Guild Wars 2

Primordus is active.
He is the biggest danger for Asuras.

But what about Inquests? They study Elder Dragons and they are in unite with other Asuras, so it is possible that they will fight against Primordus with us.

I noticed that LS3 part 2 will be end of Taimi’s mission. And She will find Primordus’s weakness. So we will see more Rata Novus and Ring of Fire will be culmination of everything what Taimi did.

Arden.7480:

I noticed that LS3 part 2 will be end of Taimi’s mission. And She will find Primordus’s weakness. So we will see more Rata Novus and Ring of Fire will be culmination of everything what Taimi did.

Where was this announced? I have seen/read nothing so far that indicates the end of Taimi’s “mission” (not that she has a specific mission, she is currently researching all the Dragons and their energy in what has become her lab).
Do you have a linkable source that states this?

Okay, first of all. We’re lucky if we’re even gonna see primordius before the next expantion. We dont even know IF there are any destroyers in the Ring of Fire. It could just be Primo’s champion moving there to feast on the bloodstone or something.

Secondly, the inquests won’t easily give out their information, not without a deal or scenario that leaves them out better.

Thirdly, Primordius is the domain of destruction. He would be a threat o all races, the Norn as much as the Asura since until not too long ago he was in the central transfer chamber feasting on a leyline node, which I have reason to believe he is still there, after all, why would a dragon abandon a banquet of magic.

Fourthly, ls3ch2 will be the end of taimi’s mission? What? What even made you think that? And the ring of fire is the culmination of what Taimi did? What? I’ll have what you’re having.

In short, all of taimi’s “mission” was that she would extract and translate all rata novan information on the elder dragons, god knows how long that would take.

@Arden: While we’re told that Taimi went to the RoF to investigate things, like the bookah she is, nothing says it’s the “end of her mission” nor that she will find Primordus’ weakness. And it’s highly unlikely we’ll end the plot in Episode 2. Or even Episode 3. Season 2 was eight releases and even that wasn’t the end of the plot, just the halfway point (or 3/4th point if you count Scarlet’s and Mordremoth’s plots as the same).

@Amaimon: Primordus’ only known domain is fire. We don’t know his second domain. While destruction is a decent educated guess, it’s far from likely given what little we know. Could say his second domain is earth and be just as likely.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Amaimon: Primordus’ only known domain is fire. We don’t know his second domain. While destruction is a decent educated guess, it’s far from likely given what little we know. Could say his second domain is earth and be just as likely.

Fair enough, I’ll concede destruction isn’t the confirmed true domain, but what we’ve seen from the other elder dragons, one domain is more materialistic while the second domain is more ideological, or surreal.
Like Zhaitan’s true domain was Shadow, Mawdrey’s was Mind, and while not confirmed, sailor stories tell us that the deepsea-dragon is propably related to terror/anguish/fear and according to the Norn we believe Jormag’s to be Corruption.

So destruction is a more believable true domain than earth, as earth is an element, and destruction is more of a concept. If it’s not destruction it could also be violence, chaos or something similar.

Afaik Primordius is the only one who hasn’t interacted with intelligent races yet. He doesn’t enslave, corrupt or manipulate, he just creates spews minions and destroyes everything in his wake. Whereas other minions turn intelligent creatures into puppets or servants, Primordius doesn’t.

This next bit is just a theory, but let me know it’s plausible:
Primordius behaves like an Ant Queen. When he still was underground, most destroyers looked very alien, but I looked them up recently, and they turnt out to look a lot like underground insects, tunnelers and plants/fungi. And now in GW2 when the minions surface, they suddenly look like crabs, harpies and trolls. So I’m wondering if they’re devouring creatures and using their bodies as blueprints to creature destroyers.

Correct me if I am wrong (I prob am so fair plays if so), but Mordremoth didn’t really corrupt in the same way Zhaitan, Kralk or Jormag does. The Sylvari were technically already minions of his and the other mordrem were created from templates of corpses, although I suppose using Logan and Zojja would prob count as enslaving for use as a template.

I suppose it is possible Primordus could turn out to be using other beings as template -eg Destroyer Troll and Harpy. Maybe the Great Dwarf Rite was an ancient protection against being used as a template in corruption as well as some immunity from the damage beings of fire could inflict.

Amaimon.7823:

This next bit is just a theory, but let me know it’s plausible:
Primordius behaves like an Ant Queen. When he still was underground, most destroyers looked very alien, but I looked them up recently, and they turnt out to look a lot like underground insects, tunnelers and plants/fungi. And now in GW2 when the minions surface, they suddenly look like crabs, harpies and trolls. So I’m wondering if they’re devouring creatures and using their bodies as blueprints to creature destroyers.

I actually thought about that recently and the two mlst plausible theories i could come up with were those:
1) the destroyers simply get the shape that is the best depending on where they go spread corruption. Because most encounters with destroyers in GW1 was underground, they had forms and shapes that adapted them to their environment. Now in GW2 they’re much closer to the surface, so they have enough room to fly, or just be big in general.
2) Just like the Sylvari were shaped after human because the Pale Tree used Ronan’s dead family grave as a template to make humans, the destroyers copy the shape of living creatures

Amaimon.7823:

Fair enough, I’ll concede destruction isn’t the confirmed true domain, but what we’ve seen from the other elder dragons, one domain is more materialistic while the second domain is more ideological, or surreal.
Like Zhaitan’s true domain was Shadow, Mawdrey’s was Mind, and while not confirmed, sailor stories tell us that the deepsea-dragon is propably related to terror/anguish/fear and according to the Norn we believe Jormag’s to be Corruption.

Not necessarily. We only know the second domain for Zhaitan and Mordremoth (not Mawdrey), but not of Jormag’s, Kralkatorrik’s, or Primordus’.

We don’t even know the first domain of the DSD.

Evidence actually points Jormag’s second domain to being soul. However, Glint and Kralkatorrik shows its powers over crystal and air/sky. Which is very much not a metaphysical aspect.

And, uh, no such “sailor stories” exist, I’m afraid. You may be thinking of quaggan and largos mentions of horrors in the depths, but nothing outright relates such to the DSD, and Kralkatorrik’s dragonbrand as well as Orr are also called horrors.

Amaimon.7823:

Afaik Primordius is the only one who hasn’t interacted with intelligent races yet. He doesn’t enslave, corrupt or manipulate, he just creates spews minions and destroyes everything in his wake. Whereas other minions turn intelligent creatures into puppets or servants, Primordius doesn’t.

Eh, not entirely accurate.

Mordremoth didn’t turn intelligent creatures into puppets but like Primordus made copies. Jormag gets willing converts, rather than slaves.

And Primordus has itneracted with the races, just not much in the past 200 years. His interactions are restricted to “kill everything” aka genocide.

Amaimon.7823:

This next bit is just a theory, but let me know it’s plausible:
Primordius behaves like an Ant Queen. When he still was underground, most destroyers looked very alien, but I looked them up recently, and they turnt out to look a lot like underground insects, tunnelers and plants/fungi. And now in GW2 when the minions surface, they suddenly look like crabs, harpies and trolls. So I’m wondering if they’re devouring creatures and using their bodies as blueprints to creature destroyers.

It’s been explicitly and directly stated that all destroyers are mimickries of living beings (much like mordrem). This means that those fought in GW1 – when Primordus was still asleep rather than ‘still underground’ (he’s still underground even now), they would have been of the ancient life forms – from the previous dragonrise.

His minions surfaced in GW1 too, y’know.

Randulf.7614:

Correct me if I am wrong (I prob am so fair plays if so), but Mordremoth didn’t really corrupt in the same way Zhaitan, Kralk or Jormag does. The Sylvari were technically already minions of his and the other mordrem were created from templates of corpses, although I suppose using Logan and Zojja would prob count as enslaving for use as a template.

You’re exactly right that Mordremoth didn’t corrupt – he created copies from a template.

Or rather, it should be said that he didn’t always – or even ‘mostly’ – corrupt. He – and Primordus – did corrupt living beings (mordrem trolls for example, and mordrem wolves), just as Jormag and Kralkatorrik create minions as well.

Mordrem did take bodies, but didn’t corrupt them.

Randulf.7614:

I suppose it is possible Primordus could turn out to be using other beings as template -eg Destroyer Troll and Harpy. Maybe the Great Dwarf Rite was an ancient protection against being used as a template in corruption as well as some immunity from the damage beings of fire could inflict.

No evidence of such. Primordus seems to just “see and copy freehand” whereas Mordremoth traces, thus why Mordremoth was creating near perfect copies of hyleks and saurians, while Primordus creates only ‘general likeness’ minions.

Plus, the crabs and trolls nowadays resemble the warrior and necromancer destroyers in GW1. If we are heading towards a Primordus expansion, it wouldn’t surprise me if they reintroduce the other destroyer appearances from GW1. (Primordus possibly currently has the lowest range of minions in the game at the moment, apart from Steve of course.) Harpies are the only destroyers that are actually ‘new’.

Amaimon.7823:

He would be a threat o all races, the Norn as much as the Asura since until not too long ago he was in the central transfer chamber feasting on a leyline node, which I have reason to believe he is still there, after all, why would a dragon abandon a banquet of magic.

Where is it stated that the CTC was a ley line nexus? Elder Dragons release magic when they sleep – the CTC was placed where it was because of the magic radiating from Primordus. (Given the low state of magic in the period when the CTC was built, it’s likely that the ley line network had so little energy in it as to be undetectable).

We’ve also been explicitly told that Primordus was moving around in the Depths between his awakening and GW2. Mind you, the route from Seis’ sensors seems to extend from the vicinity where we believe the CTC to be towards the Ring of Fire, so… well, we know that any information from out-of-game sources is subject to change. shrugs

Even the harpies aren’t all that new – they look like the sword warrior destroyers from GW1 (even having the sword in GW2) with wings – while the trolls look like axe warrior destroyers from GW2.

I was thinking the mesmer destroyers myself, but now that I look at them closer, you’re right: they are closer to the sword warriors, just with wings and extra spines.

Amaimon.7823:

Okay, first of all. We’re lucky if we’re even gonna see primordius before the next expantion. We dont even know IF there are any destroyers in the Ring of Fire. It could just be Primo’s champion moving there to feast on the bloodstone or something.

Neither Primordus, nor his champion is going to feast on the bloodstone. It simply can’t be done, that’s why the bloodstone was created in the first place.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Eh, not entirely accurate.

Mordremoth didn’t turn intelligent creatures into puppets but like Primordus made copies.

You don’t consider Scarlet or Aerin to be intelligent?

Amaimon.7823:

Okay, first of all. We’re lucky if we’re even gonna see primordius before the next expantion. We dont even know IF there are any destroyers in the Ring of Fire. It could just be Primo’s champion moving there to feast on the bloodstone or something.

Dragons and their armies can’t feast on the bloodstone(arah mission)

radda.8920:

Amaimon.7823:

Okay, first of all. We’re lucky if we’re even gonna see primordius before the next expantion. We dont even know IF there are any destroyers in the Ring of Fire. It could just be Primo’s champion moving there to feast on the bloodstone or something.

Dragons and their armies can’t feast on the bloodstone(arah mission)

Actually, it’s pretty clear from the Seer path that dragon minions, and therefore dragons, can consume magic from a bloodstone… once they access it. It’s possibly a slower process – they have to slowly leech it out rather than just eating it – but they can. The Seer path has several bosses that are empowered by bloodstone shards, for instance.

It’s possible that this is a result of the gods tampering with them – it wouldn’t have been possible while they were sealed, but once they were sealed, dragon minions could access bloodstone magic just like mortal spellcasters do. What I think is going on, though, is that the bloodstone serves to hide magic from whatever senses the dragons use to detect magic. They can access the magic in bloodstones once they physically access them, but they can’t home in on them, and possibly more importantly, magic in bloodstones doesn’t contribute to keeping them awake.

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Eh, not entirely accurate.

Mordremoth didn’t turn intelligent creatures into puppets but like Primordus made copies.

You don’t consider Scarlet or Aerin to be intelligent?

They – and all sylvari – were born dragon minions, technically, like almost all other mordrem.

The sylvari in general are a unique case, as they’re born purified, and those ‘corrupted’ are not done so through traditional means for any Elder Dragon. A unique case that’s so unique that it’s almost lore breaking, tbh.

The way I understand it is that Pale/Blighting Trees are just creating “fruits” based on the available bodies around to copy them.
Sylvari are humanoid because the tree was planted on the Ronan’s family. Since this was made when the dragon was sleeping, the tree was somehow uncontrolled by Mordremoth and did not designed the children for fight (she could have hatched mordrem soldier instead).
I tend to think that mordrem trolls are hatched the same way, only the bodies buried closed to the hatchery are those of trolls, which are not rare in the jungle.
I also think Malyck’s tree was planted on human bodies, but contrary to the Pale Tree, it was not watched by Ventari and then the Tree itself did not access to sentience nor got access to the Dream. For that reason I really think Mallyck and his brothers were in the army of mordrem soldiers we killed during HOT.

Now for Primordius corruption, like Konig said he creates new creatures from stone and fire, although his ability to directly corrupt things is not totally ruled out (the discussion started with the grawl shaman from Volcanic Fractal). So I was wondering if there is a possibility that he could corrupt stone Dwarves? It could actually be a strong army for him: berserk corrupt stone dwarves.

Dragon minions are still enslaved to their Elder Dragons’ will even while said Elder Dragon sleeps – see The Great Destroyer, Drakkar, Svanir, etc.. The Pale Tree’s independence exists for unknown reasons.

Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves are explicit examples of mordrem corrupting living beings rather than copying – the Mordrem Grunts are the copies of Mordrem Trolls.

Edit: As for corrupting the stone dwarves, given that the ritual was designed to allow the dwarves to fight destroyers that it would be designed to prevent corruption from Primordus as well.

Especially since the Forgotten had found/devised a ritual to free a dragon minion’s will from the Elder Dragon, and the mursaat had a spell to prevent dragon minions from touching them, it wouldn’t be odd if the coalition found a means to counter a specific Elder Dragons’ corruption.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dragon minions are still enslaved to their Elder Dragons’ will even while said Elder Dragon sleeps – see The Great Destroyer, Drakkar, Svanir, etc.. The Pale Tree’s independence exists for unknown reasons.

Maybe, at least that is how I see it, the Pale Tree is no minion, just a factory. I see Blighted trees are like orrian bone ships : a tool used by the dragon minions is their war.
I don’t think the Pale Tree got purified, it only got a “soul” and its own will, contratry to others trees seen in Maguuma which all have mordrem to “use” it. This may be because she took Ventari’s tablets in her roots and copied its philosophy granting her sentience… or any other thing. To be honest I am always puzzled by the fact that the realm used for sylvari common conciousness is called The Dream, while the Tree grew on a dead centaur who actually had a dream of peace… maybe I am too biased by this …

Blighting Trees – and in turn Pale Trees – are dragon champions. Bone Ships are literally inanimate objects. No consciousness to them.

And more than just the Pale Tree would have been purified – Malyck’s tree would have too. By your supposition, Malyck’s tree either must also have gotten a soul of its own somehow or would be creating mordrem.

However, just having gotten a soul wouldn’t really alter anything because its dragon corruption – souls are victems to dragon corruption even if only as being trapped in vessels they cannot control. Furthermore, unlike other Elder Dragons, Mordremoth can spread its mind across its corruption, so it would just override the Pale Tree. Based on the albeit very little information we know, purification prevents re-corruption (Mordremoth didn’t bother trying to recorrupt the Pale Tree, just as Kralkatorrik never bothered to recorrupt Glint, and the sylvari are not corrupted like other dragon minions, especially mordrem, but instead are more of brought under traditional brainwashing methods).

The Dream of Dream is not unique to sylvari or Mordremoth – see the White Stag for example. It’s also not (just) a common consciousness but a mindscape, according to Rytlock (and he apparently witnessed mindscapes in the Mists, given his commentary about having enough of them lately), and is not only independent of the Pale Tree/Mordremoth, but actively ushers tasks to sylvari to counter Mordremoth (and the other Elder Dragons) – both Dream and Nightmare do such.

Which indicates that the Dream of Dreams is an independent entity, assailed by Nightmare, which fights against the Elder Dragons as a whole and was hijacked by Mordremoth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Blighting Trees – and in turn Pale Trees – are dragon champions. Bone Ships are literally inanimate objects. No consciousness to them.

That is where I disagree, I don’t think the Trees have a consciousness from the beginning on. I am not even sure they can be called champion (at least I can’t recall anything in game doing so). Bone ships are inanimate because Zhaitan corrupts dead bodies, Mordremoth corrupt plants…which are alive but don’t necessary have a soul/consciousness.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And more than just the Pale Tree would have been purified – Malyck’s tree would have too. By your supposition, Malyck’s tree either must also have gotten a soul of its own somehow or would be creating mordrem.

Malyck Tree would need to be created on human bodies to create sylvari-like mordrem. But it is true that as a mordrem he should be under the control of Mordremoth in a way or another. Maybe when we encounter him he is to far from the jungle to hear the Call. However Malyck is full of mystery since though his first memory is to go out of hid pod (hence has no dream) he is still able to speak the same language as everyone, to use weapon….

Konig Des Todes.2086:

However, just having gotten a soul wouldn’t really alter anything because its dragon corruption – souls are victems to dragon corruption even if only as being trapped in vessels they cannot control. Furthermore, unlike other Elder Dragons, Mordremoth can spread its mind across its corruption, so it would just override the Pale Tree. Based on the albeit very little information we know, purification prevents re-corruption (Mordremoth didn’t bother trying to recorrupt the Pale Tree, just as Kralkatorrik never bothered to recorrupt Glint, and the sylvari are not corrupted like other dragon minions, especially mordrem, but instead are more of brought under traditional brainwashing methods).

Soul is certainly not the best word I could use. What I meant is that the benevolence of the Pale Tree, its personality or her nature are actually a manifestation of the Dream.
A regular tree would just create minions, them being controlled by the strongest mordrem entity in the neighborhood, no personality. In that case I think the weapon got hijacked (but maybe not on purpose) by the Dream… through Ventari’s wishes maybe.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Dream of Dream is not unique to sylvari or Mordremoth – see the White Stag for example. It’s also not (just) a common consciousness but a mindscape, according to Rytlock (and he apparently witnessed mindscapes in the Mists, given his commentary about having enough of them lately), and is not only independent of the Pale Tree/Mordremoth, but actively ushers tasks to sylvari to counter Mordremoth (and the other Elder Dragons) – both Dream and Nightmare do such.

Which indicates that the Dream of Dreams is an independent entity, assailed by Nightmare, which fights against the Elder Dragons as a whole and was hijacked by Mordremoth.

I never said the Dream is unique to Sylvari. I think its existence goes beyond them to the All. The Pale Tree is an anchor to this “realm”, again I think this anchor was made both by the care and hopes of Ventari and Ronan (but mostly the former). Fortunately, this anchor is able to generate creatures, which are then touched by the Dream instead of becoming simple dragon minions. Actually every sylvari through their access to the Dream, can become such anchor, like Traherne was one for Mordremoth mind.

Ranael.6423:

Maybe when we encounter him he is to far from the jungle to hear the Call.

That’s not how the call worked. It didn’t exist at all until sometime after he woke, and we have a dev tweet figuring that it didn’t have a range as such once it went public. The specific question was if a sylvari could hear/feel it in the Shiverpeaks, and her inclination was ‘yes’.

As for the theory that Ventari/Ronan somehow purified the Pale Tree- the issue I, and many folks around here, have with that idea is that it essentially says they defeated dragon corruption through the power of good intentions and fuzzy feelings, and besides begging the question of whether they were puking rainbows while they were at it, that’s undermining everything we’ve been told dragon corruption is. It’s disturbing, it’s scary, and one of the main reasons it’s disturbing and scary is that it is all but irresistible and incurable. Every actual example we have had to the contrary involved ancient rituals, designed by beings much stronger than us, that had to be carried out at specific sites for reasons we struggle to comprehend. And here come this random centaur and human, wiping that all away through the power of friendsh- er, pacifism? Nothing against those kinds of stories, but it doesn’t sit well in Tyria.

We got new trailer.

And an asura focuses my attention.
Is it an Inquest?

https://youtu.be/qyKleU1C4Rk?t=38

Ranael.6423:

That is where I disagree, I don’t think the Trees have a consciousness from the beginning on. I am not even sure they can be called champion (at least I can’t recall anything in game doing so). Bone ships are inanimate because Zhaitan corrupts dead bodies, Mordremoth corrupt plants…which are alive but don’t necessary have a soul/consciousness.

Zhaitan corrupted the living as well as plants, water, air, land. This is evident across Orr, several hearts in Bloodtide and Sparkfly, and in the personal story.

Mordremoth corrupted a handful of living beings (namely the mordrem wolves and trolls) too.

Trees are plants, and Mordremoth primarily corrupted plants as you said. Dragon champions are, by definition, intelligent minions that direct and make minions. And that’s what Blighted Trees do. Same with the Tower of Nightmares, which is stated to be apparently intelligent despite never interacting with us.

Ranael.6423:

Malyck Tree would need to be created on human bodies to create sylvari-like mordrem. But it is true that as a mordrem he should be under the control of Mordremoth in a way or another. Maybe when we encounter him he is to far from the jungle to hear the Call. However Malyck is full of mystery since though his first memory is to go out of hid pod (hence has no dream) he is still able to speak the same language as everyone, to use weapon….

That’s not how dragon minion mentality works. Dragon minions are enslaved to their master’s will – the Elder Dragon’s will is the minion’s will – regardless of the state or distance. Jormag was far to the north but Drakkar was still enslaved to it during GW1, just as Svanir was, and just as the Great Destroyer was to Primordus.

“The Call” refers to when Mordremoth sent out a series of thought processes through the Dream to the sylvari tied to it – so Malcyk could never ever hear the call because he has no connection to the Dream – in a manner that makes each individual sylvari believe the thought are his or her own thoughts rather than a foreign thought. The first time ‘the call’ began was when the Pact Fleet set off.

Further, Malyck isn’t a sylvari-like mordrem. He is a sylvari. This is the key point about the Pale Tree’s uniqueness… in that it isn’t fully unique. A human-like mordrem is… exactly what the Mordrem Guard look like.

Ranael.6423:

Soul is certainly not the best word I could use. What I meant is that the benevolence of the Pale Tree, its personality or her nature are actually a manifestation of the Dream.
A regular tree would just create minions, them being controlled by the strongest mordrem entity in the neighborhood, no personality. In that case I think the weapon got hijacked (but maybe not on purpose) by the Dream… through Ventari’s wishes maybe.

To create minions, it must be corrupted. If it is corrupted, it is either landscape or a minion. Plants would technically be minions, even if immobile.

All minions are enslaved to their Elder Dragon. The Dream would not be able to override this, given that Mordremoth has some degree of power over it. And no tablet would be able to free a dragon minion either, as such would mean that the power of love and friendship would be enough and… if that was so Grymm Svaard would not have had to kill his brother in Sea of Sorrows novel, and people would not be convinced that becoming a dragon minion is final.

Ranael.6423:

The Pale Tree is an anchor to this “realm”, again I think this anchor was made both by the care and hopes of Ventari and Ronan (but mostly the former). Fortunately, this anchor is able to generate creatures, which are then touched by the Dream instead of becoming simple dragon minions. Actually every sylvari through their access to the Dream, can become such anchor, like Traherne was one for Mordremoth mind.

Ventari and Ronan did absolutely NOTHING magical to the Pale Tree.

People seem to fail to get this. Ronan and Ventari raising the Pale Tree was no more than a good parent raising a child with proper morals of right and wrong. And as said, you cannot defeat dragon corruption with purely good intentions and old friendships and memories. That’s the core foundation of what dragon corruption is.

And your explanation fails, again, Malyck, who has no tie to the Dream and is not a mordrem.

Arden.7480:

We got new trailer.

And an asura focuses my attention.
Is it an Inquest?

https://youtu.be/qyKleU1C4Rk?t=38

No red in his outfit, wears full T1 cultural light armor. I don’t think there are any Inquest that wears that. There are, however, Peacekeepers that do.

I won’t continue this discussion further because since I read the forum I know all your arguments already, even if I don’t always (like now) agree but

Dragon champions are, by definition, intelligent minions that direct and make minions. And that’s what Blighted Trees do.

I fail to see the intelligence in blighting Trees, and I wonder why if they are, they need a mordrem commander around to order to create new minions and then send said minions to battle.

Edit : I forgot something I wanted to add yesterday :

This vine, while appearing to be touched by Mordremoth, has been grown from seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria.

Sometimes this is how it works, right ?

They don’t need mordrem commanders around. The three blighting trees in Auric Basin, for example, create minions without one of the three commanders around. In DS, the commanders are tied to the trees in some sort of symbiotic relationship.

We fed Mawdrey all sorts of odd magic, including stuff known to be countering dragon corruption: Foefire magic. Which was, in fact, used on the first generation of Mawdrey. We didn’t purify it by the power of love and friendship. It was the act of feeding it odd magics, and befriending it – even Glint needed to be befriended after being purified.

I’m not sure I’d cite Foefire magic as countering dragon corruption – Ascalonian ghostfire in the PS pretty much destroyed indiscriminately.

That said, we range across Tyria finding odd magical ingredients, most of which we can’t realistically assume Ventari had access to even if he somehow had some idea that the sprouting plant he had set up camp next to was anything more special than an unusual plant (note: everything we’ve been told indicates he didn’t – the Pale Tree wasn’t able to communicate at all before he died). Any part of that process could have served as a purifying step.

The idea of the ‘power of love’ comes from Glint’s testimony in EoD, but we now know that to have been a half-truth.

Regarding the Blighting Trees: Creating commanders is pretty much a) creating a powerful entity which can fight, and b) creating a commander that can continue to command away from the Blighting Tree. Just because we never see the Blighting Trees communicate doesn’t mean they can’t communicate to their subordinates (and remember that sylvari PCs hearing Mordy’s voice only happened in instances, and Blighting Trees don’t appear in instances except, perhaps, during Bitter Harvest).

Just because we never see the Blighting Trees communicate doesn’t mean they can’t communicate to their subordinates

But doesn’t confirm they do either. My point is we can see things in both directions and right now I am more inclined in seeing Trees as tools rather than entity able to take decision. I am not claiming I know the truth, just saying that this possibility remains open.
For example Cellona seems to be in charge of the operation in Auric basin by ordering mordrem to bring corpse to the Trees.

As for the " power of love ", it is a bit of a caricature because only Konig an Aaron used these words to say it is not working. I was only saying that Ventari could have done more than he thought when he carved the tablet. And I genuinely think Ventari was more into the magical things than presented in GW1. I know gameplay and lore sometimes conflict but why choose him as a Legend of the Past if he was just a mere centaur with stone carving skills…. a stone that revenants can summon in combat (well not the real one but a magical copy of it having healing power).
I mean until now, everybody thought “ok we can only purify dragon minions in specific places (altar of Glaust) with specific ritual”. Now we just need to gather stones, infuse them on leyline nodes, and clay and a corrupted vine seed becomes a friendly vine…. no altar, no ritual, just foxfire as food.
Let the possibilities exist, especially when the “Pale Tree is NOT a dragon Champion” crowd form 2 years ago was as passionate to defend this opinion, sometimes with the exact same arguments.

Also if the Pale Tree was like Glint, that is a purified champion, why would she say " I wish I could be of more service. My knowledge of the world does not extend deeply into the past" when asked about Elder Dragons. I mean would a caring mother not be a bit more preventive for her children and tell them a bit more about their origins if she knew?

I’m not convinced the pale tree was purified. I think it was just moved outside of Mordy’s sphere of influence by Mordy. Sylvari only seemed to be affected when the came to close to Mordremoth.

Ranael.6423:

As for the " power of love ", it is a bit of a caricature because only Konig an Aaron used these words to say it is not working. I was only saying that Ventari could have done more than he thought when he carved the tablet. And I genuinely think Ventari was more into the magical things than presented in GW1. I know gameplay and lore sometimes conflict but why choose him as a Legend of the Past if he was just a mere centaur with stone carving skills…. a stone that revenants can summon in combat (well not the real one but a magical copy of it having healing power).

For the record, I do want to say that Ranael is right here. I was responding to the version of the theory that I’ve seen in the past, that Ventari ‘raising’ the Pale Tree to be a good kid was what broke her link to Mordremoth. While the idea that he somehow magicked away the corruption does still raise many questions, not least of which being where he got the magic to do it, and why Malyck was basically decent too, I’m not 100% against the idea.

That said, my own take on Ventari’s legend is that it reflected the impact he had on the world, rather than copying any specific powers he used to have. This is a guy who set the moral foundation for an entire race, and in the process, formulated the first coherent code of ethics that we’ve ever heard of in the world of Tyria. That’s pretty earth-shattering in it’s own right, and I feel it’s enough to cause the kind of Mist echoes that revenants draw power from. And when that work towards peace and pacifism is converted into a magical effect, it makes sense that it’d come out as healing.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

While the idea that he somehow magicked away the corruption does still raise many questions, not least of which being where he got the magic to do it, and why Malyck was basically decent too, I’m not 100% against the idea.

Those questions are basically the killer.

Even the first generation of the vine requires two resources that Ventari simply would not have had access to, and one that required travelling a great distance (the Purified Sacred Glacier Water). Considering them all, it’s entirely plausible that these are similar components to what the Forgotten used: the ‘specific location’ required for the ritual may have been a ley line nexus (ley-infused pot, check), and what we feed it seems to be sources of divine and/or spiritual energy.

From what we’re told, Ventari never left the Pale Tree after he arrived, so he wouldn’t have had the opportunity to go and collect the materials we do across Tyria. Nor would he have had incentive to do so. There’s no evidence that any centaur, including Ventari, had any idea that the Elder Dragons existed before they rose, nor did Ventari have any idea that the Pale Seedling was anything other than an exotic plant which was cultivated to commemorate a massacre. He has no motivation to do anything for the Pale Tree beyond basic care for a young plant.

The real killer, though, is Malyck. If Ventari somehow freed the Pale Tree, why was Malyck independent?

Your thoughts regarding why Ventari is a legend fit in with my own – while most legends are less powerful than the original, Ventari’s may have become more powerful due to the influence he’s had. This would explain why his legend’s skills all work through the Tablet – it’s not so much Ventari’s power that we’re channeling but the power of his teachings.

(Although I would note that when you say that Ventari laid down the first code of ethics of Tyria, you’re forgetting the scriptures of the gods: “Lay down thy weapons, and as I have done unto ye, so ye must do for your brethren. Offer protection to the weak. Give solace and shelter to those who need it. Be ye a salve to the wounded.”)

draxynnic.3719:

I’m not sure I’d cite Foefire magic as countering dragon corruption – Ascalonian ghostfire in the PS pretty much destroyed indiscriminately.

Actually, I was ferring to how Ascalonian ghosts are the one thing that Kralkatorrik’s corruption did not affect in any way (per a Blazeridge heart).

Though Ghostfire is stated to be surprisingly far more effective against risen than anything else used on.

draxynnic.3719:

The idea of the ‘power of love’ comes from Glint’s testimony in EoD, but we now know that to have been a half-truth.

People were denoting that before Edge of Destiny came out, actually, and many who still make that kind of claim do not cite that passage in EoD.

Just nitpicking here. :P

Ranael.6423:

And I genuinely think Ventari was more into the magical things than presented in GW1.

You are presented zero evidence of such yet believe it to be so… why?

Ranael.6423:

I know gameplay and lore sometimes conflict but why choose him as a Legend of the Past if he was just a mere centaur with stone carving skills…. a stone that revenants can summon in combat (well not the real one but a magical copy of it having healing power).

Because he held a strong philosophical belief which left a strong impact on the Mists.

Plus from a design viewpoint, every legend is some throwback to GW1.

Ranael.6423:

Let the possibilities exist, especially when the “Pale Tree is NOT a dragon Champion” crowd form 2 years ago was as passionate to defend this opinion, sometimes with the exact same arguments.

As a vocal member of that crowd, the opinion was due to things that remain standing. The sylvari have big differences with standard dragon minions – even mordrem.

And why the Pale Tree is independent is a huge question as well, which previously could only be answered with “she was somehow purified” or “she isn’t a dragon champion” and at the time, the latter was the more likely option given all the contradictions that existed (and still exist).

Ranael.6423:

Also if the Pale Tree was like Glint, that is a purified champion, why would she say " I wish I could be of more service. My knowledge of the world does not extend deeply into the past" when asked about Elder Dragons. I mean would a caring mother not be a bit more preventive for her children and tell them a bit more about their origins if she knew?

The Pale Tree very obviously knew about the sylvari origins. It’s outright stated to be the case in the finale of Season 2.

She says that because she is hiding the truth about sylvari at that time still, and she isn’t an ancient dragon champion like Glint was – she’s a new dragon champion that’s been purified (no other explanation for why she’d have her own free will) by unknown means.

DarcShriek.5829:

I’m not convinced the pale tree was purified. I think it was just moved outside of Mordy’s sphere of influence by Mordy. Sylvari only seemed to be affected when the came to close to Mordremoth.

By your argument then Drakkar, Svanir, Kellach (Human PS), Howl (charr PS), Mazdak (sylvari PS), and infinitely more minions should be independent of their Elder Dragon.

Distance has absolutely zero bearing on the enslavement of one’s will. Whether the Elder Dragon is awake or not.

And in Mordremoth’s case specifically: Scarlet went far beyond the Pale Tree’s distance from Mordremoth and was affected by the Elder Dragon.

So it most absolutely was not a matter of distance from Mordremoth while it was asleep.

draxynnic.3719:

(Although I would note that when you say that Ventari laid down the first code of ethics of Tyria, you’re forgetting the scriptures of the gods: “Lay down thy weapons, and as I have done unto ye, so ye must do for your brethren. Offer protection to the weak. Give solace and shelter to those who need it. Be ye a salve to the wounded.”)

Not forgetting, just downplaying. The humans had teachings, but as far as we know, no formalized code like Ventari’s Tablet, and their teachings often only concerned a given god’s area of interest and conflicted with the others- that Dwayna bit, for instance, is in opposition to Grenth’s “Where is the god to whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me?” and especially Balthazar’s “Lift up thy weapons.” That kind of muddled climate makes clear, cut-and-dry morality difficult, and I’d guess fostered an environment where each gods’ rules only applied to their own followers, with the rest of the population left to figure out right and wrong as best they could on a case-by-case basis. Ventari, on the other hand, for all his flowery metaphors makes a pretty clear and consistent set of rules that can be applied to a broad variety of situations.

… but this is probably derailing the thread, so I’ma quiet down now.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

I’m not sure I’d cite Foefire magic as countering dragon corruption – Ascalonian ghostfire in the PS pretty much destroyed indiscriminately.

Actually, I was ferring to how Ascalonian ghosts are the one thing that Kralkatorrik’s corruption did not affect in any way (per a Blazeridge heart).

Though Ghostfire is stated to be surprisingly far more effective against risen than anything else used on.

draxynnic.3719:

The idea of the ‘power of love’ comes from Glint’s testimony in EoD, but we now know that to have been a half-truth.

People were denoting that before Edge of Destiny came out, actually, and many who still make that kind of claim do not cite that passage in EoD.

Just nitpicking here. :P

Ranael.6423:

And I genuinely think Ventari was more into the magical things than presented in GW1.

You are presented zero evidence of such yet believe it to be so… why?

Ranael.6423:

I know gameplay and lore sometimes conflict but why choose him as a Legend of the Past if he was just a mere centaur with stone carving skills…. a stone that revenants can summon in combat (well not the real one but a magical copy of it having healing power).

Because he held a strong philosophical belief which left a strong impact on the Mists.

Plus from a design viewpoint, every legend is some throwback to GW1.

Ranael.6423:

Let the possibilities exist, especially when the “Pale Tree is NOT a dragon Champion” crowd form 2 years ago was as passionate to defend this opinion, sometimes with the exact same arguments.

As a vocal member of that crowd, the opinion was due to things that remain standing. The sylvari have big differences with standard dragon minions – even mordrem.

And why the Pale Tree is independent is a huge question as well, which previously could only be answered with “she was somehow purified” or “she isn’t a dragon champion” and at the time, the latter was the more likely option given all the contradictions that existed (and still exist).

Ranael.6423:

Also if the Pale Tree was like Glint, that is a purified champion, why would she say " I wish I could be of more service. My knowledge of the world does not extend deeply into the past" when asked about Elder Dragons. I mean would a caring mother not be a bit more preventive for her children and tell them a bit more about their origins if she knew?

The Pale Tree very obviously knew about the sylvari origins. It’s outright stated to be the case in the finale of Season 2.

She says that because she is hiding the truth about sylvari at that time still, and she isn’t an ancient dragon champion like Glint was – she’s a new dragon champion that’s been purified (no other explanation for why she’d have her own free will) by unknown means.

DarcShriek.5829:

I’m not convinced the pale tree was purified. I think it was just moved outside of Mordy’s sphere of influence by Mordy. Sylvari only seemed to be affected when the came to close to Mordremoth.

By your argument then Drakkar, Svanir, Kellach (Human PS), Howl (charr PS), Mazdak (sylvari PS), and infinitely more minions should be independent of their Elder Dragon.

Distance has absolutely zero bearing on the enslavement of one’s will. Whether the Elder Dragon is awake or not.

And in Mordremoth’s case specifically: Scarlet went far beyond the Pale Tree’s distance from Mordremoth and was affected by the Elder Dragon.

So it most absolutely was not a matter of distance from Mordremoth while it was asleep.

By your argument, all dogs are collies. I never mentioned anything about the other elder dragons, only Mordremoth. The devs themselves have stated that Mordy’s corruption is different from the other dragons. I don’t know why you continue to insist that all elder dragons must act the same, despite seeing that they don’t.

Yes, I am saying that Mordremoth’s control of the sylvari depended heavily on their proximity to them. Not one sylvari came under his control until they were close by. The only sylvari that were affected by Mordremoth were either in the maguma wastes or the Heart of Maguma. Not one sylvari outside of these areas was affected. Even in the heart of Maguma, Rata Novus somehow provided protection against Mordremoth’s influence. Go back and play the Rata Novus episodes and pay attention to Canach.

There is no proof that the pale tree was purified by any thing. Please stop pushing this fairy tale as if it was fact.

Your range contention has already been addressed:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ranael.6423:

Maybe when we encounter him he is to far from the jungle to hear the Call.

That’s not how the call worked. It didn’t exist at all until sometime after he woke, and we have a dev tweet figuring that it didn’t have a range as such once it went public. The specific question was if a sylvari could hear/feel it in the Shiverpeaks, and her inclination was ‘yes’.

Now, I haven’t seen what Aaron is referring to there, but in-game, we see that Mordremoth’s reach (and Mordremoth himself, because as Taimi says, the permanent vines are part of his body) extends as far as the Iron Marches.

Now, range does seem to have a role to play on his influence on sylvari. However, Mordremoth has regular, non-sylvari minions (everything Mordrem that isn’t a Modrem Guard). None of those appear to have broken free due to distance.

The sylvari are something special – Mordremoth isn’t assured of their loyalty like he is with his other minions. This isn’t something that’s broadly different about all of the Mordrem, it’s specific to sylvari. There’s something about sylvari that means that, while Mordremoth does have a back-door to mind-control them, they’re not entirely his the way other minions, including other Mordrem, are.

The best explanation we have is that at some point in their history they’ve been cleansed in a manner similar to Glint. It’s possible that there’s another explanation, but I don’t think it can simply be a matter of distance.

At the bottom line, you cannot simultaneously contend that Mordremoth’s control is range-based and that there’s nothing special about sylvari compared to other mordrem, since we know from S2 that Mordremoth’s reach extends almost all the way across playable Tyria. Either there’s something special about the sylvari that distinguishes them from other mordrem – which then raises the question of why – or there isn’t, in which case Mordremoth’s reach extends at least as far as the Iron Marches or we’d be seeing the Mordrem there going rogue.

(Also, as a footnote: Remember that we haven’t been shown much of what happened outside the Heart of Maguuma since S2. It’s entirely possible that Mordremoth did seize control of sylvari across Tyria, and we just haven’t heard about it yet.)

draxynnic.3719:

Your range contention has already been addressed:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ranael.6423:

Maybe when we encounter him he is to far from the jungle to hear the Call.

That’s not how the call worked. It didn’t exist at all until sometime after he woke, and we have a dev tweet figuring that it didn’t have a range as such once it went public. The specific question was if a sylvari could hear/feel it in the Shiverpeaks, and her inclination was ‘yes’.

Now, I haven’t seen what Aaron is referring to there, but in-game, we see that Mordremoth’s reach (and Mordremoth himself, because as Taimi says, the permanent vines are part of his body) extends as far as the Iron Marches.

Source!

Now, a lot can be read into a tweet, and we have an unfortunate habit here of thinking the worst when it comes to Angel in particular, but for this conversation it suffices to say that the writers weren’t suggesting that Mordremoth’s call had a range limit.

I’m with Drax here- the ‘scope’ of HoT is causing trouble again. Imagine sylvari did go Mordrem Guard outside of the jungle. Not only would we not have heard about it then- the same way we didn’t hear about anything in the rest of Tyria- but the several months that have passed between HoT and S3 also means that it’d be old news by now, and not something NPCs would casually bring up in conversation. This is definitely a case where absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It is something that needs to be addressed, but I’m pretty dejected where these sylvari loose ends are concerned, and given that a vocal part of the playerbase would be just as happy if we never touch on them again…

DarcShriek.5829:

By your argument, all dogs are collies. I never mentioned anything about the other elder dragons, only Mordremoth. The devs themselves have stated that Mordy’s corruption is different from the other dragons. I don’t know why you continue to insist that all elder dragons must act the same, despite seeing that they don’t.

And I explicitly mentioned Scarlet Briar as an example.

And all Elder Dragons have the same core fundamentals of corrupting, even Mordremoth shows that. However, every Elder Dragon also shows their own unique methodology and preference in corrupting. Primordus actually corrupts in a very, very similar manner to Mordremoth. Just replace Blighting Tree with lava pool, and exact duplicate to rough sketch, and you go from Mordremoth to Primordus.

What made Mordremoth different was his connection to the Dream and in turn his ability to exhibit “the call”.

DarcShriek.5829:

Yes, I am saying that Mordremoth’s control of the sylvari depended heavily on their proximity to them. Not one sylvari came under his control until they were close by. The only sylvari that were affected by Mordremoth were either in the maguma wastes or the Heart of Maguma. Not one sylvari outside of these areas was affected. Even in the heart of Maguma, Rata Novus somehow provided protection against Mordremoth’s influence. Go back and play the Rata Novus episodes and pay attention to Canach.

You cannot prove this, as we never see the effects of sylvari far away from him once “the call” went out. In game, at least. And out of game, well, Aaron provides something about that.

There are a lot of possibilities for why Rata Novus, which was close than Camp Resolve or the skies above Verdant Brink, would provide a… dampening of Mordremoth’s telepathy.

DarcShriek.5829:

There is no proof that the pale tree was purified by any thing. Please stop pushing this fairy tale as if it was fact.

By the literal foundation for how every mordrem (and, technically speaking, other dragon minion) functions, if the Pale Tree was not purified in some form of manner at some point before creating sylvari, then she would have been “praise Mordremoth!” from the very beginning and so would every Firstborn and Secondborn and all other sylvari.

There is no statement, but there most definitely is proof.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Amaimon.7823:

Fair enough, I’ll concede destruction isn’t the confirmed true domain, but what we’ve seen from the other elder dragons, one domain is more materialistic while the second domain is more ideological, or surreal.
Like Zhaitan’s true domain was Shadow, Mawdrey’s was Mind, and while not confirmed, sailor stories tell us that the deepsea-dragon is propably related to terror/anguish/fear and according to the Norn we believe Jormag’s to be Corruption.

Not necessarily. We only know the second domain for Zhaitan and Mordremoth (not Mawdrey), but not of Jormag’s, Kralkatorrik’s, or Primordus’.

We don’t even know the first domain of the DSD.

Evidence actually points Jormag’s second domain to being soul. However, Glint and Kralkatorrik shows its powers over crystal and air/sky. Which is very much not a metaphysical aspect.

And, uh, no such “sailor stories” exist, I’m afraid. You may be thinking of quaggan and largos mentions of horrors in the depths, but nothing outright relates such to the DSD, and Kralkatorrik’s dragonbrand as well as Orr are also called horrors.

The only known shape of the deep sea dragon’s corruption comes from The Movement of the World, claiming that it twists water into tentacled horrors; some quaggan and largos also make mention of horrors belonging in the ocean’s depths now as well, though the nature of these “horrors” is unclear. The Movement of the World also says that through its powers, it has been creating servants from every lake and river around its location.
I did find this. I couldn’t find the original source I had on the sailors. I’m like 138% sure I read that somewhere, but it might’ve been in my sleep, now, it seems.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By the literal foundation for how every mordrem (and, technically speaking, other dragon minion) functions, if the Pale Tree was not purified in some form of manner at some point before creating sylvari, then she would have been “praise Mordremoth!” from the very beginning and so would every Firstborn and Secondborn and all other sylvari.

Where is the evidence that such a purification took place? And if there is no such evidence, is it more reasonable to assume that such an important plot point occurred, but even after all the other revelations about Sylvari, no one has ever thought to explain it?

Or to assume as all the in-game evidence suggests, that each dragon’s corruption works somewhat differently, that mordremoth’s Call is affected by distance or heavy material barriers like a magical wifi signal, and that a sufficiently powerful Mordrem, if left to grow outside of the Dragon’s influence, could develop the awareness and willpower (bearing in mind that they likely inherently share the Dragon’s “mind” affinity) to resist the Dragon’s domination?

perilisk.1874:

Where is the evidence that such a purification took place? And if there is no such evidence, is it more reasonable to assume that such an important plot point occurred, but even after all the other revelations about Sylvari, no one has ever thought to explain it?

We know that sylvari were created to be dragon minions. It seems weird to have dragon minions trying to kill other dragons, even its own master. Yes, Mordremoth was sleeping up until Scarlet Briar’s actions, but that minions would even consider turning against its master greatly implies that something happened to the seed to protect the sylvari from being controlled from day one.

perilisk.1874:

Or to assume as all the in-game evidence suggests, that each dragon’s corruption works somewhat differently, that mordremoth’s Call is affected by distance or heavy material barriers like a magical wifi signal, and that a sufficiently powerful Mordrem, if left to grow outside of the Dragon’s influence, could develop the awareness and willpower (bearing in mind that they likely inherently share the Dragon’s “mind” affinity) to resist the Dragon’s domination?

We know distance isn’t a factor- we fought Mordrem in the Iron Marches, remember? And there isn’t any physical barrier between the Pale Tree and Mordremoth. Therefore, yes, assuming the mechanism we know can grant dragon minions free will was employed is less of a jump than to assume that there’s some other way to become independent, and that the game’s just never hinted at such an important plot point.

Amaimon.7823:

I did find this. I couldn’t find the original source I had on the sailors. I’m like 138% sure I read that somewhere, but it might’ve been in my sleep, now, it seems.

Same document, under Cantha:

Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles, but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku’s successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

This does not reflect the deep sea dragon. We don’t really know why they’re washed ashore rather than sailed in. Best guess would be the risen fleet that had control over the sea south of that area.

perilisk.1874:

Where is the evidence that such a purification took place?

The very fact that there are not one but two dragon champions with free will – something dragon corruption removes – proves that purification of some design took place at some point in the past.

perilisk.1874:

Or to assume as all the in-game evidence suggests, that each dragon’s corruption works somewhat differently, that mordremoth’s Call is affected by distance or heavy material barriers like a magical wifi signal, and that a sufficiently powerful Mordrem, if left to grow outside of the Dragon’s influence, could develop the awareness and willpower (bearing in mind that they likely inherently share the Dragon’s “mind” affinity) to resist the Dragon’s domination?

Aside from the mordrem in Iron Marches, you have destroyers across Tyria, icebrood over in Metrica (thanks to teleportation), and risen in Fireheart Rise. Distance holds no sway over the lack of free will that dragon minions have.

Mordremoth’s Call is not corruption, per se, as Mordrem Guard still function like sylvari rather than mordrem – with the sole exception of being reborn in Blighting Trees (which is only for those which were dead in the first place, so were likely corrupted more traditionally like Faolain rather than succumbed to the Call). It is, repeatedly, described as Mordremoth’s voice whispering thoughts in such a way as for many to believe the thoughts to be their own and the Mordrem Guard are those who don’t recognize this (some, like Occam the kitten, recognize the difference in thoughts without even know that it’s an Elder Dragon buzzing around their mind and pay no heed).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We know distance isn’t a factor- we fought Mordrem in the Iron Marches, remember?

The Mordrem in the Iron Marches and at Fort Salma and Fort Concordia weren’t actually distant from Mordremoth, though. Think about it.

perilisk.1874:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We know distance isn’t a factor- we fought Mordrem in the Iron Marches, remember?

The Mordrem in the Iron Marches and at Fort Salma and Fort Concordia weren’t actually distant from Mordremoth, though. Think about it.

Depends on what you count as mordremoth. After he woke up, one can argue that the mind of mordremoth was in every vine and tendril, and so all over the world

perilisk.1874:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We know distance isn’t a factor- we fought Mordrem in the Iron Marches, remember?

The Mordrem in the Iron Marches and at Fort Salma and Fort Concordia weren’t actually distant from Mordremoth, though. Think about it.

By that argument, neither were sylvari and the Pale Tree at any point in time, since what the NPCs (Taimi, Canach, Trahearne) are calling “Mordremoth” is just his corruption and not his actual body.

And if never purified, then the sylvari and Pale Tree are part of “his corruption”.

Further, that distance argument would become completely nil by the time Mordremoth’s corruption of vines reach Fort Salma, as the vines traveled underground and were far closer to the Pale Tree (and other sylvari settlements) than the Pact Fleet were to any corruption (let alone the one Mordrem Guard in Buried Insights).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By that argument, neither were sylvari and the Pale Tree at any point in time, since what the NPCs (Taimi, Canach, Trahearne) are calling “Mordremoth” is just his corruption and not his actual body.

I’m speaking solely of the vines, which the game suggests are directly a part of or connected to the dragon’s “body” in a way that individual mordrem are not. The vines did not start spreading until after the dragon woke up, at which point the sylvari had already, in the absence of the dragon’s influence, developed Dream/Nightmare to shield their minds.

It’s true that, through the vines, the Call could have been transmitted farther than the Heart of Maguuma, but we don’t really canonically know much about what happened with Sylvari in Tyria after the Pact Invasion. We also don’t really know much about how strongly the Call was in effect before that point — Scarlet was not only close by, but exposed due to Omadd’s experiment. Aerin was also close by when he attacked, and Soundless, though it seemed like he had possibly been affected even earlier than that.

We do know that the player Sylvari don’t hear it during LS2, even though they’re nearly as close as the Pact was during it’s assault (and even though they were exposed by Omadd’s device, but nevermind), but after the disaster they can feel it very strongly, and the closer they get to Mordremoth, the harder it is to resist. It seems like the Dragon was aware of Sylvari and their role in the Pact, and that the Pact had killed Zhaitan, and it deliberately waited to turn the majority of Sylvari until it would do the most damage to its enemies. Presumably it also attacked the Pale Tree to weaken the protective effect of Dream/Nightmare in preparation for this mental assault.

perilisk.1874:

at which point the sylvari had already, in the absence of the dragon’s influence, developed Dream/Nightmare to shield their minds.

Here’s your first fallacy:

The Dream and Nightmare are actually Mordremoth’s point of entry. While it is only heavily implied to be the source of protection for sylvari’s immunity against dragon corruption, it is explicitly stated (during the HoT promotions) to be how Mordremoth spreads the Call (via the same channels that the Dream sends Wyld Hunts and Nightmare sends Dark Hunts).

perilisk.1874:

It’s true that, through the vines, the Call could have been transmitted farther than the Heart of Maguuma, but we don’t really canonically know much about what happened with Sylvari in Tyria after the Pact Invasion.

We actually do.

The Mordrem Invasion weekend had a Priory scholar explicitly mention no change in sylvari, and Canach during the prologue for Heart of Thorns mentions those very mordrem invasion events.

The entire lack of anyone saying “sylvari everywhere went crazy” also heavily implies that they did no such thing – not proof, no, but a good indication until we get something stronger than a Priory agent post-Call saying no change in a far-off sylvari community.

perilisk.1874:

Presumably it also attacked the Pale Tree to weaken the protective effect of Dream/Nightmare in preparation for this mental assault.

Not presumably, definitely. The written lines from Aerin rather implies this with the whole “attack the leader and the rest will fall”.