Guild Wars 2

Had a thought this morning – If all five major Tyrian races went to war against each other, wouldn’t the humans be the first to collapse? They’re surrounded on all sides by various enemies. Their government is politically weak, and various elements would happily exploit any fracture even to the race’s detriment. And they’re completely outpaced in technology (both magical and scientific) by other races.

What do you think? In this scenario, are the humans doomed? How do you think it would play out?

It would depend on if everyone is fighting the humans at once. Sylvari are generally peaceful, but if they were to attack a race it would likely be the Asura, as they were the ones to imprison and analyze Sylvari at the beginning of their race. Charr might have the biggest beef with humans given their history, but Hoelbrak is in the way. Norn are born and raised warriors; I’d say their culture and magical connection to the Spirits could rival Charr technology. Charr would logically attack the Norn first. Assuming the Norn win, the Charr taken out means they will only have an enemy on one side (to the west) while their other side (to the east) is enemy free.

Humans are fairly out of the way with Divinity’s Reach being so far north. With their political unrest I could see them trying to make alliances with either the Sylvari or the Norn. The Sylvari because we’ve always been peaceable; Asura would be unlikely to ally themselves given their superior attitude. Norn because we haven’t had major political problems with them and we could have a common enemy with the Charr.

My guess is humans would try to make allies as well as capture Claw Island and Lion’s Arch. As Kryta surrounds most of Lion’s Arch, humans would have the best chance of taking it. Of course there’s the Asura gates to worry about but if I were a commander of one of the races, I’d remove the gate from my home city. Prioritize safety of the home over the route to the enemy.

Norn would be crushed first as their enemies are within their walls. The centaurs are withdrawn, they wont attack until they got a new shaman. The flame legion is mord aggresive. The maguuma and south kryta still has undead washing up. I think asura and humans actually stand the best chance

IMO Norn would be the first to fall.

Norn are few, and, although they are great warriors, they aren’t good at teamwork. Confronted to a real army, their heroics will not be enough to save them: instead they will die “epic deaths” by the hundreds, and then simply scatter across the land.

Sylvari are few too, but they have the good sense of hiding and running when they need. They could probably organize a good defense of the Grove and resist there until the war reach a cap point… but they would accomplish little else. Even their awesome spies will not be able to do a noticeable change in a situation were every other race wants them instantly dead.

Individually, Charr are fast and fierce predators always ready for blood, far superior to any other race in a 1vs1 situation, with the possible exception of Norn. As a group, they are the most cohesive, organized and capable killing machine Tyria has ever seen. Armed with the new knowledge they have from Asura and Human technology, and having grown during the truce times to a vast population, they have become simply unstoppable.

Being way smarter, prouder and less moral than the other races, in the event of a 5 sided war, Asura would probably run for their lives to the safety of a floating city or something like that. Then, while the rest fight directly, they would simply turn off every single thing that depends on asuran magi-tech to work, and began to force the control they already have over technology, commerce and transportation on tyria.
While they will probably never “win” the war, they will undoubtedly benefit the most from it. Their major problem would be the Charr, but thay could simply avoid them using the portal technology until the infighting and scarcity of resources eases the threat.

Humans have an outstanding fortress in Divinity’s Reach. They would probably try to properly fight, but they are few, charged with political issues and too “righteous” to maintain a truly ruthless fight against 4 other forces. They will most likely end trapped inside Divinity’s Reach, sieged by Charr on every corner, exactly like it happened in Ebonhawke, just in a bigger scale, and without any outside help to keep supplies incoming.

In the end, the outcome of such a war would probably be a wide Charr nation surrounding the few strongholds controlled by Humans and Sylvari, with a sort of Norn guerrilla guerrilla offering pitiable resistance from the wildest and farthest places in the continent, not-oficially ruled by Asuran economical and technological claws.

And the remaining dragons be chillin’ in their dens being all like:
Kralk: “Oh boi, Hey Primo, Jormy! Where is Steve? You all gotta see this, these mortals are screwing themselves over big time!”

It depends in part on the rules you apply to the scenario.

However, it is worth noting that, despite their political turmoil, humans are arguably the second most powerful militarily of the playable races (they have an organisation the asura lack, and appear to have more population and militarisation in general than the sylvari, while the norn… well). In that context, their position isn’t such a huge strategic issue: in the opening stages, you’d probably have the asura and sylvari pairing off against one another in the west and the norn and charr pairing off against one another in the east, giving humans free rein in the opening stages (apart from Ebonhawke).

The norn would probably be the first to go – it’s hard to pick for sure whether the asura or sylvari would be ahead in that matchup (probably asura, , particularly since Rata Sum will be a PITA for the sylvari to attempt to siege), but the norn antipathy towards organisation is likely to mean that the charr will roll over them.

In the end, if we assume no diplomacy at all and no involvement from Cantha, my money would be on the charr winning*, but humans won’t be the first to fall.

*Note, though, that this is essentially allowing the charr to bring in reinforcements from off-map (Blood and Ash) while denying the same to humanity. Which is reasonable, under the current circumstances… but if the charr were to be limited to those in Ascalon alone, the ultimate winner might not be so clear.

draxynnic.3719:

but the norn antipathy towards organisation is likely to mean that the charr will roll over them.

Just like they did he first time? Wew… It is worth noting that back then Charr might not have had that advanced weapons of war. Norn are individualists, yet we can find them in 3 different orders, serving under a banner. They might turn into solo fights but It is hard for me to believe that they would watch as an organised army slaughters their brethren and burns down their homesteads. Just as Hoelbrak has Wolfborn (enforcers) I think that Norn could temporarily form some sort of at least slightly organised groups to would hit the Charr where it hurts the most.

Siege engines that our favourite humanoid cats have, are definitely something to reckon with, yet I am sure that a one, magic induced war-bear shapeshifter could handle a tank just right.

The first time, the charr just kind of brushed up against the norn. They didn’t put any effort into the fight, and the same source that talks about it also says “it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause”. Add in that that was before the charr even had guns, and it paints a very bleak picture for our mountain dwelling friends.

There are two problems with saying that the norn would organize to respond to a charr invasion. The first is that even their template, the Wolfborn, aren’t particularly organized. There are enough of them to keep the peace in Hoelbrak, sure, but they have no ranks, no chain of command, no evidence of logistics. They’re just two relatively young norn’s personal project- more like a youth gang than an army, held together by the force of personality of two men.

The other is that we have an example of a previous threat that could have wiped out the norn. Their response was to throw away hundreds of their best in individual skirmishes, without any greater backing or plan, until their Spirits had to force them to retreat before they were annihilated entirely. I’m not saying the charr are as dangerous as an Elder Dragon- but if the norn weren’t able to put aside their individuality to combat the greater threat, why would they do so for a lesser?

Rodzynald.5897:

Siege engines that our favourite humanoid cats have, are definitely something to reckon with, yet I am sure that a one, magic induced war-bear shapeshifter could handle a tank just right.

It’s not just siege engines. Look how much the charr have advanced technologically during peacetime. They have HELICOPTERS now. The charr and asura are lightyears away technologically from the other races – and they’ve started to learn from each other now, too.

I have to agree that the norn will have a tough time against the charr. Plus, the charr respect the norn – they won’t underestimate them. Instead, they’ll plan for the norn.

As people have said, the lore where the norn beat back the charr specifically said that if the charr had dispatched even a quarter of their strength, they would have won. The survival of the norn was dependent on the charr having a greater enemy that they were focused on (probably Ascalon) until a point when the charr had realised they could actually have peace, or something like it, with a neighbour… and fortunately for both, the norn don’t carry grudges at the national or racial level, and didn’t retaliate.

In the hypothetical everyone-fights-everyone-else scenario, the norn will cop the full might of the charr unless the charr focus on Ebonhawke and Ebonhawke holds.

Regarding technology… I don’t think the gap between the charr and asura and everyone else is in terms of ‘light years’. They’re ahead, yes, but humans have reverse-engineered some of their own stuff, and most of the really impressive stuff associated with the charr isn’t in Ascalon: it’s mostly associated with the Pact, where a lot of it is specifically said to be the result of multiracial collaboration.

We don’t see it in the racial home regions because they’re largely frozen in time, but there are references that Kryta has airships now. There’s probably some stage at which the Watchknights will be patched and go back into service. It’ll be interesting to see what happens when we get another Caudecus-oriented release: if we see a map with open warfare between Caudecus’ faction of the White Mantle and Kryta’s forces, we might get a better picture of what Kryta is deploying now rather than what Kryta was deploying before the foundation of the Pact.

I think the status quo would largely be maintained.
Yes the Charr legions are the superior fighting machine when it comes to warfare. But let’s not forget they are already engaged on multiple fronts. They are currently dealing with packs of ogres, branded, flame legion and ghosts of ascalon, of which the latter can never truly be defeated. Now add Ebonhawke and the Norn to that. The Charr will be fighting on so many fronts I think it will take a while before they actually start conquering large swaths of land.

The norn, while strong individually, are not exactly team players. They don’t form armies and are not interested in conquest, only in hunting and becoming famous.
The Charr will probably invade their territory, and because the Charr are unable to unleash their full strength the Norn are probably able to hold them off.

Ebonhawke is basically in the same situation they’ve been in before they had an alliance with Kryta, and before the Asura gate came. Cut off from the rest of Tyria and surrounded, but they’ve dealt with that situation before and they have an extremely fortified position and since the Charr can’t unleash their full strength against them Ebonhawke will be able to hold out for quite a while.

The Asura have superior technology and many golems, but they aren’t exactly military minded. They’ll probably cower in their cities and labs and use their superior technology to keep other races at bay. They’ll also shut down the Asura gates in the other cities.

The Sylvari will probably won’t start conquering anything either since their race got weakened by Mordremoth. Many of their people turned into mordrem and were in turn killed. And The Pale Tree is still out cold and wounded.

The humans of Kryta are probably the only ones in the position to take advantage of the situation and conquer some new land, but not much. The Charr are half a world away and occupied by multiple fronts, the Norn, Sylvari and Asura aren’t conquering anything either. So the humans would be largely unopposed as long as they don’t reach too far. Also lets not forget that the humans are not as far behind, technology wise, as you might think. Kryta has Airships too, not to mention Watch Knights.

To me the issue boils down to Humans vs Charr – because Sylvari and Norn are not militaristic in nature and wouldn’t become organized or strong enough to field a fully functional military machine.
I’m also counting the Asura out as well because I believe that they would rather hide/evade/sit it out and try to let the other races fight then deal with the victor or they might attempt to influence the fight but I doubt they would ever field armies to fight the other races head on.

So – in a Human vs Charr conflict I’m going to look at two situations:

1. The two races fight with things we have on the in-game map currently.
In this situation I believe the humans would have the advantage as they are currently fighting only ONE other real front – the war with the centaurs.
Their other opponents ( bandits and separatists) would most likely align with the rest of humanity in order to survive the conflict ( the separatists will certainly do so because after all they want to fight the charr).

The disadvantage of the Charr is that they are fighting on multiple fronts.
They are fighting the Ogres, Flame legion, the Branded and last but not least they are fighting the undying ghosts of Ascalon.
So they would have to fight the humans on top of all these other 4 enemy factions. One of them being against an endless and undying enemy.

Even if they could overwhelm the Ogres and Flame legion and contain the Branded all humanity would have to do to win the conflict would be to draw it out. Simply “contain” the Charr instead of fighting them head on and watch them crumble because they would eventually collapse from losing supplies and men every day trying to deal with the undying ghosts right outside their door.
Eventually if they are weakened enough a push could be made to finish them off.
I also feel that humans have an advantage because they field magic users – while as far as I can see in game there aren’t many ( if any) charr magic-user NPCs that aren’t Flame Legion.
I also don’t see the Flame Legion ever aligning themselves and making peace with the rest of the Charr because of their fundamental religious differences.

2. The two races have “outside help” from places we don’t see on the in-game map. This means the other Charr legions. But it also means humans could have support from Cantha.
Let’s not forget that the main thing stopping travel to Cantha were the undead ships under the command and influence of Zaithan. Zaithan is dead now – so by my reasoning communication and travel between Cantha and Tyria should be possible again.

Given Cantha’s xenophobic regime ( last we know of it this was the case) I believe they would support Kryta in their efforts against other races. If not for the benefit of Kryta then at least in order to take over and expand into Tyria as well.

In this case – I believe things might be balanced between the two races with maybe a small edge on the Charr side of things.

The Char fight against Ascalon ghosts out of hatred and stubbornness. But the ghosts are very contained and can’t normaly move freely outside their place of haunting. Charr could easyly withdraw from Ascalon to attack other enemies. Similar can be said about the branded.
The ogres are a minor threat, more similar to an annoying guerrilla than to a real battlefront.
The Flame Legion and Ebonhawke, however, are a totally different matter. They are real opponents no Charr could turn their back on.

So it all would fall down on the strategy taken by the high commands in the Charr army. If they decide to go with all the force against the humans, they are done. But that would meant to sacrifice the Black Citadel to the flame legion, to gain Divinity’s Reach instead. Hard call for them, really.

Ardid.7203:

The Char fight against Ascalon ghosts out of hatred and stubbornness. But the ghosts are very contained and can’t normaly move freely outside their place of haunting.

The Charr personal story starts with Ghost of Ascalon attacking the Village of Smokestead, right outside the eastern entrance of The Black Citadel.

The Ghost of Ascalon are stuck in time, thinking they are still alive and at war with the Charr. They will definitely go on the offensive when one of their leaders (like Duke Baradin) tells them to.

Ardid.7203:

The Char fight against Ascalon ghosts out of hatred and stubbornness. But the ghosts are very contained and can’t normaly move freely outside their place of haunting. Charr could easyly withdraw from Ascalon to attack other enemies. Similar can be said about the branded.
The ogres are a minor threat, more similar to an annoying guerrilla than to a real battlefront.
The Flame Legion and Ebonhawke, however, are a totally different matter. They are real opponents no Charr could turn their back on.

I agree with this. The ghosts of Ascalon are a largely contained, but long-term problem. The charr can move resources away from them. The ogres are such a minor problem for the charr that I forgot about them, and I have exclusively played charr characters.

The branded are a problem for both the charr and for Ebonhawke. Probably more a problem for the charr, but let’s not forget they’ll attack anyone.

The big problem for Ebonhawke is charr technology has advanced quite a bit in the peace period. They have HELICOPTERS now. Human anti-siege technology hasn’t kept pace with the siege weapons of the charr. Ebonhawke isn’t going to be able to deal with a charr aerial assault.

And the Flame Legion may not be the issue most here assume it to be. When the other Legions approach the Flame with an announcement that the charr have war with all humans again – you don’t think the Flame will want in? Gaheron Baelfire is dead and so are several of his Tribunes. Flame is in disarray to the point where they were willing to work with other races – and the leaders of those groups are dead or gone, now, too. Why wouldn’t the remaining Flame wouldn’t take the opportunity to stop getting their kittens beat and go kill some norn and humans?

So, the solution to the Flame Legion is largely political at this point. A politically expedient détente could be reached, and that’s very bad news for the humans.

Also, in the proposed scenario of “each race has declared war on the others”, I find it disingenuous to just write off the asura and sylvari with “they’d just run away.” If the asura and sylvari have declared war – then they obviously have some battle plans to win it.

In the proposed scenario, I still strongly believe the humans have major problems. Though it’s cool to hear viewpoints as to why their technological disadvantage isn’t going to completely undermine them.

Ardid.7203:

The Char fight against Ascalon ghosts out of hatred and stubbornness. But the ghosts are very contained and can’t normaly move freely outside their place of haunting. Charr could easyly withdraw from Ascalon to attack other enemies. Similar can be said about the branded.
The ogres are a minor threat, more similar to an annoying guerrilla than to a real battlefront.
The Flame Legion and Ebonhawke, however, are a totally different matter. They are real opponents no Charr could turn their back on.

So it all would fall down on the strategy taken by the high commands in the Charr army. If they decide to go with all the force against the humans, they are done. But that would meant to sacrifice the Black Citadel to the flame legion, to gain Divinity’s Reach instead. Hard call for them, really.

Even in this situation – the risk is immense.
What if DR holds? Not forever – but long enough to exhaust the attacking Charr while the Black Citadel falls to the ghosts or Flame Legion.

What do they do then? Even if they manage to breach DR and slaughter the humans to a man how do they sustain themselves?
A siege of DR means the destruction of the areas around that produce foodstuffs to support it. Either by attacking Charr or retreating humans.
They would win DR only to find themselves completely open, undersupplied ( if supplied at all) and weakened.

It’s not a real call unless you’re suicidal.

azureai.9764:

Ardid.7203:

The Char fight against Ascalon ghosts out of hatred and stubbornness. But the ghosts are very contained and can’t normaly move freely outside their place of haunting. Charr could easyly withdraw from Ascalon to attack other enemies. Similar can be said about the branded.
The ogres are a minor threat, more similar to an annoying guerrilla than to a real battlefront.
The Flame Legion and Ebonhawke, however, are a totally different matter. They are real opponents no Charr could turn their back on.

I agree with this. The ghosts of Ascalon are a largely contained, but long-term problem. The charr can move resources away from them. The ogres are such a minor problem for the charr that I forgot about them, and I have exclusively played charr characters.

The branded are a problem for both the charr and for Ebonhawke. Probably more a problem for the charr, but let’s not forget they’ll attack anyone.

The big problem for Ebonhawke is charr technology has advanced quite a bit in the peace period. They have HELICOPTERS now. Human anti-siege technology hasn’t kept pace with the siege weapons of the charr. Ebonhawke isn’t going to be able to deal with a charr aerial assault.

And the Flame Legion may not be the issue most here assume it to be. When the other Legions approach the Flame with an announcement that the charr have war with all humans again – you don’t think the Flame will want in? Gaheron Baelfire is dead and so are several of his Tribunes. Flame is in disarray to the point where they were willing to work with other races – and the leaders of those groups are dead or gone, now, too. Why wouldn’t the remaining Flame wouldn’t take the opportunity to stop getting their kittens beat and go kill some norn and humans?

So, the solution to the Flame Legion is largely political at this point. A politically expedient détente could be reached, and that’s very bad news for the humans.

---

Also, in the proposed scenario of “each race has declared war on the others”, I find it disingenuous to just write off the asura and sylvari with “they’d just run away.” If the asura and sylvari have declared war – then they obviously have some battle plans to win it.

In the proposed scenario, I still strongly believe the humans have major problems. Though it’s cool to hear viewpoints as to why their technological disadvantage isn’t going to completely undermine them.

The Flame Legion – at least to my understanding with to RULE the Charr more than they wish to destroy the humans.
They feel themselves the ruling caste of the Charr and as such would only enter such an “agreement” if it wasn’t an agreement and they ended up reverting the entire Charr race to its GW1 state.

Which the other legions won’t stand for – the betrayal in GW1 and the ultimate abandon of any gods stands at the core of what it means to be a Charr in GW2 – they would never go back from that.

Any GW1 and GW2 lore enthusiast can pretty safely state that the Charr and Flame Legion will never realign and come together again. The ideological schism between them is too great.

I also didn’t say that Asura or Sylvari are written off. Simply that Sylvari are not war-like enough to actually put up much of a fight ( consider their weakened state after HoT).
Asura wouldn’t go to war to begin with – they would wait it out.
If they went to war it depends on how the writers want to make things – realistically they could just teleport bombs inside the other race’s capitals and just destroy everything that way.
Most likely they’d be written as creating vast golem armies that march and do whatnot.

I still don’t think they’d ever go to war.

My two cents on charr enemies:

*The ghosts are a contained, manageable problem right now- but that’s with the resources the charr currently have devoted to them. Furthermore, the attack on Smokestead happened even with those assets in place. Divert them, and the problem escalates. I don’t think the charr would be foolish enough to do that, so that leaves a force which won’t interfere with the war but will tie up a fraction of the Legions’ manpower.

*The Sentinels take staggering casualties just slowing the spread of the Brand. Containing it is beyond the Legions’ ability. Unlike the ghosts, that’s a problem they have to constantly devote additional manpower to, and on the slim chance a powerful enough lieutenant decides to take advantage- say, a Shatterer- the charr could be defeated at a stroke, however well the war against the humans/asura/etc is going.

*The ogres are a little more than a nuisance. We see that they’re able to overrun entire charr fortifications. Most of them, though, are east of the Brand, in land that’s no longer important to hold. Withdrawing the troops on that front would be relatively safe.

*The conflict with the Flame Legion has gone on long enough, and both sides have wrapped up so much of their identity in their opposition to each other, that I can’t see any cooperation between the two without a clear victor subjugating their foes. By contrast, on the human side, the Separatists would be getting precisely what they wanted in this hypothetical war, and the Mantle would have to at least make a show of banding together with the Seraph in the face of charr aggression or else lose all the credibility Caudecus is desperately scrambling for. That makes the Flame a dangerous wild card to the charr. The only question, to my mind, is whether they have enough organization left to take advantage. I would presume so- Baelfire can’t have been the first Imperator lost in battle, so some sort of contingency is presumably in place to decide on a successor- but they might be too busy trying to replace yet another fallen deity for conquest to be as tempting as it used to be.

On sylvari weakness- I’d still put their odds at a pretty solid 4th, but it bears pointing out that a lot of what could weaken them is still just speculation. We’ve never gotten a solid answer on whether sylvari were turning outside of the jungle, and if they weren’t, the sylvari as a whole wouldn’t have taken any more of a beating than the other races. We don’t know if the Pale Tree’s coma affects the rate new sylvari get churned out, or what those saplings experience in the Dream. Without answers, it’d be equally valid to argue that the race is more or less unharmed as it would be to say they’re in a bad position.

Sylvari and Norn would crumble very quickly. They have very low populations, and the Norn in particular have poor abilities to organize themselves socially in the face of exterior threats. In addition, neither race has any substantial history of being conquerers or innovators (utopian, fairytale creature races usually die out pretty quickly in RPG lore).

Asura? I’m not sure. They are the personification of human progress (technologically advanced, small and energy efficient, live by intellectual virtues, socially well organized and communal), but they haven’t shown an aptitude for warfare or conquering, and I think this is by design.

Humans and Charr, the only two known conquerer races, are a bit of a toss up. Historically speaking they are tied, and the only major war the Charr won was with Abaddon’s help.

With no political ties…

Charr: Aggressively pushing for land control.
Human: Playing defensive, but would actively push out threats and expand.
Norn: Basically play mercenary, following whatever side tickles their fancy for their legend.
Sylvari: Neutral aid, basically Tyria’s Red Cross.
Asura. Neutral war time profiteers.

Full out five way war…

Sylvari are the first to fall.
Charr wouldn’t bother with the Norn unless provoked, because it would just be a waste of resources. They’ll push into Kryta.
Ebonhawke would fall from aerial bombardment from the Charr after a long seige. No chance of escape or reinforcements since the Asura locked down all gates and waypoints.
Asura would cloister themselves to build defenses, amass golems, and upgrade any and all relevant technology.

Surprisingly, at the very end, I think it would be the Asura vs. the Charr. Rata Sum is so secluded and defensible that I don’t think anyone would bother laying siege to it unless they absolutely had too, and the Asura’s non-involvement policies would only help them not draw ire for either the humans or Charr.

That would leave Kryta to take the full brunt of the Charr’s offensive first, especially considering that Blood and Ash Legion would join Iron in the war. Humans are dogged, but I don’t think they could withstand the full force of the Charr war machine. They’d last for awhile, but they’d be scattered within a decade or so.

So, it would be Charr v Asura. Charr would most likely win in a fair fight, since the sheer numbers they can throw at something, but the Asura could easily fight dirty and commit all sort of horrible war crimes if it lead to a path of victory. I’d imagine the Inquest would have ALOT of power during times of war. They get results after all, no matter how horrible they might be.

Asuran technomagical bio-weapons? Yes, the Inquest would use them without hesitation. Rata Sum would surely just look to another side.

And because the Eternal Alchemy never can be truly predicted, the Infected will become a threat even worse than the Corrupted.

Ardid.7203:

Rata Sum would surely just look to another side.

The goverment of Rata Sum is corrupt as hell and High Councillor Flax secretly supports the inquest. There’s even an inquest council member, Councillor Yahk.

The goverment might condemn the use of technomagical bio-weapons, but only publicly. Secretly they would condone it, and perhaps even let the Arcane Eye support them.

The problem with thinking that the charr have the advantage thanks to the advancements since the formation of the Pact is that those advancements came about because of the formation of the Pact, and the inter-racial cooperation that came as a result. The charr may have supplied the prototypes for much of it, but apart from the tanks and possibly the helicopters (I’ve heard it said that there’s an event in Orr somewhere with dialogue that the ‘copters are collaborations, but I’ve never found it myself) they’re the result of collaborations between the races.

Take the airships, for instance. Trahearne mentions that they’re a combination of asura, charr, and human design work. In LS2 and Verdant Brink, we see evidence that airships have disseminated to non-Pact humans, and possibly to all of the races.

Let’s assume for the moment, though, that all of these airships were destroyed over Verdant Brink, so that access to them is only available to those who can build more. It’s possible that all three of the races that contributed to the airship design have reverse-engineered each other’s components and are able to build their own, meaning that none of them automatically have air superiority. It’s possible that none can without the inputs of the others (I consider that unlikely, though, since the Infinarium is an example of a golem-built airship). It’s even possible that, ironic as it is, it’s the charr who lose out: we’ve seen that the asura can reverse-engineer charr stuff (we can probably assume that the human contribution was architectural insight, principles of lighter-than-air flight, and possibly aerodynamics and design of control surfaces, each of which would be easy to reproduce once known by the other races) and that humans can reverse-engineer both asura and charr stuff given the opportunity, but AFAIK we haven’t seen examples of charr reverse-engineering asura stuff, so it might be the charr that are missing an important component in airship manufacture after relations break down.

The best-case scenario for charr here would probably be that nobody could produce airships, but they can still produce charrcopters, giving them air superiority.

However, this does not mean that humans are defenceless against air attack. With the exception of the Searing Cauldrons, humans have always had the advantage magically over the charr, and there may be magical solutions to air attack, such as an anti-air obelisk or simply spells that make it possible to engage an air target (White Mantle in Bloodstone Fen…). Also, even if we assume that airships are too complicated to reverse-engineer without cooperation, we do see the Pact using anti-air cannons, and those are probably well within human capabilities to reverse-engineer. We see ingame that charrcopters are fairly vulnerable to ground fire, so hovering over Ebonhawke or Divinity’s Reach (keeping in mind that what we see ingame of both are frozen in time and may not represent the current reality) dropping bombs might be a very dangerous proposition.

(As noted above, of course, the gate being shut down does leave Ebonhawke in a dicey position. However, Kryta has shown an ability to keep Ebonhawke supplied without the gate before, so it may not be a fatal one.)

Harper.4173:

Ardid.7203:

The Char fight against Ascalon ghosts out of hatred and stubbornness. But the ghosts are very contained and can’t normaly move freely outside their place of haunting. Charr could easyly withdraw from Ascalon to attack other enemies. Similar can be said about the branded.
The ogres are a minor threat, more similar to an annoying guerrilla than to a real battlefront.
The Flame Legion and Ebonhawke, however, are a totally different matter. They are real opponents no Charr could turn their back on.

So it all would fall down on the strategy taken by the high commands in the Charr army. If they decide to go with all the force against the humans, they are done. But that would meant to sacrifice the Black Citadel to the flame legion, to gain Divinity’s Reach instead. Hard call for them, really.

Even in this situation – the risk is immense.
What if DR holds? Not forever – but long enough to exhaust the attacking Charr while the Black Citadel falls to the ghosts or Flame Legion.

What do they do then? Even if they manage to breach DR and slaughter the humans to a man how do they sustain themselves?
A siege of DR means the destruction of the areas around that produce foodstuffs to support it. Either by attacking Charr or retreating humans.
They would win DR only to find themselves completely open, undersupplied ( if supplied at all) and weakened.

It’s not a real call unless you’re suicidal.

You forgot that the Charr can just bomb Divinity’s Reach from the sky…

Asura Master Race.1593:

Harper.4173:

Ardid.7203:

The Char fight against Ascalon ghosts out of hatred and stubbornness. But the ghosts are very contained and can’t normaly move freely outside their place of haunting. Charr could easyly withdraw from Ascalon to attack other enemies. Similar can be said about the branded.
The ogres are a minor threat, more similar to an annoying guerrilla than to a real battlefront.
The Flame Legion and Ebonhawke, however, are a totally different matter. They are real opponents no Charr could turn their back on.

So it all would fall down on the strategy taken by the high commands in the Charr army. If they decide to go with all the force against the humans, they are done. But that would meant to sacrifice the Black Citadel to the flame legion, to gain Divinity’s Reach instead. Hard call for them, really.

Even in this situation – the risk is immense.
What if DR holds? Not forever – but long enough to exhaust the attacking Charr while the Black Citadel falls to the ghosts or Flame Legion.

What do they do then? Even if they manage to breach DR and slaughter the humans to a man how do they sustain themselves?
A siege of DR means the destruction of the areas around that produce foodstuffs to support it. Either by attacking Charr or retreating humans.
They would win DR only to find themselves completely open, undersupplied ( if supplied at all) and weakened.

It’s not a real call unless you’re suicidal.

You forgot that the Charr can just bomb Divinity’s Reach from the sky…

These days humans have airships too you know.
We don’t really know how many airships each race has, but we’ve seen them in possession of the Charr, Humans, Lionguard and Pact.
Though I guess it’s safe to say the pact does not have many airships anymore at the moment

Charr are the only ones with COWtapults. They can’t lose.

I think that it wouldn’t go well for most races, except the charr and asura, they probably be the last ones standing because of the tech and the fact the charr are so good at war.

The Charr would end up out on top,
1st The Norn would most likely side with the Charr, you don’t turn your back on a good drinking buddy. Plus the Norn very unorganized
2nd The Sylvari are in a weakend state currently, but even before then they may have skills and some knowledge, they lack numbers and real experience.
3rd The Asura lack number, but make it up with Golems. While they would be the second contender to come out on top. The Inquest would most likely see it as a opportunity to take full control of Rata Sum.
4th The Human’s are broken and scattered. Cut off from any sort of outside help. They are behind both Charr and Asura when it comes to war machines. The Humans lack military numbers and lack reliable leadership.

starhunter.6015:

1st The Norn would most likely side with the Charr, you don’t turn your back on a good drinking buddy. Plus the Norn very unorganized

The premise of the thread is everyone fighting against everyone. If you include the possibility of alliances, it stops being a matter of military strength and position alone, and you have to start considering how other alliances might work out. Depending on exactly what caused the fighting to break out, this could lead to the possibility of human-sylvari, human-asura, or even human-sylvari-asura or asura-charr-norn alliances.

It pretty much boils down to asura being the deciding factor in that case: charr, humans, and asura are strong enough that an alliance between the asura and either charr or humans could likely overwhelm the other three with sylvari being in a weakened state. (A charr-human alliance would also probably be unstoppable, but it’s hard to imagine a scenario of all-out war where that happens.)

draxynnic.3719:

starhunter.6015:

1st The Norn would most likely side with the Charr, you don’t turn your back on a good drinking buddy. Plus the Norn very unorganized

The premise of the thread is everyone fighting against everyone. If you include the possibility of alliances, it stops being a matter of military strength and position alone, and you have to start considering how other alliances might work out. Depending on exactly what caused the fighting to break out, this could lead to the possibility of human-sylvari, human-asura, or even human-sylvari-asura or asura-charr-norn alliances.

It pretty much boils down to asura being the deciding factor in that case: charr, humans, and asura are strong enough that an alliance between the asura and either charr or humans could likely overwhelm the other three with sylvari being in a weakened state. (A charr-human alliance would also probably be unstoppable, but it’s hard to imagine a scenario of all-out war where that happens.)

Except that the Humans are not strong any more. War with both Charr and Centaur nearly destroyed them completely. Let along all their internal issues because humans can’t seem to work together for long. I know the promise of the thread an in my opinion the Norn are simply no threat due to lack of organization. They would rather drink an party .

starhunter.6015:

draxynnic.3719:

starhunter.6015:

1st The Norn would most likely side with the Charr, you don’t turn your back on a good drinking buddy. Plus the Norn very unorganized

The premise of the thread is everyone fighting against everyone. If you include the possibility of alliances, it stops being a matter of military strength and position alone, and you have to start considering how other alliances might work out. Depending on exactly what caused the fighting to break out, this could lead to the possibility of human-sylvari, human-asura, or even human-sylvari-asura or asura-charr-norn alliances.

It pretty much boils down to asura being the deciding factor in that case: charr, humans, and asura are strong enough that an alliance between the asura and either charr or humans could likely overwhelm the other three with sylvari being in a weakened state. (A charr-human alliance would also probably be unstoppable, but it’s hard to imagine a scenario of all-out war where that happens.)

Except that the Humans are not strong any more. War with both Charr and Centaur nearly destroyed them completely. Let along all their internal issues because humans can’t seem to work together for long. I know the promise of the thread an in my opinion the Norn are simply no threat due to lack of organization. They would rather drink an party .

Humans are stronger than you think. They crushed the centaurs, drove them all the way back to Harathi and killed their leaders (see heart/event quests line). The Charr only destroyed Ascalon, they barely damaged Kryta (not for lack of trying).

Also lets not forget that humans have Airships too. And Watch Knights. They are still far behind the Asura and Charr of course, but they are not totally helpless technology wise.

It’s also worth noting that humans were in a bad place because of Caudecus. Caudecus was looking to make Jennah look incompetent, so he had his agents sabotage Kryta’s defences and assist the centaurs. Without Caudecus’ plotting the centaurs would have remained bottled up in the north, and Caudecus’ actions are motivated by seizing power himself: he didn’t want to see it destroyed, just to make people think Jennah needed to be replaced. Ultimately, he did what he did because he was confident that Kryta could still survive for him to seize control of.

His outing has probably strengthened Kryta, albeit at the cost of generating an additional external enemy, since he has less capability to sabotage from within the system (although he certainly still has agents and allies within the Krytan military and government). If Kryta was facing a clear and genuine existential threat, though, there’s a good chance that Caudecus would stop playing games for the time being and make sure there was still a Krytan throne to seize.

Most of the enemy factions are like that: ultimately, they still don’t want to see their race destroyed, so in an all-out war between races, they’re likely to work with their kindred. Sons of Svanir are the biggest exception, while the Flame Legion are something of a wild card in the all-out war scenario.

draxynnic.3719:

Most of the enemy factions are like that: ultimately, they still don’t want to see their race destroyed, so in an all-out war between races, they’re likely to work with their kindred. Sons of Svanir are the biggest exception, while the Flame Legion are something of a wild card in the all-out war scenario.

While still being one of the weaker races, that does put an interesting twist from the Sylvari’s side of these. An all out war would give the Nightmare Court basically a free pass to do whatever they wanted in the name of survival. So, while they would still probably be taken out early, the NC would probably make it costly for whoever goes after them.