. So we’ll likely never see risen in new content ever again, except maybe some unknown stragglers.
4. Zhaitan fell onto the ground – he was very much clearly still on land. And a tower the size of himself landed on top of him. A good portion of him probably got squished.
5. We were actually supposed to see his corpse in Arah explorable. I’m not sure if we actually can, but no one afaik, has reported such.

Oglaf.1074:

I can’t believe the Pact didn’t even send someone down to go look and see if he was still squirming.

Who said they didn’t?

Oreoz.2573:

Perhaps Palawa has been made a champion and senses his master’s distress? Was a deal made?

I somehow doubt a champion would be facing his own master. See The Movement of the World “This undead armada has cut off all human contact with Cantha, and the dragon’s undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border, preventing all in Tyria from departing for other lands…for now. "

If anything, Zhaitan and Joko are outright rivals. I’m actually sad that we didn’t meet any Elonian undead and Mordant Crescent in Orr working with the Pact.

Besides, as mercury said, there’s still Kralkatorrik in the northern Crystal Desert. While the Dragonbrand ended at Glint’s sanctuary, he flew off somewhere without continuing the Dragonbrand, so his exact location for the past five years has been left unknown. And even ignoring this, we get from the Desert Gate Guards in Fields of Ruin this:

“This gate serves as a barrier against the Crystal Desert. Letting you through would be condemning you to death. Dark events have befallen the desert.”
What dark events?
“Truth be told, we don’t know, exactly. We’ve only heard whispers. We’ve been unable to contact Elona since its last refugees fled the desert to Divinity’s Reach.”

Note: The “last refugees” would be from 50 years ago, approximately.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

I know that this is more a theory craft thread, but on the ‘risen karka’ thread, a dev worded a response that claimed that Zhaitan is dead…dead

Nope. He merely referenced Zhaitan’s defeat. “Defeat”, not death, per say.

Oreoz.2573:

Mystic Starfish.2586:

I know that this is more a theory craft thread, but on the ‘risen karka’ thread, a dev worded a response that claimed that Zhaitan is dead…dead

Nope. He merely referenced Zhaitan’s defeat. “Defeat”, not death, per say.

Which is why I also hope they have more of Zhaitan coming up, otherwise it really is sort of anticlimactic and sets the dragons as not so powerful after all. If you can build anti-Zhaitan supercannons, you can do that for the others as well, especially since the research in question was on Elder Dragons as such, not Zhaitan specifically.

Of course Zhaitan is undead: his body is made up of the dead corpses of lesser dragons!

How much more undead can you get?

The answer is “none”

I’d also be willing to bet a pretty penny on the fact that Jormag consists largely out of his trademark corrupted ice. As scales covering his body at the very least, but I think a lot more personally.

Oglaf.1074:

Of course Zhaitan is undead: his body is made up of the dead corpses of lesser dragons!

How much more undead can you get?

The answer is “none”

Actually, that’s never said. Nor is it really true.

His body looks like it’s a bunch of merged dragons with rotten skin. Doesn’t mean it is.

And in the Making of Guild Wars 2 the description for the concept art of Zhaitan they based it on simply says “made of dragons” – no mention of “undead” or “dead” in it.

There’s a huge difference between being a coalesce of undead dragons, and looking like it.

Of course, this is all assuming any of them are your traditional living beings – or ever were. Considering they feed on magic, breath magic, are said to be more magical than physical, and for all we know kitten magic, it’s more likely they’re more akin to elementals than living beings (which would more easily explain how Kralkatorrik turns into a sandstorm, how such huge beasts fly so easily, and how Jormag’s blood freezes and Kralk’s blood crystallizes). And you can’t make undead out of that which was never living.

Which is why I prefer to call Zhaitan the “Elder Rot Dragon” – especially since even newly made risen look like they’ve been rotting for at least a year.

Dragon of Decay?

But excellent, means they can pleasantly surprise us all by showing us elder dragons are not such pushovers!

Well, by the time of the final fight with him, Zhaitan was starved, injured, and weakened because of all the stuff you’d been doing around Orr. The other Elder Dragons may not be so easy to weaken or remove from their place of power.

@Konig Des Todes.2086

1. I understand how and why the cannons were able to do what they did, but it was a terrible way to fight Zhaitan. I understand that when dealing with a creature of that size, combat choices are few but with all the mythos surrounding such a beast, we the player deserve a much much better end to it all.

His awakening caused Orr to rise from the depths of the sea. No worries.

Just shoot him? Ugh…..

The whole “our time is now” and “we can do it if we work together” theme is played a little too often against the decidedly much darker backdrop set by the lore of GW1. It just felt rushed.

2. Yes noone ever truly states that Zhaitan himself is undead. And obviously he does bleed. However, possessing the power to reanimate the dead and not being able to do anything for your own self is just a little unbelievable, at least to me. He’s made up of other dragons and while we don’t know the true history of these guys, it’s interesting that he would be so when the others are whole. The Elder Dragon of Undeath is made of other dragons I believe not by creation, but by necessity. Remember they’ve been awake before and for whatever reason the world wasn’t totally destroyed. It’s entirely possible that Zhaitan’s body is the way we see it because he’s lost a limb or two in the past. He’s magical to some degree, since it was his power the humans felt on Orr prior to the Cataclysm. We don’t really know if that magic is limited to simple reanimation and control.

3. Trahearne does say that the risen will slowly be wiped from the face of the earth as they are no longer being created at the rate they were before. In other words, I guess they will be around post future Xpacs. Can’t suddenly have Orr…er…friendly I guess lol

4. Here is a link to a video of the fight.

It’s impossible to tell at 10:25 if he hits the ground or not and the tower appears to fall perpendicular to his body. As far as being able to see his corpse, I did some research and this thread on Guru was the best I could come up with, as they made those statements about being able to see it prior to release.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/72448-zhaitans-remains/

As it appears, noone can either find it or see it and something so amazing shouldn’t or wouldn’t be skewed from the player’s view, assuming it was Anet’s intention to kill him off intentionally. So it would appear we still have no clue where he landed and if Anet did end up scrapping the idea of being able to see his corpse I can only surmise there wasn’t enough time to model it, or they wanted to leave themselves options lorewise because the final fight was rushed. Felt rushed anyway.

Regarding a Pact investigation, we don’t know if they went to investigate or not. It would be the logical thing to do though. Like seriously, take us down and lets make sure he’s dead. lol

I’m not sure why Zhaitan and Palawa would be rivals. “Rivals” implies that Joko is a match for Zhaitan and uh…well….one assumes that’s not the case. Last we heard Joko was quite comfortable as ruler of Elona after his conquering of Vabbi. It only makes sense that to me that Zhaitan would make him a champion.

“Hey, you have an undead army? So do I! Wanna work for me? Cool.”

Remember, Zhaitan woke up before Kralkatorrik so it’s entirely possible he got to Joko first. Perhaps now that Zhaitan has been “defeated” Joko fears for the loss of his Kingdom to Kralkatorrik and makes a bid to resurrect Zhaitan. Or maybe he’ll seek to claim the dragon’s power. But I’m merely theorycrafting at this point.

My final point is that we truly do not know the final fate of Zhaitan and it is my sincerest hope that he makes a return in some form or another to redeem that god awful anticlimactic crap we have now.

So I’ll admit my Palawa Joko theory is bad lol

Zhaitan’s forces were apparently at war, fighting along the Northern Elonian border. Whose turf is that?

Joko’s. lol

BUT

We still don’t know the true fate of the dragon so I hope he comes back.

Oreoz.2573:

He’s made up of other dragons

He looks like he’s made of other dragons.

Oreoz.2573:

when the others are whole

Matter of perspective. From what we’re told of Kralkatorrik, he himself is “more magical than physical” (using Glint’s wording) and he is capable of turning into a sandstorm. It may end up being that no Elder Dragon is “whole” but their body is merely a physical representation of their power and as all people know, energy cannot be destroyed (it just changes forms). Even in Guild Wars this seems to be the case.

Oreoz.2573:

Remember they’ve been awake before and for whatever reason the world wasn’t totally destroyed.

That’s like saying their goal is to destroy. But it doesn’t seem to be. Their goal seems to be to consume and twist until there’s nothing left to do so, where they’ll then go back to sleep to let the world regrow. As Glint says in Edge of Destiny, they consumed until the land was barren and there was nothing left to consume and then they went to sleep during the last awakening.

This is why so many Priory scholars believe they’re part of a cycle of destruction and rebirth of the world – that and jotun lore mentions several cycles of the Elder Dragons where life had to be renewed.

Oreoz.2573:

He’s magical to some degree, since it was his power the humans felt on Orr prior to the Cataclysm.

The Artesian Waters are magical in their own right, and they’re what seems to have drawn the Six Gods to Orr. Orr is just itself a magical land, regardless of the Elder Dragon who’s adding onto that magicalness.

It’s impossible to tell at 10:25 if he hits the ground or not and the tower appears to fall perpendicular to his body. As far as being able to see his corpse, I did some research and this thread on Guru was the best I could come up with, as they made those statements about being able to see it prior to release.

Listen. You hear a nice big “thud” sound. That’s Zhaitan’s body hitting the ground. And yeah, I was a bit wrong about the tower landing on him (though at that angle it looks like it should crush his head, personally, unless he twisted oddly just before hitting the ground) though rubble still lands on him. And yes, the seeing ZHaitan’s corpse in the explorable was pre-release info. I did a lot of digging since I didn’t hear about it being found in the explorable and I found old versions of the Arah map with a nice huge dragon drawn on it – modern maps lack said dragon – it seems that it was the original plan, using an older model of Zhaitan which looks just like the “dead dragon” seen in the first GW2 trailer – before he got remodeled to this, given the “dead dragon” looks a lot more like the earlier concept art of Zhaitan (and there’s still a big similarity with Zhaitan’s horns and a few other tidbits).

There’s even still a Point of Interest in Arah explorable possibly named after Zhaitan’s corpse named “Zhaitan’s Rest.”

And honestly, I could see it being obscure from all those who did the dungeon – I know very very very few folks who’re common posters in lore forums who have done Arah explorable. Let alone every path, looking at all the goodies to be seen.

Oreoz.2573:

I’m not sure why Zhaitan and Palawa would be rivals. “Rivals” implies that Joko is a match for Zhaitan and uh…well….one assumes that’s not the case.

Fine. Enemies. Be picky why don’t you!

I highly doubt that Joko would consent to becoming Zhaitan’s Champion, simply based on what we know of him from GW1. He’s immensely prideful and doesn’t like being inferior to anyone, which suggests that unless Zhaitan was able to physically/mentally bend Joko to his will, Joko would never consent to allowing Zhaitan to rule over him. It COULD happen, but given that Joko’s Bone Palace is far, far away from the sea coast, it’s not likely that Zhaitan’s influence could reach that far.

I do think it’s more feasible that Zhaitan could make a return one day, however. If he is truly a physical manifestation of an innate force in the world, all he needs is time. Eventually, death (or undeath) will build up to a level high enough for him to regain consciousness, form a new body, and rise to menace the world again.

@Konig Des Todes.2086

Lolz, I WILL be picky.

As far as their consummation of the world, yeah I can agree with that. If I recall it was Glint who sheltered the races during that time, yes? I could be wrong. Just spent 20 minutes trying to find where I read that. lol

And yeah admittedly you do hear a thud. Just can’t tell what comes after. Could you imagine a risen just chilling out then next thing he knows his master comes crashing down and sort of bounces off the rock and into the water? lol Like, some stupid risen farmer or something. haha

At any rate Zhaitan IS made up of other dragons. The official wiki says so in the notes and it’s also mentioned in the book that comes with the collector’s edition. It’s the reason he was so hard to model for them. Plus, look at his mouth. lol

And in an interview with Guildmag prior to release, Jeff Grubb did say this:

“Actually, no. When the humans built Orr, they knew it for an extremely magical place but did not know the origin of that magic. (The asura made a similar mistake with their Central Transfer Chamber, which they parked right over Primordus.) If the human gods knew of what slumbered beneath the world, they said nothing. The Tome of Rubicon, from among the dwarves, held some legends that came down of their battle with the Great Destroyer, which was merely a herald of Primordus.”

Full interview: http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-special-zhaitans-secrets

SO THE ELDER DRAGONS ARE CLEARLY GENIES

Bascially what I’m saying is that if you take into account the unclear nature of his “fall”, the decision of Anet to remove his corpse and the fact that he is very much so a genie (lolz), I have a strong feeling he’ll return.

And now i’ll go watch aladdin.

Zaxares.5419:

I highly doubt that Joko would consent to becoming Zhaitan’s Champion, simply based on what we know of him from GW1. He’s immensely prideful and doesn’t like being inferior to anyone, which suggests that unless Zhaitan was able to physically/mentally bend Joko to his will, Joko would never consent to allowing Zhaitan to rule over him. It COULD happen, but given that Joko’s Bone Palace is far, far away from the sea coast, it’s not likely that Zhaitan’s influence could reach that far.

I do think it’s more feasible that Zhaitan could make a return one day, however. If he is truly a physical manifestation of an innate force in the world, all he needs is time. Eventually, death (or undeath) will build up to a level high enough for him to regain consciousness, form a new body, and rise to menace the world again.

yeah someone in another thread disproved my Joko theory when i brought it up. Zhaitan’s forces actually waged war along the Northern Elonian border which, aside from his navy, kept everyone out of Elona.

That northern portion is where Joko’s Bone Palace sits, overlooking the desolation so those are definitely his forces fighting along the border screaming “STOP BLOCKING THE DOOR!” lol

I like the theory of Zhaitan being the physical manifestation of undeath. While I can’t say anymore that he and Joko are bros, I’ll bet that if Zhaitan returns, Joko will be right in the middle of it whether he wants to be or not. lol

Guys remember one thing if Zhaitan appears again then we have Trahearne accompaning us while we fight him. I agree that the fight was terrible but I rather them work on making the next one good instead of brining Zhaitan back and after that we wonder everytime we kill an Elder Dragon if we they are really dead. Also who here would actually want to fight more Risen.

Killul.9685:

Guys remember one thing if Zhaitan appears again then we have Trahearne accompaning us while we fight him. I agree that the fight was terrible but I rather them work on making the next one good instead of brining Zhaitan back and after that we wonder everytime we kill an Elder Dragon if we they are really dead. Also who here would actually want to fight more Risen.

oh yeah i totally agree. If Zhaitan does return I’d rather have it happen later on down the line to avoid repetitiveness.

People for the most part speculate that Jormag will be next due to his current influence on the world but if you think about it, proof of his influence is no more apparent to us than Kralkatorrik’s. All you have to do is take a stroll along the Brand to see that he’s just as influential to the players as a giant tooth hanging in the Great Lodge is. lol

Plus I think it’d be refreshing to open up the deserts of Elona rather than give us more snow maps via the opening of the Far Shiverpeaks (though of course it’s not limited to just that area).

If you look at it logically from a continuity standpoint, it only makes sense to go directly south into the desert since now that Zhaitan is “dead”, passage is no longer blocked.

Plus, I think it’d be nice to actually not deal with an elder dragon again right away and instead we have to deal with Palawa Joko, who would probably want to take advantage of the current shift in the undead power train, now that his forces are no longer occupied with Zhaitan’s along the border (assuming that without leadership, Joko’s forces eventually steamrolled the risen).

I for one think it would be refreshing if the Elder Dragons took a back seat so that Anet could clear up some old lore. However I do still want Zhaitan to make a return.

Perhaps a return made possible somehow through the defeat/influence of Joko?

Who knows? lol

I love GW lore but I hate doing Trahearne’s Story..

FateZero.8536:

I love GW lore but I hate doing Trahearne’s Story..

Hopefully he’ll be gone in the next expansions _
Since his wyld hunt is over I don’t see why would we need a salad person in the following game xD He’s just too OP, he has mesmer, guardian, elementalist skills, that’s just OP and he still manages to die >.> I don’t like dragging noobs with me

Oreoz.2573:

At any rate Zhaitan IS made up of other dragons. The official wiki says so in the notes and it’s also mentioned in the book that comes with the collector’s edition. It’s the reason he was so hard to model for them. Plus, look at his mouth. lol

1) Don’t trust wiki’s wording exactly. Unless it’s a verbatim copy, it’s fan-made paraphrasing of actual lore, in which there can be misconceptions made.

2) “Kekai Kotaki drew an incredible dragon concept for Zhaitan where the dragon itself was composed of dragons. Where its mouth would be, there’s just more dragons.” – key thing to note: concept art This is the concept art in question, and this is his final model. While very similar, take note of the skin – in the concept art, you have hundreds of dragons meshed together. In the final version, you don’t. Yes, there are several dozen dragon heads, but that doesn’t make much. It’s like saying the creatures from the Alien movie series are multiple aliens because it has a “head” within its mouth (the tongue thing).

While entirely possible to be made out of multiple dragons, and that’s what the concept art was, the final version doesn’t look as such – just a dragon with several dozen heads, and eight or so wings (as opposed to 2), and three tails. If Zhaitan was actually several dragons meshed together, then where are all the other legs?. Hell, Zhaitan himself doesn’t have legs (or any kind of lower body except for the tail, for that matter).

While the concept of a dragon made out of dragons is cool, it doesn’t seem that’s what Zhaitan really is, and he just looks like such.

If he really was made out of many dragons, the laser wouldn’t have been so effective – it would have just separated several dragons from him.

3) How the hell do you get genie, especially from that interview?

Oreoz.2573:

yeah someone in another thread disproved my Joko theory when i brought it up. Zhaitan’s forces actually waged war along the Northern Elonian border which, aside from his navy, kept everyone out of Elona.

That someone was me, and I disproved it in this thread to – you just ignored it completely in my earlier post.

Killul.9685:

Guys remember one thing if Zhaitan appears again then we have Trahearne accompaning us while we fight him.

Trahearne mentions how he intends to lead the Pact into fighting five impossible victories (this is before Zhaitan’s defeat).

So he’ll be back for Jormag and the others.

The reason why he wasn’t there for the fight with Zhaitan was because the ritual to cleanse Orr took a lot out of him and he was still busy cleansing Orr afterwards.

And apparently the attack on Zhaitan was the Commander’s plan. lol

While the invasion of orr was a success, it seemed to easy to kill zhaitan. Even if they made the last story that way so it would be easier for a group, it still seemed too easy. Last time the dragons woke it took all the power of 5 ancient races to put them asleep. While they didn’t have the kind of tech back then that they had today, I’m guessing that they had superior magical powers.

Now while the pact forces did weaken zhaitan, from killing mouths and eyes in your story/ dungeon and other pact forces doing their jobs. I’m guessing that if zhaitan isn’t dead, then he just went back to sleep only to awake later when other dragons are causing problems.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Oreoz.2573:

At any rate Zhaitan IS made up of other dragons. The official wiki says so in the notes and it’s also mentioned in the book that comes with the collector’s edition. It’s the reason he was so hard to model for them. Plus, look at his mouth. lol

1) Don’t trust wiki’s wording exactly. Unless it’s a verbatim copy, it’s fan-made paraphrasing of actual lore, in which there can be misconceptions made.

2) “Kekai Kotaki drew an incredible dragon concept for Zhaitan where the dragon itself was composed of dragons. Where its mouth would be, there’s just more dragons.” – key thing to note: concept art This is the concept art in question, and this is his final model. While very similar, take note of the skin – in the concept art, you have hundreds of dragons meshed together. In the final version, you don’t. Yes, there are several dozen dragon heads, but that doesn’t make much. It’s like saying the creatures from the Alien movie series are multiple aliens because it has a “head” within its mouth (the tongue thing).

While entirely possible to be made out of multiple dragons, and that’s what the concept art was, the final version doesn’t look as such – just a dragon with several dozen heads, and eight or so wings (as opposed to 2), and three tails. If Zhaitan was actually several dragons meshed together, then where are all the other legs?. Hell, Zhaitan himself doesn’t have legs (or any kind of lower body except for the tail, for that matter).

While the concept of a dragon made out of dragons is cool, it doesn’t seem that’s what Zhaitan really is, and he just looks like such.

If he really was made out of many dragons, the laser wouldn’t have been so effective – it would have just separated several dragons from him.

3) How the hell do you get genie, especially from that interview?

Oreoz.2573:

yeah someone in another thread disproved my Joko theory when i brought it up. Zhaitan’s forces actually waged war along the Northern Elonian border which, aside from his navy, kept everyone out of Elona.

That someone was me, and I disproved it in this thread to – you just ignored it completely in my earlier post.

Killul.9685:

Guys remember one thing if Zhaitan appears again then we have Trahearne accompaning us while we fight him.

Trahearne mentions how he intends to lead the Pact into fighting five impossible victories (this is before Zhaitan’s defeat).

So he’ll be back for Jormag and the others.

The reason why he wasn’t there for the fight with Zhaitan was because the ritual to cleanse Orr took a lot out of him and he was still busy cleansing Orr afterwards.

And apparently the attack on Zhaitan was the Commander’s plan. lol

The genie thing was a joke. Didn’t expect you to take it seriously.

The concept art you provided and the in-game screen can’t be looked at because it’s two different angles. We can’t see his chest, mainly. It’s common knowledge that he’s made up of other dragons anyway. Just because of that, doesn’t mean he utilized the legs and such. Parts, is the key word here. It’s pretty obvious. Context clues in the book tells us that it’s the model they went with, thus why it was so hard to create.

He’s made up of parts of other dragons, hence the multiple heads, wings and tails and the strange positioning of his arms on his body. It doesn’t have to be whole dragons. That’d be stupid and impractical to an elder dragon who would only take what he needs.
Wings for flight, tails for mobility and heads for power and intimidation.
Apparently he doesn’t need legs. lol

Just look at this photo. Does that look like the result of something natural to you? lol

Better to absorb what he needs: Wings for flight, tails for mobility, and heads……well for power and intimidation. lol

And yes I did realize it was you that disproved my joko theory and I didn’t ignore it. I won’t always see things in the order they get posted on multiple threads so if I formulated the theory just after you disproved it in another thread, it’s because I didn’t read what you said yet. Ignoring it would’ve been not correcting myself at all….which I did. Soon as I saw it.

Kalas.6743:

Last time the dragons woke it took all the power of 5 ancient races to put them asleep. While they didn’t have the kind of tech back then that they had today, I’m guessing that they had superior magical powers.

Actually, the five elder races didn’t put them to sleep – they hid. And precisely – they were magical races.

Fighting the Elder Dragons with magic is like tossing pies at the embodiment of gluttony hoping to kill it.

You’re just feeding the kitten thing, nothing else.

Oreoz.2573:

The genie thing was a joke. Didn’t expect you to take it seriously.

The concept art you provided and the in-game screen can’t be looked at because it’s two different angles. We can’t see his chest, mainly. It’s common knowledge that he’s made up of other dragons anyway. Just because of that, doesn’t mean he utilized the legs and such. Parts, is the key word here. It’s pretty obvious. Context clues in the book tells us that it’s the model they went with, thus why it was so hard to create.

He’s made up of parts of other dragons, hence the multiple heads, wings and tails and the strange positioning of his arms on his body. It doesn’t have to be whole dragons. That’d be stupid and impractical to an elder dragon who would only take what he needs.
Wings for flight, tails for mobility and heads for power and intimidation.
Apparently he doesn’t need legs. lol

Just look at this photo. Does that look like the result of something natural to you? lol

Better to absorb what he needs: Wings for flight, tails for mobility, and heads……well for power and intimidation. lol

And yes I did realize it was you that disproved my joko theory and I didn’t ignore it. I won’t always see things in the order they get posted on multiple threads so if I formulated the theory just after you disproved it in another thread, it’s because I didn’t read what you said yet. Ignoring it would’ve been not correcting myself at all….which I did. Soon as I saw it.

1) “Parts” is never used to describe Zhaitan – just “composed of dragons” and again this is about the concept art.

2) Common knowledge is often false. Just like the “common kowledge” that Joko is warring with Kralkatorrik not Zhaitan – like seemingly just about everyone believes, despite no mention of such ever being even implied, and the opposite is very much truth.

Besides, your “common knowledge” comes from the description of the concept art. And concept art doesn’t always make it in game as is (seldom does, in fact).

3) So what happens to those parts he wouldn’t use? That’s what’s more impractical. If Zhaitan was to be made of other dragons, said dragons would be able to separate and go their separate ways when need be – because under such a situation, that’s what Zhaitan would truly be: a swarm, not a single entity.

4) Whoever said Elder Dragons were natural? I didn’t. I cannot see how they could be, their looks being completely irrelevant (I cannot see natural creatures consuming and exuding magic with no need for eating physical food). I merely stated he’s not made of other dragons (parts or otherwise). It just looks like he is.

5) That photo only proves my point more – look at its chest. See any dragon heads in the skin? Nope. Just looks a bit sinewy.

6) I meant you ignored it in this thread, as your initial response to the post in which I pointed such out never mentioned it – you made a new post after, seemingly, reading my alternative post in said other thread. But this is irrelevant.

I doubt Trahearne would be there on the field leading the Pact for each Dragon. I think Anet will have someone with a personal vendetta against the Dragons. Trahearne stops fighting as soon as his Wyld Hunt is done. I think Trahearne will suprevise the cleansing of Orr and other Pact actvities from the safety of Fort Trinity while we kill the Dragons.

Main counter against that is that Trahearne himself says he intends to continue leading the Pact despite his Wyld Hunt ending, and he intends to lead them through killing five Elder Dragons (including Zhaitan).

The question will be: how up close to the battles will he be?

Maybe we’ll get lucky and Palawo Joko will assassinate him. Nice way to branch into an Elona storyline.

On topic: I’m hoping that Zhaitan is the only dragon that we actually kill while they’re sitting in their lair. T’would be a boring game if the entire story was just “go kill the dragon”. How bout a dragon takes over Divinity’s Reach? Or Kralk invades Ascalon? Or Zhaitan comes back and dukes it out with Bubbles? Joko vs. Kralk? Jormag gets up to evil shenanigans? The possibilities are endless.

Something occurred to me – isn’t asura tech actually technomancy, as in magical technology?
Is that anti-Zhaitan superlaser actually a proper laser or a technomagic weapon?

And Trahearne leading the fight against all the dragons? Please no. For Jormag we need someone with a manly beard.

@Dreamwalker: Personally, the only way I see an Elder Dragon in old zones would be in the form of a new dungeon, and even then you’ll get Gaudrath’s complaint made 10 fold – that once you leave the dungeon, everything’s peachy.

It’s one thing to leave Arah after killing Zhaitan to see the Pact fighting hordes of undead to keep access to Arah, and another thing to leave a dungeon in Divinity’s Reach where Jormag’s sitting in the Upper City, just to see a perfectly dandy place. And you certainly can’t have the standard beginning zones becoming the new big bad’s playground.

@Gaudrath: While Trahearne claims such, I’m sure Anet will work something given the massive player hate (although, imo, greatly over-exaggerated). He’ll likely promote a local to Commander status to lead the attack on the dragon (I bet Sigfast or Skarti for Jormag – though I wouldn’t know who for Kralkatorrik or Primordus).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kalas.6743:

Last time the dragons woke it took all the power of 5 ancient races to put them asleep. While they didn’t have the kind of tech back then that they had today, I’m guessing that they had superior magical powers.

Actually, the five elder races didn’t put them to sleep – they hid. And precisely – they were magical races.

Fighting the Elder Dragons with magic is like tossing pies at the embodiment of gluttony hoping to kill it.

You’re just feeding the kitten thing, nothing else.

Oreoz.2573:

The genie thing was a joke. Didn’t expect you to take it seriously.

The concept art you provided and the in-game screen can’t be looked at because it’s two different angles. We can’t see his chest, mainly. It’s common knowledge that he’s made up of other dragons anyway. Just because of that, doesn’t mean he utilized the legs and such. Parts, is the key word here. It’s pretty obvious. Context clues in the book tells us that it’s the model they went with, thus why it was so hard to create.

He’s made up of parts of other dragons, hence the multiple heads, wings and tails and the strange positioning of his arms on his body. It doesn’t have to be whole dragons. That’d be stupid and impractical to an elder dragon who would only take what he needs.
Wings for flight, tails for mobility and heads for power and intimidation.
Apparently he doesn’t need legs. lol

Just look at this photo. Does that look like the result of something natural to you? lol

Better to absorb what he needs: Wings for flight, tails for mobility, and heads……well for power and intimidation. lol

And yes I did realize it was you that disproved my joko theory and I didn’t ignore it. I won’t always see things in the order they get posted on multiple threads so if I formulated the theory just after you disproved it in another thread, it’s because I didn’t read what you said yet. Ignoring it would’ve been not correcting myself at all….which I did. Soon as I saw it.

1) “Parts” is never used to describe Zhaitan – just “composed of dragons” and again this is about the concept art.

2) Common knowledge is often false. Just like the “common kowledge” that Joko is warring with Kralkatorrik not Zhaitan – like seemingly just about everyone believes, despite no mention of such ever being even implied, and the opposite is very much truth.

Besides, your “common knowledge” comes from the description of the concept art. And concept art doesn’t always make it in game as is (seldom does, in fact).

3) So what happens to those parts he wouldn’t use? That’s what’s more impractical. If Zhaitan was to be made of other dragons, said dragons would be able to separate and go their separate ways when need be – because under such a situation, that’s what Zhaitan would truly be: a swarm, not a single entity.

4) Whoever said Elder Dragons were natural? I didn’t. I cannot see how they could be, their looks being completely irrelevant (I cannot see natural creatures consuming and exuding magic with no need for eating physical food). I merely stated he’s not made of other dragons (parts or otherwise). It just looks like he is.

5) That photo only proves my point more – look at its chest. See any dragon heads in the skin? Nope. Just looks a bit sinewy.

6) I meant you ignored it in this thread, as your initial response to the post in which I pointed such out never mentioned it – you made a new post after, seemingly, reading my alternative post in said other thread. But this is irrelevant.

I have been reading these threads for awhile now, but Jesus dude, konig you are the biggest know it all I have ever seen, you cannot be corrected or wrong at all, it’s just ridiculous watching you backpedal all over the place and act like your word is law. Zhaitan is clearly made up of multiple dragon piece, parts, or beings. Let it go. The official wiki says he is made up of it, yet you, who has no official ties, is telling everyone that the official wiki is wrong, and you are clearly right… Come on now. No offense meant but there is a possibility you are wrong.

Either way I really enjoy the lore in the gw series, and the elder dragons, to me I am really excited about getting back in and going over things I may have missed before.

I don’t act like my word is law or any kitten like that.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

The official wiki says

And whatever the official wiki says has to be true, because, you know, it’s not written by the community at all!

My point being is: look at him – the line about him being made of multiple dragons is referring to the concept art and was put on the wiki before the game’s release – and the body of Zhaitan itself is different enough to show that it’s not the same idea. Yes, he has several dozen heads, even has heads coming from no where out of the palm of his hand/claw. But if you look at his skin, he’s very clearly a single entity. He just has multiple heads – much like a hydra, though in a different manner.

If people were to use their eyes and think, it becomes pretty clear.

BTW, those heads have a name given to them: Tendril of Zhaitan

How does his skin matter? If he has the ability to merge various corpses, of course there’s going to be some sort of skin-like membrane covering them all to keep them together.

Just look at his hands: one is huge and one is tiny. Obviously taken from different dragons!

Each set of limbs are equal in size to me. Of course, each side has limbs of different sizes.

And skin matters because you can see the texture of his muscles as well.

Zhaitan is made up of parts of either dragons.

They are either parts we can see (heads, multiple wings or tails, scraggly looking skin) or they are made up of parts we can’t see.

Think about it, how stupid would the following exchange sound:

“So here is Zhaitan, our Elder Dragon of Undeath. A while back one of our artists came up with this great concept art of him, the big feature being the fact that he is composed of other dragons. We definitely knew it’d be a challenge to model.”

“Wow cool! He looks awesome! Look at all the heads! He’s got like 14 wings! I feel bad for those other dragons.”

“What other dragons?”

“The ones he’s made up of.”

“No, that in-game model there? He’s not made up of other dragons. he just looks like it.”

“Wait….what?”

“Yeah, we decided not to go with that idea but we kept the initial design.”

“So he just looks like he’s made up of other dragons?”

“Yep.”

“So why does he have all those heads?”

“Those are tendrils.”

“They look like heads.”

“Tendrils.”

“Well in that case, why are they protruding from his mouth and not say, all over his body?”

“It looked cooler.”

“So what about those hundreds of thousands of players who think he’s made up of other dragons?”

“We figured they’d understand he’s not when they looked at him.”

“Even though it’s an almost exact, albeit slightly modified, replica of that concept art you mentioned….”

“Yes.”

-_-

Trahearne ran away when it was time to kill Zhaitan so it unlikely he will fight other Dragons when he doesn’t have a personal stake in them. Givien the rest of the personal story I doubt Anet would be able to make Trahearne good enough to be actually be likeable and hope after the terrible job they did they don’t have the confidence to contuine with him.

PS. Can anyone else not edit reply or report?

Konig, as someone who does game art on a professional level, I can tell you that the ingame Zhaitan model is definitely made according to the concept art.
It’s just that it is not as complex and detailed since you have polygon counts and texture sizes to take into account… concept art renders are usually much more detailed than the stuff you actually get ingame. But the most important features used in the concept art are there, so it is quite safe to assume that Zhaitan is composed of multiple dragons, regardless of visual discrepancies.

Even if it was flat (thus avoiding the issue of polygon counts), they still could have drawn dragon “motifs” (as that’s what it’d be drawn as, more or less) on his skin.

That depends. Sometimes certain things that look great on a concept render look awful when put on a game model. So then the artist has to change certain stuff into something similar that works.
You can’t just put a flat texture onto a model, that looks terrible, depending on what you’re going for your texture has to approximate the finer detail as much as possible… there are many techniques for that, from normal maps to global illumination baking but they all have one problem – the finer the detail, the larger the texture has to be.
So with the concept art such as it is (lots of crevices and fine detail) that might have required textures that were too large and some detail was dropped.

It is also a question of design… a still render can show off a lot of detail, but a moving ingame model might not simply because players do not look at it standing still for any amount of time – any detail beyond a certain threshold is just lost to the players.
So resources that would have to be used to draw that thing onscreen can be instead better used for something else.

In any case, looking at the ingame model and concept art, it’s the same thing, trust me.

I think you misunderstood me but whatever.

I stand by “having multiple heads != being multiple dragons” – perhaps I just need a better look at Zhaitan, but he still looks like a single entity no matter how much I studied him while the rest of my group hammered him down during my last two runs through. An eldritch abomination of a single entity, but a single one nonetheless.

Or rather half of a single eldritch abomination. The thing just cuts off halfway into tails, looking rather incomplete. There’s bound to be a Hind Legs of Zhaitan roaming around somewhere, I bet.

When it comes to Trahearne, my personal desire is that somewhere in the beginning of the next expansion the Nightmare Court kidnaps him and converts him into nightmare.

At such point, we get the opportunity to kill him.

Either that or we’ll be in the middle of a big speech about defeating the dragons, then Jormag flies by, eats him, blows something up, and flies off.

Me? I hope he isn’t dead, because ‘killing’ what amounts to a Cthulhu-esque eldritch abomination is about as de-clawing of a setting as you can get. It takes away the dramatic weight of the Elder Dragons by making them things that you can pull the ol’ Indiana Jones maneuver on. Prior to launch, and prior to Orr, Zhaitan was made to be something that made even the Gods tremble in fear, that was poised to end all civilization.

… and then he goes out like a chump, after losing battle after battle, because of the magical plot armour of Professor Trahearne and his plucky sidekick [Insert Player Name Here].

Not to mention, being able to kill the Elder Dragons makes everyone who didn’t pick the Vigil look like absolute idiots. I mean, the Durmand Priory thought that some lost lore would save us all, the Order of Whispers believed that the elder dragons could only be put back to sleep. It was only the meathead Vigilites that said ‘ kitten LETS SHOOT IT OR STAB IT WITH SWORDS’. And having one of the three Orders conclusively right, with none of the other theories having any sort of credence or validity just rubs me the wrong way.

Stupid Vigilites.

Well. The way we killed Zhaitan was with technology, not swords. So really it was the Priory that turned out to be correct – we won with research and discovery.

you can’t say that any of the factions got it wrong really… yes, the Vigil had the manpower and experience to bring the fight to Zhaitan, but it was the methods of the Priori that gave the Pact the means to defeat him …and without the Whispers laying the ground for cross-race communication and cooperation, the Pact would not even exist

in short, the factions were only wrong in that they thought their way alone was sufficient