Guild Wars 2

I think we all remember the post by ANet back around the time of the Lost Shores living story stating that Zhaitan had been defeated. This was an important post as most of the community, especially the RPers have run with this as the current state of the world.

At PAX, though, myself and other lore-fiends heard directly from Angel that Zhaitan is not, as we have been told, actually dead. I am wondering if it is possible to get official confirmation on this?

And if Zhaitan is confirmed as not-yet-dead how are we, as a community, going to approach this from an RP standpoint?

I have not heard that ArenaNet had confirmed Zhaitan is not dead.

Mind you, defeated != dead, so it Zhaitan’s still alive then it’s not technically a retcon or some such.

However, in an interview with TowerTalk, Scott makes it sound like Zhaitan is, while Angel makes it sound like Zhaitan isn’t. Kind of a “can be this, can be that” I think. Aka ArenaNet’s dancing around the bush with the state of the personal story compared to the living story’s placement with "the LS happens with where the player is during the PS (despite the entire Aetherblades’ existence of airships and Tequatl’s update requiring the Pact to exist and be invading Orr at the moment).

It’s all really hard to say. Honestly, I’m thinking ArenaNet should have released the PS chapters in content patches (so they could improve that later stuff and make it feel like it’s taking more time to do them then the hours we use to play), as it seems like they’re now wanting the LS to happen alongside rather than after the PS. With Dragon Bash on being from Forging the Pact onward. It’s hard to say, really, but it’s too late to do such.

Honestly, I wish they’d stop with their dancing around the chronological timeline kitten. It’s just making people scratch their heads in utter confusion – which is not the good kind of head scratching (the good kind is when people are puzzled over a mystery, not trying to figure out unclarity).

Yeah. For those of us that RP, not knowing forces us to either ignore what’s going on and has happened or forces us to decide as a community. A solid official answer would make this soooooooo much easier.

And the chat with Angel was at PAX and wasn’t recorded, so there is no “official” confirmation.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yeah. For those of us that RP, not knowing forces us to either ignore what’s going on and has happened or forces us to decide as a community. A solid official answer would make this soooooooo much easier.

Well, even though the meta is that defeated != dead, in lore defeated = dead until proven otherwise. In a lore-friendly setting, every character would have his or her own interpretation of what happened – and unless you’re playing a Mary Sue, it’s okay for your character to have been mistaken.

I know my characters, at least, will be more “oh sweet mother of Lyssa it’s back!” rather than “lalala I knew it all along” if ANet decides to bring Zhaitan back for round two.

Jigain.8231:

Well, even though the meta is that defeated != dead, in lore defeated = dead until proven otherwise. In a lore-friendly setting, every character would have his or her own interpretation of what happened – and unless you’re playing a Mary Sue, it’s okay for your character to have been mistaken.

I know my characters, at least, will be more “oh sweet mother of Lyssa it’s back!” rather than “lalala I knew it all along” if ANet decides to bring Zhaitan back for round two.

This is a bit more problematic, though, for those that RP charas that have a greater chance of knowing. Scholars, soldiers, and the like that would actually have been in Orr or Arah.

And there is a difference between some people being mistaken and every sentient alive in Tyria being mistaken.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

With Dragon Bash on being from Forging the Pact onward. It’s hard to say, really, but it’s too late to do such.

By Dragon Bash the Pact invasion’s already in Cursed Shore or beyond. Among the DB detractors, there was a Pact soldier who’d gotten injured on the Penitent Path. Then after the bombing, he went on to say that while he still hated the idea of DB, he would ditch the perpetrators in the filthiest open graves of Cursed Shore – alive.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Jigain.8231:

Well, even though the meta is that defeated != dead, in lore defeated = dead until proven otherwise. In a lore-friendly setting, every character would have his or her own interpretation of what happened – and unless you’re playing a Mary Sue, it’s okay for your character to have been mistaken.

I know my characters, at least, will be more “oh sweet mother of Lyssa it’s back!” rather than “lalala I knew it all along” if ANet decides to bring Zhaitan back for round two.

This is a bit more problematic, though, for those that RP charas that have a greater chance of knowing. Scholars, soldiers, and the like that would actually have been in Orr or Arah.

And there is a difference between some people being mistaken and every sentient alive in Tyria being mistaken.

I’d say that depends entirely on how they do it. Obviously I’m not an ArenaNet writer (though I’m certainly available, wink wink, nudge nudge, gimme a call Colin), but one of the more obvious solutions that’d be a perfect workaround would be that Zhaitan’s spirit/soul/essence/whateveryouwanttocallit possesses another Elder Dragon, or the remains of one. As far as I know, there is not a single person (again discarding Mary Sues) who could with 100% accuracy detect something like that.

Large scale deception isn’t something that’s never been done before. Every sentient being in Tyria being caught unawares isn’t impossible, or even improbable.

Again, though, entirely depending on how ANet decides to implement it. If at all.

So we’re not really sure if Zhaitan is dead or not? Why can’t he be neither? Cue the reanimated inquest-controlled Zhaitan remains!

that would be a very sad way to go around it especially since with so many failed attempts it would probably just go berserk on them, yes they were able to control some corrupted minions but an elder dragon is on a whole other level. My theory was that Zhaitan as the dragon of death has some control over his spirit and could possess one of his minions (cough teqautl cough) or that one of his minions would take his mantle and become the next “Zhaitan”.

I honestly think a game that didn’t have a starting story and just built up with general updates (not strictly adhering to a specific schedule) could be an awesome thing. I think the issue arises when you have both a set in stone story and a flexible story and they try to live in the same world. In other words, I wish they would have thought about the living story before the original creation of the game. It could have been much more interesting, in a way. Not to say that there wouldn’t have been issues to iron out, but still…

(Skimmed most of this thread)
Anyway, I was just in Sparkfly Fen, and Warmaster Narru ambiently comments “At least this locale is better than Southsun Cove”. Connecting the dots, Southsun Cove confirmed Zhaitan’s death (or defeat, but I think you’re arguing semantics and trying to make him be alive still), so Tequatl getting the new powers and such is after Zhaitan’s death as well.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

(Skimmed most of this thread)
Anyway, I was just in Sparkfly Fen, and Warmaster Narru ambiently comments “At least this locale is better than Southsun Cove”. Connecting the dots, Southsun Cove confirmed Zhaitan’s death (or defeat, but I think you’re arguing semantics and trying to make him be alive still), so Tequatl getting the new powers and such is after Zhaitan’s death as well.

No. I’m going off of what I heard directly from Angel at PAX. She stated that Zhaitan is not dead. She stated that the person saying that he was dead prior to Lost Shores was incorrect and should not have said that.

Now I’m trying to recall- who was it that said that Zhaitan was dead?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Now I’m trying to recall- who was it that said that Zhaitan was dead?

Original official post here.

“dead” was never used, technically. And yes, Mystic, it is semantics, but Anet always ensures they don’t lock themselves into a specific story path – so I’d be surprised if Angel said “Zhaitan is alive” rather than their current “it depends on where the players are in their own PS.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“dead” was never used, technically. And yes, Mystic, it is semantics, but Anet always ensures they don’t lock themselves into a specific story path – so I’d be surprised if Angel said “Zhaitan is alive” rather than their current “it depends on where the players are in their own PS.”

While right now the Personal Story may be at one point or another in the timeline, the Living Story is happening now. So at this point in the Living Story, either the Personal Story is done or it isn’t. The Living Story isn’t mutable. It happens to everyone at the same time. It is a fixed time point.

As to whether or not she said it … well I heard it, but you can believe that or not if you wish. I do think it’d be nice to get an official answer, though, to confirm so everyone can be on the same page.

I think as a community we should conclude that LS is happening after the PS. PS can be treated as a prequel or something. LS is where the main thing will be.

I hate PS in general. I don’t find them fun at all because its single player. I much rather do World Events. Even dungeons are better than PS.

GW1 never had PS. I don’t know why they bothered with it. I say forget about any future PS, and change them all into World Events and dungeons.

CHIPS.6018:

I think as a community we should conclude that LS is happening after the PS. PS can be treated as a prequel or something. LS is where the main thing will be.

I hate PS in general. I don’t find them fun at all because its single player. I much rather do World Events. Even dungeons are better than PS.

GW1 never had PS. I don’t know why they bothered with it. I say forget about any future PS, and change them all into World Events and dungeons.

I think it’d be nice to get an official word as we’ve heard conflicting things from official sources. Well … some of us have, anyways.

And GW1 had a PS as well. That was the missions. It’s just that they aren’t required to progress through the map in GW2.

And nothing says the PS has to be solo. In fact I always grouped up with friends that were needing the Orr storyline done just because the battles become a little bit more epic than normal with 2-3 players in stead of 1

This actually easier from an RP standpoint. Right now, we think zaitan is dead. Whether he turns up later doesn’t disrupt current RP thought.

The Pact took Zhaitan downm shot him with asura space magic, and he fell to a thick greenish fog in the middle of Arah. This battle happened in the sky. The official word would be that the Dragon is down, but im sure the Pact would do everything in their power to comb through Arah looking for definite proof of Zhaitans death, yet unsuccessful. The temples still have their corruption only cut off every now and then, and the Gates of Arah are still contested most of the times, making the search for Zhaitans corpse difficult.

The thing that irks me about this is, based off of what OP said, is that what Angel said can be read both ways. Zhaitan isn’t dead could mean we didn’t finish the job or it could mean he’s not dead yet due to the timeline of the PS not being complete in-universe at the part of the timeline the LS is currently in.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“dead” was never used, technically. And yes, Mystic, it is semantics, but Anet always ensures they don’t lock themselves into a specific story path – so I’d be surprised if Angel said “Zhaitan is alive” rather than their current “it depends on where the players are in their own PS.”

While right now the Personal Story may be at one point or another in the timeline, the Living Story is happening now. So at this point in the Living Story, either the Personal Story is done or it isn’t. The Living Story isn’t mutable. It happens to everyone at the same time. It is a fixed time point.

As to whether or not she said it … well I heard it, but you can believe that or not if you wish. I do think it’d be nice to get an official answer, though, to confirm so everyone can be on the same page.

How many times do they have to say Zhaitan is “defeated” at this point in the Living Story before people stop bringing it up as if it’s unclear at this point? The post you linked says it, the Tower Talk interview says it, it’s clear now that the Personal Story has ended and the Living Story is a continuation of the plot, not something that takes place at the same time as the Personal Story.

Is it that difficult for people to use suspension of disbelief and recognise that if you create a new character today and partake in Living Story content while completing your Personal Story, the events of the Personal Story are “historical”? When I played GW1 and made a new character, I would often go to Nightfall and Eye of the North first because I could obtain heroes there. The events of Nightfall (as I understand them) take place after Prophecies and Factions (Shiro and the Khilbron are both present). The events of Eye of the North certainly take place after them. It’s possible to kill the Great Destroyer in EotN before taking down Shiro. It’s possible to complete the War in Kryta before defeating Abaddon. Just because you can do something in a different order in the game does not make them on the same time line. Why would that not apply to GW2?

I don’t understand how what Angel supposedly said at PAX could be seen as contradictory. I haven’t seen anyone say for certain that Zhaitan is “dead”. Don’t dismiss it as semantics – “dead” and “defeated” are two different words and they both have different meanings. Matthew writes defeated, in Tower Talk I think I remember Scott saying defeated and if Angel said he’s not dead she’s not contradicting that. What if they are simply leaving it open for Zhaitan to awaken 1,000 years from now? Isn’t that how the dragons are supposed to function in the first place, they sleep then wake then sleep again?

People have got to stop perpetuating the idea that the Living Story takes place at the same time as the Personal Story. This thread links to Matthew stating otherwise, past threads reference Tower Talk where Scott states otherwise. You guys are turning into global warming sceptics.

Thing is, Shiren… They haven’t said it once in the living story. And with one dev post exception, it has all been “if you defeated him then he is defeated for you.” There really hasn’t been a definitive “he is dead” especially since defeated doesn’t mean dead – we defeated Canach, twice, for example.

Scott’s statement in the TowerTalk interview can be taken a number of ways, really.

And the reason it would not apply to gw2 is because ArenaNet had said when initiating Flame and Frost that the design will be to avoid paradoxes when one plays through the LS first as for them the Pact and such may not have been formed – this and how Scott worded his statement of pre or post Zhaitan indicate that they’re wanting parallel storylines… But they are making such paradoxes present regardless.

And that is where suspension of disbelief is getting way too hard…When we defeated it couldn’t we have checked his body ? Did we really have to rush to Fort Trinity to have a party instead of making sure that it was really dead ?

I don’t have any problems with time and distances. But things like that ? That’s really dumb.

From a RP perspective, it’s okay to believe that Zhaitan is dead even if the players know or suspect otherwise. If you and others have been RPing that your characters are sure that Zhaitan is long gone, then keep on doing it. If he’s revealed to still be alive later on it will be a nasty shock for your characters, regardless of what the players might know or believe.

Remember to always keep IC and OOC knowledge separate, and you’ll have no problems.

^ What valena said.