Guild Wars 2

FlamingFoxx.1305:

At what point would you classify a lesbian relationship as not being fan service?

When it exists in a collage of other reasonable and proportional displays of sexuality. i.e. there should be some gay guys too. And when Kasmeer starts dressing like she is actually traveling though a dessert/jungle and not attending a college Halloween party!

It would be fine as long as it doesn’t look forced and token. If the relationship is not relevant to the story, it should not be “OH BTW WE ARE GAY” spotlighted. Yes, I’m aware that hetero pairings do that a lot, but it’s not an excuse to repeat their fault.
Besides, gay pairings are a minority and I see no reason for them to not be a minority in Tyria.

NO !!!
this topic of introducing gay characters is crazy, it’s a game not a dating service, perhaps you can advertise your wanting gay male in the LFG panel, “looking for Gays”…
isn’t this world screwed up enough.

levelmakerguru.7210:

NO !!!
this topic of introducing gay characters is crazy, it’s a game not a dating service, perhaps you can advertise your wanting gay male in the LFG panel, “looking for Gays”…
isn’t this world screwed up enough.

Huh? We are talking about NPCs and ingame stories. That has nothing to do with dating no matter what sexual orientation.

Ascimator.6735:

Besides, gay pairings are a minority and I see no reason for them to not be a minority in Tyria.

You mean other than the fact that Tyria is a fictional fantasy universe who’s culture and history is completely different than our own?

Earth =/= Tyria. The ratio of straight to gay relationships is whatever the writers decide is appropriate.

Erukk.1408:

Ascimator.6735:

Besides, gay pairings are a minority and I see no reason for them to not be a minority in Tyria.

You mean other than the fact that Tyria is a fictional fantasy universe who’s culture and history is completely different than our own?

Earth =/= Tyria. The ratio of straight to gay relationships is whatever the writers decide is appropriate.

This fact means only that the ratio MAY be different, and provides no specific examples of why it is so (except sylvari).

I kind of assume that if forum-goers were to create expansion it will be “Relationship Wars: Gay of Thorns” :P Awesome name for the band, but not as funny game as one would hope.

Shut down this thread already.

It brings nothing, topic has already dried, causes unecessary stir, doesn’t belong to Lore subforum and because of that, people come to subforum just to argue, not discuss any lore.

Moderators, please, I told you that month ago, Close This Thread Already.
Reported it.

Rym.1469:

Shut down this thread already.

It brings nothing, topic has already dried, causes unecessary stir, doesn’t belong to Lore subforum and because of that, people come to subforum just to argue, not discuss any lore.

Moderators, please, I told you that month ago, Close This Thread Already.
Reported it.

No one is forcing you to read this. If you don’t like it, leave the thread already.

Indeed there is nothing wrong with the thread. I think this topic is nicely contained here so I hope bumping it is okay.

Firstly it was confirmed there is not prejudice in any of the player race societies on this subject, and that it would be looked on as perhaps strange but not with hostility.

I want to bring up something I am not sure others have, as most all examples are about potential couples. A male character can be gay or bisexual without being in a relationship. The reality is there are far fewer potential partners, and unrequited feelings are something people have to deal with regardless of orientation. Rytlock and Logan come up quite a bit, and it is very clear Rytlock is jealous of Jennah. Now it very well may be a platonic jealousy, but if Rytlock held feelings Logan could never return it would be something many gay men have to live with. Rytlock teased Logan the first time he met Jennah, but what if at the same time it stung him as she gave him a scarf as a gift? Rytlock gave Logan a Blood Legion symbol and invited him into his warband. Probably the second most off guard I have seen Rytlock is when Logan gave Rytlock that scarf in return, something a flabbergasted Rytlock tried to turn down until Logan insisted. I could easily see that moment being a time in which Rytlock accepts his unrequited feelings and tries to simply make the most of their friendship, making the scarf being given to him doubly awkward. It is important to note to a Charr the bond with other members of their warband is considered even stronger than that of lovers. The most caught off guard was of course when Logan left just before the fight with Kralkatorrik, to paraphrase… “You’re a part of my warband… my brother! You can’t abandon us!” At that point whether or not the feelings are platonic it is quite clear Logan hurt Rytlock extremely deeply. It would be the epitome of (blocking erroneous censor) awkwardness if this theory is correct and Rytlock got invited to be a best man at Logan and Jennah’s wedding, if their relationship progresses in that direction. To summarize a long-winded comment: the existence of a gay or bisexual male need not be in a token relationship.

Moving on from that subject, there are a lot of misconceptions about the Charr here. Firstly, there are enough heterosexual and bisexual Charr that population is a non-issue, especially since most relationships are more casual. The biggest mistake I see here is the Charr living outside the Charr lands being called gladium. Charr can live apart from their warband (and this is seen as suspiciously strange but not with open hostility), and they can be part of a legion while living far away. Evon Gnashblade for example is an Ash Legionnaire. Others already addressed the fact that Charr are not automotons and do have relationships, and even if most are more casual they are still relationships and there is not a taboo against the closer mates.

Zunnar.8503:

snip

Hmm, did all of that actually happen? I mean, it’s not indicative of anything but it is interesting.

That said, I bet so many people would rage if they found out Rytlock wasn’t the most manliest male thing to ever man a male (sentence sounds rather gay, huh?) which is odd. . . you can still be very masculine and not be heterosexual but apparently who he hits on at the bar makes him less bad-a to people? Fyi, I don’t care either way what Rytlock is, (I only have eyes for Tybalt!) and don’t think we’ll ever find out at all.

Leo G.4501:

Zunnar.8503:

snip

Hmm, did all of that actually happen? I mean, it’s not indicative of anything but it is interesting.

That said, I bet so many people would rage if they found out Rytlock wasn’t the most manliest male thing to ever man a male (sentence sounds rather gay, huh?) which is odd. . . you can still be very masculine and not be heterosexual but apparently who he hits on at the bar makes him less bad-a to people? Fyi, I don’t care either way what Rytlock is, (I only have eyes for Tybalt!) and don’t think we’ll ever find out at all.

It all happened but it all could be in the context of friendship and teamwork too.

I hope quoting the book is okay like this. I snipped it up as much as I could think to without removing the meaning. I’m hoping quoting like this is considered fair.

I think those four incidents are an enormous part explaining why Rytlock and Logan act the way they do towards each other in game. And yeah, it doesn’t say anything and there could be no more to it than friendship/brotherhood. If there were some unrequited feelings going on there though, I don’t think those quotes would contradict it. Importantly it wouldn’t affect who Rytlock is at all, because in the context of a charr a warband’s bond is even stronger than any crush would be.

Aww, those excerpts actually make it seem like Rytlock is more in tune with his heart and emotions than any other member of Destiny’s Edge (dunno about Snaff). That isn’t to say he’s sensitive, just he knows what his heart feels and isn’t the like to suppress it.

…I still like Tybalt more >_>

I do think this game and the community should avoid trying to forcefully insert lgbt/minority characters for the sake of a ‘tickbox’.

That being said, a gay character should be someone where it makes sense and is not “oh! btw here is a gay guy! aren’t we so progressive!” Plenty of gay characters are overly portrayed as such to the point where it is their identity, which is stupid. I am heterosexual, does that define me? Not really, no one ever says to me ‘OMG that is SO hetero!’ In general media whenever a gay character has been attempted they follow this general gist;

Lesbians are either the plaid shirt, earthy masculine woman or ridiculously attractive.

Gays are either super camp/flamboyant or massively tortured.

Either way they are defined by their sexuality. Which is not really the kind of character I would want to see.

I would prefer they design a character that is real and makes sense, where his sexuality only defines love interests rather than their personality and struggles. It should never be a ‘tickbox operation’, it should be done because it works.

Cross-species is a difficult one as we have no actual examples in modern life of other sentient and intelligent species to interact with and where a line would be drawn….though if you think logically norn x human maybe could work as both are overtly humanoid just different proportions but charr are feline and likely have feline sex organs…making procreation/sexual relations a bit awkward in regards to cross-species relationships with charr. Not to mention typically humans tend to stay within their own species in real life except for a few anomalies in society and not staying within your own species is a negative taboo, especially when the human sex drive is primarily for passing on genetics/having children so it would be likely considered strange for a human, for example, to find a charr attractive.

The cross-species with drastically different species (feline, primate, plant, imp?) thing is something a video game perhaps shouldn’t tackle as it could risk delving too deep into social taboos etc for a game and make it overly political. Other games were able to do it purely because for example WoW races are mostly humanoid and they never really delved massively into sexuality at all in the games.

Pyriel.4370:

I do think this game and the community should avoid trying to forcefully insert lgbt/minority characters for the sake of a ‘tickbox’.

That being said, a gay character should be someone where it makes sense and is not “oh! btw here is a gay guy! aren’t we so progressive!” Plenty of gay characters are overly portrayed as such to the point where it is their identity, which is stupid. I am heterosexual, does that define me? Not really, no one ever says to me ‘OMG that is SO hetero!’ In general media whenever a gay character has been attempted they follow this general gist;

Lesbians are either the plaid shirt, earthy masculine woman or ridiculously attractive.

Gays are either super camp/flamboyant or massively tortured.

Either way they are defined by their sexuality. Which is not really the kind of character I would want to see.

I would prefer they design a character that is real and makes sense, where his sexuality only defines love interests rather than their personality and struggles. It should never be a ‘tickbox operation’, it should be done because it works.

You have no idea how ridiculous what you just said is. There are plenty of gay women who are masculine or are conventionally ‘attractive, just as there are plenty of gay men who are flamboyant or who are tortured (you try not being tortured when you grow up in a world that deprives you of the same rights as everyone else?). To deny those people representation simply because you personally interpret it as pandering to a political agenda is not ok. We need more representation, not less or specifically codified representation. Nothing Arenanet has done has been a ’tickbox operation’. It’s inclusivity because they as a company believe in inclusivity. You are only able to perceive it as a tickbox operation because it isn’t normative in the media.

Do you look at hetero relationships in the game and go ‘oh well they’re just too conventionally hetero, they’re obviously pandering to the hetero agenda’. No you don’t, so don’t do it to LGTBQ representation.

Also, asking for gay characters where their sexuality isn’t their identity is also kind of ridiculous. For a lot of LGTBQ people their sexuality does become a huge part of their identity and daily life because it is non-normative and we live in a world where non-normative people are underrepresented. You are far more self aware of your own sexuality when 90% of people and relationships portrayed in the media don’t represent you…

FlamingFoxx.1305:

You have no idea how ridiculous what you just said is. There are plenty of gay women who are masculine or are conventionally ‘attractive, just as there are plenty of gay men who are flamboyant or who are tortured (you try not being tortured when you grow up in a world that deprives you of the same rights as everyone else?). To deny those people representation simply because you personally interpret it as pandering to a political agenda is not ok. We need more representation, not less or specifically codified representation. Nothing Arenanet has done has been a ’tickbox operation’. It’s inclusivity because they as a company believe in inclusivity. You are only able to perceive it as a tickbox operation because it isn’t normative in the media.

Do you look at hetero relationships in the game and go ‘oh well they’re just too conventionally hetero, they’re obviously pandering to the hetero agenda’. No you don’t, so don’t do it to LGTBQ representation.

Also, asking for gay characters where their sexuality isn’t their identity is also kind of ridiculous. For a lot of LGTBQ people their sexuality does become a huge part of their identity and daily life because it is non-normative and we live in a world where non-normative people are underrepresented. You are far more self aware of your own sexuality when 90% of people and relationships portrayed in the media don’t represent you…

I think you’re way off. Granted, I believe you’re just sharing your opinion but the person you quote is doing the same.

But I feel you’re way off in certain points:

• Inacting a trope just because one feels it’s more representative of some subset of a culture or community is just not good writing. It’s artificial and cliche. One should avoid making characters that fit into an archetype if only to have more pride in their work but to also appeal to the readers who are extremely acquainted with said tropes.
• People do look at hetero relationships as a tickbox. It’s a trope in and of itself and if done badly will not save it from being ridiculed and put on blast just because it’s hetero. Heck, viewers tend to write off characters as “token love interest no.9” when it is revealed or implied that the protagonist is interested and 7 times out of 10 that love interest plays no important role thus ridiculed. It’s a tickbox that is almost always checked for whatever reason even though it doesn’t help the story and people notice and ridicule it for that.
• I doubt someone who is gay wants to be identified as gay and nothing else. People have hobbies, goals, skills, talents, opinions, etc that don’t revolve around who they are attracted to. Granted, I don’t want the devs to bother making a character whose interesting, important to the story and….“oh, yeah he’s gay…but that’s not important”…. No! Take advantage of that and how that character interacts with other characters! But that doesn’t have to be the defining aspect of the character.

Pssstt..

Asexual character.

I can has?

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Pyriel.4370:

I do think this game and the community should avoid trying to forcefully insert lgbt/minority characters for the sake of a ‘tickbox’.

That being said, a gay character should be someone where it makes sense and is not “oh! btw here is a gay guy! aren’t we so progressive!” Plenty of gay characters are overly portrayed as such to the point where it is their identity, which is stupid. I am heterosexual, does that define me? Not really, no one ever says to me ‘OMG that is SO hetero!’ In general media whenever a gay character has been attempted they follow this general gist;

Lesbians are either the plaid shirt, earthy masculine woman or ridiculously attractive.

Gays are either super camp/flamboyant or massively tortured.

Either way they are defined by their sexuality. Which is not really the kind of character I would want to see.

I would prefer they design a character that is real and makes sense, where his sexuality only defines love interests rather than their personality and struggles. It should never be a ‘tickbox operation’, it should be done because it works.

You have no idea how ridiculous what you just said is. There are plenty of gay women who are masculine or are conventionally ‘attractive, just as there are plenty of gay men who are flamboyant or who are tortured (you try not being tortured when you grow up in a world that deprives you of the same rights as everyone else?). To deny those people representation simply because you personally interpret it as pandering to a political agenda is not ok. We need more representation, not less or specifically codified representation. Nothing Arenanet has done has been a ’tickbox operation’. It’s inclusivity because they as a company believe in inclusivity. You are only able to perceive it as a tickbox operation because it isn’t normative in the media.

Do you look at hetero relationships in the game and go ‘oh well they’re just too conventionally hetero, they’re obviously pandering to the hetero agenda’. No you don’t, so don’t do it to LGTBQ representation.

Also, asking for gay characters where their sexuality isn’t their identity is also kind of ridiculous. For a lot of LGTBQ people their sexuality does become a huge part of their identity and daily life because it is non-normative and we live in a world where non-normative people are underrepresented. You are far more self aware of your own sexuality when 90% of people and relationships portrayed in the media don’t represent you…

Ok, you took me really the wrong way there it is almost insulting.

I meant masculine or overtly ‘attractive’ as in the stereotypes that lesbians are represented with. I know plenty of lesbians who are by no means either of those, they are not overtly masculine or sexualised. Same with gay men, I know plenty of gay men who are not the stereotype of flamboyant or tortured. Is it wrong for wanting to see less stereotypes? After all, isn’t the main aim of the LGBT movement equal treatment and 0 discrimination? It was that the last time I checked. Stereotypes only serve to undermine that.

Stop being offended for offended’s sake, it wont get you anywhere. I have made legitimate points in regards to not wanting GW characters to become a lgbt/minority ‘tickbox’ operation rather than actually having a character where their sexuality is only a small part of who they are, ya know…like most real people. It would serve no purpose to shoehorn characters in because ‘guild wars needs more gay people’, it has to make sense to the story.

By not being defined by their sexuality I mean someone who has MORE to them. I.e. a personality, hopes, dreams, struggles, flaws, strengths, talents.

My point about representation is an ACCURATE representation of homosexual people, where they are people, not their sexual demographic.

BTW I also dislike it when any relationship or sexual content is shoehorned, like the hero all of a sudden kisses the girl who until then had no interest in him (looking at you National Treasure). My point about me not being defined by my sexuality is that no one should be defined by just their sexuality, that is extremely shallow.

Please refrain from getting so worked up as that type of toxicity makes it difficult to have an actual conversation about a good topic. You really should calm down and read things through properly because all you have said to me is that we should shoehorn more gay stereotypes and it’s apparently fine to do that…

I think it is wonderful we have this medium to discuss this civilly. Of course things will get a bit heated sometimes, but I think we can all remain civil and try and remain more level-headed. I mean no offense to any with this response.

Okay I don’t think I need to make a bunch of quotes to respond to all of that.

1.) On the topic of a “tortured” character or one where their sexuality defines them:
There was no history of mass repression in the Guild Wars universe, or certainly not in the context of modern Tyria. At most it sounds like a Flame Legion kind of thing considering it’s implied females are treated literally as animals, so perhaps taking a stereotypically female role in mating would be seen as demeaning in the twisted lens of the flame legion. You meet a charr woman who didn’t even know how to speak when she was rescued, which paints a very dark picture into how the Flame Legion dealt with women being instrumental in its fall from power. I don’t think this is ever outright stated, but the game takes a “somewhere between G and PG” tone when it comes to sexual matters, so I doubt they will outright say the females of the Flame Legion are reduced to sex slaves that aren’t even allowed to learn to speak, but it seems heavily implied by that dialog in the Iron Marches. That said it was directly stated that there is not a prejudice in Tyria regarding same sex relationships: it’s considered weird but not regarded with hostility. It would make no sense to shoehorn a personality in to represent a type of behavior/emotional state formed as a result of real life history. Considering it’s a huge point of pride that all Charr are regarded equally based on their merits, I suspect implying taking a “female” role in mating is somehow demeaning would earn a rather dangerous reaction from female Charr. I like the example of Rytlock here because it would change absolutely nothing whatever way he swings.

In fact, I would go so far as to say bringing blatant attention to it would be hideously frivolous since it would drag in real-world issues “just because.” Such characters simply happening to exist is a far better way of doing it.

2.) On the topic interracial aka mixed species relationships:
This would perhaps be frowned upon between races with current or recent political animosity, or a “eww gross” kind of reaction, but when it comes to the whole “animal” thing the Charr (or other animal-like races for that matter) are not arbitrarily controversial because they happen to be feline, any more than humans happen to be primates.

The fact of that matter is, whatever the form Charr anatomy may take, they are far more similar to humans than not, and are at the least equal in intelligence. Interracial relationships (which is a way of frequently saying interspecies relationships when all parties involved are ‘sentient’ on a human-like level or higher) are nothing new or controversial. The Charr are no more different than humans than say Klingons in Star Trek for example. The fact that they are feline is of superficial consequence, and if you look at it logically there are way more anatomical similarities than differences.

The developers, in fact, have outright confirmed the Sylvari can have intimate physical relations with any of the other races of Tyria. This isn’t the kind of thing they address in game, but they have addressed it.

Opposition to a Charr-human relationship or approval of a Sylvari-human relationship simply based on the looks of the races is pretty much akin to the logic behind real world anti-miscegenation laws. There isn’t any logical basis to condemn relationships between consenting individuals, and it was never controversial in the other sci-fi/fantasy media that addressed it. Khajiit player characters and Argonians in Skyrim can wed the more human-looking races, and there are I’m sure tons of other examples. There is at least one half-Bothan half-human character addressed in the Star Wars books, and the Bothans are depicted as variously canine/equine in appearance. They did inexplicably tone down the feline features of the Caitians for Star Trek: Into Darkness, but the fact is they had Captain Kirk fooling around with not one but two women of an alien species long-established as feline.

Heck, the actor who played Garak on Deep Space Nine pretty much made the character bisexual, and played him as flirting with Dr. Bashir in his first episode. He was asked to tone it down, and it wasn’t because his character wasn’t human. (Considering his character was only intended to be in one episode though and he became a recurring guest role, obviously they did not hold this against the actor, and they even let him write his own book about the character later.)

Now hey I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with finding it gross, but the fact is all of the races of GW2 are far more like humans than different.

Well, I dont know for the next same-sex relationship in GW2, but I met a guy in Fort Marriner who decided he didn’t want to be a man anymore. His speach sounds like what he’s doing is not common in Tyria.

There are many good points there.

In terms of tortured though I mean the stereotype that gay men are either so far out of the closet that they are on the moon with rainbow parades and a lisp, or they are so far in they cry themselves to sleep, the latter being the ‘tortured’ stereotype (the tortured one holds some small amounts of water in that coming out is still a stressful event).

The problem with the species thing is segregation of relationships would happen naturally between species and humans do tend to stick to humans (i.e. there aren’t many humans that break that taboo). The difference between miscegenation laws and how it would seem in GW is likely to be night and day as, for example, being African or European holds no real physical difference except for slight cosmetic and genetic differences and all the parts work as intended regardless. My trepidation is how that would be different in regards to other sentient races, where the difference is so great, they could even not be able to conceive a child from said union, which is a good marker for whether a society would initially be supportive of this or not, or whether attraction is actually possible. We have no real life examples or observations of the interaction of one intelligent species with other different intelligent species, hence not knowing how it would work, but it would be safe to say when looking at our own Medieval history, lines would be drawn, no matter how liberal the Queen is.. Plus unless we had the full anatomy of the races, I would doubt most of this question regarding sexual relations between all the species of GW2 would ever be answered.

But bear in mind this is a game rated Teen, so people from ages 13 can play it legally. So while I can imagine GW2 pushing some boundaries, I wouldn’t think they would put gigantic focus on this and tbf this game is about killing big dragons, so I doubt they should either as well Anet has social responsibility as a business, it should not really be trying to solve the world’s issues.

Zunnar.8503:

~on topic #2~

YEAH! Totally agree and well worded

I actually hope they introduce such a dynamic in the game without forcing it! I feel such an interracial relationship would require a lot more time to develop since it’s likely not physical attraction taking place but a more spiritual or personal bond that forms and strengthens over time. I still don’t think it should be common but not non-existent!

Pyriel.4370:

But bear in mind this is a game rated Teen, so people from ages 13 can play it legally. So while I can imagine GW2 pushing some boundaries, I wouldn’t think they would put gigantic focus on this and tbf this game is about killing big dragons, so I doubt they should either as well Anet has social responsibility as a business, it should not really be trying to solve the world’s issues.

Firstly, the game is about far more than “killing big dragons,” as the massive effort put into the characters and lore shows. In addition to that, ArenaNet put a lot of thought into these things, including things that will never come up in game. Just because they never bring up sexual matters in game for example, does not mean they have not thought about them when designing the lore. The confirmation that Sylvari can have physical relations with any of the other races is perhaps the biggest example of this, in addition to the fact most Charr relationships are stated to be casual (and no, not in the ‘just to produce cubs’ sense).

Secondly, the ESRB system has no legal bearing as established by USA courts protecting the first amendment. It is a voluntary system. I know that is different for other countries, but I highly doubt anyone but the most extreme of politicians would take notice of this.

It’s clear at face value that all of the races are more similar to humans than not. Any quirks of specifics are kind of irrelevant in my opinion, even the fact that Sylvari are just made in the humanoid shape with fully functional parts so they can interact as other humanoids do. I would argue people do not have intimacy for reproduction, more like reproduction is a side effect of the physical intimacy that is ingrained in people. The Sylvari have the necessary body parts for this but are not fertile, not even with each other. It is only to participate in such intimacy that they even have the parts for it.

And lastly, since I didn’t mention this, I think the only thing of significance is that the parties involved are desiring such intimacy. Similarity of anatomy is a superficial thing that shouldn’t matter at all, but even if it did they are all more similarly shaped than different.

Interracial relationships in the context of the game have nothing to do with any real world issues considering for one we do not know of any other species with intelligence comparable with humanity and for two most of the civilized world is long past mass opposition to interracial relationships.

The whole “can produce offspring” argument is one of the flimsiest ones in existence in trying to determine if a relationship is appropriate. It is pretty much only ever brought up as an excuse to either ridicule or deny rights. You pretty much never hear of anyone try and tell infertile people they have no business in relationships. Cultures that still sell women are another thing entirely, but that isn’t a factor most of the time bring up the “can produce children” card.

It may not be ArenaNet’s responsibility to chime in on social issues, but it’s certainly not their responsibility to avoid any taboo that might raise the hackles of people with hyperjudgemental perspectives on intimacy. I’ll note that I’ve noticed people out to judge other relationships tend to be absolutely obsessed with the physical mechanics of sex too. How everyone’s bits are shaped and whether they can produce children are 100% irrelevant when talking about two consenting sentient adult characters. I am not accusing anyone here of this perspective, but the post I’m responding to certainly suggests ArenaNet should bow down to avoid making those with that perspective go all “eww gross.”

All I’m gonna add here is that any race can be gay with exceptian to Sylvari who are as a species Pan-sexual (Does that count as gay?). Or at least thats how they seem to be written. Caith could have just as easily fallen for a “Male” Sylvari she just didn’t they don’t see gender the same as other races do. Hell i doubt they even see races like other races do. In fact I’d love to see a Sylvari in love with a non sylvari, played for laughs or seriously.

As far as more gay males. Yeah, Id say thats a must the game needs more primary male characters in the first place, why not make them gay. I’m sold so long as they have actual chemistry with there partner, unlike so many couples in fiction who get away with being terribly written simply on the grounds that they are gay. when will people learn that being PC is not a substitution for good writing?

Zunnar.8503:

Firstly, the game is about far more than “killing big dragons,” ……

Yes I get that they can expand on Lore but these things don’t get much representation in-game and likely won’t. Hence the topic being interracial relationships in game.

Zunnar.8503:

Secondly, the ESRB system has no legal bearing….

No, but angry parents do, it is common practice to stay within it, it isn’t as voluntary as you’d think. While not legally binding, it is still important.

Zunnar.8503:

It’s clear at face value that all of the races are more similar to humans than not. Any quirks of specifics are kind of irrelevant in my opinion, even the fact that Sylvari …..

Quirks of specifics forge better storylines, in terms of relationships it is the specifics that matter. I get humans don’t only have intimacy for reproduction but can that be said for Norn, Asura and Charr? E.g. the Charr spend more time in the legions than with their partners.

Zunnar.8503:

And lastly, since I didn’t mention this, I think the only thing of significance is that the parties involved are desiring such intimacy. Similarity of anatomy is a superficial thing that shouldn’t matter at all, but even if it did they are all more similarly shaped than different.

Part of my point is would races desire intimacy with other races, hence the whole ‘because we don’t have an example in real life, we don’t know’ because our human sexuality is founded on the biological imperative to have children, otherwise we wouldn’t have a sex drive. Sure there are more intelligent aspects to it now since we became intelligent as a species but that foundation is still there.

Zunnar.8503:

Interracial relationships in the context of the game have nothing to do with any real world issues considering for one we do not know of any other species with intelligence comparable with humanity and for two most of the civilized world is long past mass opposition to interracial relationships.

You were quoting real world issues such as segregation. Also ‘realistic’ and reflective storylines seem to work best.

Zunnar.8503:

The whole “can produce offspring” argument is one of the flimsiest ones in existence in trying to determine if a relationship is appropriate. It is pretty much only ever brought up as …….

In terms of acceptance, the base argument and reason that homosexuals had/have such a hard time is people cannot accept it as natural because it cannot bear children. I’m not saying that is the correct opinion but it is a great gauge on how a pseudo-war time, slightly impoverished medieval community would react. Like a mob. Sure Marjory and Kasmeer could be fine, but they are already outcasts and live outside the norms of Tyrian society.

Zunnar.8503:

It may not be ArenaNet’s responsibility to chime in on social issues, but it’s certainly not their responsibility to avoid any taboo that might raise the hackles of people with hyperjudgemental perspectives on intimacy. I’ll note that I’ve noticed people out to judge other relationships tend to be absolutely obsessed with the physical mechanics of sex too. How everyone’s bits are shaped and whether they can produce children are 100% irrelevant when talking about two consenting sentient adult characters. I am not accusing anyone here of this perspective, but the post I’m responding to certainly suggests ArenaNet should bow down to avoid making those with that perspective go all “eww gross.”

It was more that Anet should be concentrating on more stuff than world issues regarding sexuality in the game, after all it is an action MMO. I would doubt they would go down the route of a charr x human relationship particularly because lore wise it wouldn’t make much sense.

I actually find the thought of a asuraxcharr or asuraxnorn (for example brahamxTaimi) sexual relationship much more unsettling. And yes, i think that it sound like it could be pretty hurtful for the asura. Not only because of size, but also because of these races often being a bit more robust in the way they show their emotions. so while I totally can see a character feeling love for another character from a different race (you’ve got this interracial family with asura parent and charr and human children in LA for example), i think Anet is right with not putting in any too sexual stuff.

I don’t care much about what gender/sex the person has, that the NPCs share their bed with…I just want them to be multi dimensional characters with strenghts and weaknesses and I want females that are not just eyecandy in bikinis. And on that Anet did a pretty fine job (eventhough kasmeer is dressed a bit unpractical for accompaning the PC to the desert).
If it helps the story develope then I’d like to have a homosexual, manly NPC (a forgal-kind of guy for example), but the character shouldn’t have “homosexual” as the only personality trait in the game.
generally tyria is not the real world, so the ratio of kitten to hetero could be different…it also probably deppend on the races and their cultures a lot. The norn and asura probably don’t care a lot because what they see als a purpose for their life isn’t really “starting a family”, the charr also don’t have a focus on that matter and would probably have no problem with homosexuality on its own but more with the induviduals focusing too much on one person instead of the whole warband.
the humans…well they seem the most family focused to me, but that doesn have to mean that there are the same stereotypes and discrimination in their society as in our world so using the same stereotypes would probably not fit the story.

Pyriel.4370:

Quirks of specifics forge better storylines, in terms of relationships it is the specifics that matter. I get humans don’t only have intimacy for reproduction but can that be said for Norn, Asura and Charr? E.g. the Charr spend more time in the legions than with their partners.

There are plenty of examples of Norn and Charr ‘intimacy’ without the specific goal of reproduction. Asura are a more complicated subject, however.

But intimacy need not be the only empathetic emotion that determines this matter in black and white. Compassion. Jealousy. Faith. Loyalty. These are all strong emotions that alter our way of thinking and thus our actions. It’s too difficult to put a black-and-white filter over this and call it a day. Just because they aren’t human doesn’t mean they don’t feel or express themselves like us, because in a nutshell, our emotions aren’t unique to us as humans which has been expressed time and time again in so much/many examples that your stance, to be polite but frank, has no ground to work from.

Pyriel.4370:

Part of my point is would races desire intimacy with other races, hence the whole ‘because we don’t have an example in real life, we don’t know’ because our human sexuality is founded on the biological imperative to have children, otherwise we wouldn’t have a sex drive. Sure there are more intelligent aspects to it now since we became intelligent as a species but that foundation is still there.

The last part of your sentence pretty much counteracts the rest of this paragraph. The thing is, we don’t have to prove the races would desire intimacy with other races, we just need a base to work from and that base is emotion. From there, grey is introduced and thus the whole “biological imperative” aspect is rather moot, especially if there isn’t an immediate danger of extinction.

Sure, the dragons are a threat, but they are a threat of another type. If the dinosaurs reproduced faster because they knew they’d become extinct if they didn’t, it wouldn’t have saved them. The elder dragons are meteors, here.

Pyriel.4370:

In terms of acceptance, the base argument and reason that homosexuals had/have such a hard time is people cannot accept it as natural because it cannot bear children. I’m not saying that is the correct opinion but it is a great gauge on how a pseudo-war time, slightly impoverished medieval community would react. Like a mob. Sure Marjory and Kasmeer could be fine, but they are already outcasts and live outside the norms of Tyrian society.

They are? To my knowledge, Kasmeer isn’t accepted within the nobles for completely different reasons than her sexuality and neither are outcast from society at all. Also, Tyria isn’t a pseudo-wartime, slightly impoverished medieval community. If anything, this is a Renaissance as the races are working together to make leaps and bounds in known knowledge, technology and historical intelligence.

Pyriel.4370:

It was more that Anet should be concentrating on more stuff than world issues regarding sexuality in the game, after all it is an action MMO. I would doubt they would go down the route of a charr x human relationship particularly because lore wise it wouldn’t make much sense.

I agree. Anet should concentrate on more stuff than just sexuality in the game. However, that doesn’t mean they need to sink all their resources into specific goals because not everyone on their team can contribute to said goals. Some are story tellers, some programmers and some artists, etc. They have the manpower to do more than several things at once so if they choose to explore sexuality of characters, I just hope they do so tastefully and not push it to the forefront.

And a charrxhuman relationship makes total sense! From what I’ve learned about Rytlock and Logan, I wouldn’t be thrown for a loop if one had feelings for the other. The backstory for two of my characters has unrequited love for the other but it doesn’t go far because of their goals being different and those characters are a Charr and human.

The story tellers can make a lot of things work if they tell the story right. Don’t be so narrow-minded

Leo G.4501:

There are plenty of examples of Norn and Charr ‘intimacy’ without the specific goal of reproduction. Asura are a more complicated subject, however.

I have never seen that :S please can you forward me to these parts?

Leo G.4501:

But intimacy need not be the only empathetic emotion that determines this matter in black and white. ….

Yes I get that platonic relationships can occur or care-giving relationships. In terms of sexual relationships though, biology comes a lot into that.

Leo G.4501:

The last part of your sentence pretty much counteracts the rest of this paragraph. …..

Please don’t take that out of context, that was in relation to there being a biological basis for sexual attraction while we have also superimposed emotional needs on top of procreation. In terms of the biological imperative, it gives humans a sex drive, therefore physical attraction for other humans, I don’t think that would work the same way for other races.

Leo G.4501:

Sure, the dragons are a threat, but they are a threat of another type. If the dinosaurs reproduced faster because they knew they’d become extinct if they didn’t, it wouldn’t have saved them. The elder dragons are meteors, here.

I would dispute that but that would tangent off this discussion.

Leo G.4501:

They are? To my knowledge, Kasmeer isn’t accepted within the nobles for completely different reasons than her sexuality and neither are outcast from society at all. Also, Tyria isn’t a pseudo-wartime, slightly ….

Yes, I meant that they were already living outside of society after both becoming outcast somewhat, Marjory being outcast from the Ministry Guard and Kasmeer from the nobles, in reality all of destiny’s edge 2.0 are outcast/undesirables, cept maybe Brahm. Marjory and Kasmeer’s relationship will likely not be frowned upon because they are not elites from the Human society, as there are likely to be prejudices and standards in the high society (as we know the nobles are not all that nice at all).

The races are also not working together as much as you’d think,

- The humans and charr led by Smodur have only just signed a peace treaty with separatism on both sides regarding it, and the humans are still contesting for land with the Centaurs, and the charr are still contesting land with the Ascalonians.

- The asura knew about certain aspects of the dragons consuming magic and worked to keep it a secret while they made sure rata sum benefitted from it. The asura also think of themselves as superior to other races, some even sympathising with the inquest using the other races for experiments.

- Quite a few Sylvari split to join the Nightmare court, waging war on the dream and it’s supporters.

- Each race has major separatism and/or civil war conditions, and regards other races with suspicion somewhat, bear in mind Lion’s arch and the Orders are kind of anomalies with the orders act something like how the Church acted during Medieval times in terms of your allegiance switching from your ‘country’ to your order, and Lions Arch being founded by Pirates who already were outcasts.

The conditions are very much war-like, leaps in tech come from the wartime conditions against the dragons and other issues. Like the Ghost Flame being developed by the Ascalonians and stolen by the Charr. GW2’s universe is far from peacetime.

Also there is tons of poverty in GW, it is just never touched on that much due to other things taking precedent over that in the story and not being that appropriate to the story of defeating the elder dragons.

Leo G.4501:

And a charrxhuman relationship makes total sense! From what I’ve learned about Rytlock and Logan, I wouldn’t be thrown for a loop if one had feelings for the other. The backstory for two of my characters has unrequited love for the other but it doesn’t go far because of their goals being different and those characters are a Charr and human.

Charr x Human would make no sense. Charr for example leave their children to the legions and the Fahrar and have no bond with them really, humans rear their own children largely. Charr are feline, Humans are primate (would you find an intelligent lion attractive?). Logan loves Queen Jennah (duh) and Rytlock has a band of brothers aspect to pretty much all his relationships. He’s the tribune of the Blood Legion, I’d be surprised if he had time in his diary for any sexual relationship.

Leo G.4501:

The story tellers can make a lot of things work if they tell the story right. Don’t be so narrow-minded

While yes that is true, it is more how far should they concern themselves to go.

Either way if they put in a major gay character, I would wager it will he a sylvari or human with another of the same race (if they find their partner).

To be honest, I’d rather have no relations whatsoever be shoved in my face. Very rarely these have a meaningful impact on the story, other than to make a death more emotional.

Having a few meaningful NPC’s have some flirtatious banter with my hero would be more than enough for me.

Yes I get that platonic relationships can occur or care-giving relationships. In terms of sexual relationships though, biology comes a lot into that.

All of the races except the Sylvari are extremely biologically similar, and even the Sylvari have anatomy designed to be compatible. You are pointing out very superficial differences in anatomy.

In terms of the biological imperative, it gives humans a sex drive, therefore physical attraction for other humans, I don’t think that would work the same way for other races.

The whole point of the Sylvari having bodies mechanically compatible is to understand and take part in such things, and again the other races are far more alike the humans than different biologically.

the charr are still contesting land with the Ascalonians.

Those Ascalonians are cursed ghosts with the only active conflict with humans being the criminals not associated with official government, not that this has anything to do with the rest of my response.

Charr x Human would make no sense. Charr for example leave their children to the legions and the Fahrar and have no bond with them really, humans rear their own children largely. Charr are feline, Humans are primate (would you find an intelligent lion attractive?). Logan loves Queen Jennah (duh) and Rytlock has a band of brothers aspect to pretty much all his relationships. He’s the tribune of the Blood Legion, I’d be surprised if he had time in his diary for any sexual relationship.

Oh where to begin here? Firstly regardless of race characters are individuals. Some Charr do keep in touch with their children and some humans outright abandon theirs. Both Charr and humans are humanoid in shape, both are mammals and so are far more similar than different even then, and both are of roughly equal intelligence. The latter is pretty much the only thing that matters too. You keep bringing up reproduction when that is not the basis for all relationships, much less same sex ones. As to your question about intelligent lions, obviously it would surprise you but there are entire fandoms revolving around anthropomorphic animals, fantasy races, and all manners of fictional sentient creatures that yes include people that can find them attractive.

On the topic of Rytlock he is not an automoton. It is possible he has never pursued a relationship but even then it does not mean he is ‘made of stone’ to paraphrase a Charr character in Ghosts of Ascalon. Regardless of which way he swings Rytlock is clearly a very emotional character, so I would not assume he is pretty much asexual simply due to his dedication to duty.

I agree Logan almost certainly has his eyes set on Jennah but that would only reinforce the jealousy Rytlock already has. As I said it could absolutely be platonic but he is clearly jealous of her. I went over my thoughts on that in detail a few posts ago so I will leave it at that here.

While yes that is true, it is more how far should they concern themselves to go.

Either way if they put in a major gay character, I would wager it will he a sylvari or human with another of the same race (if they find their partner).

You seem really preoccupied with the notion a mixed race couple would somehow be extemely strange or even controversial but the topic is not at all out of the ordinary in scifi/fantasy settings, as I gave a few examples of earlier.

This brings me back to my original point: not all characters need be paired up. Again while I fully acknowledge the Rytlock situation cold be totally platonic, it would not surprise me if he was attracted to Logan, and really his attempts to join him in a brotherly relationship would make perfect sense especially in response to Logan’s attraction to Jennah being clear.

Unrequited feelings that a character learns to live with, even if that is not easy, would work fine for a gay or bisexual character, or even a straight one. Not all romantic feelings are mutual, and a strong friendship existing despite that I think would be interesting.

Seems what you are replying to is my reply to Leo G.

“Charr and humans are humanoid in shape, both are mammals and so are far more similar than different even then, and both are of roughly equal intelligence. The latter is pretty much the only thing that matters too.”

Well Charr are feline and likely will have feline sex organs, that work differently to human sex organs. That’s a start. I am also saying that attraction usually is based on your own race, or something extremely similar (even in Sci Fi the ‘attractive’ races do not vary much if at all from humans). It is basic biology. If a relationship doesn’t bear children, then it is likely a society would taboo it, Tyrians still have their prejudices, remember that.

“You keep bringing up reproduction when that is not the basis for all relationships, much less same sex ones.”

It is the basis for attraction. Homosexuality is seen in nature, cross species is not. I am not saying it is the basis for relationships, but an attraction kind of has to be there for an intimate sexual relationship. Most humans would likely go ‘eww charr? really?’. Again basic biology. Nevermind the cultural differences.

The realistic nature of Rytlock is that he is a soldier first and foremost and thinks of logan as a brother in arms and was pained by his betrayal that was made worse by the death of an ally. There is little to no reason to make them a romantic pairing.

Also Guild Wars will likely never have a ‘shocking’ interracial pairing simply because of many lore issues, many real life issues and there are other avenues for the story to develop.

Also most of this is now massively off-target for the original post and thread so to avoid it closing I would suggest bringing the conversation back to the original point of how Anet should involve a homosexual male in the storyline.

Please read this thread for anything further on this as it has many good points.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Are-there-interracial-couples

Pyriel.4370:

Leo G.4501:

There are plenty of examples of Norn and Charr ‘intimacy’ without the specific goal of reproduction. Asura are a more complicated subject, however.

I have never seen that :S please can you forward me to these parts?

I’d say listen to any of the pick up lines or tavern chatter. I bet their primary goal isn’t too make lots of babies but instead to wet their willies.

Pyriel.4370:

Yes I get that platonic relationships can occur or care-giving relationships. In terms of sexual relationships though, biology comes a lot into that.

Leo G.4501:

The last part of your sentence pretty much counteracts the rest of this paragraph. …..

Please don’t take that out of context, that was in relation to there being a biological basis for sexual attraction while we have also superimposed emotional needs on top of procreation. In terms of the biological imperative, it gives humans a sex drive, therefore physical attraction for other humans, I don’t think that would work the same way for other races.

You keep bringing up biological incompatible. Genetically? Yes. Everything else? We don’t really know. But frankly, relationships don’t have to be sexual in the traditional sense to be intimate.

As for finding other creatures attractive or interacting sexually, I’ll just say there are some stories on the Internet that prove you wrong. Charr, Norn, humans and other races like the kodan, skritt, grawl, etc are mammals and likely have similar plumbing to other mammals. The particular example that might present doubt it’s the asura. They might have weird plumbing like cloacas or something. But who knows. They still birth young like mammals. But this is going on a tangent.

Pyriel.4370:

It is the basis for attraction. Homosexuality is seen in nature, cross species is not.

Just wanted to comment that this is false.

Google hybrid species. Consider tigers and Lions can and do cross breed and they are of different species. Also look up some activities of dolphins. There are plenty of examples.

Mammal is a large demographic, from Rodents to Blue Whales. It doesn’t mean there are any levels of compatibility unless they are VERY close evolutionarily speaking E.g. Elephants cannot bear children from Whales. Plumbing or no.

Biological compatibility pretty much determines attraction. Intimate sexual relationships also involve love making, hence sexual relationships, if you have seen how felines mate, a human wouldn’t survive that if the charr were similar, considering the charr are also feline. Also this is a discussion of someone being labelled with a sexuality (homosexuality) which would mean sex comes into it.

In terms of finding other animals attractive, in the real world, that is messed up and also illegal to enact upon in most places for a reason, because that is gross.

This is again getting too far off topic for my liking anyways. I have linked a thread in my previous comment that has some very good points regarding interracial relationships in GW. I would suggest having a read and comment on that.

Pyriel.4370:

Mammal is a large demographic, from Rodents to Blue Whales. It doesn’t mean there are any levels of compatibility unless they are VERY close evolutionarily speaking E.g. Elephants cannot bear children from Whales. Plumbing or no.

And we all realize this. Bearing children had no bearing on the discussion, however. Not when you’re talking same sex relations either. What we’re saying is charr, humans, norn, elephants, blue Whales, etc have male and female genitalia and that’s all you need to interact. The main hurdle to cross is size difference and arousal. Again, finding another race appealing is going to differ with individuals. And I’m done talking about that because further all likely get this thread locked. Already commented about cross racial and species attraction and will tell you to just research it.

I’ll just go on the record as saying I don’t find a relationship between a charr and a human grosse or inconceivable. I actual think it’s sweet since likely it’d involve a charr who seeks companionship but struggling to find such in their own race because of the majority of their culture. And It’d likely involve a human who looks past superficial boundaries and problematic history with their ancestry.

Leo G.4501:

Pyriel.4370:

Mammal is a large demographic, from Rodents to Blue Whales. It doesn’t mean there are any levels of compatibility unless they are VERY close evolutionarily speaking E.g. Elephants cannot bear children from Whales. Plumbing or no.

And we all realize this. Bearing children had no bearing on the discussion, however. Not when you’re talking same sex relations either. What we’re saying is charr, humans, norn, elephants, blue Whales, etc have male and female genitalia and that’s all you need to interact. The main hurdle to cross is size difference and arousal. Again, finding another race appealing is going to differ with individuals. And I’m done talking about that because further all likely get this thread locked. Already commented about cross racial and species attraction and will tell you to just research it.

I’ll just go on the record as saying I don’t find a relationship between a charr and a human grosse or inconceivable. I actual think it’s sweet since likely it’d involve a charr who seeks companionship but struggling to find such in their own race because of the majority of their culture. And It’d likely involve a human who looks past superficial boundaries and problematic history with their ancestry.

In a society like tyria where everyone is pretty much at war, the ability to bear children is a thing that would influence relationships in mainstream society (except sylvari), this would typically also be determined if they are able to find each other attractive, which likely would not be the case in regards to Asura and Charr as they are only humanoid by their bipedalism (not full bipedalism for Charr) and arms/hands.

Same sex relationships are one thing culturally, inter-species sexual relations would be extremely taboo regarding charr, asura and the other races.

If they ever did anything like that, it would likely be a norn and a human (as they have done in GW1 where one of the quests has you nearly marry a norn).

Now let’s turn the topic back to how they could introduce a homosexual character in GW properly.

Leo G.4501:

Pyriel.4370:

It is the basis for attraction. Homosexuality is seen in nature, cross species is not.

Just wanted to comment that this is false.

Google hybrid species. Consider tigers and Lions can and do cross breed and they are of different species. Also look up some activities of dolphins. There are plenty of examples.

They are both of the feline order and not massively genetically diverged. That is how they can mate and produce offspring. They are what humans would be to neanderthals genetically. Poor example there as I should also point out that Ligers, for example, happen almost exclusively in captivity where we encourage it, and they are born with genetic defects such as infertility, so via natural selection, lions/tigers who showed that behaviour of interspecies mating would have their genetics die out, while the other behaviours survive and carry on.

The reason we are so interested in the activity of dolphins is because they show weird aspects to their behaviour. Another poor example.

Charr x Human would be close to human and a talking lion that walks on it’s hind legs rather than lion x tiger.

Pyriel.4370:

In a society like tyria where everyone is pretty much at war, the ability to bear children is a thing that would influence relationships in mainstream society (except sylvari), this would typically also be determined if they are able to find each other attractive, which likely would not be the case in regards to Asura and Charr as they are only humanoid by their bipedalism (not full bipedalism for Charr) and arms/hands.

Just wanted to comment that war in Tyria is much different than war in our world. Throwing numbers at others tend not to be what is necessary to win a war. Consider that magic can turn the tide of war and only requires a select few to cast. Heroes such as the likes of DE amount to nearly a platoon or company of soldiers PER member of their team. Things exist that can be used as soldiers, such as elementals, undead, golems, etc. People can survive much more lethal damage through various means such as abnormal resilience, powers/abilities, healing magic, resurrection magic/techniques or bypass the damage through odd means such as reincarnation, clones, or just being incorporeal.

What that effect has on social taboos such as same sex relations or cross species relations? Likely that the writers have leeway to write what they want without needing to adhere to reproductive limitations of other worlds that adhere to different limitations.

As for what the races find attractive, it’s going to be individual preference. It’s not always limited to racial norms and cultural norms change with time and various influence (such as living with said races when your cultures were before separated). Even going beyond that point, it has been established that each race tends to find certain attributes appealing such as intellect for Asura, prowess for Charr, etc. If a human or Norn exhibited vast intellect to impress even Asura, it may not be impossible to spark an even deeper obsession to a certain (possibly few) Asura to have witnessed it first hand.

Pyriel.4370:

Same sex relationships are one thing culturally, inter-species sexual relations would be extremely taboo regarding charr, asura and the other races.

Where does it say that? Or is that just your interpretation? I have no qualms with the races viewing such as taboo but then Tyria likely views ‘taboo’ differently than us. What is taboo to us, may just amount to “Uhg, that’s weird. ~goes back to drinking beer~” in Tyria.

Pyriel.4370:

Now let’s turn the topic back to how they could introduce a homosexual character in GW properly.

No, I think the topic of cross-species relations relates well to the topic at hand. If you’re accepting of same sex relations in GW2, then what are your objections to cross species relationships of any race combination? As long as they don’t make it at all common (just like I don’t think people want sex and lovey dovey to become too common) then what is the issue here?

Pyriel.4370:

They are both of the feline order and not massively genetically diverged. That is how they can mate and produce offspring. They are what humans would be to neanderthals genetically. Poor example there as I should also point out that Ligers, for example, happen almost exclusively in captivity where we encourage it, and they are born with genetic defects such as infertility, so via natural selection, lions/tigers who showed that behaviour of interspecies mating would have their genetics die out, while the other behaviours survive and carry on.

The reason we are so interested in the activity of dolphins is because they show weird aspects to their behaviour. Another poor example.

Charr x Human would be close to human and a talking lion that walks on it’s hind legs rather than lion x tiger.

For one, not all hybrid species happen in captivity. You even prove so yourself when you mention Neanderthals (whether we do or don’t have some of their dna has yet to be dismissed). New species come from various situations, from mutation to cross-breeding.

And you’ve yet to prove how any of these are bad examples. To qualify as cross-species, you simply have to be of a different species. That’s it.

And the various behaviors of dolphins aren’t only of captive ones. Keep searching.

I’d say keep trying to point out the difference between charr and humans but it’s getting repetitive as you continue to neglect the things they have in common.

Leo G.4501:

Pyriel.4370:

They are both of the feline order and not massively genetically diverged. That is how they can mate and produce offspring. They are what humans would be to neanderthals genetically. Poor example there as I should also point out that Ligers, for example, happen almost exclusively in captivity where we encourage it, and they are born with genetic defects such as infertility, so via natural selection, lions/tigers who showed that behaviour of interspecies mating would have their genetics die out, while the other behaviours survive and carry on.

The reason we are so interested in the activity of dolphins is because they show weird aspects to their behaviour. Another poor example.

Charr x Human would be close to human and a talking lion that walks on it’s hind legs rather than lion x tiger.

For one, not all hybrid species happen in captivity. You even prove so yourself when you mention Neanderthals (whether we do or don’t have some of their dna has yet to be dismissed). New species come from various situations, from mutation to cross-breeding.

And you’ve yet to prove how any of these are bad examples. To qualify as cross-species, you simply have to be of a different species. That’s it.

And the various behaviors of dolphins aren’t only of captive ones. Keep searching.

I’d say keep trying to point out the difference between charr and humans but it’s getting repetitive as you continue to neglect the things they have in common.

You missed my point massively when I talked about the ligers. It is that they are genetically close, charr and humans would be genetically different by gigantic chasms of differences in dna etc. It is a given, I don’t have to show you a genetic map of why tigers and lions match somewhat (even though the offspring is defective), they are both feline and similar size/similar build. Cross species can only properly occur with VERY similar animals, where they at least belong to very similar species, e.g. bear x bear, giant salamander x giant salamander, owl x owl. You won’t get a bear to mate with a lion unless you force it in captivity.

The reasons why it will never happen in GW2. Lore, Taboo, Real social attitudes from players and it’s allusions to beastiality.

I have forwarded you to a more appropriate thread regarding this earlier. Can this thread return to it’s original purpose or not? Or are you going to continue beating the same stick at perceived discrimination towards a fictional race?

Here are the links again;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Are-there-interracial-couples/first#post1443717

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Could-an-interracial-couple-reproduce

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Interracial-relationship

stupid question…but what’s with Norn (bear form) and Kodan. wasn’t there a Kodan that said that they had the same roots? that would make them genetically probably more close related than human and Norn. Especially since Norn originate from Tyria and Humans don’t.
i think it is much more likely for a norn to start a relationship with a Jotun or Kodan, than a Human.

not that it matters for a homosexual relationship.

Pyriel.4370:

You missed my point massively when I talked about the ligers. It is that they are genetically close, charr and humans would be genetically different by gigantic chasms of differences in dna etc.

You missed my point massively by forgetting why I brought cross-species sex and breeding into the discussion in the first place (mainly to exhibit it occurs).

And you missed my point massively way back when I specifically point out that how far apart genetically two species are doesn’t matter because I’m not trying to justify cross-bred offspring.

You also missed my point massively even further back when I specifically point out that a relationship doesn’t have to be sexual in the traditional sense to be intimate.

You also massively missed the other various points I made but you continue to lead us down the path of intercourse and physical attraction being the focal point of the discussion.

I’ve seen some ugly people with relatively attractive partners and wonder what the attractive person sees in their partner. Or how people swoon over traits I personally find unappealing, unattractive or downright disgusting. Love, attraction, arousal and even sex are far less simple and stilted than you could ever imagine (at least that’s what I think after seeing your various contributions to the discussion). But I’m not asking you to explore that or explain it or disprove it. I just ask you to look at the species similarities and pay particular attention to their minds.

The reasons why it will never happen in GW2. Lore, Taboo, Real social attitudes from players and it’s allusions to beastiality.

And that allusion is just false.

I have forwarded you to a more appropriate thread regarding this earlier. Can this thread return to it’s original purpose or not? Or are you going to continue beating the same stick at perceived discrimination towards a fictional race?

Here are the links again;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Are-there-interracial-couples/first#post1443717

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Could-an-interracial-couple-reproduce

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Interracial-relationship

For one, there is a policy against necro posting so linking 6+ month old threads that I’ve likely already read (been around the forums for almost 3 years, you know) doesn’t help many, and not me at all particularly. For two, giving me a link questioning if interracial couples can reproduce is boarderline an insult to me at the sheer density of your argument. Are you even listening to what I’m saying?

I am merely pointing you in the direction of more appropriate places to have a cross-species discussion.

Regarding relationships, my overarching point is that the precedent for breaking any kind of taboo is that these attractions happen naturally without mental illness. E.g. Homosexuality occurs naturally and is not a mental illness (I will get to that later), merely an orientation, though the most common attractions are governed by the ability to have healthy offspring (that can be governed by status symbol health such as large belly to promote you have access to a lot of food, as was such a trait in ancient times, or nowadays a ‘healthy’ svelte look which would signify good genetics, though these are also unconscious somewhat).

Sexuality and finding someone attractive enough to have an intimate relationship with constitutes a sexual relationship, not platonic. A platonic relationship can be intimate but not sexual, which is what you would describe, which Logan and Rytlock pretty much already have. It is a close relationship akin to blood brothers, i.e. no sexual attraction (which is where the genetics come in in regards to setting the precedent).

You seem to go down the sexual route, hence why I spoke about genetics and how attraction comes into it as typically for a species to find something attractive, they on a base level perceive it as something that they could have offspring with, this sets the precedent for emotional confirmation of why it is a good thing (if you don’t find something sexually attractive it can become rather difficult to have a sexual relationship), which is why Homosexuality, for example, is partly taking so long to become non-taboo in world culture as there are many who fall back on the offspring issue.

Logan and Rytlock for example would never have a sex drive for each other because of the difference in species, same as it would be Logan and Zojja, not to mention they all have platonic relationships, intimate but not sexual. So if you are talking about a relationship in which there is no sexual contact, that would be platonic, not a boyfriend or girlfriend as that would be a sexual relationship.

By saying that it is possible for a charr and human to have a sexual relationship you are saying that they could have sexual intercourse, rather than anything to do with personality, as it is the sexual intercourse that differentiates between platonic and sexual relationship.

As we must assume that humans and charr are close genetically or exact copies genetically to real world counterparts (homo sapiens and big cats), we can also assume that there would be no basis of common levels of attraction between the two races due to the above stated reasons thus no possibility of a healthy sexual attraction.

Hence it being most likely due to cultural, biological and lore-based reasons, that charr and humans are only capable of platonic relationships.

What is this argument even about at this point?

Pyriel.4370:

Logan and Rytlock for example would never have a sex drive for each other because of the difference in species, same as it would be Logan and Zojja, not to mention they all have platonic relationships, intimate but not sexual. So if you are talking about a relationship in which there is no sexual contact, that would be platonic, not a boyfriend or girlfriend as that would be a sexual relationship.

By saying that it is possible for a charr and human to have a sexual relationship you are saying that they could have sexual intercourse, rather than anything to do with personality, as it is the sexual intercourse that differentiates between platonic and sexual relationship.

As we must assume that humans and charr are close genetically or exact copies genetically to real world counterparts (homo sapiens and big cats), we can also assume that there would be no basis of common levels of attraction between the two races due to the above stated reasons thus no possibility of a healthy sexual attraction.

Hence it being most likely due to cultural, biological and lore-based reasons, that charr and humans are only capable of platonic relationships.

Okay I wanted to avoid repeating points but as has been said you seem to be ignoring them in your responses. Before I begin I must point out the only thing that matters is that two sentient beings are mutually attracted to each other. There is no “healthy” caveat there. Cultural reasons are irrelevant as characters are individuals.

Neither of us knows if Rytlock or less likely Logan have attraction for each other. Only the lore developers or definitive examples in the actual lore could define that. I went over that in length though.

Now again with the genetic and superficial stuff: all of the races, even if not 100% confirmed with the Asura, are more anatomically similar when it comes to physical compatibility than different. The superficial differences are minor in the grand scheme of things. Eyes, nose, ears, arms, legs, mouths, faces in general, as well as more intimate organs are all far more similar amongst them than different, and even if not directly confirmed for Asura the fact the Sylvari are outright confirmed to have physical relations with any of the other races by proxy makes the Asura compatible. Moreover even with alien biology it still would not matter. It is not as if two females at a glance would be compatible for example.

I shot down the bestiality thing before but will do so more specifically now. These are all sentient beings. The Charr could look exactly like a lion and it still would not be bestiality. Again there are numerous examples in scifi and fantasy of races of animal-like people and humans getting together. The Elder Scrolls, Star Trek, and Star Wars all had this happen without some big hullabaloo in the real world. I posted specific example earlier but I have to get going.

I think it is extremely relevant because your reasoning unintentionally I am sure mirrors the excuses made for people opposing same sex relationships.

“Cultural reasons are irrelevant as characters are individuals.”

Nope, culture shapes the individual and their base behaviours in the first place, and if culture didn’t matter, then there would be no basic precedent for any race’s behaviours, when we know there are;

The charr are typically aggressive, the Asura are typically arrogant, the humans are very much ‘human’, the norn are proud and the sylvari are curious.

Your own culture shaped who you were, if you were from Saudi Arabia, you would be unlikely to be so liberal as your culture would prevent a lot of it. In actual fact, the cultural differences between the races would be enough to prevent any kind of interbreeding beyond fringe attitudes.

“I think it is extremely relevant because your reasoning unintentionally I am sure mirrors the excuses made for people opposing same sex relationships.”

This is why I ignore your points somewhat. Because I have reasoning that is frank and realistic, apparently it is similar to homophobia -.-

“Before I begin I must point out the only thing that matters is that two sentient beings are mutually attracted to each other. There is no “healthy” caveat there. Cultural reasons are irrelevant as characters are individuals.”

Again, another reason why your points are not that strong. If you want to attribute realistic attraction and relationships and use real life examples for how interracial relationships can occur in GW2, you cannot just go ‘but all that biology stuff, that doesn’t matter.’

“The Charr could look exactly like a lion and it still would not be bestiality. "

Having sex outside of the human species in real life is extremely taboo, illegal and bestiality. That is likely to mirror human attitudes to human x charr/asura and more recently human x sylvari.

“I shot down the bestiality thing before but will do so more specifically now. These are all sentient beings.”

Not really, you assume that because sylvari have ‘working parts’ despite them being designed as such, that the charr and asura must be the same despite gigantic differences.

“Neither of us knows if Rytlock or less likely Logan have attraction for each other. Only the lore developers or definitive examples in the actual lore could define that.”

We know Logan is gunning for Jennah and Rytlock is pretty much blood legion tribune through and through.

Star Trek was fully of extremely humanoid hybrids, like EXTREMELY humanoid.

Star Wars, the hybrids there were select, again, extremely humanoid species, unless they genetically manipulated the subjects.

Elder Scrolls has many examples where mating is not possible due to too much genetic variation, as well as the lack of half-breeds as well as the society’s in the elder scrolls universe making such things extremely taboo.

Also there are huge discussions on the subject in all of those circles.

Anyways, I’m done with this topic, too much time wasted on a debate on a fictional circumstance that is theoretical on top of that. Hence my recent multiple attempts to drag the conversation back to the original thread context and subject matter as that is worth an in depth discussion on how it could be implemented.

~LeoG cracks fingers, puts on a pot of coffee and dons his debate cap~

Oh well, you asked for it. And I’m not being confrontational, mind you. Just precise.

Pyriel.4370:

I am merely pointing you in the direction of more appropriate places to have a cross-species discussion.

And as I stated before, they have a policy against necroposting and have a habit of locking them (possibly infracting the perp as well). I can’t be sure if the infraction action is the case anymore but mods definitely lock old threads when they crop up.

Pyriel.4370:

Sexuality and finding someone attractive enough to have an intimate relationship with constitutes a sexual relationship, not platonic. A platonic relationship can be intimate but not sexual, which is what you would describe, which Logan and Rytlock pretty much already have. It is a close relationship akin to blood brothers, i.e. no sexual attraction (which is where the genetics come in in regards to setting the precedent).

Try not to feign ignorance too hard. Obviously, the distinction I’m talking about isn’t the blood-brothers type of platonic relationship. There are ‘lover’ relationships that don’t involve sex, such as asexual relationships, or ones that can’t involve sex due to illness or disability. It’s your choice to continue to act ignorant of various circumstances but in doing so you’re going to hit a brick wall with the spectrum of orientations in this discussion (namely, asexual).

Pyriel.4370:

You seem to go down the sexual route, hence why I spoke about genetics and how attraction comes into it…

Incorrect, my friend. You are the culprit who went down the sexual route here:

Pyriel.4370:

Cross-species is a difficult one as we have no actual examples in modern life of other sentient and intelligent species to interact with and where a line would be drawn….though if you think logically norn x human maybe could work as both are overtly humanoid just different proportions but charr are feline and likely have feline sex organs…making procreation/sexual relations a bit awkward in regards to cross-species relationships with charr…

From any point before that, I don’t really want to go in a discussion on the viability of sexual intercourse across the different races of Tyria primarily because it’s moot. You won’t see it, hear/read about it or be confirmed through any official source if a Norn can bone a Charr or whatever other combo you think is incompatible. Because that, the only real focus that needs to be made is if someone from another race can find another appealing/attractive enough to form a romantically intimate relationship. No need to bother with biology or genetics because attraction is psychological.

~~~continued

Pyriel.4370:

So if you are talking about a relationship in which there is no sexual contact, that would be platonic, not a boyfriend or girlfriend as that would be a sexual relationship.

And what about relationships that abstain from sex until marriage? Is that not a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship? Or what about someone who is disabled or whose genitals are mutilated and cannot perform sexual intercourse? Or what about someone who does not want/like sex? Can these individuals not love or have romantic contact?

Pyriel.4370:

By saying that it is possible for a charr and human to have a sexual relationship you are saying that they could have sexual intercourse, rather than anything to do with personality, as it is the sexual intercourse that differentiates between platonic and sexual relationship.

I’m just going to go out and say it. Do not feign ignorance. A Charr can (most likely) have sexual intercourse with a human or Norn. You haven’t proven they cannot. If their mammalian biology has anything to say about it, then most likely it is very possible. That throws this point out the window. Can you disprove that it is physically impossible? No, you can’t and I don’t want you to try because I DON’T CARE! I don’t want to hear about that!! I want to talk about romantic relationships that can be depicted in a T-rated game!!

Pyriel.4370:

As we must assume that humans and charr are close genetically or exact copies genetically to real world counterparts (homo sapiens and big cats), we can also assume that there would be no basis of common levels of attraction between the two races due to the above stated reasons thus no possibility of a healthy sexual attraction.

Hence it being most likely due to cultural, biological and lore-based reasons, that charr and humans are only capable of platonic relationships.

Hmm, well what about people not attracted to appearances? Like I said before, I’ve seen some nice looking people who are partnered with some very unattractive people. It’s possible they find these types appealing because of their appearance or it could be for other reasons such as their attitude, their personality, their thought process or many other various circumstances outside of pure biology.

Then there are the weird cases. You can call it taboo but as I mentioned earlier (again, you side stepped that) that taboo issues are likely dealt with differently in Tyria. But for something to be taboo in the first place, it has to occur and it has to have an imposed moral infraction attached to it. You mentioned the biological infertility of such pairings being this infraction but same-sex relations are the exact same infraction. Cross-species isn’t the same as beastiality here either. So it’s in about as much gray as homosexuality. The difference is, this circumstance cannot occur in the real world but occurs often in other fantasy worlds. So where does your stigma lie, exactly? Or are you just helping to inform me that others will have a stigma?

Pyriel.4370:

“Cultural reasons are irrelevant as characters are individuals.”

Nope, culture shapes the individual and their base behaviours in the first place, and if culture didn’t matter, then there would be no basic precedent for any race’s behaviours, when we know there are;

Culture is only part of what shapes an individual. Environment is another and personal circumstance/experience is yet another. Just because a culture does or things one way doesn’t mean they all are hive minds UNLESS their race actually are hive mind to which they really don’t have a culture but a mental imprint of what they are meant to do or behave like.

In the instance of Tyria and their culture, things are changing! The races are all fighting together, learning from each other and making friends. More importantly, they are living nearer to each other, traveling more, exchanging knowledge and growing up together. You’ve got orphanages with multiple different races in them. That is effectively a NEW environment that could create a whole different set of values, cultures and thought processes

In response to Pyriel, if culture was that iron clad there would not be numerous people fleeing places like Saudi Arabia and countless more stuck there. Your culture argument is one that those governments make, but not one embraced by some hive mind. In addition for the Charr it would likely be more opposition due to the history of conflict. Modern Charr culture is not particularly concerned with what they do if it does not interfere with duty. There are always exceptions, but not all Charr are as extremely rigid as many seem to think, and there is a huge difference between outward and private conduct. For example the Charr do grieve in private, and it is the public display of weakness that is considered extremely taboo.

The Caitians and Bothans are just as animal-like as the Charr. Worst of all is trying to use TES to try and promote the frankly illogical “impossible” point, since there is an outright explicit scene between a Khajiit (and not of the more human-looking variety) and Dunmer (Dark Elf) that actually brings up his feline anatomy in TES lore books. The scene is censored in later games but the relationship exists all the same in said lore books. Plus there is the whole marriage thing in Skyrim. Also it bears mentioning that it was you who brought the mechanics of physical intimacy up, and your whole “they may be too different for anything to be possible” is stretching it big time when they are all outwardly similar in every manner you can see in game.

I get that you find it gross, and I am sure quite a few characters would too, but you are dismissing examples of where your logic is objectively wrong with a hand wave. Also I have acknowledged Logan’s attraction for Jennah numerous times. Something being taboo does not mean it would never happen either.

In short your bringing up Saudi Arabia and dismissing my TES example only weakens your argument, and while it is perfectly fine to view consentual physical relations between different sentient species as gross this does not mean it does not make any sense or that opposition to said unions would be any less oppressive in lore. In wildly shifting from genetic compatibility to superficial human-like looks you also show the logical weakness of your argument, and ignoring the examples in existing fiction that happened without mass public controversy does not help your point either.

And lastly I do feel this is on topic because yes the line of argument mirrors arguments about such freedoms. ArenaNet has said there are no current plans to show interracial relationships, but that does not mean they do not exist, and I will end this post by reiterating I think unrequited feelings would have their place in lore. It need not be nice neat pairings of characters.