Guild Wars 2

I have been mulling this over for some time.

The following we know about The Elder Dragons:
They have a cycle where they awaken every couple thousand years or so, go about draining all the magic in the world and killing all the sentient races before going to sleep again.
There exists 6 factions of Elder Dragons: Zhaitan (Undead), Primordus (Lava and rock), Jormag (Ice), Kralkatorrik (Crystal), Mordremoth (unrevealed jungle dragon) and Bubbles (unrevealed and unnamed Deep sea dragon).
Dragons can exist free of the control of their master (e.g. Glint).
Some Dragons can corrupt living things for minions (e.g. risen, icebrood, branded), while other create them in mimicry of living things (e.g. Destroyers).
There exist great differences between dragon factions, main similarities are that they are dragons and they eat magic, methods and minions differ.

Ok now for the idea:
What if the Dragons as a race were not originally evil and just another sentient race. What if the Elder dragons are in fact forces of intelligent power that have possessed the original dragons corrupting them and acting as magic feeding parasites to Tyria. The cycle is definitely a system to allow for sentient life and magic to recover to levels that they can once again feed on. Perhaps it was the spring of Arah that originally lured them to Tyria perhaps from another dimension such as the mists or another world.

What i base this idea on is the information in the “what we know paragraph”, that Zhaitan’s form is comprised of numerous dead dragons and the fact that the Forgotten were able to free Glint from Kralkatorrik’s control.

What do you think of my theory?

Sources:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glint

Two things: Zhaitan’s body has the appearance of being made of multiple dragons – never said to be dead either. Glint was just like any dragon minion, something supposedly once living that got turned into a dragon champion. Like the risen dragons.

Given that we were told many times that the Elder Dragons have “always been on Tyria” throughout dozens upon dozens of interviews with ANet before release, they didn’t come from another dimension or world or the like. So I doubt they are parasites. An interesting thought but would require more lore bending than the krait working for Scarlet.

when they say always on Tyria, they could just that the time they arrived on Tyria predates and records of knowledge, seeing as they predate human gods, wipe out all the living races each time the awake.

On the topic of Glint is described as being a dragon herself, and from what we see ingame dragons are on a class of their own compared to other dragon minions, they are not like the mouth of zhaitan or one of those Icebrood Norn that resemble an oakheart. I dont no beleive she became a dragon as a result of her corruption.

On the topic of Zhaitan you are right it does have the appearance of being made of multiple dragons, that and m any limbs, wings, heads and tails woven together. We already know that there exist undead that are constructed out of flesh (e.g. abominations).

When they say always on Tyria, it could just be that the time they arrived on Tyria predates all records and knowledge, seeing as they predate human gods, wipe out all the living races each time the awake.

Also when i say they are parasites i mean parasites in a lovecraftian Cthulhu way.

Jotun records make mention or multiple ED rises in their creation myths. This means an absolute minimum of being around for 30,000 years as their cycles seem to take 10,000 years per. But it’s most likely more than that. However, the developers don’t answer from an in-universe perspective so the only solutions are “they were born on Tyria” or “they arrived when Tyria formed” unless they want to retcon themselves.

As to Glint – keep in mind each dragon has dragon-shaped dragon champions. When I said risen dragons I did not mean mouths of zhaitan but Tequatl and co. Claw of Jormag is bones and ice so they’re questionable to have once been dragons and the Shatterers are rock and air. It should be noted.that Gkint’s body is made of crystal so we have no means of knowing that she was originally draconic. She could have been a drake or something such.

Edritch abomination would probably far more accurate because the way you worded it made it sound like you were theorizing that the Elder Dragons are creatures more akin to alien incorporeal parasites that made bodies of an ancient draconic race. At least that’s how I read it.

Either way, all evidence tells us that the Elder Dragons are fully Tyrian in nature. Jormag is the one and only Elder Dragon to have influence in the Mists, and only thanks to the Sons of Svanir.

To the paragraph on Edritch abominations. I was saying that there may of existed a sentient dragon race and that the Elder Dragons possessed, corrupted and took the already existing dragons for their own, even taking them for their own bodies. From example Zhaitan taking the bodies of the dragons he took and making them into his body, Jormag turning the dragon who’s body he took to ice (and the other dragons he took as minions to ice via his corruption) etc.

I suggested that they were Lovecraftian monsters as they seem very similar, which is why i suggested they came from outside tyria similar to the Great Old Ones.

Also while i suggested they are foreign it is not crucial to the theory, they could of equally existed from the beginning in some form and at a later stage possessed or gained the ability to. Perhaps they were originally a sentient race that through a master of magic or natural talents gained the ability to enslave and possess the bodies of the dragons.

On the topic of Dragons, i don’t not believe their form comes from corruption only their affliction (e.g. ice, crystal, undeath), looking at normal corrupted minions their corrupted forms are usually very similar to their uncorrupted e.g. icebrood, branded, risen. For this thought you would assume that dragons follow the same rule, having an uncorrupted form similar to their corrupted except without the corruption affliction such branding (turned to crystal), icebrood (turned to ice) or risen (their actual body dead and risen via a type of necromancy).

Jeff Grubb once said that “dragons are power” and that the Elder Dragons are draconic because they are so powerful. Dunno how literal that is meant to be but I do not think that there is really any reason to believe their bodies are not their own original bodies. If your theory was right, then they should be capable of shifting bodies and thus wouldn’t hibernate and awake but just move from body to body.

As to the comment of dragon shaped minions and all non-dragon minions looking like their original just afflicted… False. Some of the more powerful minions take on a more draconic appearance because of such – per the Art of Guild Wars 2 and in-game depictions. Particularly you have Risen Knights whom were humans but now have a draconic appearance. There’s also how the Mouths and Eyes of Zhaitan look so inhumane and so forth. The larger Icebrood Norn and the Icebrood Colossus as well are not like their original selves.

Honestly, only Glint, the Claws of Jormag, and Zhaitan’s dragons have a chance of having been dragons pre-corruption, but the chances of such is rather slim truth be told – the only thing of the Claw of Jormag which is seen to be corrupted “living being” is the legs which doesn’t say much. It isn’t impossible, especially if you take into account Bone Dragons who’s origins are unknown from gw1. But so far it’s not very supported since we have no clue was Glint was before hand and we have seen all three corrupted living creatures minions that we can easily say “they could be something other than a dragon”. Abominations could be the same process that Tequatl etc. are made.

“dragons are power” that quote i could also use to back my theory. i could claim that it refers to what possess them. Seems like you are really twisting the meaning of the phase to get “Elder Dragons are draconic because they are so powerful”. It probably it just another phase referring to cataclysmic (storm like) nature of the Eldar dragons.

On the topic of them switching bodies, the fact that they hibernate is not a counter argument for them switching bodies. It assumes they hibernate due to physical restraints of the body, rather than than like a bear in winter it hibernates because its food source is not longer available. Elder dragons hibernate to allow for their food (magic and sentient creatures) to again reach amounts that will allow for them to feast again.

On the rule of: Dragon shaped minions and all non-dragon minions looking like their original just afflicted, i would argue is true with few exceptions. For example the more extreme cases of icebrooding are not too dissimilar to their originals.
The Icebrood Norn that resemble an oakheart (which i referred to earlier in the argument) increase in size over its original form is not too great and the original form can still be seen except it has been twisted and deformed.
For risen knights they are very similar in size and shape to original human forms and abominations are most likely made from multiple corpses. On the topic of mouth and eye of zhaitan they seem to be constructs in which the souls of the Orrian royalty have been forced to possess and were most likely made from the flesh of the dragon itself given their connection.

The issue with your theory is that it is so far out there from known lore that it can be neither supported nor suggested.

The only thing I can counter of what you said, eye and mouths are clearly formerly humans that got twisted in shape. If they were flesh if the dragon, they wouldn’t be so humanoid. They’re more than just the souls of the royalty, but their bodies too.

^ they wouldn’t be or couldn’t be? Much of what the Dragon of Orr has done in Orr has been seemingly done out of mockery and contempt. Corrupting the Temples and Priests. Turning the entire line of Orrian royalty into the eyes and mouths of the dragon. Turning their giving them an almost humanoid form would be the height of mockery.

However you are right in that they were made from their own bodies.
King Reza: When the dragon rose, it plundered the royal tomb at Azabe Qabar and used the bodies of my family to create its most heinous servitors-the Eyes of Zhaitan.

However it still doesn’t rule out there could be flesh from the dragon used in their construction thus creating a link between them. Also the mouth of Zhaitan (see image) appears to be made of multiple bodies (all royal family members) similar to abomination. This further reenforces the idea that when corrupted their form is still vastly different in shape nor size to their original forms (with the exception of risen crafted from multiple corpses).

Also your idea that a dragon (lesser) could be created out of other races is also not supported nor suggested.

edit: added picture i mentioned but forgot to add.

The mouth is made of one body. I’m sure you’re looking at those small arms on the collars but if you look closely, you’ll see those arms are severed.

And I think the fact that abominations are made in the way they are and that there are no dragons beyond dragon champions are all corrupted from something, I think it is highly likely that Tequatl and co. Are made from sewn together corpses too. Granted, my evidence is the lack of evidence here which isn’t fullproof.

Nonetheless everything here is just pure speculation that cannot be proven nor debunked in much of any way and has too little support for either side. Continuing the debate is pointless because anything I would bring up you’d just go “well it can work still because…”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Given that we were told many times that the Elder Dragons have “always been on Tyria” throughout dozens upon dozens of interviews with ANet before release, they didn’t come from another dimension or world or the like. So I doubt they are parasites. An interesting thought but would require more lore bending than the krait working for Scarlet.

This is in fact incorrect. What we have been told, is that the Elder Dragon’s have been on Tyria longer than any of the other races that are currently present on Tyria. This includes the now effectively extinct (save for a Risen example) Giganticus Lupicus who themselves predate most of the other races of Tyria by a considerable margin.

Unfortunately everything we know about the Dragon’s is handed down to us from their last awakening back in circa 9,000 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar, which was at least 10,326 years ago. However, 10,000 years is NOT enough time for a planet to come into existence. Further, 10,000 years is definitely not enough time for multiple sentient species (Dwarves, Jotun, Forbidden, Seer’s, Mursat, etc…) to evolve on the same planet. And it certainly is not enough time for mystical cosmic forces known as Magic to coalesce into a form that is powerful enough to attract what amount to Draconic Eldritch Abominations. For one thing, Eldritch Abominations are so aloof that it would take magical forces on their own scale to attract them, and unfortunately Tyria really wouldn’t have possessed the kinds of power to attract what amounts to the collective forces of the Cthulu Mythos to their shores.

So either the Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, or there is an as of yet unidentified source of magic on Tyria that is far more powerful than even the Elder Dragons themselves!

If they are native, then they have been in this cycle of awakening, devouring, and sleeping for multiple eons beyond the 10,326 or so years that we have been aware of them!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jeff Grubb once said that “dragons are power” and that the Elder Dragons are draconic because they are so powerful.

I would also like to point out that we are seeing the world of Tyria through the eyes of the Developers. We are hearing what is being said in Tyria as it is translated to us via the Writers who are their own branch of the development team.

If however we were actually people who lived in Tyria, and were not ourselves… it is very possible that what we in our world are seeing as Dragon, and hearing as being interpreted as “Dragon” could actually be something entirely different in that world’s native language and understanding. It is very likely that the Developers chose to show the Elder Dragons as being Draconic Entities in our world, because in our world the entity in mythology that is most often associated with Chaos, Destruction, and raw Power, is in fact the Dragon. At least as it was conceptualized by the Europeans. If however they had opted to show the Asian perspective of the Dragons, then the Elder Dragons would be far more benevolent, though still just as powerful.

10,000 years is more than enough time for 5 sapient races (and multiple lesser races) to evolve in Tyria, because we are relatively certain that the current 5 evolved between the last awakening and now (minus humanity which is alien to Tyria). The common theory is that the magic which is infused with Tyria has helped to speed up the process of evolution, either that or all of the current sentient races were brought out of the Mists by various god figures and such.

As to the source of magic on Tyria, it is the Elder Dragons themselves. We’ve had it directly from Angel McCoy that the Elder Dragons seep out their magic as they sleep. This means that the magic of the Elder Dragons is the same as the magic of Tyria. So as they sleep slowly the world becomes more saturated with magic than they are, and thus they seem to awaken in order to consume again.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

This is in fact incorrect. What we have been told, is that the Elder Dragon’s have been on Tyria longer than any of the other races that are currently present on Tyria. This includes the now effectively extinct (save for a Risen example) Giganticus Lupicus who themselves predate most of the other races of Tyria by a considerable margin.

Er, no. They’ve said this as well, but it was also stated multiple times that they have always been here.

I mean hell, watch the teaser trailer – “Tyria. The dragons have always been here. […]” And that is not the only time it’s mentioned.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Unfortunately everything we know about the Dragon’s is handed down to us from their last awakening back in circa 9,000 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar, which was at least 10,326 years ago. However, 10,000 years is NOT enough time for a planet to come into existence. Further, 10,000 years is definitely not enough time for multiple sentient species (Dwarves, Jotun, Forbidden, Seer’s, Mursat, etc…) to evolve on the same planet. And it certainly is not enough time for mystical cosmic forces known as Magic to coalesce into a form that is powerful enough to attract what amount to Draconic Eldritch Abominations. For one thing, Eldritch Abominations are so aloof that it would take magical forces on their own scale to attract them, and unfortunately Tyria really wouldn’t have possessed the kinds of power to attract what amounts to the collective forces of the Cthulu Mythos to their shores.

Ahem

“As a matter of fact, I’m pursuing that line of inquiry now. In jotun stela writings, we’ve found references to a sextet of “swallowers” who are said to have *consumed the world several times over. *"

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Caterin

A line I mentioned before in this thread. This line proves the jotun had – at least mythological – knowledge of the Elder Dragons rising multiple times. This points to at minimum 2 previous awakenings before the one where their knowledge was mostly lost, as the last is extremely unlikely to be mythological and thus points to at least an age of 30,000 years for the Elder Dragons. There’s also Varra Skylark who mentions the jotun having learned how to predict the rising of the Elder Dragons via studying of the stars, which knowing how to do so means they had to have had knowledge of multiple points of references (thus multiple risings). If they figured it out in the past, they needed at least three points of references to create a pattern. Making, once more, the current rising at least the fourth rising of the Elder Dragons.

Narcemus.1348:

10,000 years is more than enough time for 5 sapient races (and multiple lesser races) to evolve in Tyria, because we are relatively certain that the current 5 evolved between the last awakening and now (minus humanity which is alien to Tyria). The common theory is that the magic which is infused with Tyria has helped to speed up the process of evolution, either that or all of the current sentient races were brought out of the Mists by various god figures and such.

It should be noted that according to jotun records, only five sapient races survived. There’s no mention of how many non-sapient races survived. The Elder Dragons don’t seem to care about corrupting rabbits and other small critters.

Narcemus.1348:

As to the source of magic on Tyria, it is the Elder Dragons themselves. We’ve had it directly from Angel McCoy that the Elder Dragons seep out their magic as they sleep. This means that the magic of the Elder Dragons is the same as the magic of Tyria. So as they sleep slowly the world becomes more saturated with magic than they are, and thus they seem to awaken in order to consume again.

Slightly false. While yes the magic is the same, the Elder Dragons are not the source. Magic in Tyria is cycled through – passing from the world to the Elder Dragons and back again. We don’t know where the origin is, if either. It is a “which came first, the chicken or the egg” kind of question.

Okay, I’ll admit that the last one is poorly worded. When I was talking about the source, my point was in commenting on the previous posters idea of a Tyrian source of magic which is equal or greater to that of the Elder Dragons. My point was to state that the Elder Dragons are the “source” in this regard as they are what leaks magic back into Tyria. My point was never to state that the Elder Dragons were the original source of magic in Tyria, just that they are what leaks magic back into the word, although I can see how what I stated sounds like the opposite.

As to my first paragraph, I was merely stating that the last 10,000 years has been enough time for what we see for races to evolve. Even going from frogs to Hylek would take much more then 10,000 years here on earth, so magic or Mists must be involved in some way.

Narcemus.1348:

10,000 years is more than enough time for 5 sapient races (and multiple lesser races) to evolve in Tyria, because we are relatively certain that the current 5 evolved between the last awakening and now (minus humanity which is alien to Tyria). The common theory is that the magic which is infused with Tyria has helped to speed up the process of evolution, either that or all of the current sentient races were brought out of the Mists by various god figures and such.

As to the source of magic on Tyria, it is the Elder Dragons themselves. We’ve had it directly from Angel McCoy that the Elder Dragons seep out their magic as they sleep. This means that the magic of the Elder Dragons is the same as the magic of Tyria. So as they sleep slowly the world becomes more saturated with magic than they are, and thus they seem to awaken in order to consume again.

EEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHH…………

Not so much.

The Asura evolved very deep in the earth of Tyria. Possibly even deeper than the Dwarves themselves did. As such they may or may not have been cognizant of the existence of the Elder Dragons the first time. In fact their very biological make up hints at the fact that they developed so deep beneath the surface of Tyria that the only other race that would have been in a similar situation to them would have been the Dredge.

The Norn may or may not have existed along side the other species of the time of the elder dragon’s last awakening. We do not know for certain if they did or not. What leads me to believe that they did exist back then, is that they are a largely nomadic tribe that is based very heavily on Nordic Culture. And although the Nordic Societies had a written language, it’s written form did not develop until the second century common era in what was known as the Proto-Norse Language. In fact, the predecessor Language to Norse (which is also the predecessor Language for many European Languages, and some Middle-Eastern and Asian Languages), did not even HAVE a written language. We only know about it because of similarities in the modern languages that are descended from it. Indo-European is not a written language.

As such it is highly likely that the Norn existed alongside of the other species at that time, but they probably did not have a written or codified language at the time. They were probably a fairly primitive species when compared to the Mursaat, Dwarves, or Forbidden.

As for the Sylvari, they didn’t really evolve in the traditional sense of the world. So that can’t really be used as an argument for or against them.

And the Charr definitely would have existed at that time, seeing as how they were aware of the Destroyers and the Titans sufficiently enough by the time of the Searing that their Shamans were able to consider them Gods. Even though by the time of the Searing the two groups of beings were not yet active in the world…

I also want to point out, that while the Jotun only referenced 5 sentient races as surviving, they may in fact of only been aware of 5 sentient races at the time.

There are at least THREE Continents on the planet that Guild Wars takes place on. The Elder Dragons only to our knowledge appear to have any interest in the continent of Tyria. We therefore do not know whether the Elder Dragons have duplicates on any of the other continents or not.

That said, what happens if we suppose that the Norn are not originally native to Tyria?

Also the Asura are a Deep Subterranean Race. They are not limited by the same restrictions of movement across continents that other races are. They could be from underneath the middle of the ocean for all I care, and still have been perfectly content to have existed and be sentient back then and have survived. You see the kinds of predicaments you come to when you assume that the Jotun, a Terrestrial Race, were somehow Omniscient in regards to all the other continents on the planet, and all the other races?

Heck, the Jotun might not even have considered the Charr of that time period as being Sentient? I mean look at Gwen’s attitude towards the Charr in Guild Wars 1… she considered them basically no better than filthy animals. How is it then that they were able to build the Black Citadel?

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

~snip to avoid max message length~

The charr’s recognition of the Destroyers as gods came because of the Flame Legion’s need to seize control of a bad situation. The human NPC’s killed their gods and they needed something to keep the charr under their control so they found these new fiery beings that were very strong and chose them. No member of the flame legion every appeared to truly think them gods. They just hoped to use them as a means to an end. Because of this, there is no proof that they existed prior. We could do what if’s all day, but the lore as we have it states otherwise. And I have to remind you that this lore comes from an extremely ancient and long lived race. If theory is correct they have survived as a race/civilization for 10’s of thousands of years, so you would think they would know a bit about the world, even if they don’t know everything.

As for Asura, pretty sure Primordus would have made the depths of tyria a very inhospitable territory. Not to say that primitive asura couldn’t survive, but it’s not very likely. But anyways, the devs have spoken many times that the ED’s cycle included sleep, awaken, wipe all life, sleep, rinse, repeat. Some life may have survived, but at the very least you can’t disprove the notion that magic may have adverse effects of evolution in a world like this.

it would be very stupid to assume that the Elder Dragons would be capable of wiping out all life PERIOD.

It is far more reasonable to assume that they were simply wiping out the most dominant species on Tyria in a given period. And you still haven’t answered the question of the other continents. As far as we know the Elder Dragons have only ever had any influence on the Continent of Tyria. To the best of our knowledge both Elona and Cantha have always been free from the presence of the Elder Dragons.

As such, making broad sweeping generalizations (which is actually a logical fallacy) such as “wipe all life” will not fly, when it is 90% likely that anyone who wanted to survive the devastation caused by the Elder Dragons simply had to flee to Cantha or Elona before all mode of transportation between the Continents was wiped out completely.

Heck, species that were native to Cantha and Elona originally may in fact have been entirely unaffected by the Elder Dragons previous rises to prominence!

And for all we know, the Norn and Asura could very easily be such species that are native to Cantha and Elona. All we know is that one of those two Continents is currently under the control of Palawo Joko(sp?) and the other is inhospitable to non-humans. That doesn’t tell us what the two continents were like 10,000+ years ago. In fact Elona’s calendar doesn’t even begin until 5 years before the first Human Dynasty was established in 200 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar. And the Canthan Calendar doesn’t begin until 510 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar. Yet it would be stupid to assume that neither of those Continents existed until those dates. For reference, Giganticus Lupicus went extinct ostensibly at the hands of the Elder Dragon Minions in the year 10,000 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar.

Who’s to say all the ED only affect Tyria…. From Quaggen, Krait and Karka we know that there is a Deep sea elder dragon (lovingly nicknamed by the gw2 community as bubbles which they fled north into Tyria to avoid.

We know the DSD is in ocean south of Orr as the Karka had to avoid orr and the undead on their way to Southshore (btw did i mention that Karka are immensely old and have experienced the dragons before) from the developers.

If you look on a map http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/a/a2/Tyria_world_fan_map_%28freestyle%29.jpg where the DSD would be located would be at its most northern possibility it would be west of Elona, and at most Southern possibility north of Cantha. How can we be sure the other continents are unaffected or if they do not have Demons (hic dragons) of their own…..

btw Konig are you Konig of the wiki?

Faustas.5243:

Who’s to say all the ED only affect Tyria…. From Quaggen, Krait and Karka we know that there is a Deep sea elder dragon (lovingly nicknamed by the gw2 community as bubbles which they fled north into Tyria to avoid.

We know the DSD is in ocean south of Orr as the Karka had to avoid orr and the undead on their way to Southshore (btw did i mention that Karka are immensely old and have experienced the dragons before) from the developers.

If you look on a map http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/a/a2/Tyria_world_fan_map_%28freestyle%29.jpg where the DSD would be located would be at its most northern possibility it would be west of Elona, and at most Southern possibility north of Cantha. How can we be sure the other continents are unaffected or if they do not have Demons (hic dragons) of their own…..

Okay, Elona and Tyria are technically the same continent by virtue that we can see the beginning of the Elon River which flows straight through the Continent of Elona just to the south of the Crystal Desert on the World Map of Guild Wars 2.

That said, it is possible that Kralkatorrik’s domain once would have extended down into Elona due to the fact that the Crystal Desert and Elona are essentially extensions of each other in many regards. That said, it is currently unknown whether Kralkatorrik is active in Elona. It is probable that he/she is not. I doubt that Palawa Joko would cede control of Elona to an unquantifiable entity such as the Elder Dragon, especially after how much work he put into gaining what control he has over Elona.

Not to mention the fact that Palawa Joko is one of the few people in the Guild Wars Universe whom I would feel comfortable with saying “He could probably Solo an Elder Dragon.”

As for Cantha, seriously, you are talking like the only ocean that exists in the world of Guild Wars is the ocean that houses Orr, and the Ring of Fire Archipelago. Fact is that there is a perfectly viable northern access point to what may or may not be the Unending Ocean in the form of Janthir Bay. Granted you probably have to go through the Jungle Dragon’s or Jormag’s domain to get to it, but it does exist. Additionally the Deep See Dragon is only ONE Dragon. And as near as I can tell it, and it’s minions are aquatic creatures. Meaning they cannot fly.

This means that the airships moored in Lion’s Arch ostensibly could bypass the worst of the Deep Sea Dragon’s minions!

Well at least i can imagine Zhaitan and palawa joko’s undead armies warring at the north of Elona, as Zhaitans teritory at its height reached that far. “In the height of his reign, his domain reached from the Ring of Fire islands to the northern borders of Elona, to the pockets along the northern shores of the Sea of Sorrows. " http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zhaitan

I cant say with any certainty that Cantha is affected by the Dragons but at least Elona would be suffering war to its north on 2 fronts with forces of Zhaitan on one front and Kral on another fighting the armies of Joko.

Also to your statement whether Palawa Joko could fight an Elder Dragon, i would agree that a near impossible to kill Lich like him could handle the Elder dragons armies and champions but not if they came out themselves in force. Even he could not withstand a Elder Dragon in combat, i can imagine they could even get around his near immortality by consuming his magic or converting him.

possible, but all he would really have to do is hang back and unleash hordes of Margonites on them. Unless of course I am very much mistaken as to who has default control over the Margonites now that Abaddon is effectively deceased?

As far as I am aware the Margonites would essentially be immune to corruption wouldn’t they?

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

It is far more reasonable to assume that they were simply wiping out the most dominant species on Tyria in a given period. And you still haven’t answered the question of the other continents. As far as we know the Elder Dragons have only ever had any influence on the Continent of Tyria. To the best of our knowledge both Elona and Cantha have always been free from the presence of the Elder Dragons.

This is quite false.

As Faustas already stated, the deep sea dragon in THIS awakening cycle has already forced out four deep sea races which are far enough away from Tyria for only one of them to have been known to landdwellers (as far as we know at least) since the last awakening cycle – that being the krait, with the karka only seen since the last awakening cycle. Thus far there are only seven races known to have survived the last ED rise: jotun, mursaat, Seer, Forgotten, dwarves, karka, and djinn. The last two are not native to Tyria and the fact that they’ve seen the plight of the Elder Dragons shows that not only is the ED threat not local to continental Tyria, but the jotun didn’t know of non-continental Tyrian races surviving.

Furthermore, Jormag awoke north of continental Tyria, and we know that Zhaitan was not always in Arah (as the Forgotten had freed Glint there before the dragons slumbered). We know 2 of 6 dragons awoke outside of continental Tyria and it’s likely that the other four were elsewhere with possible exception of Kralkatorrik during the last rise. Jormag and Primordus certainly had their influence affecting Tyria but we’ve seen little evidence to support them being present there during the last rise. That is, until the end – with all the magic in the world being absorbed into the Bloodstone, it’s quite logical to believe that the Elder Dragons would centralize on the continent of the Bloodstone’s location even if they were originally widespread.

There’s also evidence to believe that the tengu and krait had survived the last ED rise. And it should be noted that there’s dwarven and Forgotten presence on Cantha in the ancient past – with those two races having fought the Elder Dragons, it wouldn’t be surprising if there was Elder Dragon influence on Cantha during the last rise, and that’s where the Deldrimor-looking relics of Aurios Mines come from, and why the Forgotten had people there when humans arrived.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

As such, making broad sweeping generalizations (which is actually a logical fallacy) such as “wipe all life” will not fly, when it is 90% likely that anyone who wanted to survive the devastation caused by the Elder Dragons simply had to flee to Cantha or Elona before all mode of transportation between the Continents was wiped out completely.

Glint and the jotun are the ones who stated to us that they wipe out all life. Glint has likely seen the cycle happening more than just the previous. While they certainly most likely didn’t wipe out all life, as we know that life manages to continue afterwards, they have wiped out all civilized life for sure. The last awakening cycle being the exception.

Think of the Reapers from Mass Effect, and how when they return every 50,000 years they only wiped out galactic civilizations. They allowed still-primitive life to thrive. Though I doubt that the Elder Dragons “allow” the more primitive races to survive, they most likely go thinking “I should wipe out all the rats in the world, just to be sure!”

And I’ll just throw your argument back at you:

Making broad sweeping generalizations (which is actually a logical fallacy) such as “Elder Dragons only affected continental Tyria” will not fly, when it is 90% likely that anyone who had survived the devastation caused by the Elder Dragons by fleeing to Cantha or Elona, such as the Forgotten presence in Cantha, would have kept records of having done so.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Heck, species that were native to Cantha and Elona originally may in fact have been entirely unaffected by the Elder Dragons previous rises to prominence!

Djinn.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Yet it would be stupid to assume that neither of those Continents existed until those dates. For reference, Giganticus Lupicus went extinct ostensibly at the hands of the Elder Dragon Minions in the year 10,000 BE of the Mouvellian Calendar.

We actually know – as I have said – of non-human presence prior to those dates. And on continental Tyria too. Thing is, we don’t have their histories.

And I would say it is fallicious to believe that the norn and/or asura are likely native to Elona or Cantha when there’s no point of evidence for either. At least there’s evidence to support the asura having once settled on the Tarnished Coast before being forced out of the Depths of Tyria by Primordus.

Faustas.5243:

btw Konig are you Konig of the wiki?

Yes.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

That said, it is possible that Kralkatorrik’s domain once would have extended down into Elona due to the fact that the Crystal Desert and Elona are essentially extensions of each other in many regards. That said, it is currently unknown whether Kralkatorrik is active in Elona. It is probable that he/she is not.

Unlikely in this rise. Previous rise, possible due to Glint’s presence in Arah back then and the presence of Kralkatorrik’s crystallized blood in the Crystal Desert. But in this rise, unlikely. He awoke in the Blood Legion Homelands and only flew south in 1320. Now 6 years have past, but nothing has been heard from since. Furthermore, The Movement of the World’s only mention of the ‘desert dragon’ (the Movement having been written prior to any ED’s name sans Primordus was revealed to players) is that it blocks access to Elona. Zhaitan’s army, however, is stated to have been warring on the northern Elonian border.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

As for Cantha, seriously, you are talking like the only ocean that exists in the world of Guild Wars is the ocean that houses Orr, and the Ring of Fire Archipelago. Fact is that there is a perfectly viable northern access point to what may or may not be the Unending Ocean in the form of Janthir Bay. Granted you probably have to go through the Jungle Dragon’s or Jormag’s domain to get to it, but it does exist. Additionally the Deep See Dragon is only ONE Dragon. And as near as I can tell it, and it’s minions are aquatic creatures. Meaning they cannot fly.

This means that the airships moored in Lion’s Arch ostensibly could bypass the worst of the Deep Sea Dragon’s minions!

Two things:

Firstly, we outright know that the Quaggans of the Unending Ocean came from the south. Same for the karka. If the DSD was up near Janthir Bay – which was an original theory of mine – then they would have been fleeing from there, not through the Straits of Malchor. They had to fight through Risen forces to flee from the DSD – if they came from the north you’d be complete idiots to go that way rather than further south or west!

Most likely, the DSD is west of the Battle Isles – off of the fan-made maps posted above. Reason I say this is that between Tyria and Cantha lies the Battle Isles, and between Cantha and Elona lies shallow reefs (Between the northwest coast of Cantha and the southern rim of Elona, a deadly sea is troubled by sudden storms and cyclones, hidden reefs, and dangerous sea creatures.) and we know that the DSD awoke in the deepest parts of the ocean – neither place would count as such unless the reefs were in fact krait Deeps since the krait once lived in the deepest trenches of the ocean as well, though this seems unlikely.

Secondly, those airships are not actually moored in Lion’s Arch. That was a non-canonical scene created solely for the sake of a teaser trailer.

Faustas.5243:

Well at least i can imagine Zhaitan and palawa joko’s undead armies warring at the north of Elona, as Zhaitans teritory at its height reached that far.

No need to imagine, as said above, tis a fact according to the Durmand Priory. That’s where the wiki line comes from, in fact.

Faustas.5243:

I cant say with any certainty that Cantha is affected by the Dragons but at least Elona would be suffering war to its north on 2 fronts with forces of Zhaitan on one front and Kral on another fighting the armies of Joko.

Nothing implies Kralkatorrik is fighting Elona.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

possible, but all he would really have to do is hang back and unleash hordes of Margonites on them. Unless of course I am very much mistaken as to who has default control over the Margonites now that Abaddon is effectively deceased?

As far as I am aware the Margonites would essentially be immune to corruption wouldn’t they?

After Abaddon’s death, Mallyx took control of the Margonite forces and was using them to usurp Kormir. This is the Domiain of Anguish elite mission in GW1. As far as we know, all Margonites were killed off, re-imprisoned in the Realm of Torment, or very very rarely defected like The Lost and Apostate. There should be no more Margonites in the world of Tyria.

And nothing would indicate the Margonites being immune to corruption. I don’t know why you even began to believe such.

If I had to guess, I’d say that dragons were the original inhabitants of Tyria, and the Elder Dragons were to them what the gods are to humans — they look like them, they may have even used to be them and retain some tendency to think like them, but in a certain sense, they’re sentient magic.

I’d also guess that the dragons (not the Dragons) were just flesh and blood and scale creatures — sapient, magic using dinosaurs. The appearance of the Claw of Jormag and Shatterer is probably due solely to the corruption of the Elder Dragons. Human gods can do that too, as happened with Margonites. My guess is that the Elder Dragons are what happens when all of your gods are Abaddon. Though if they were going for pure bizarro gods, then the sixth dragon would be rebellious and usually kind to smaller man. Maybe it was the one that taught the forgotten how to free Glint and save the survivors of the last cycle, which could explain why the forgotten like to hang out in the realm of secrets. Aside from the name.