Guild Wars 2

I’ve done a bunch of really big mistakes, like trusting completely random people with important equipment and attempting entire missions with just me + other generals and no soldiers. But my recent mistake takes the cake.

A large portion of my army has defected and is exposed to more defection. I authorize a guy to continue serving with a platoon of other tree people as long as he executes his comrades that attempt to defect. Not only is that needlessly pyrrhic, but they could cause dramatic damage to the mission. Trusting them in the vanguard or the rear can prove detrimental if they are easilly overrun, and for all you know they could all be sleepers just pretending to be semi sentient. But my character doesn’t want to be a tree racist, so I let them continue serving.

Rationally i’d detain them all until you can either get radio wave blockers on them or genocide them, since letting even a few divisions of them go can ravage your supply lines/massacre towns if things go wrong. Considering the vigil and lions arch have access to a ton of natural resources and trade routes with their recent conquest, losing a handful of divisions won’t be a death sentence to the movement.

If you want to go down this route, the Sylvari are actually the most trustworthy soldiers now in my opinion beside the Charr. They are the only races who have outlawed their powerhungry counterpart and banished them from their home base.

Norn:
Sons of Svanir sit all smug in Hoelbrak. You basically can run into them everywhere in the city. Most Norn are notoriously stubborn and independent if I remember well, so how about your army discipline?
Humans:
A prime minister is the current villain, and the strongest human nation is run by pirates. And everybody knows how trustworthy pirates are, right?^^
Asura:
Beside being smurfs Asura not only tolerate the Inquest, they actually give them a place in their council. If you are looking for people who are willing to conduct a genocide for various reasons, look no further.

So what does stop sleeper agents from all these races to suddenly run amok in your army?
Besides, commanding people to slaughter any Sylvari would have been water on the mills of Mordremoth. Even those soldiers that would have managed to stay clear of his suggestions would have probably turned to him with the pale tree being out of action.

We lost most of our forces, who happened to be dead or stranded in heavy enemy territory. Our best team is MIA in the middle of it, and time is against us. We can’t really make good spur of the moment decisions with that kind of pressure!

Plus, in that kind of situation, it’s hard not to take every potential weapon against the enemy you have.

Furthermore, you have to show that some sylvari can be trusted, else you’re sparking an unnecessary civil war in a time of desperation.

Sylvari are creepy. Perhaps i missed something but here are some points:

• The pale tree didnt tell anyone about the relationship to mordremoth, making the failed pact attack possible and resulted in thousands of deaths by sleeper cells
• Within a few years, the sylvari developed from a non existent race to one of the higher races and almost rivals them in power and knowledge. In just one more lifetime, they could overpower all of them. By destroying the pact forces, this point of time is even closer now (sylvari can rebuild they forces faster than any other race)
• The pale tree, a champion of a elder dragon, expands her influence sphere by cleaning orr with her magic sword
• The pale tree, with her power of fortunetelling was not able to help in different tyria wide crises
• The hiveminded structure and the race memory
• Sylvari who wanted to be free of the pale tree are marked as traitors and hunted by all other sylvari
• By controlling Trahearne at the end, mordremoth could have misleaded the pact and feign death. All it would have lost is a major part of its magic. It could just wait for one other dragon to die and absorb the lost magic and be back in the game

I know, this wont happen. Espescially after we killed mordremoth with a “dude, mordremoth is the mind dragon, so we need to kill its mind”- stoner moment, and the power of friendship will kill the rest style of writing. But a sylvari genocide should have crossed some asura, charr and human minds as long as this race isnt too powerful to overcome. Or a ban from lions arch, other major cities, every security force, every leading science project, detaining the pale tree for treason, having a commission to analyze sylvari activities in the past, scanning for inactive sleepers in all positions,…

Edit: one more point:

• Wyld hunts are just clever disguised orders, which are so strong, the sylvari will die to fullfill them.

Margorion.4962:

• Sylvari who wanted to be free of the pale tree are marked as traitors and hunted by all other sylvari

This is simply not true, see the Soundless.

The Nightmare Court doesn’t want to be free from the Pale Tree, they want to convert the Pale Tree. Or rather, they want the Pale Tree and the Sylvari race to be what they would’ve been (or what the Nightmare Court think they would’ve been) without the influence of Ventari and Ronan. The way they go about this is through torture, murder and the general spread of misery to taint the Dream. And you think it’s wrong to hunt these sylvari?

Margorion.4962:

Wyld hunts are just clever disguised orders, which are so strong, the sylvari will die to fullfill them.

There are sylvari that choose to ignore them, as the above mentioned Soundless illustrates.

Diovid.9506:

[…]
This is simply not true, see the Soundless.

The Nightmare Court doesn’t want to be free from the Pale Tree, they want to convert the Pale Tree. Or rather, they want the Pale Tree and the Sylvari race to be what they would’ve been (or what the Nightmare Court think they would’ve been) without the influence of Ventari and Ronan. The way they go about this is through torture, murder and the general spread of misery to taint the Dream. And you think it’s wrong to hunt these sylvari?
[…]

You have a good point here. Its been a while since i heard about the soundless, so I have forgotten about them.
But according to the wiki, the soundless are not truly independent. They are not hunted, but the pale tree can still reach them if she wants to. Also the wiki says, that this sylvari leaves the protection from the pale tree.
It will never mentioned this way in the game, but the soundless could just be some minor abortion. To unimportant for the pale tree to care about.

Regarding the nightmare people: Sure they do evil stuff. But they mistrust against the pale tree looks reasonable to me. And in living story season 2 (before the nightmare court) Faolin was the more often then not on the right side.

Diovid.9506:

[…]

Wyld hunts are just clever disguised orders, which are so strong, the sylvari will die to fullfill them.

There are sylvari that choose to ignore them, as the above mentioned Soundless illustrates.

Again it could be easier to repeat this order in the next sylvari and didnt bother with the abortion. The wyld hunt is more often than not a lifegoal for the sylvari and will drive them to suicide if thats it, what it takes to fullfill it.

As people have said, internment – let alone genocide – would not have been the best solution.

In the short term, you’re taking resources away from the fight against Mordremoth in an already desperate situation and putting them towards imprisoning or, to go the whole hog on your suggestion, executing a portion of your own forces. Best case possible scenario, they sit quietly and you’ve lost those forces plus whatever you assign to guard them. Worst case scenario, you push them to Mordremoth and you get exactly what you were trying to prevent. Somewhere in between is the scenario where they all go Nightmare Court.

In the long term, such behaviour against the sylvari is going to have long-term ramifications – you would basically be kissing the alliance between the Pact and the sylvari goodbye. Even the Pale Tree probably wouldn’t be able to bring them back on board after that sort of mistreatment. Once the word got out, there’s a good chance that the sylvari would close their borders Dominion of Winds-style, or, again, go fully Nightmare Court and actively declare war on their neighbours in revenge. Either way, the Pact has lost what, after the death of Mordremoth, will probably become once more their most incorruptible source of soldiers.

The actions that you’re talking about was probably the least bad option. Splitting sylvari off into autonomous sylvari-only units like the Pale Reavers that aren’t part of your main strategy means that:

1) They’re still fighting for you as long as they’re able to continue resisting Mordremoth, even if they’re not part of your battle plans.

2) If they succumb, they’re not in a position to fifth-column your other units.

3) Worst-case scenario, an entire unit goes at once… and then it’s just another bunch of Mordrem wandering the jungle. It’s not like there was a shortage.

Margorion.4962:

Sylvari are creepy. Perhaps i missed something but here are some points:

Edit: one more point:

• Wyld hunts are just clever disguised orders, which are so strong, the sylvari will die to fullfill them.

You realize that the majority of any self-respecting soldier in the field will sacrifice their lives to accomplish an important mission, if they have to, right? It’s something that comes with the uniform. It doesn’t even take mind control, just merely knowing the stakes and choosing to put ones duty first.

draxynnic.3719:

As people have said, internment – let alone genocide – would not have been the best solution.

In the short term, you’re taking resources away from the fight against Mordremoth in an already desperate situation and putting them towards imprisoning or, to go the whole hog on your suggestion, executing a portion of your own forces. Best case possible scenario, they sit quietly and you’ve lost those forces plus whatever you assign to guard them. Worst case scenario, you push them to Mordremoth and you get exactly what you were trying to prevent. Somewhere in between is the scenario where they all go Nightmare Court.

In the long term, such behaviour against the sylvari is going to have long-term ramifications – you would basically be kissing the alliance between the Pact and the sylvari goodbye. Even the Pale Tree probably wouldn’t be able to bring them back on board after that sort of mistreatment. Once the word got out, there’s a good chance that the sylvari would close their borders Dominion of Winds-style, or, again, go fully Nightmare Court and actively declare war on their neighbours in revenge. Either way, the Pact has lost what, after the death of Mordremoth, will probably become once more their most incorruptible source of soldiers.

The actions that you’re talking about was probably the least bad option. Splitting sylvari off into autonomous sylvari-only units like the Pale Reavers that aren’t part of your main strategy means that:

1) They’re still fighting for you as long as they’re able to continue resisting Mordremoth, even if they’re not part of your battle plans.

2) If they succumb, they’re not in a position to fifth-column your other units.

3) Worst-case scenario, an entire unit goes at once… and then it’s just another bunch of Mordrem wandering the jungle. It’s not like there was a shortage.

Even worse, isolating or attacking the Sylvari as a whole would immediately start a war that Tyria could ill afford. They’d dig in and fight for every inch of ground the other races push them off of. In a choice between genocide and imprisonment at the hands of allies that just betrayed them, the Sylvari would /fight/. Especially since the future of their people would officially be on the line. If anything, attempting to control or kill the Sylvari people would galvanize the Dreamers, Soundless and Nightmare Court into a single cohesive whole, with a big slant towards that last group since now they’d be backed into a corner and standing alone.

I will admit though, that would be one hell of a storyline. Just imagine a chapter where Faolin wasn’t killed off, and instead she and her Court are welcomed by Caithe and the others as badly needed reinforcements. Especially after betrayals and battles that would feed a sea of sorrow and rage into the dream, with a still weakened Pale Tree powerless to stop it.

Highlord.7158:

[…]

You realize that the majority of any self-respecting soldier in the field will sacrifice their lives to accomplish an important mission, if they have to, right? It’s something that comes with the uniform. It doesn’t even take mind control, just merely knowing the stakes and choosing to put ones duty first.

You didnt get the point. A soldier should know what he is doing. But even before being born, some sylvari get this wyld hunt. Here a quote from the wiki:

Simply put, it is a calling given by the Dream itself. It sings deep in your soul and cannot be ignored.

The wyld hunt can look like a soldiers duty. Like defend your homeland from XY, but not all of them (white stag).
Eitherway, the sylvari are not free to choose. Yes some have the strength to resist (I called them abortions earlier). But for most, this order dictates they life. A soldier can theoretically stop being a soldier and start farming. A sylvari can not.

Highlord.7158:

[…]

Even worse, isolating or attacking the Sylvari as a whole would immediately start a war that Tyria could ill afford. They’d dig in and fight for every inch of ground the other races push them off of. In a choice between genocide and imprisonment at the hands of allies that just betrayed them, the Sylvari would /fight/. Especially since the future of their people would officially be on the line. If anything, attempting to control or kill the Sylvari people would galvanize the Dreamers, Soundless and Nightmare Court into a single cohesive whole, with a big slant towards that last group since now they’d be backed into a corner and standing alone.[…]

But on the other hand, this could be the last time the other races could win against them. To make one more enemy, when the dragons are out there, is of course not optimal. But what if the sylvari where the enemy all along? What if they where all waiting?
In some way this was the case.
And every second you wait this enemy gets stronger. Breading faster fighters then any other race. Every new generation deadlier then the last. In a case that the sylvari would fight for a dragon, the best time to fight them was yesterday.
To make it easier, try to picture them not as flower people. But as uruk-hai from Lord of the rings. Elite soldiers, breed to perfection as killing machines.

Highlord.7158:

[…]I will admit though, that would be one hell of a storyline. Just imagine a chapter where Faolin wasn’t killed off, and instead she and her Court are welcomed by Caithe and the others as badly needed reinforcements. Especially after betrayals and battles that would feed a sea of sorrow and rage into the dream, with a still weakened Pale Tree powerless to stop it.

This would be great!
Having a personal sylvari storyline where you need to flee from a major city, because the local government ordered every sylvari to be deported. Then playing as a rebel for most of the living story and figuring out at the end that the lies about sylvari being mordremoth minions where in the fact the truth.

Highlord: That’s pretty much the direction my thoughts were heading as well – however, I was assuming that word wouldn’t necessarily get out until after the Mordremoth campaign had concluded (after all, the Pact Commander probably wouldn’t have the authority to declare war on the Grove, so the OP’s proposed genocide would only be involving Pact troops in the jungle). So the Grove declaring war on the rest of Tyria would be one of the long-term concerns.

On the other hand, where sylvari are involved you can never quite keep everything hush-hush: the proposed sylvari genocide will go into the Dream, and will at the very least result in a strengthening of the Nightmare, and may result in new sylvari being born already knowing (consciously or subconsciously) about the genocide and viewing the other Pact races as enemies to be fought.

Another consideration is on Pact morale. We see the Pact soldiers who are unhappy about still having sylvari around after the betrayal… however, it’s likely that there are also Pact soldiers who would be equally unhappy about committing genocide, however justified the threat of sylvari turning might be.

Either way, the proposed sylvari genocide would be a short-sighted move which could well be causing more harm than good even in the short term, let alone the long term.

We will make a wall to border Grove and sylvari will pay for it /s

I wouldn’t expect an indicative action from other races regarding the percieved sylvari problem. It is true that sylvari can increase their numbers much faster than other races, but they do so via Pale Tree. It would be a simple matter for someone in the higher ups to hire a group of bomber/assassins/“renegades” to finish off the already weakened Pale Tree. With Pale Tree dead, there would be no new sylvari and they would fall into chaos – Nightmare Court could make their move towards “securing” the future of rest of the sylvari in their vision and create a civil war. From then on, its much easier to wipe out any remaining sylvari, officials can just say that Nightmare Court had taken over completely and they were eliminated, and with noone to say otherwise they would actually be seen as heroes.

TL;DR – If anyone decided to wipe the sylvari out, all they have to do is press 1 targeting Pale Tree.

Pregnantman.8259:

We will make a wall to border Grove and sylvari will pay for it /s

I wouldn’t expect an indicative action from other races regarding the percieved sylvari problem. It is true that sylvari can increase their numbers much faster than other races, but they do so via Pale Tree. It would be a simple matter for someone in the higher ups to hire a group of bomber/assassins/“renegades” to finish off the already weakened Pale Tree. With Pale Tree dead, there would be no new sylvari and they would fall into chaos – Nightmare Court could make their move towards “securing” the future of rest of the sylvari in their vision and create a civil war. From then on, its much easier to wipe out any remaining sylvari, officials can just say that Nightmare Court had taken over completely and they were eliminated, and with noone to say otherwise they would actually be seen as heroes.

TL;DR – If anyone decided to wipe the sylvari out, all they have to do is press 1 targeting Pale Tree.

And now you’d have all those countless Sylvari backed into a corner, betrayed by their allies, and now with the dying screams of their mother echoing in their minds.

Congratulations, you just started a genocidal war that will see massive swathes of Tyria rendered uninhabitable. Because remember Malyck? There’s other pale trees.

I’d rather not have Guild Wars be yet another game infected by the WH40**** blight.

Pregnantman.8259:

TL;DR – If anyone decided to wipe the sylvari out, all they have to do is press 1 targeting Pale Tree.

Not so easy. I know it’s often forgotten, but when we’re talking about the Pale Tree, we aren’t talking about the frail avatar in the chamber. We’re talking about a tree the size of a mountain, that took a mauling from a dragon and a small army of plant monsters attacking her roots and is now on her way to recovery. An assassin would be less than useless, and a single bomb would only tickle her. I suppose poison might be an option, but thinking of just how much of it it’d take to bring down an organism that size… killing the Pale Tree probably would require either an army that’d need to fight through a host of very determined defenders, or a magical nuke of some kind.

Margorion.4962:

Sylvari are creepy. Perhaps i missed something but here are some points:

• The pale tree didnt tell anyone about the relationship to mordremoth, making the failed pact attack possible and resulted in thousands of deaths by sleeper cells

While I have many problems with the Pale Tree, I’m going to have to speak out in her defense on this one.

It was at her suggestion that everyone was called together for a big meeting, held in the Pale Tree so her avatar could attend. To me, that suggests that she had something she felt she needed to say personally, something of shattering import. In short, I think she planned to tell everyone the truth about the sylvari.

Sadly, she didn’t get to. She was badly injured shortly after the meeting began, and was never fully lucid after it. It’s quite possible that she expected Caithe to state the important facts, or she may not have remembered that she was interrupted before she could tell everyone. I really think we have to give the Pale Tree the benefit of the doubt this time.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

killing the Pale Tree probably would require either an army that’d need to fight through a host of very determined defenders, or a magical nuke of some kind.

One only needs to invent a weapon that a small group can carry unnoticed. We have fought with a lot of Mordrem and we have the best and most pragmatic minds (Arcane Council) right next to largest collection of knowledge about dragons and their minions (Rata Novus) and it is only a matter of time before they get their hands on that information. You have to realize we killed the mind of the Elder Dragon of Mind without preparation or anything. Nothing would be surprising any more.

Pregnantman.8259:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

killing the Pale Tree probably would require either an army that’d need to fight through a host of very determined defenders, or a magical nuke of some kind.

One only needs to invent a weapon that a small group can carry unnoticed. We have fought with a lot of Mordrem and we have the best and most pragmatic minds (Arcane Council) right next to largest collection of knowledge about dragons and their minions (Rata Novus) and it is only a matter of time before they get their hands on that information. You have to realize we killed the mind of the Elder Dragon of Mind without preparation or anything. Nothing would be surprising any more.

Who would go on the mission? And what to do with any sylvari PC if something like that happened (regardless of whether the mission succeeded)?

Palador.2170:

[…]

While I have many problems with the Pale Tree, I’m going to have to speak out in her defense on this one.

It was at her suggestion that everyone was called together for a big meeting, held in the Pale Tree so her avatar could attend. To me, that suggests that she had something she felt she needed to say personally, something of shattering import. In short, I think she planned to tell everyone the truth about the sylvari.

Sadly, she didn’t get to. She was badly injured shortly after the meeting began, and was never fully lucid after it. It’s quite possible that she expected Caithe to state the important facts, or she may not have remembered that she was interrupted before she could tell everyone. I really think we have to give the Pale Tree the benefit of the doubt this time.

In the best case, she risked the lifes of all other sentiment beings on the slight chance of being outcast.
Remenber this is not a what if case, the sylvari are dragon minions and just the writing from anet defeated the dragon after the air fleet was annihilated.

Even if she changed her mind, it was too late. Now its pointless and thousands of life are lost, even among her own minions. Also the situation now should be worse for sylvari. If she told them about they heritage, the other races could learn from them and the pale tree could have a reputation like glint.
Now everyone knows the pale tree/hivemind will risk tyrias downfall, if this would save her race from having a bad reputation.

anninke.7469:

[…]
Who would go on the mission? And what to do with any sylvari PC if something like that happened (regardless of whether the mission succeeded)?

Anyone who lost a life to a sylvari or the actions of the pale tree could have the right motivation for an assassaniation. Or just one of the many evil groups (nightmare, bandits, inquest,…). Finding a culprit wouldnt be a problem

For the storyline:
It wouldnt be a problem for the story to have independent sylvari. The pale tree’s role and actions could be explained through some kind of memory seeds, which would redeem or condemn her actions. After her death the sylvari would be free from her influence and could hunt the murderers of they beloved mother.

Pregnantman.8259:

[…]
You have to realize we killed the mind of the Elder Dragon of Mind without preparation or anything. Nothing would be surprising any more.

Thats the sad thing. So much potential for a intersting plots (i dont even mean my own i,diotic outpourings) and anet will just invent some lazy deus ex plot device and ignore everything else.

Without reading the topic…

In the Pact Encampment, on the first day or so after the crash, they got a device that could detect mordrem influence over a Sylvari, and used this to test Sylvari pact members, rooting out the loyal Sylvari from the corrupted.

Margorion.4962:

Anyone who lost a life to a sylvari or the actions of the pale tree could have the right motivation for an assassaniation. Or just one of the many evil groups (nightmare, bandits, inquest,…). Finding a culprit wouldnt be a problem

For the storyline:
It wouldnt be a problem for the story to have independent sylvari. The pale tree’s role and actions could be explained through some kind of memory seeds, which would redeem or condemn her actions. After her death the sylvari would be free from her influence and could hunt the murderers of they beloved mother.

You know, it might actually be a very interesting plot.
I originally thought something along the lines “everyone hates Sylvari now, so the assasination is kind of looked upon with understanding by all other races and maybe even officially supported” and that would probably be a problem for a Sylvari PC (considering the generic-pink-nazgul-to-NPCs rule wouldn’t apply), because it should set them on a lonely-avenger-against-all path. Not that it doesn’t sound interesting, but it’s a bit unreal to apply.

Margorion.4962:

In the best case, she risked the lifes of all other sentiment beings on the slight chance of being outcast.
Remenber this is not a what if case, the sylvari are dragon minions and just the writing from anet defeated the dragon after the air fleet was annihilated.

Even if she changed her mind, it was too late. Now its pointless and thousands of life are lost, even among her own minions. Also the situation now should be worse for sylvari. If she told them about they heritage, the other races could learn from them and the pale tree could have a reputation like glint.
Now everyone knows the pale tree/hivemind will risk tyrias downfall, if this would save her race from having a bad reputation.

Glint said nothing about her heritage until hours before she expected to die – and even then she had problems with would-be dragonslayers, and even the suggestion that Glint was a champion from an unreliable source was enough to send Destiny’s Edge gunning for her until she talked them down.

It’s the rare being that’s willing to sacrifice the welfare of themselves and their family for the sake of “all sapient beings”. It also needs to be remembered that none of the planning of those who had knowledge of the dragons accounted for Mordremoth waking up so early – Tarir, for instance, seems to have been intended to be a safe place that would serve its purpose and be abandoned before Mordremoth awoke, rather than being already surrounded by Mordrem when the Exalted awoke. The usual cadence of the dragons awakening is about fifty years, so it’s likely that the Pale Tree didn’t expect Mordremoth to awake for another forty years or so – giving her the opportunity to get people used to sylvari being allies, and then dropping the bombshell when the sylvari were well established so people could prepare for what might happen against Mordremoth without being caught by surprise… possibly simply by making sure all the sylvari are elsewhere when it happened.

If the information had gotten out during the period where Wynne died, then…

The sylvari were already having problems with asura experimenting on them, and at that point it wasn’t just the Inquest. Best case scenario, revealing that at that time would have given the asura more incentive to experiment on the sylvari, and it probably wouldn’t have been limited to the Inquest. This would have strengthened the Nightmare, and possibly lead to a series of retaliations and counter-retaliations that eventually resulted in a state of war between the sylvari and asura – which would not be good for anybody.

Worst-case scenario, somebody with the power to do so gets it in their head, like some in this thread, that the sylvari need to be exterminated for everyone’s benefit. However, what would have happened in 1325 if the sylvari had been exterminated around 1305? Trahearne is respected by the orders because he did something important for each of them – I don’t recall what he did exactly for the Vigil and Priory, but it’s entirely possible that the Vigil would not have been founded and the Order of Whispers would have fallen apart if not for Trahearne. Even if those orders had survived, the Pale Tree and sylvari were instrumental in forming the Pact and, ultimately, defeating Zhaitan. Without the sylvari, it’s entirely possible that Zhaitan would have succeeded in taking Lion’s Arch and expanding into Kryta… or it might have gone for Rata Sum instead, or possibly both in quick succession, leaving the norn and charr standing alone.

And it’s entirely possible that the Pact Tree foresaw (or was informed by Glint) of the consequences of speaking or not speaking, and decided that not speaking for the time being was the better course for all sapient beings. And then Scarlet awoke Mordremoth – which, as noted above, it seems that nobody foresaw. She’s a bit like Tyria’s equivalent of the Mule in the Foundation series.

Now, one flaw in this argument is that the Pale Tree should probably have taken the opportunity to tell the Pact Commander ASAP once Mordremoth was active (she even sends her entourage away the first time we talk to her), so the Pact Commander could make arrangements. Certainly, the Pale Tree probably expected that the use of the memory seeds would result in the Pact Commander finding out. However, in this case I’ll take my turn to play the “ArenaNet writing” card – they decided it was more dramatic for the reveal to happen just when it was a little too late.

After all, it’s not like the ArenaNet writers showed an aversion to having the good guys carry the idiot ball in Season 1…

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Pregnantman.8259:

TL;DR – If anyone decided to wipe the sylvari out, all they have to do is press 1 targeting Pale Tree.

Not so easy. I know it’s often forgotten, but when we’re talking about the Pale Tree, we aren’t talking about the frail avatar in the chamber. We’re talking about a tree the size of a mountain, that took a mauling from a dragon and a small army of plant monsters attacking her roots and is now on her way to recovery. An assassin would be less than useless, and a single bomb would only tickle her. I suppose poison might be an option, but thinking of just how much of it it’d take to bring down an organism that size… killing the Pale Tree probably would require either an army that’d need to fight through a host of very determined defenders, or a magical nuke of some kind.

Say… a searing cauldron?

Margorion.4962:

• The pale tree didnt tell anyone about the relationship to mordremoth, making the failed pact attack possible and resulted in thousands of deaths by sleeper cells

Keep in mind that while the races were arguing whether or not Mordremoth is worth the effort to fight, and had to work with sylvari, that she was attacked and forced unconscious. The fault doesn’t lie on the Pale Tree here. Imagine what would happen if during – or before – that meeting she revealed that sylvari are dragon minions? None would trust them enough to unite with the Pact to fight Mordremoth, and many would see Trahearne taken down causing the Pact to splinter in at least two – not too dissimilar than what Anet was trying to show happening in HoT but horrendously failed to do – but all this before they could even begin to prepare against Mordremoth. The races would have split between those thinking sylvari should be wiped out now and those not, that no one would think Mordremoth to be a threat.

At least when the Pact Fleet was taken out, everyone knew that Mordremoth proved to be the greater threat than the sylvari on their front door because they knew that not all sylvari turned – whether they wanted to admit it or not.

It’s also fully possible that the Pale Tree intended to share that information, but going unconscious and barely waking before the assault prevented such. If any fault on this lies on someone, it’s Caithe – but as shown in A Shadow’s Deeds, her mind was a wreck as Mordremoth was assaulting it (despite the fact that all her actions were actually commonplace for her…).

Margorion.4962:

• The pale tree, a champion of a elder dragon, expands her influence sphere by cleaning orr with her magic sword

We actually do not know the details of the ritual Trahearne used. While Caladbolg was a catalyst used, nothing really says it was the magic in the sword or from the Pale Tree used to cleanse Orr.

Nor is there any indication that the Pale Tree has influence in Orr since.

Margorion.4962:

But a sylvari genocide should have crossed some asura, charr and human minds as long as this race isnt too powerful to overcome. Or a ban from lions arch, other major cities, every security force, every leading science project, detaining the pale tree for treason, having a commission to analyze sylvari activities in the past, scanning for inactive sleepers in all positions,…

ArenaNet has tried to portray that it has crossed some minds – particularly charr – especially in Torn from the Sky. If you’re a sylvari and aid the sylari, the norn and charr and some generic soldiers get so fed up with “traitorous sylvari” that they leave.

And the HoT trailer showed a downright hunt against sylvari (particularly Canach) which people think is actually a hint to S3 still. Though given the route of Episode 1… I’m sadly doubting that they can fulfill that storyline hook either.

Margorion.4962:

• Wyld hunts are just clever disguised orders, which are so strong, the sylvari will die to fullfill them.

They’re not really disguised, they are orders outright. But not by the Pale Tree – they’re given by the Dream, uncontrolled by the Pale Tree, Mordremoth, etc. And some sylvari can, and will, ignore them.

Wyld Hunts also come in different levels of strength – they aren’t all so compelling that the individual must fulfill it no matter the cost. Take Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr – he actively skirted around his Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr for nearly 20 years, avoiding the deadliest situations whenever possible, before he made a truly active attempt at it with the Pact.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If any fault on this lies on someone, it’s Caithe – but as shown in A Shadow’s Deeds, her mind was a wreck as Mordremoth was assaulting it (despite the fact that all her actions were actually commonplace for her…).

Actually, it seems entirely reasonable that Caithe would behave especially in-character under those conditions.

She’s probably spent most of her life (from Wynne’s death to the events of Edge of Destiny) relying only on herself and trusting only herself, the Pale Tree, and possibly Trahearne. To make matters worse, through much of that time the one person she was accustomed to trusting with everything was the one person she knew she couldn’t trust, being Faolain. So she’s had a lot of experience, not just in being distrustful in general, but in holding things back from the person her heart tells her she should trust in particular.

It’s likely that the effect of her mental pressure was not to push her towards acting out of character, but instead robbed her of the ability to rationally think things through and realise she should act out of character. Instead, she reverted to what she was comfortable with: keeping secrets from everyone, including those who might otherwise be her closest confidantes.

One could make a comparison to a typical introvert: able to make the conscious decision to be social, but their natural inclination is to be solitary, and the more tired they are, the harder it is to break that inclination. Caithe is not only an introvert, but she’s an introvert whose natural inclination is to keep secrets: her exhaustion from fighting off Mordremoth’s influence meant that she didn’t have the ability to think things through and realise she should have confided in her companions.

draxynnic.3719:

[…]
Glint said nothing about her heritage until hours before she expected to die – and even then she had problems with would-be dragonslayers, and even the suggestion that Glint was a champion from an unreliable source was enough to send Destiny’s Edge gunning for her until she talked them down.[…]

My comparison between glint and the pale falls a bit short.
Still the sacrifice of the sylvari people wouldnt be so selfless. This secret could have cost the victory of the pact, which is the only known force that could battle the dragons. When they lose, everyone else on tyria will lose and the pale tree would be the first to suffer for her treason.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

[…]Imagine what would happen if during – or before – that meeting she revealed that sylvari are dragon minions? None would trust them enough to unite with the Pact to fight Mordremoth, and many would see Trahearne taken down causing the Pact to splinter in at least two – not too dissimilar than what Anet was trying to show happening in HoT but horrendously failed to do – but all this before they could even begin to prepare against Mordremoth. The races would have split between those thinking sylvari should be wiped out now and those not, that no one would think Mordremoth to be a threat.[…]

I agree that a sylvari genocide just before HoT wouldnt be optimal. I just mentioned that it should have crossed some minds.
The lesser extreme forms of suppression on the other hand (like excluding sylvari from the pact fleet) would have helped a lot. Having hundreds of Mordremoth’s minions in your back is the worst outcome. If the price would be some p’issed of sylvari, well they should be happy for not being dead I guess.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

[…]At least when the Pact Fleet was taken out, everyone knew that Mordremoth proved to be the greater threat than the sylvari on their front door because they knew that not all sylvari turned – whether they wanted to admit it or not.[…]

The sylvari are mordremoth at the frontdoor. Yes some had the strength to resist. But a containment of all sylvari across Tyria would have saved many lives, even themselfs.

draxynnic already mentioned the possibility that the pale tree wanted to tell the other races about her heritage. But after ~20 years of doing nothing,… well she had quite enough opportunities for that.

draxynnic.3719:

[…]If the information had gotten out during the period where Wynne died, then… […]

At this point of time the sylvari where not able to wage war against the asura.
Even as more than able fighting machines (Caithe, Faolin) there didnt have the numbers to resist against the highly advanced asura.
A few skirmishes or a guerilla style warfare would be the best that they could achieve and this would end when the asura found the pale tree.

But this would be just in the case that they would be a war. I doubt it.
Assuming the pale tree knows state of tyria (other higher races are battling the dragons, no dragon really active) during the early years,
Her powers of fortunetelling, cleansing of corrupt areas, knowledge of the dragons would be of great benefit for all beings.
Yes I agree that some of her children would suffer under the other races and that they would be outcast for a long time.
But when mordremoth would be defeated the pale tree’s loyality couldnt be questioned.
Assuming draxynnic’s numbers are right, this phase of suppression wouldnt last longer than a hundred years.

For a race, which sole purpose of existence was to wage war against everything else this is a good outcome.

draxynnic.3719:

[…]However, what would have happened in 1325 if the sylvari had been exterminated around 1305? […]

Many aspects on the story where arranged by the pale tree. Traeherne was also the major character of the campaign.
So I agree with you, without the sylvari the story campaign wouldnt happen.
Still I believe Zhaitan would have died someway or another.
With Lions Arch lost, the other races would sooner or later recognize the great threat and would unify they forces (even with just two orders).
The airship weapon should also be possible to construct without sylvari influence.
The important part would be if the deafet of zhaitan would happen before mordremoth would awake.
But how fast would the dragon raise, when scarlet wouldnt exist? 50 years in a case where scarlett didnt exist? Same as in the current scenario, with a scarlett replacement?
But this is also the point where speculations are build on speculations, which are build on speculations,… So I will leave this scenario here :)

@wyld hunt: Just because traeherne is clever enough not to rush and wait 20 years for a good opportunity doesnt mean he is kinda free from this order. Its just mean that he is intelligent enough to wait for a good opportunity and not blindly fail at the start. His helping Nature allows him also to gain trust from the other races.

@cleaning orr (this post is really getting long): Sure there is no indication that she replaces zhaitans corruption with her own.
But especially at this point, there should be someone to question her motives. Because between her freeing orr and her getting another foothold for her own ascension to an elder dragon, there isnt much a difference for an outsider…

@draxynnic: Mule from foundation? Perhaps i should read the trilogy again, i dont remember the character…its been a while :/

Maybe the Sylvari would have just retreated into the Grove after learning that they are a breed of Mordremoth? Or launched a full brunt assault against Rata Sum with the aid of other pale trees or other races who had to suffer from Asura hands? Their direct neighbors were not exactly friendly to them, I still don´t know why they are not at war right now. The council of the Asura has a seat for the Inquest, so they are obviously backing them up at least politically and have not accused them of Genocide.

Caithe is just a muppet in my opinion. The portrayal of her character has gone from little girl that is unable to stop her beloved from not only killing her own “sister” and friendly creatures and basically doing the job of killing her for her to a girl that talks about redeeming herself but stays cryptic. You can´t redeem yourself if you are not honest. The upright thing to do would have been to face Faolain and say her that she can only go to Wynne if she is willing to go through Caithe too. If there would have been a choice, I would have abandoned her long ago and given her a warning not to interfer in my matters again. Destinys Edge in general is a medley of very emotionally disappointing and untrustworthy people, and I would not want any of them in a higher commanding position as either leader of the races.
So if you are looking for a culprint of the Sylvari race, look at Caithe and her entourage. The pale tree made some very unfortunate decisions of course, but it is not her fault that her most evil child was attempting to disrupt the peaceful start of the Sylvari.

Margorion.4962:

The sylvari are mordremoth at the frontdoor. Yes some had the strength to resist. But a containment of all sylvari across Tyria would have saved many lives, even themselfs.

Not really. We don’t know how far “the call” went, first off, and second off we got the simple fact that trying to contain non-threats means diverting resources and manpower away from the main threat – not only the manpower and resources of the resisting sylvari, but of what and who is used to contain them.

Not to mention the stress it would induce – you’d create a perfect environment for the Nightmare to flow through, and the level of distrust could send sylvari to accepting the call out of spite or feelings of isolation.

Margorion.4962:

draxynnic already mentioned the possibility that the pale tree wanted to tell the other races about her heritage. But after ~20 years of doing nothing,… well she had quite enough opportunities for that.

In 20 years, there was no relevance in stating it, and it proved to be a bigger harm than help to do so. When it became relevant and a bigger help than harm, she couldn’t.

Margorion.4962:

But this would be just in the case that they would be a war. I doubt it.
Assuming the pale tree knows state of tyria (other higher races are battling the dragons, no dragon really active) during the early years,
Her powers of fortunetelling, cleansing of corrupt areas, knowledge of the dragons would be of great benefit for all beings.

But the other beings wouldn’t know what the Pale Tree is capable of. They would just see the sylvari as “another set of dragon minions to deal with that are much more crafty than the others”.

The asura and norn would be especially weary because they deal with dragon minions personally, and were forced from their home by dragon minions.

Margorion.4962:

But when mordremoth would be defeated the pale tree’s loyality couldnt be questioned.

If the Pale Tree even lived to see Mordremoth’s wakening, given that the asura and other races would no doubt fight through the mere dozens-to-hundreds rather than thousands of sylvari that were alive after the first four years of sylvari existing.

Margorion.4962:

For a race, which sole purpose of existence was to wage war against everything else this is a good outcome.

You’re speaking of mordrem here. Sylvari don’t have the ‘sole purpose of existence to wage war against everything else’. Their ‘sole purpose’ if anything is to fight the Elder Dragons – as dictated by the Pale Tree, who’s “sole purpose” was changed when she was cleansed (by whatever mysterious means did such).

Margorion.4962:

Still I believe Zhaitan would have died someway or another.
With Lions Arch lost, the other races would sooner or later recognize the great threat and would unify they forces (even with just two orders).

Doubtful. Keep in mind the lore around Zhaitan and the other dragons before GW2.

• Primordus forced the asura out.
• Jormag forced the norn out.
• Zhaitan wiped out two major ports as well as the Krytan navy in an attempt to wipe out LA.
• Kralkatorrik created the Dragonbrand across Ascalon.

The races already know the Elder Dragons are a threat – or rather, they know this on a national level. But all the Elder Dragons are “far flung” threats. So dealing with them comes second to their current problems (centaurs, ghosts, Flame Legion, etc.) with exception of Norn.

They already knew the “great threat” and they were not unifying.

The only reason they unified was not the assault on LA – which according to lore happened several times already – but because Trahearne and the Pact Commander united the Orders who were still squabbling over which way to do the job. And they only united because of Trahearne.

If Trahearne wasn’t there, LA would have fallen, and everyone else would go “kitten , ah well.” because that’s exactly what they did when Port Stalwart fell, when Port Noble fell, when the Krytan navy was wiped out, when the norn were forced south, when the asura were forced from the Depths, and when the Dragonbrand was formed.

Best case scenario, the Orders would have decided “enough is enough” and wage war on Orr directly, but without support from the races let alone unity between the Orders it would have been chaos; at best the Vigil leading a futile assault and eventually being wiped out.

Margorion.4962:

The airship weapon should also be possible to construct without sylvari influence.
The important part would be if the deafet of zhaitan would happen before mordremoth would awake.
But how fast would the dragon raise, when scarlet wouldnt exist? 50 years in a case where scarlett didnt exist? Same as in the current scenario, with a scarlett replacement?
But this is also the point where speculations are build on speculations, which are build on speculations,… So I will leave this scenario here

The airship wouldn’t exist because it required the cooperation between human, charr, and asura to build. But they wouldn’t be cooperating on enough of a level without the Pact, which wouldn’t exist without Trahearne – someone trusted by all three orders – to work behind, or the Pact Commanders to help reaffirm the Orders’ trust in the competance of the Pact leadership.

Scarlet wouldn’t exist, but there were many seeds Mordremoth could go after – Malyck’s tree would exist, unless the asura and such decided to do a crusade deep into the jungle though I doubt it. It would then mean it would be one of Malyck’s people to wake Mordremoth up – perhaps much later, though.

And when Mordremoth would wake up, without the Pact, regardless of whether they were effective against Zhaitan or not, the Orders would not have been organized enough (and would have had a lot more casualties) to mount an immediate assault against Mordremoth, meaning his invasion (stopped by the SCAR team) would have continued and we’d be seeing assaults all over Tyria by Mordremoth with no effective defense.

Margorion.4962:

@wyld hunt: Just because traeherne is clever enough not to rush and wait 20 years for a good opportunity doesnt mean he is kinda free from this order. Its just mean that he is intelligent enough to wait for a good opportunity and not blindly fail at the start. His helping Nature allows him also to gain trust from the other races.

That’s the thing, though. You were saying that the Wyld Hunt is so strong that they must fulfill it even if it means their death in trying.

Trahearne avoided doing the Wyld Hunt however, meaning that it was not strong enough to force him to attempt to fulfill it even if it meant his death. It wasn’t a matter of being intelligent enough – Trahearne is no more intelligent than your average sylvari by all indication, after all – he was afraid of dying for his Wyld Hunt as he outright states.

Torolan.5816:

Maybe the Sylvari would have just retreated into the Grove after learning that they are a breed of Mordremoth? Or launched a full brunt assault against Rata Sum with the aid of other pale trees or other races who had to suffer from Asura hands? Their direct neighbors were not exactly friendly to them, I still don´t know why they are not at war right now. The council of the Asura has a seat for the Inquest, so they are obviously backing them up at least politically and have not accused them of Genocide.

The other trees were unknown – even to the Pale Tree by all indication – until 1325, so there’d be no support. Retreating to the Grove just gives the other races a singular target to assault.

The asura haven’t committed genocide, or attempted such – not even the Inquest. And they kind of are at war with their neighboring hyleks. As for the Inquest being backed by the Arcane Council – as stated by the Head Councillor Flaxx, they support whichever krewe gives the most cost efficient advancement for the asura – in many cases this means the Inquest because they cut corners morally, but when it’s not the Inquest, Flaxx will happily toss them to the curb.

Margorion.4962:

-snip bit on Caithe-

You have an odd interpretation of Caithe.

She’s ignorant of Faolain’s actions until Faolain goes overboard with torture – not killing – Wynne; the event is one of your typical ‘eye-opening events’ for Caithe. Caithe didn’t “do the job for Faolain” at all, given that Faolain was not after killing Wynne – she was after finding out that ‘secret’.

And Caithe is never really about redeeming herself for Wynne’s death – she seems, the entire time, that it was a sad but unavoidable action and while she holds guilt for it doesn’t seek redemption for it. The only time we ever see her wanting redemption is for her actions in HoT, which she is honest about.

Telling Faolain to proverbially kitten off and not interfere with Caithe again is what Caithe does in Edge of Destiny and Twilight Arbor story, when she gets tired of being chased about by Faolain.

The only ones that are all that emotionally unstable in DE would be Eir – who is suicidal because she caused the death of her good friend, Snaff – and Caithe, but only post-HoT. They all had their problems – which for most were caused by Snaff’s death and the circumstances about that – which are solved with the dungeon story mode. After such (starting when they meet up to fight Zhaitan), all that emotional baggage is basically out the window. Unfortunately, ArenaNet decided to dump DE for the second set of emotional baggage that is the biconics so we don’t see that much.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe the Sylvari would have just retreated into the Grove after learning that they are a breed of Mordremoth? Or launched a full brunt assault against Rata Sum with the aid of other pale trees or other races who had to suffer from Asura hands? Their direct neighbors were not exactly friendly to them, I still don´t know why they are not at war right now. The council of the Asura has a seat for the Inquest, so they are obviously backing them up at least politically and have not accused them of Genocide.

The other trees were unknown – even to the Pale Tree by all indication – until 1325, so there’d be no support. Retreating to the Grove just gives the other races a singular target to assault.

The asura haven’t committed genocide, or attempted such – not even the Inquest. And they kind of are at war with their neighboring hyleks. As for the Inquest being backed by the Arcane Council – as stated by the Head Councillor Flaxx, they support whichever krewe gives the most cost efficient advancement for the asura – in many cases this means the Inquest because they cut corners morally, but when it’s not the Inquest, Flaxx will happily toss them to the curb.

Margorion.4962:

-snip bit on Caithe-

You have an odd interpretation of Caithe.

She’s ignorant of Faolain’s actions until Faolain goes overboard with torture – not killing – Wynne; the event is one of your typical ‘eye-opening events’ for Caithe. Caithe didn’t “do the job for Faolain” at all, given that Faolain was not after killing Wynne – she was after finding out that ‘secret’.

And Caithe is never really about redeeming herself for Wynne’s death – she seems, the entire time, that it was a sad but unavoidable action and while she holds guilt for it doesn’t seek redemption for it. The only time we ever see her wanting redemption is for her actions in HoT, which she is honest about.

Telling Faolain to proverbially kitten off and not interfere with Caithe again is what Caithe does in Edge of Destiny and Twilight Arbor story, when she gets tired of being chased about by Faolain.

The only ones that are all that emotionally unstable in DE would be Eir – who is suicidal because she caused the death of her good friend, Snaff – and Caithe, but only post-HoT. They all had their problems – which for most were caused by Snaff’s death and the circumstances about that – which are solved with the dungeon story mode. After such (starting when they meet up to fight Zhaitan), all that emotional baggage is basically out the window. Unfortunately, ArenaNet decided to dump DE for the second set of emotional baggage that is the biconics so we don’t see that much.

Malomedies was experimented on by Asura. He is a even Luminari and serves as Ambassador and guide, still he was experimented on by the Asura. How much intelligence does it take to understand when a plaint says to you:
“I am in pain, please stop!” ?
The living story clearly shows how a large number of Sylvari, and Sylvari only, were tortured by the Asura. Scientific curiosity was the reason for that, mixed with a healthy dose of cruelty. The asura are a bunch of people I would be really monitoring closely if I were a leader of any other race. They have good people too of course, but those seem usually not to rise very high in their government.

This even reinforces my opinion that she is a muppet.
Caithe is the only Sylvari that is amoral. Most are heroic and helpful like Trahaerne or Riannoc, Faolain is ruthless, but Caithe is the only firstborn Sylvari hat has no real opinion on her own and is bound to the other firstborn. She is not even torn to follow Faolain initially, and it took the death of Wynne to make her earnestly question Faolain. Although wiki states that all firstborn are wise, I cannot find any wisdom in Caithe. She is like Riannoc but without bravery and a heart.

Torolan.5816:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe the Sylvari would have just retreated into the Grove after learning that they are a breed of Mordremoth? Or launched a full brunt assault against Rata Sum with the aid of other pale trees or other races who had to suffer from Asura hands? Their direct neighbors were not exactly friendly to them, I still don´t know why they are not at war right now. The council of the Asura has a seat for the Inquest, so they are obviously backing them up at least politically and have not accused them of Genocide.

The other trees were unknown – even to the Pale Tree by all indication – until 1325, so there’d be no support. Retreating to the Grove just gives the other races a singular target to assault.

The asura haven’t committed genocide, or attempted such – not even the Inquest. And they kind of are at war with their neighboring hyleks. As for the Inquest being backed by the Arcane Council – as stated by the Head Councillor Flaxx, they support whichever krewe gives the most cost efficient advancement for the asura – in many cases this means the Inquest because they cut corners morally, but when it’s not the Inquest, Flaxx will happily toss them to the curb.

Margorion.4962:

-snip bit on Caithe-

You have an odd interpretation of Caithe.

She’s ignorant of Faolain’s actions until Faolain goes overboard with torture – not killing – Wynne; the event is one of your typical ‘eye-opening events’ for Caithe. Caithe didn’t “do the job for Faolain” at all, given that Faolain was not after killing Wynne – she was after finding out that ‘secret’.

And Caithe is never really about redeeming herself for Wynne’s death – she seems, the entire time, that it was a sad but unavoidable action and while she holds guilt for it doesn’t seek redemption for it. The only time we ever see her wanting redemption is for her actions in HoT, which she is honest about.

Telling Faolain to proverbially kitten off and not interfere with Caithe again is what Caithe does in Edge of Destiny and Twilight Arbor story, when she gets tired of being chased about by Faolain.

The only ones that are all that emotionally unstable in DE would be Eir – who is suicidal because she caused the death of her good friend, Snaff – and Caithe, but only post-HoT. They all had their problems – which for most were caused by Snaff’s death and the circumstances about that – which are solved with the dungeon story mode. After such (starting when they meet up to fight Zhaitan), all that emotional baggage is basically out the window. Unfortunately, ArenaNet decided to dump DE for the second set of emotional baggage that is the biconics so we don’t see that much.

Malomedies was experimented on by Asura. He is a even Luminari and serves as Ambassador and guide, still he was experimented on by the Asura. How much intelligence does it take to understand when a plaint says to you:
“I am in pain, please stop!” ?
The living story clearly shows how a large number of Sylvari, and Sylvari only, were tortured by the Asura. Scientific curiosity was the reason for that, mixed with a healthy dose of cruelty. The asura are a bunch of people I would be really monitoring closely if I were a leader of any other race. They have good people too of course, but those seem usually not to rise very high in their government.

This even reinforces my opinion that she is a muppet.
Caithe is the only Sylvari that is amoral. Most are heroic and helpful like Trahaerne or Riannoc, Faolain is ruthless, but Caithe is the only firstborn Sylvari hat has no real opinion on her own and is bound to the other firstborn. She is not even torn to follow Faolain initially, and it took the death of Wynne to make her earnestly question Faolain. Although wiki states that all firstborn are wise, I cannot find any wisdom in Caithe. She is like Riannoc but without bravery and a heart.

The race will get smarter as they grow. Caithe isn’t supposed to be the brightest. She is suppose to learn a lot to help her race. Moreover this racial memory is the reason why the Asura are not are not trying to provoke them.

Caithe, and many Syvlari know of Melomedies’ torture. Since Caderyn founded the Nightmare Court partly in response to this event, I am sure the Asura are just hedging their bets.

In fact the information may or may not already be common knowledge to all Sylvari. Perhaps used in ways to impart Ventari teachings. As they are all taught “Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow,” what better way than for Malomedies to explain his forgiveness.

Punishing Sylvari for the actions of the corrupted would tip the scale. Mostly likely sending several into Nightmare, as it helped to do with Caderyn. How many could resist the urge to punish all Asura for the torture of a Firstborn if such hypocrisy were to take place?

Rata Sum is already near Magumma. Do they now also need Caledon Forest to rise up against them?

Moreover, the greatest enemy of the Asura is Primordius. Sylvari have the greatest talent for cleansing/avoiding corruption. They at least need the race alive were they to attempt to reclaim their former home.

Margorion.4962:

My comparison between glint and the pale falls a bit short.
Still the sacrifice of the sylvari people wouldnt be so selfless. This secret could have cost the victory of the pact, which is the only known force that could battle the dragons. When they lose, everyone else on tyria will lose and the pale tree would be the first to suffer for her treason.

And revealing it could have cost the victory against Zhaitan, possibly even the defence of Lion’s Arch against Zhaitan.

The only time we could reasonably say, even with the benefit of hindsight, that the Pale Tree should have revealed that information is during Season 2… and it’s possible that she planned to.

At this point of time the sylvari where not able to wage war against the asura.
Even as more than able fighting machines (Caithe, Faolin) there didnt have the numbers to resist against the highly advanced asura.
A few skirmishes or a guerilla style warfare would be the best that they could achieve and this would end when the asura found the pale tree.

But this would be just in the case that they would be a war. I doubt it.
Assuming the pale tree knows state of tyria (other higher races are battling the dragons, no dragon really active) during the early years,
Her powers of fortunetelling, cleansing of corrupt areas, knowledge of the dragons would be of great benefit for all beings.
Yes I agree that some of her children would suffer under the other races and that they would be outcast for a long time.
But when mordremoth would be defeated the pale tree’s loyality couldnt be questioned.
Assuming draxynnic’s numbers are right, this phase of suppression wouldnt last longer than a hundred years.

For a race, which sole purpose of existence was to wage war against everything else this is a good outcome.

You’re assuming that the other races don’t just go “better to wipe them out and be sure”. Pretty much everybody’s policy with dragon minions at the time was to kill them if you could. Remember, in Edge of Destiny, Destiny’s Edge was willing to attempt to kill Glint on Faolain’s word – repeat, the word of Faolain, Arch-Duchess of the Nightmare Court – despite Glint being known as a friend to humankind. Now, they were willing to stop and hear Glint’s side of the story… but can we say that would have happened there?

Even your policy of containment would have likely built resentment, making the sylvari more vulnerable to the Nightmare Court and Mordremoth, and much less likely to join the other races in combat on other fronts, where they have more than pulled their weight due to their corruption immunity. More likely, in the case of the information being revealed immediately, it would have encouraged the asura to experiment more rather than recognise the sylvari as another sapient race with rights (Inquest excepted), which would likely have led to full-blown war between the asura and sylvari with nobody willing to take the side of the sylvari (historically, humans were the first positive first contact sylvari had, according to an interview that I haven’t been able to find for years, but if the first thing humans knew was that sylvari were dragon minions, that seems unlikely). Pretty much whatever the outcome of that war was – death of the Pale Tree, destruction of Rata Sum, or a protracted stalemate – you can kiss the combined effort against Zhaitan goodbye.

Particularly given the influence sylvari had in the intervening years. Without Caithe, there would have been no Destiny’s Edge. We’ve never had the full story of the founding of the Vigil, but Laranthir and other sylvari seem to have had a strong role in turning it from an idea in Almorra’s head to a multiracial organisation. Without Trahearne, the Order of Whispers might have self-destructed when Riel’s predecessor succumbed to dragon corruption. Without the Vigil or the Order of Whispers, the charr-human truce likely would never have happened.

In fact, let’s draw through the consequences in more detail. We’ve lost Caithe, therefor we’ve lost Destiny’s Edge… so where is Queen Jennah at the time of the Dragonrise? Either way, Ebonhawke is probably destroyed, meaning that there is no impetus for the charr to form a truce which has grown into a quasi-alliance. So what happens when Zhaitan attacks Lion’s Arch? The three races that take the dragons most seriously have been the sylvari, the humans, and the charr. Well, your policy would have already remove the sylvari from the equation. Without a truce being formed, the charr aren’t going to lift a claw to help Kryta if Lion’s Arch is destroyed, and even if they want to prevent Lion’s Arch being destroyed, they probably wouldn’t be able to get there in time or numbers to make a difference. The Arcane Council has an official policy of sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to the dragons, and the norn aren’t organised enough that we could expect them to muster anything significant.

Kryta, now, has a long-standing alliance of support with Lion’s Arch. Let’s take the best case scenario, and assume that the destruction of Lion’s Arch causes Caudecus to set aside his rivalry with Jennah on the basis that he won’t rule anything if the country is destroyed. In fact, let’s go even further and assume that the desperation of the situation allows Kryta to form alliances with everyone else who’s potentially in Zhaitan’s path: the skritt, hylek and quaggans living in Kryta, the Dominion of Winds, the centaurs (in exchange for settlement rights once it’s all over) and maybe even an outburst of sanity among the krait. Even that wouldn’t be enough. The end result of your policy, when you work through the ramifications, is that Zhaitan destroys Lion’s Arch and Kryta, thereby isolating the asura from the charr and norn, neither group of which have the power to defeat an Elder Dragon without the aid of another.

Basically, when you think through the ramifications, the end result of your policy is likely to be the total destruction of Tyria at the claws of the Elder Dragons, and Guild Wars 2 is set in Cantha or something when the dragons go looking for another meal elsewhere. Your policy would have lost the war for the sake of a battle that, as far as the Pale Tree knew up until the Breachmaker, wasn’t due for half a century.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Margorion.4962:

-snip bit on Caithe-

You have an odd interpretation of Caithe.

She’s ignorant of Faolain’s actions until Faolain goes overboard with torture – not killing – Wynne; the event is one of your typical ‘eye-opening events’ for Caithe. Caithe didn’t “do the job for Faolain” at all, given that Faolain was not after killing Wynne – she was after finding out that ‘secret’.

Indeed. In that moment, Caithe basically has four options: side with Faolain; do nothing (same result as previous); kill Wynne; or fight Faolain.

Our response would be obvious: fight Faolain. However, Caithe doesn’t have the plot armour that the PC does, so there’s no guarantee she’d win. Even if she would be able to beat Faolain in whatever passes for a fair fight when it’s a thief and mesmer fighting if Faolain stayed to fight, Faolain might be able to distract Caithe with an illusion and spirit Wynne off – in which case, Caithe has attacked her former lover and lost whatever influence she might have in the future without any gain.

As Konig noted, this was the moment where Caithe realised what Faolain was really like (Caithe didn’t know it was Faolain who started the fight with the centaurs). While she was apparently certain enough to euthanize Wynne, it’s likely that she still had doubts at the time: she seems to have held out hope that Faolain could be redeemed for some time afterwards, for instance. If she fought Faolain, she’d have essentially given up any chance of redeeming Faolain, something she doesn’t seem to have been ready to do at that time. Killing Wynne was essentially the option that gave her time to think: as far as Faolain knows the information is gone (unless she can extract it from the Pale Tree), but she still regards Caithe as a lover and ally. (Remember, also, that Caithe didn’t have time to think things through.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not really. We don’t know how far “the call” went, first off, and second off we got the simple fact that trying to contain non-threats means diverting resources and manpower away from the main threat – not only the manpower and resources of the resisting sylvari, but of what and who is used to contain them.

Not to mention the stress it would induce – you’d create a perfect environment for the Nightmare to flow through, and the level of distrust could send sylvari to accepting the call out of spite or feelings of isolation.[…]

why should it take so much recources away?
We have the portal technology. Just shove every sylvari through it to the tree and be done with it.
Most would understand, or just follow the order of they mother. The few who didnt obey wouldnt put much of a resistance.
I wouldnt even suggesting killing them. A simple forceful deportation (which other more cooperative sylvari could do) back to the tree would be enough.
Rampaging/nightmare sylvari would be killed of course. Still, I agree with you. More sylvari would follow the nightmare and would start isolating from other races.
I just dont see the big problem with this. Nightmare is a secondary threat to mordremoth, even for the sylvari. For the other races, well why should they care?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

[…]In 20 years, there was no relevance in stating it, and it proved to be a bigger harm than help to do so. When it became relevant and a bigger help than harm, she couldn’t.[…]

Why should the other races not know about her powers? She could just tell them, and could prove it with her actions (like cleansing the brand in ascalon).
The actions of the pale tree will prove her place amoung the other races. There wouldnt be a genocide, because there isnt a genocide in the current scenario.
And this is the worst case, besides total extermination.
In my suggestion, no other race would have been harmed by her actions, where in “reality” thousands have been killed. Hell she even would have saved many lives!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

[…]You’re speaking of mordrem here. Sylvari don’t have the ‘sole purpose of existence to wage war against everything else’. Their ‘sole purpose’ if anything is to fight the Elder Dragons –
as dictated by the Pale Tree, who’s “sole purpose” was changed when she was cleansed (by whatever mysterious means did such).[…]

I took some freedom here. But as a creation of mordremoth, it is not hard to guess what role the pale tree should have played before she was cleansed.
As for her own creation the sylvari. They apperance is similiar to the mordrem. and without further knowledge we can only guess what the differences are.
Still i agree, that the pale created the sylvari without this order.
But the sylvari could also follow the normal mordremoth blue print, just with minimal changes by the pale tree (instead of following the holy order of killing everything, follow this holy order from the talking horse).
As a slightly “manipulated” race my statement wouldnt be nullified. The intention behind the pale tree and her creations where to wage war or helping mordremoth to raise.

Traeherne was unique in his role to unite the races. But his role shouldnt be one, that no one in decades couldnt replicate.
After lions arch would be destroyed there should be enough time for someone (or many people, like a mixed race hero guild) to unite the other races.
Perhaps it would be too late for most of kryta, but i still think that zhaitan would have been defeated.
But again at this point we are far to deep in the speculations department. Mordremoth could raise on the day zhaitan would be defeated. Or 50 years later.

As for malycks tree, I try to avoid him. It just looks like anet dropped this whole story part. And if he reemerges, there is a TON of explanations to do.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

[…]That’s the thing, though. You were saying that the Wyld Hunt is so strong that they must fulfill it even if it means their death in trying.

Trahearne avoided doing the Wyld Hunt however, meaning that it was not strong enough to force him to attempt to fulfill it even if it meant his death. It wasn’t a matter of being intelligent enough –
Trahearne is no more intelligent than your average sylvari by all indication, after all – he was afraid of dying for his Wyld Hunt as he outright states.[…]

I wrote earlier in the thread that failing in following the wyld hunt, wouldnt contradict the purpose behind it.
But I dont think that this is the case for traeherne. Even if he postponed this increadible and for all intends, impossible task he fullfilled it in the end.
Just because he doubted his powers and courage, doesnt mean he was free of the wyld hunt in the end. Yes Traeherne could have failed while he was doing something else.
But it whould have failed anyway if he tried it earlier or in almost every other possible scenario.
I would even go further by saying his fear of failing his task underlines the strength of this absolute order.

draxynnic.3719:

[…]You’re assuming that the other races don’t just go “better to wipe them out and be sure”.[…]

If the pale tree would prove her worth before the other races, there wouldnt be a reason for a genocide. If you assume a genocide would happen nevertheless the usefulness of the pale tree and her minions, you must live with the expection of a genocide in the current scenario.

draxynnic.3719:

[…]Even your policy of containment would have likely built resentment,[…]

König also mentioned it. And i repeat: The sylvari would suffer a lot more from the internal struggle. Sure. But if they cant face the truth of they own being, there are lost either way.
Further Asura experimentations should also be expected in such a case. Still a war between the races wouldnt be possible because of the difference in military strength. Also you are forgetting that the pale tree, would more or less try to calm her minions down. Her guidance about the sylvari is pretty strong.

Your post goes into more details about the fight against zhaitan without the pale tree. Repeating myself, I dont think the death of the pale tree would happen.
But ok lets go with your scenario, without the aid of the pale tree:
Lions Arch would be lost, ok . The other lesser races are of no importance to the big picture. So most of kryta will be lost either way.
But i think you stopped to early.
This, after the Humans are basically in the same cirumstances as the GW1 ascalons,
is the point where I thing the leftover races would start to unify. Under different heroes and in a more damaged state of course.
But even if it took some more time and more losses, I think zhaitan would be defeated.

Of course, i doubt this scenario would have happened. I think the pale tree would have helped with her powers and knowledge. The cost would be some minor or greater form of surpression for some time.
A good price for such a great benefit it would deliever.

Margorion.4962:

[snip]…

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maguuma_Jungle

The jungle has Mordremoth, it has the Grove, and it has Rata Sum.

Given that the latter two border each other (one is in Caledon Forest the other floats above Metrica Province) do you really think the Asura want to anger the Sylvari? Especially given that Asuran provocation partially led to the Nightmare Court. And that the Wardens still have military outposts on the border from the Zhaitan days.

Maybe with enough resources and time they could strike at the Pale Tree. But definitely not with the Pact Fleet destroyed. Any Sylvari they portal to their death sends information to the Dream and puts the lives of civilian Asura at risk.

Margorion.4962:

Why should the other races not know about her powers? She could just tell them, and could prove it with her actions (like cleansing the brand in ascalon).
The actions of the pale tree will prove her place amoung the other races. There wouldnt be a genocide, because there isnt a genocide in the current scenario.
And this is the worst case, besides total extermination.
In my suggestion, no other race would have been harmed by her actions, where in “reality” thousands have been killed. Hell she even would have saved many lives!

The Pale Tree tries to explain how her powers make her useful. The other races hear “I’m a dragon champion with wide-ranging powers trying to persuade my enemies not to kill me before my dragon awakes, at which point I’ll turn those powers towards aiding my dragon!”

Remember, up until Glint tried to kill Kralkatorrik, the only experience that Tyrians had with dragon minions was that ultimately they always served their dragon.

In the canon timeline, the Pale Tree was able to prove herself by deeds, through her role and that of sylvari in defeating Zhaitan. Following your policy, all she would have is words, and as the old saying goes, actions speak louder. In the canon timeline, people learned about the sylvari-mordremoth connection after having had a couple of decades of getting to think of them as people… and even with that there are tensions. If the first thing that they knew about sylvari was that they were dragon minions? Extermination is a very real possibility.

As for your claim that other races would have benefited… well, I’ll get to that.

Traeherne was unique in his role to unite the races. But his role shouldnt be one, that no one in decades couldnt replicate.
After lions arch would be destroyed there should be enough time for someone (or many people, like a mixed race hero guild) to unite the other races.
Perhaps it would be too late for most of kryta, but i still think that zhaitan would have been defeated.
But again at this point we are far to deep in the speculations department. Mordremoth could raise on the day zhaitan would be defeated. Or 50 years later.

On what basis do you rest your confidence that the other races will somehow pull through with the sylvari confined to the Grove and Kryta out of the picture?

Of the five major races, the only ones with any military organisation worth speaking of are the charr, humans, and sylvari – the asura Peacemakers and norn Wolfbrothers are more along the lines of police forces. The only one that would be left of those is the charr – probably the strongest of them, but able to field an army capable of killing an Elder Dragon on their own? Not likely. Asura and norn make excellent auxiliaries, but they don’t have the discipline to form the core of an army.

Furthermore, you’re not considering how much more powerful Jormag is likely to be from those victories. He takes Lion’s Arch, he gorges on the ley line confluence there (meanwhile, the gate relay that links Rata Sum to the east is gone, although lorewise they can recalibrate gates to a new destination). With that extra magic and the corpses he collects from Lion’s Arch, I don’t think he’ll just devastate Kryta – he’ll be able to take the whole country. I don’t think Divinity’s Reach had any air defences in 1325 that could fend off a couple of dragon champions like Blightghast or Tequatl. Admittedly, Zhaitan seemed to be fairly conservative about sending them outside of Orr, but the precedent of Blightghast suggests he’d be willing to send at least one to Divinity’s Reach if conventional forces didn’t succeed in taking the city quickly… and in 1325, the western wall was still breached by the Great Collapse.

He now has the magic and corpses of Kryta – and, let’s not forget, the knowledge of those he’s claimed as minions. So he likely knows about the Maguuma Bloodstone, and we know from the Arah Seer path that the dragons and their minions can utilise the power in bloodstones if they physically access the bloodstone. So you can add all that power to Zhaitan’s tally. Odds are, once he’s taken Kryta and the magic nearby (including the Bloodstone), his next target will likely be Rata Sum…

…and if Zhaitan takes Rata Sum, keeping in mind that at this point that he’s probably at least twice as powerful as he ever was in the canon timeline, it’s pretty much game over. Best case scenario is that the more organised eastern races – dredge, charr, norn, ogres – recognise how kittened they are and ally and are able to stalemate the dragons. Without the asuran research, though, the chance of actually killing any of the dragons is pretty much minimal. And as Ogden says, time is not on your side when dealing with the Elder Dragons.

Even with your optimistic scenario, we’re talking about the destruction of Lion’s Arch and of most of Kryta. How is this better than the canon timeline? At least the downing of the Pact fleet mostly only hurt soldiers who’d volunteered for a dangerous duty, not ordinary citizens.

draxynnic.3719:

[…]Even your policy of containment would have likely built resentment,[…]

König also mentioned it. And i repeat: The sylvari would suffer a lot more from the internal struggle. Sure. But if they cant face the truth of they own being, there are lost either way.
Further Asura experimentations should also be expected in such a case. Still a war between the races wouldnt be possible because of the difference in military strength. Also you are forgetting that the pale tree, would more or less try to calm her minions down. Her guidance about the sylvari is pretty strong.

A war does not need to be equal, or even close to it, to be a war. Plenty of wars historically have happened despite a gross asymmetry in military strength… and they haven’t all been won by the stronger side either.

Further, as noted above, the asura have no military tradition to speak of. The Peacekeepers are pretty much just that – their purpose is to maintain the peace, they’re not an army. The rest of asura society, with the exception of the Inquest, are not organised above the krewe level. Sylvari are much better organised and formed an organised military early on (probably using human knowledge from the cemetary that the Pale Tree was planted in). So I don’t think it would be as onesided as you think.

Even if it was and the asura win a quick victory… Tyria still loses. The sylvari being contained or destroyed by the asura leads to the chain of events I have already described. It’s possible that a war with the sylvari would force the asura to form a more organised military force so they can hold better when Zhaitan comes for them… but they’ll still be facing a Zhaitan that’s gorged on the LA ley energy confluence and the Maguuma bloodstone, and any allies they may have will only be able to arrive by gate.

Regarding the “guidance of the Pale Tree” – it’s guidance, not mind control. A policy of containment and unbridled experimentation by the asura is not something that you can expect any sapient species to take lying down, however much their leader tries to keep things peaceful.

You were a terrible commander long before that.

You literally left the pact to prance around tyria collecting new best friends while they were doing the important work of culling the remaining risen in Orr, despite knowin good and well that there were MULTIPLE other dragons at least equally as dangerous, and that you only had a limited time to clean up your first mess before a new one decided to get all un-sleepy.

I mean what WERE you doing? Trying to check out this rad new vacation spot, fixing road signs, rigging elections, and going to the queen’s jamboree to gawk at clockwork ladies? It’s fortunate you completely accidentally stumbled on an agent of the next dragon while you were attending a fancy dress party as your soldiers continued in their life and death struggle against the millions of still active undead in Orr.

You’re basically the Forrest Gump of the Pact.

I always thought you weren’t there because Trahearne basically said offscreen, “Commander, you’ve done a lot of hard work, take a vacation for a while. All the hard work is out of the way, and I don’t think the small fry left would interest you much. I’ll call you the second anything big comes up.”

It’s also worth noting that while the Pact wasn’t formally involved in those affairs, the orders were. Southsun was a clear and present danger to the Pact’s interests (the Pact needs Lion’s Arch* – pretty much the only justification for Lion’s Arch being a port city these days is to ship stuff to Orr, although I guess the sea route to Rata Sum is now open) which I think the Priory at least was involved in from memory, while Vigil characters were ordered by Almorra into Flame and Frost. The various other events followed from there, but I think there was sufficient justification for the PC to be involved – and really, the Pact should have been more involved in those events than it was.

(But then, LS1 was basically marked by everyone except Scarlet carrying the Idiot Ball, so let’s leave that be and move on.)

RyuDragnier.9476:

I always thought you weren’t there because Trahearne basically said offscreen, “Commander, you’ve done a lot of hard work, take a vacation for a while. All the hard work is out of the way, and I don’t think the small fry left would interest you much. I’ll call you the second anything big comes up.”

As someone who didn’t play Living Story 1 because I was busy leveling instead at that time, I was under the impression that the screw-up with the commander’s characterization was from Living Season 1 and Personal Story essentially treating the Player Character as two separate characters. In the first, you’re treated as just an inhabitant of the (living) world, making fellow adventurer friends, exploring the world, and responding to each new crisis as it comes along, whether you’re a new level 2 character or level 80. In the latter, you’re a high-ranking commander of a military force.

Living Story 2 tried to merge the “Commander of the Pact” and “Adventurer in Tyria” into the single character – and it results in the awful runabout commander we get in LS2, Heart of Thorns, and ultimate Dereliction in LS3. (Of course, I think the Personal Story had the Commander hold onto the “Naive Newcomer” card for too long).

Yes, the main character is a godawful commander, given that he spends so much of the game just running around with the Biconics instead of actually leading the pact.

As I’d previously said, while the Pact wasn’t directly involved in any of LS1, the Orders were – which means that the PC has perfectly valid reasons to be involved. Basically, it boils down to “whichever order the PC is a member of thinks it’s more important that the PC is dealing with the current crisis rather than being mired in Orr, and Trahearne isn’t countermanding that.”

Some of the chapters also relate to Destiny’s Edge in one way or another, so it also makes sense that the PC would be involved on that basis (although LS1 there also had problems in that they were trying to make it simultaneously before and after Zhaitan’s death).

Of course, none of this is ever mentioned in LS1. However, to put it bluntly, LS1 was far from ArenaNet’s best storytelling. That being the case, I think it’s reasonable that rather than the PC being incompetent for their rank, there were perfectly justified reasons why the PC acted as they did, although those reasons might be different based on their order.