Guild Wars 2

Don’t fotget Star Wars. large world canon has always had a higher archy to deal with the inevitable inconsistancies. Not sure why it is suddenly a problem now.

Thanks to Konig for sharing his insights in lore at all.

BobbyStein.2315:

lakdav.3694:

Well they did move away from most of the things they said during development (see the manifesto), it only figures that interview-lore isnt sacred either.

Unless we’ve built content around something, it’s usually considered malleable from a design and lore standpoint. Occasionally we decide to go in a different direction months or years after the first ideas are documented or even talked about externally. In some cases that means what one member of staff says in an interview can change when it comes time to building a release. It’s part of our iterative process.

In short, go by what’s in the game.

In short, it’s your own kitten fault you fell for our promises and lies! Now take what we give you and be happy with it.

I really wish you had stuck to your manifesto and tried to create a better Guild Wars…

Wanderer.3248:

GW2 writers wouldn’t be the first in history to have a hard time keeping track of minor details. And authors love to revise stories, sometimes even their own. These inconsistencies are minor compared to some works of fiction.

Such errors are understandable. But in this case, we’re not talking about whether a character has brown or blue eyes. These aren’t minor changes. I’m assuming the writers at least have drawn out a basic timeline for Tyria, and that shouldn’t make it hard to keep track of these things. And in some cases, pretty big things have been outright retconned into oblivion, such as the calender and the bloodstones. Now it seems they can pretty much dismiss anything that the lore community has investigated with the excuse “Well it wasn’t in-game” or “well that character thought he knew the truth, but he was wrong”.

Dustfinger.9510:

Don’t fotget Star Wars. large world canon has always had a higher archy to deal with the inevitable inconsistancies. Not sure why it is suddenly a problem now.

Probably the Star Wars fans, the ones as dedicated as here that are mad, do lash out and are mad at those inconsistancies however small they are.

Edit: Still haven’t gotten an anwser as why it is thought that Bloodstones are retconned. And the calendar thing… 5 days? Is it really THAT kitten important? It’s been months and some of the people here can’t forget that like if it was some major lore breaking point. It’s not good, but wow, it’s not THAT bad.

Eluveitie.1290:

Probably the Star Wars fans, the ones as dedicated as here that are mad, do lash out and are mad at those inconsistancies however small they are.

In this case though, we’re not mad about small inconsistencies. We’re mad about articles like this one:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadows_in_the_Water_%E2%80%93_The_Krait

Which according to Bobby, could now be completely discarded, since it isn’t in-game. If all of the official articles released by Anet are subject to change, because they aren’t in-game, then what the point of releasing the articles? How is the lore community supposed to make any sense of it all? Do lore articles and interviews still have value then?

If you’ve spend the last 7 years gathering a wealth of Guild Wars lore, based on 60% out-of-game sources (and I’m just throwing out a rough percentage here), and suddenly the writers declare that all of that could be changed at the tip of a hat, then you can imagine why some of the lore fans are upset.

Eluveitie.1290:

Edit: Still haven’t gotten an anwser as why it is thought that Bloodstones are retconned.

Angel stated as such on the forum. She basically stated that the humans back then believed that the Bloodstones brought all magic to Tyria, but they were wrong. It’s a pretty blatant retcon to completely invalidate the GW1 manuscripts. And it makes me furious. The entire Flameseeker Prophecies revolves around this plot point. The entirely of Guild Wars 1 is about the importance of the Bloodstones, and their effect on Tyria. It has changed the landscape (like the Maguuma Jungle), causing the water to have healing abilities, and various factions are fighting over it. The White Mantle, the Mursaat, the Shining Blade. Pretty much all of the big factions in GW1 are concerned with the Bloodstones because they are this powerful. And we haven’t even found all of the Bloodstones yet, including the keystone. This was a pretty big thing. But apparently the writers have decided that in favor of a multi-race game they don’t want to deal with the human gods or the Bloodstones any more. So it has been completely thrown out the window. The entire story of GW1 was a joke apparently, based on the ignorance of the humans back then. Yeah, good job writing team. Have some bloody respect for your own lore.

Eluveitie.1290:

And the calendar thing… 5 days? Is it really THAT kitten important? It’s been months and some of the people here can’t forget that like if it was some major lore breaking point. It’s not good, but wow, it’s not THAT bad.

I’m less upset about the calender, and more about the trend. I want the writers to respect established lore, which shouldn’t be a hard thing to do. You can easily write around established lore, that’s what it is there for.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Eluveitie.1290:

Probably the Star Wars fans, the ones as dedicated as here that are mad, do lash out and are mad at those inconsistancies however small they are.

In this case though, we’re not mad about small inconsistencies. We’re mad about articles like this one:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadows_in_the_Water_%E2%80%93_The_Krait

Which according to Bobby, could now be completely discarded, since it isn’t in-game. If all of the official articles released by Anet are subject to change, because they aren’t in-game, then what the point of releasing the articles? How is the lore community supposed to make any sense of it all? Do lore articles and interviews still have value then?

If you’ve spend the last 7 years gathering a wealth of Guild Wars lore, based on 60% out-of-game sources (and I’m just throwing out a rough percentage here), and suddenly the writers declare that all of that could be changed at the tip of a hat, then you can imagine why some of the lore fans are upset.

Eluveitie.1290:

Edit: Still haven’t gotten an anwser as why it is thought that Bloodstones are retconned.

Angel stated as such on the forum. She basically stated that the humans back then believed that the Bloodstones brought all magic to Tyria, but they were wrong. It’s a pretty blatant retcon to completely invalidate the GW1 manuscripts. And it makes me furious. The entire Flameseeker Prophecies revolves around this plot point. The entirely of Guild Wars 1 is about the importance of the Bloodstones, and their effect on Tyria. It has changed the landscape (like the Maguuma Jungle), causing the water to have healing abilities, and various factions are fighting over it. The White Mantle, the Mursaat, the Shining Blade. Pretty much all of the big factions in GW1 are concerned with the Bloodstones because they are this powerful. And we haven’t even found all of the Bloodstones yet, including the keystone. This was a pretty big thing. But apparently the writers have decided that in favor of a multi-race game they don’t want to deal with the human gods or the Bloodstones any more. So it has been completely thrown out the window. The entire story of GW1 was a joke apparently, based on the ignorance of the humans back then. Yeah, good job writing team. Have some bloody respect for your own lore.

Eluveitie.1290:

And the calendar thing… 5 days? Is it really THAT kitten important? It’s been months and some of the people here can’t forget that like if it was some major lore breaking point. It’s not good, but wow, it’s not THAT bad.

I’m less upset about the calender, and more about the trend. I want the writers to respect established lore, which shouldn’t be a hard thing to do. You can easily write around established lore, that’s what it is there for.

I think he meant “external sources”, as limited to interviews and what devs say on the forums, because sometimes -and they’re at fault there- they say an opinion or their point of view at certain point, when it’s not exactly what’s going to be in the end product or what the entire team agrees to.

Documents such as the one you linked and manuals are made internally, as well as the books, and if not, they’re approved internally as well. Besides, parts of that document were included in the Tower of Nightmares dialogue too, so invalidating them for some reason would be dumb.

Bobby’s last line probably was taken too literal, in my opinion. But, it also was badly phrased by him.

-

As to Bloodstones, I do understand their importance from what’ve read in these two years, but they’re not completely neglected (in-game at least) and seeing how we’re now close to one, they might come into play again. So far, we’ve not been near them to make them that relevant. If I remember correctly, it was that french article? Yeah, that was dissapointing, but it’s not been “oficially” retconned in-game nor in the article if I recall correctly, just given less importance due to their nature and how it’s a multiple-racial-viewpoint game now, nor the calendar AFAIK has been retconned. Only mention of the extra days are in said piece of wreckage.

But, I do see the points being made and sucks to have the uncertainty that now anything said externally could mean squat.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

My earlier example of the Bloodstones was in the GW1 manuscripts. It was literally in the booklet that shipped with GW1, and they recently completely retconned it. The primary source of ALL magic in Tyria is not a minor thing to redcon.

“The forging of the world was complete. As their final act,
the gods gathered back their gift of magic from all the
races and trapped it inside a tall stone. They smashed the
stone into five parts—four equal but opposing stones of
magic, and one keystone. Without the keystone, the other
four couldn’t be reassembled.
Each of the first four stones was the embodiment of
a specific school of magic: preservation, destruction,
aggression, and denial. Magic would still exist in the
world, but the devastating power of all four types
together would never again be at the command of one
single creature. Those who accepted the gift would have
to cooperate if they intended to use it to its fullest."

Oh no wait, disregard all that. That was just what those silly humans believed way back in GW1. Pfffft, gods! Retcon!

We called this a theory (this is a human belief, and in Guild Wars 2, human beliefs are not above all things in Tyria). Then another theory occurs, led by some non-Human people, with better technology at his disposition.

It is how the world works. It is stated that The Earth is flat ? Bam, another guy has shown that it was round. Even today, there are strong theories invalidated by discoveries.

There is no shame in revisiting the text of Thadeus Lamount, who shared the human perspective of History.

I am completely okay with the idea of characters being an unreliable source of information.
I am not okay with the idea of devs being an unreliable source of information.

Crixler.2857:

I am completely okay with the idea of characters being an unreliable source of information.
I am not okay with the idea of devs being an unreliable source of information.

Well said.

While on the surface the date change isn’t really that big a deal to me (it won’t really affect my roleplaying as I don’t play a Secondborn, and having the Secondborn show up on the scene a few years earlier isn’t likely to have that drastic effects on existing lore), but I am concerned about the trend that it sets.

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

We called this a theory (this is a human belief, and in Guild Wars 2, human beliefs are not above all things in Tyria). Then another theory occurs, led by some non-Human people, with better technology at his disposition.

It is how the world works. It is stated that The Earth is flat ? Bam, another guy has shown that it was round. Even today, there are strong theories invalidated by discoveries.

There is no shame in revisiting the text of Thadeus Lamount, who shared the human perspective of History.

But you can’t just erase the main story of Guild Wars 1. Like I said, various factions in Prophecies are after the Bloodstones. Even the Mursaat, who as far as we know, aren’t even human.

To retroactively declare it all human-superstition is such a huge insult to the original story of Guild Wars Prophecies. That means that apparently everyone in GW1 was an idiot. The Shiningblade, the White Mantle, the Mursaat, the Forgotten, even the dragon prophet Glint.

No, I won’t accept that.

The bloodstones were not thrown out the window, they were merely given additional background that is less biased toward humanity and their gods. Instead of the gods “forging the world” that was actually already there when they came, and “gifting magic to the world” that was actually just sealed in the already existing single Bloodstone, it was only Abaddon ( who might i add was not mentioned by name in any of the GW1 manuscripts to avoid spoilers) who freed magic and the other gods after taking him down sealed the magic back into the Bloodstone with the help of the Forgotten, and then split it up to the several pieces we refer to as bloodstones today. Then they erased all mention of Abaddon and left the world, hence neither the world of Tyria nor the players not knowing anything about him until the release of Nightfall.

People should understand that the game is the product that has the full attention of its developers. Everything else is just advertisement tailored to specific groups of players, lore interviews being just one of many. We didnt get those blogs pre-release so that we know all there is to know about their given subject, we got them to keep us interested about a game that was not yet out. We didnt get the short stories with the Living world season 1 episodes to know exactly what happened and think that everything everyone thought in them was the absolute truth. We got them to mitigate the shortcoming of the writers who could not find a way to implement those stories into the actual releases due to resource limitations, trying to convince us that there is more in the background than what we can see and prevent us from moving away from the game.

And its not all thrown out the window. In fact much of it is slowly finding its way into the game, as you noticed in the past few releases.

This is an inconvenient transition phase, and the lore community who relied on out-of-game sources for so long (with good reason mind you) needs to slowly get back to relying on in-game information that is open to speculation and interpretation. Bobby just pulled the thorn out that we didnt notice yet (but suspected that something is wrong).

EDIT: It was the Seers who created the bloodstone, my bad.

sorry, but…

this time it is too.

Ok, we want stories. But there was sacrificing Lore … No.

We must build with inheritance. You should know cultivate a culture that built it. (and since when has Maguuma Brill fell? )

You’ve written books, built goshawks your first inheritance. It will have to continue.
Your Sacrifice Scarlet for me. it was useless. She was back in the history of diverces ways without skinned lore.
Your work has been stepped on the beautiful work you did before to sell the “low quality”. To me, that you’d stepped on, it’s the inconsistencies that you did born.

you ask what it would peel your old writings? 10-20 minutes for a quick replay, 5 min, the time to say! “Whoa I have an idea.” Go Wiki Gw1 make a small balance, and op! pass a writing!

Frankly. You should review your methods of writing, lore has can satisfy more than a billion people.

lakdav.3694:

The bloodstones were not thrown out the window, they were merely given additional background that is less biased toward humanity and their gods.

They weren’t given more background, their importance was retconned, which flies in the face of everything GW Prophecies was about. I want the writers to respect GW1 lore, and not edit things out that happen to be inconvenient.

The human gods were very important in Guild Wars, and were part of what made the world of Tyria work for me as a player. To basically take them out of the story, and banish them to a desk job is insulting. It makes it feel as if none of the great things players achieved in GW1 mattered. The chosen ones who were sacrificed on the Bloodstones by the White Mantle and Mursaat. The Lich who we battled on top of the Bloodstone in Hell’s Precipice. The prophecy by Glint. All that.

The fact that GW2 has more races to choose from, is no excuse to completely eliminate the human gods from the world that they made, and pretend like it didn’t happen. It did happen! We met their avatars for crying out loud! They aided us in our battle against Shiro and the Lich, and against Abaddon. Their avatars appeared in the Temple of Ages.

So are the writers going to retcon the entire creation of Tyria as well? Was all that just “what humans think” too? If so, we might as well pretend as if GW Prophecies never happened to begin with, but I thought this was supposed to be the sequel to that hugely successful game.

The human gods do exist in the lore. Their servants did help against Shiro (specificly the Envoys), their avatars did appear in the temple of ages, as well as the Temple of the Six gods in the Realm of Torment before we faced Abaddon himself. That was all in the game. It is still in the game’s story, in GW2’s story. It also happened 250 years before, with few and probably classified or hidden reports about what actually happened. The importance of these events and the existence of the gods is not rendered null. Titans are nowhere to be seen. Tyria is not swallowed by Torment. Because the player characters prevented it. While Kryta is free of the White Mantle. While Cantha is free of Shiro’s corruption and is supposedly strong. While Elona is conquered by Palawa Joko. Because the player characters helped these things happen. In time though, other ugly things reared their ugly heads, and that is the story the game concentrates on right now.

What was not in the game is the the gods creating Tyria. Or gifting magic to the world. We didnt see it happen. We were just told about these things. Via NPCs, scripts written by NPCs, and a biased manuscript. Is it true? Probably not. Is it true that the Forgotten created the Bloodstone? Probably. But not surely. It is another version of the story that accords more to the new evidence found in the new Tyria. Maybe a fractal will show the real creation of Tyria someday, but even that could be just a history that could have been but never was, as is the nature of the fractals.

We know the events of GW1 did happen because we as players were there, but our characters in GW2 were not. Thats why we know its true, and because the present (GW2 days) accords with what happened then and there. But the GW2 Tyria cannot be so sure about it as we are.

I shouldnt even bring in the possibility of illusions effecting what our characters and thus we as players witnessed. In a world where illusions and deceptions are rampant.

Some people have serious issues with doubt. But one shouldnt belive everything they read in fiction.

I can relate to Konig’s frustration. Hopefully development can restore a semblance of the faith we once placed in them.

Wait, what? Konig is leaving the Lore scene?
Oh how I loathe the day I’ll have to turn to Woodenpotatoes for my lore needs…

Don’t look at me like that… I need my fix

If i may add my current thoughts to this discussion of blood stones, and lore writing, and scarlet, i simply have this to say.

On blood stones, if what Bobby said is correct, then we can disregard what Angel said in the interview on them, therefore, they do still exist, after all, it wasn’t an in-game interview, last i checked. (At least, that is what i have gained from the discussions.)

On the lore writing…Well, i will say this. I do believe it is my right to ignore any and all lore changes/retcons/whatever you want to call them, so, that is what i shall do, until i see a mass of people recognizing the change in-game.

And Scarlet. I’ve had enough of her. That’s all i have to say about her. Oh, and her date of birth is ridiculous.

It will be sad to see Konig leave, but to everyone else, i would say this. I am refusing the lore changes. So why can’t you? It may seem a silly question, so please, i am open to replies, corrections, forum mails, and what have you.

Those are my current words on the subject, hopefully you will all have a nice day, or night, wherever you are.

BobbyStein.2315:

lakdav.3694:

I wouldnt even mind to rely only on lore that is presented in the game if there would be enough lore in the game. Im still hoping for some kind of codex in the hero panel.

My advice for you and others who care about the lore is to let us know what you think of the implementation in season 2. We’ve put a lot more resources into seeding each episode with loreful bits.

As always, thanks for playing and letting us know what you think.

I would like to take this moment to say that while many of us (I am specifically thinking of myself but it applies to anyone, especially on this subforum) often come across as critical or unhappy with the releases or parts of it, the fact that we are here discussing it hopefully comes across as players engaged and maybe even enjoying content (regardless of whether we positively receive specific parts of it).

There has been a lot of discussion about the last release and I can see speculation from discussions last year (specifically, but not exclusively, about sylvari and the Dream) which appears to be a deliberate focus in the story this year. It’s rewarding to see some of these discussions become more relevant.

That said, I personally find it very disheartening to see Ree’s lore line about Secondborn be discarded because someone’s created a conflict by writing Scarlet’s age (without more information, I’m sceptical of the value of doing so).

We play a game on the lore forum. Part of the game is looking through all the information we have available and discussing ideas and theories based on that. Some of the information is from the perspective of NPCs, some of it is from stories on websites or lore interviews and some of it is forum clarifications (the least preferred because they usually only occur when there is a problem). The rule that makes this game possible is that the information, the lore, is reliable. Sometimes “unreliable” information can be part of the game (that person is lieing to further their own agenda or is believably an inaccurate source due to bias/inaccurately reporting), sometimes “unreliable” information can be a “soft retcon” (Vorpp’s initial comments about Scarlet’s asuran studies compared to Taimi’s and her Prosperity room’s retcons). It’s when “unreliable” information undermines established lore (Angel’s interview about bloodstones, comments about the krait and now the Secondborn’s age) that the game becomes less rewarding to play. Why spend hours pouring over, discussing and generally investing in these details when they can so quickly change because a current writer thinks the old lore wasn’t fashionable enough (or just didn’t know about it)? When we play the game, we don’t just engage with the tunnel vision focus of the Living Story, we bring in lore from all over Tyria’s history and consuming (important) lore from outside of the game is part of that. We can’t play the lore game when the lore changes like this. Lore is either credible or it’s not, there is no halfway point that is fair to the players of the lore game. In many player’s minds, telling a good story now does not supersede the lore of a story you’ve told in the past, it undermines the lore of every story you ever tell regardless of the format.

I don’t know if Konig will truly quit because of things like this, but if he does it’s a huge blow to the lore community. Who else are we going to watch debunk every “sylvari are Mordremoth minions” thread while we eat popcorn (the other game we play on this subforum)? His posts are the most reliably sourced insights into the lore of the story.

Shiren.9532:

I don’t know if Konig will truly quit because of things like this, but if he does it’s a huge blow to the lore community. Who else are we going to watch debunk every “sylvari are Mordremoth minions” thread while we eat popcorn (the other game we play on this subforum)? His posts are the most reliably sourced insights into the lore of the story.

It would indeed be a tremendous loss for the lore community if Konig quit. But then again, what is the value of debunking said “sylvari are Mordremoth minions”-theory, when we can no longer rely on our own lore? It makes it impossible to debunk anything, if the lore can be retconned this easily. And in light of that, it does not surprise me that Konig is packing his metaphorical suitcase.

As sad as it might be, we might have to just stick with the usual “it’s canon until they say it isn’t” approach. It’s just now we can see the dark cloud of possible retcons hanging above us instead of just feeling it.

I’m just hoping that they in no way make a habit of this. I would rather have had Scarlet be a slight Mary Sue genius wise, then them playing around with the Sylvari timeline to help better explain her accomplishments.

Scarlet is so amazing, she altered timelines!!! What can’t this sylvari do!!! /s

I dunno, it feels like altering the timeline of an entire race for a single character’s story is one of the most Mary Sue things you can do.

Excuse me, but i tried to read the whole thread but i can someone explain to me about what retcon the discussion is about? That they made Scarlet a few years jounger?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A poor writer does retroactive continuities. A good writer works in a way to explain why old ‘facts’ became ‘lies’ and uses that to boost the story. A great writer puts in what they want while not destroying the established pillars of the story.

Ok i have to admit, while i am interessested in the lore i cannot say i know it very well, so i want to understand where Anet retconed anything (exept maybe Scarlet’s age).

@Konig … While I am saddened that you are leaving, I understand your reaction.

@Torsailr.8456 Well said.

My question now is what about the Scarlet short stories? In game npc’s tell us one thing and the short stories explain it differently. Which is correct. Although after thinking about it, it doesn’t really matter. Scarlet will continue to be the Slayer of Lore. Even after her death she is managing to retcon / alter our beliefs / affect the story.

In short npc’s can be wrong or misinformed or just say what they think not necessarily what is. Meanwhile out of game lore can be wiped away at any time for whatever reason.

Does any of it even matter anymore…

Derom.1205:

Excuse me, but i tried to read the whole thread but i can someone explain to me about what retcon the discussion is about? That they made Scarlet a few years jounger?

The discussion is mostly about Bobby’s post, where he says that anything outside the game should be considered subject to change, and the discussion is also about the age of the Sylvari. The problem here is not so much with the age of the Sylvari though, but that their timeline was established in the official Sylvari reveal. So the writers are directly contradicting the lore they released themselves. This along with more atrocious recent retcons, like the Bloodstones-retcon by Angel, or the calender-retcon, has several lore fans quite upset. Because if this is going to be trend now, is there any reason to still discuss lore?

I think that kind of sums it all up.

So my take away from this debacle is that any and all out of game lore set forth by group A (Jeff Grub & Ree Sosbee), or group B (Mr. Stein and company), is not to be trusted and can at any time be changed to suit the purposes of Group B (Mr. Stein and company). Does not this position make lore interviews pointless, if the contents of said interviews can’t be believed.

This situation also begs the question:

Are the current writers actually trying to write Scarlet in as the 13th born Firstborn or are they trying to alter the Sylvari timeline to futher shoe-horn Scarlet into the game.

Shiren.9532:

Scarlet is so amazing, she altered timelines!!! What can’t this sylvari do!!! /s

I dunno, it feels like altering the timeline of an entire race for a single character’s story is one of the most Mary Sue things you can do.

More along the lines of them trying to hard, and in doing so, they caused a bit of a bigger disaster.

If they just kept her timeline cluttered, she might have seemed a bit of a Sue, but we the players have already dealt with that personally. They could have left bygones be bygones, since we had almost a year to get over that. Instead, they tried to give her a believable backstory, and in the process, they mucked up the timeline because they seemingly ran out of room and caused another lore kerfuffle by basically putting a (*) by all the canon not in game.

(*): This canon might be the subject to change in the future.

I think many are missing a key point. It isn’t just that some minor date has been changed, it is the fact that things are being changed at all.

Certainly as time goes by, we discover new things about history that we did not previously know. Our mindsets must change as we discover these new things. What doesn’t change is that events either occurred or they did not. We cannot just say, “We choose not to believe that the American Revolutionary War did not happen because it doesn’t fit in with our current world paradigm.” That is ludicrous. We may discover new facts about that war not previously known, but we are in serious need of medication if we try to retcon it out of history.

Konig is right to be angry. He has dedicated a large portion of his time and life studying the lore. He has obviously been involved with development in some way to have a NDA with ANet. Now to be told that “GW history is malleable” is a huge slap in the face to him in a game he has devoted so much time and dedication to.

Changing the games lore to suit devs desires is sloppy and stupid. As was said above, work within the lore, there is absolutely no reason to change it. None. The only reason to change it would be to suit the creative egos of those telling the story now. It certainly isn’t because the community is clamoring for it.

So if we have lost Konig, we not only have lost one of the premier lore keepers of the game, we have also lost the ability to trust those people now developing the game to preserve the history and feel of the original game that gave GW2 its existence.

I’m sorry you are leaving Konig. Sad day for us all.

• Just for clarification, Konig was involved with testing, as was I. That is why we had to sign an NDA. We weren’t directly involved with development, just with testing GW1. But that just goes to show how committed Konig has been to the game.

StinVec.3621:

Lohre.9031:

Has anyone else noticed something strange behind her bookshelf thing? It looks like a tunnel.

Someone posted (I can’t find the post anymore found it) about how the house hadn’t fully loaded up for them when they approached it and they saw a cave behind the bookshelf. Also mentioned speculation on Taimi finding the cave, disappearing, and then our going in search after her. Seems like a possibility as to what may come.

Particularly since the minor at the very end of this chapter refers to Scarlet having collapsed the cave that led to the ley line initially, and theorises that she made her own entrance.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If we can expect more of such redcons, back-pedaling and revisions in the near future, is there any reason for the lore community to still archive the lore of Guild Wars? I can imagine that someone like Konig, and many other lore-fans might be asking themselves that very same question right now.

And here’s the real gutpunch: we’ve been working on exactly that. Slowly, because we’ve all got other demands on our time. But we’ve been working on it… and this is going to take a lot of the proverbial wind out of our sails.

I’ve seen a few posts supporting the ‘game is the primary source’ line, and to tell the truth… that’s exactly the way it should be. What we see in-game will naturally be the highest-ranking source for information. However, if you look back to Konig’s post – the issue is not so much that out-of-game lore got retconned, but that it got retconned casually. If we’d received a ‘we thought carefully about it, but we decided it was better in the long run to make a retcon because of reason A, reason B, and/or a reason C that we cannot disclose at that time’, that would be one thing. What we’ve been getting is messages to the effect that ArenaNet’s writing team considers anything from an out-of-game source to be something to be thrown out on a whim. It’s not that retcons are happening that’s the real problem, it’s that they’re being treated so casually: “Oh, it’s not in the game then? Don’t worry about it, it doesn’t count!”

I’m not going to explode like Thalador and Konig have. That’s not my nature. It’s more in my nature to gradually change my attitude to something – and that’s something that’s been happening for months.

To use Thalador’s restaurant analogy – the first course (Prophecies) was great. Not perfect, but an excellent start. The next couple of courses improved from there – bringing a few of their own problems along the way, sure, but all top quality meals.

Then we went into the ‘interregnum’ period of GWEN and Beyond. These courses were always intended to be nibblies and appetisers, and the cooks were limited in the ingredients they were able to use because the main course was coming… but those cooks made excellent use of what they had!

Then GW2 rolled around, and the meal it provided was… good. There were a few ingredients missing, a few spots where the spices probably could have been stirred in a little more thoroughly, but still satisfying.

S1 was gruel. Let’s be fair, it had a few tasty spots in there, but on the whole, it was rather bland.

S2… well, we’ve only taken one bite so far. But that bite shows promise. We’re starting to see hints of flavours and spices that have not been used in years…

…but this recent announcement is like hearing, just as you’re getting started into what you hope will be a meal that will pull the restaurant back into its glory days, that the head chef has thrown the recipe book from said glory days in the trash. It might well still prove to be a good meal, but it’s another hit to your confidence.

Eluveitie.1290:

Edit: Still haven’t gotten an anwser as why it is thought that Bloodstones are retconned. And the calendar thing… 5 days? Is it really THAT kitten important? It’s been months and some of the people here can’t forget that like if it was some major lore breaking point. It’s not good, but wow, it’s not THAT bad.

I can’t point you to the interview in question because right now I’m just not motivated enough to be bothered, but there was an interview where modern attitudes towards the schools of magic set by the bloodstones could be summed up as ’that’s what those silly ancient humans thought, shows how little they knew!’

Mind you, that’s an out-of-game source, so maybe that’s not valid either!

I give up.

Guild Wars has no lore now.

GW1 never happened. Nothing in the books happened.

Everyone here should just quit playing and go play something where a single interview is more Canon than game events and is set in stone and unchangeable.

I have nothing to say that hasn’t already been said- and said better by others, but I’d like to add my voice to the dissent in this thread. I appreciate the new additions to the Priory’s Library as a way to get things into the game’s canon, but honestly its very disappointing to see writers turn their backs on previously established lore instead of working with it. Its a pet peeve of mine, especially as lore and in game history is something I really enjoy learning about in a game like this.

One more thing. Why do we have a Lore & Story section at all if lore is “malleable”?

Shouldn’t we change it to “Stuff that May or May Not Have Happened” section?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Shiren.9532:

I don’t know if Konig will truly quit because of things like this, but if he does it’s a huge blow to the lore community. Who else are we going to watch debunk every “sylvari are Mordremoth minions” thread while we eat popcorn (the other game we play on this subforum)? His posts are the most reliably sourced insights into the lore of the story.

It would indeed be a tremendous loss for the lore community if Konig quit. But then again, what is the value of debunking said “sylvari are Mordremoth minions”-theory, when we can no longer rely on our own lore? It makes it impossible to debunk anything, if the lore can be retconned this easily. And in light of that, it does not surprise me that Konig is packing his metaphorical suitcase.

This is what I take away from it as well. This is also why I said this a few days ago on the forums: “Things like this are exactly why I don’t want long drawn out story lines. ArenaNet being the iterative company they are can not keep a long story line going. I am afraid another shift in direction will halt stories already in progress. Heck we are already on our 3rd different way of how story content is delivered to us. This is why I don’t get too invested in the stories anymore. The chance for a tidy conclusion like a properly told story should have is close to an impossibility. They have also recently show a propensity for plot holes, timeline inconsistencies etc. It wouldn’t shock me if some of the art in Scarlet’s apt. was thrown in there not for building lore, but just to get people talking on the forums because ArenaNet enjoys our speculations.” Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/What-happened-to-Evennia/first#post4185442

It’s best just to play this game if you like the mechanics of said game. Lore continuity is not paramount to the writers. Mechanics and delivery>lore.

jheryn.8390:

One more thing. Why do we have a Lore & Story section at all if lore is “malleable”?

Shouldn’t we change it to “Stuff that May or May Not Have Happened” section?

no, this forum and everything in it should just be deleted, immediately.

nothing ever happened anyway, right?

And all this because they decided Scarlet was born in 1304. Everything was logical if she was born in 1308 but nope, for some reason (I bet that the answer is “we couldn’t be bothered checking kitten”) she had to be born in 1304.

Anyway, what’s really the point of the lore forum anyway ? There’s no point in discussing lore events (not story, lore) since everything can be altered to fit whatever mess up they do in the future.
In game sources are prone to “first person bias” and out of game sources are prone to “not in-game”….

I honestly think they should just delete this forum, and point anyone who wishes to discuss about the living world to the correct section.

RedStar.4218:

And all this because they decided Scarlet was born in 1304. Everything was logical if she was born in 1308 but nope, for some reason (I bet that the answer is “we couldn’t be bothered checking kitten”) she had to be born in 1304.

it’s still logical. every single piece of GW lore wasn’t deleted because Scarlet was born in 1304.

but it’s no use arguing with you guys about it. if you think that all the GW Lore is deleted, and doesn’t matter, and never happened, because Scarlet is older than you thought, then so be it.

le sigh.

JMadFour.9730:

it’s still logical. every single piece of GW lore wasn’t deleted because Scarlet was born in 1304.

but it’s no use arguing with you guys about it. if you think that all the GW Lore is deleted, and doesn’t matter, and never happened, because Scarlet is older than you thought, then so be it.

le sigh.

Of course it’s still logical. After saying Ree and any other out of game sources can’t be trusted.

Is there some greater plan for her being born 4 years earlier ? For Cadeyrn to be born barely a year later than Caithe ?

I doubt there is, but hey let’s see the crazy ideas people can come up with.

narwhalsbend.7059:

Thanks for all the effort. I know this only benefits a small section of people, but any GW1 lore that could be folded into the story in a sensible way would be greatly appreciated by me and probably many others that played the first game.

The subtle mention of Bergen Hot Springs getting their healing power from the ley lines is pretty awesome. Not to overlook the obvious inclusion of Tangle Root and Dry Top, both of which were GW1 maps.

What I don’t understand is how you adopt an attitude of ‘it only counts if it’s in the game’ when you publish written pieces out of the game itself and consider them backstory or fluff. That’s entirely inconsistent.

Eluveitie.1290:

Dustfinger.9510:

Don’t fotget Star Wars. large world canon has always had a higher archy to deal with the inevitable inconsistancies. Not sure why it is suddenly a problem now.

Probably the Star Wars fans, the ones as dedicated as here that are mad, do lash out and are mad at those inconsistancies however small they are.

Edit: Still haven’t gotten an anwser as why it is thought that Bloodstones are retconned. And the calendar thing… 5 days? Is it really THAT kitten important? It’s been months and some of the people here can’t forget that like if it was some major lore breaking point. It’s not good, but wow, it’s not THAT bad.

The SW fans generally understand the different higher archies of cannon. In any SW lore forum we find them clarifying any inconsisyancies as a natural part of discussion.

therapite.3645:

What I don’t understand is how you adopt an attitude of ‘it only counts if it’s in the game’ when you publish written pieces out of the game itself and consider them backstory or fluff. That’s entirely inconsistent.

that’s not the attitude they are adopting.

Game Lore trumps books and Interviews, but that DOES NOT mean that the Books and Interviews don’t exist or “count”.

Books and Interviews are Canon, unless the Game contradicts them.

The hierarchy of Lore is Game > Fiction > Interviews. Meaning everything is important and “counts” but somethings are more important that others. In-Game Events are more Important than what happens in the Books. what happens in the Books is more important than what was said in the Interview.

I don’t see what is so hard to understand about this.

jheryn.8390:

I think many are missing a key point. It isn’t just that some minor date has been changed, it is the fact that things are being changed at all.

In any large world lore, inconcistancies are inevitable. Because they are created as we go. They aren’t based on actual event that we can just look back on. planning can help minimize it but there will always be things that need changing.

RedStar.4218:

JMadFour.9730:

it’s still logical. every single piece of GW lore wasn’t deleted because Scarlet was born in 1304.

but it’s no use arguing with you guys about it. if you think that all the GW Lore is deleted, and doesn’t matter, and never happened, because Scarlet is older than you thought, then so be it.

le sigh.

Of course it’s still logical. After saying Ree and any other out of game sources can’t be trusted.

again, le sigh.

JMadFour.9730:

again, le sigh.

And again you can’t explain their reasoning aside from “It’s Anet, they can do whatever they want”.

JMadFour.9730:

therapite.3645:

What I don’t understand is how you adopt an attitude of ‘it only counts if it’s in the game’ when you publish written pieces out of the game itself and consider them backstory or fluff. That’s entirely inconsistent.

that’s not the attitude they are adopting.

Game Lore trumps books and Interviews, but that DOES NOT mean that the Books and Interviews don’t exist or “count”.

Books and Interviews are Canon, unless the Game contradicts them.

I don’t see what is so hard to understand about this.

This. Is this the first game lore that people have started exploring? As lore continues to grow inconsitencies are inevitable. Because it is created by fallible humanity. Go figure.

JMadFour.9730:

jheryn.8390:

One more thing. Why do we have a Lore & Story section at all if lore is “malleable”?

Shouldn’t we change it to “Stuff that May or May Not Have Happened” section?

no, this forum and everything in it should just be deleted, immediately.

nothing ever happened anyway, right?

JMadFour.9730:

RedStar.4218:

And all this because they decided Scarlet was born in 1304. Everything was logical if she was born in 1308 but nope, for some reason (I bet that the answer is “we couldn’t be bothered checking kitten”) she had to be born in 1304.

it’s still logical. every single piece of GW lore wasn’t deleted because Scarlet was born in 1304.

but it’s no use arguing with you guys about it. if you think that all the GW Lore is deleted, and doesn’t matter, and never happened, because Scarlet is older than you thought, then so be it.

le sigh.

Yet you continue to argue. And continue to miss the point.

Apparently you cannot focus on the bigger picture and continue to fixate on the singular instance of the date of Scarlet’s birth instead of what such changes represent.

What people are trying to say is not that all lore has been thrown out the window, but that it can be. Do you see anywhere where anyone has said that all lore has been invalidated?

RedStar.4218:

JMadFour.9730:

again, le sigh.

And again you can’t explain their reasoning aside from “It’s Anet, they can do whatever they want”.

So JMad not working for anet is somehow proof of something?

RedStar.4218:

JMadFour.9730:

again, le sigh.

And again you can’t explain their reasoning aside from “It’s Anet, they can do whatever they want”.

I don’t know Anets reasoning, because I don’t work for Anet.

However, I do know that this isn’t a new development. The hierarchy of Lore is pretty constant in every video game. what happens in the Game supercedes all. Doesnt mean that nothing else matters, only that the Game matters more.

Dustfinger.9510:

jheryn.8390:

I think many are missing a key point. It isn’t just that some minor date has been changed, it is the fact that things are being changed at all.

In any large world lore, inconcistancies are inevitable. Because they are created as we go. They aren’t based on actual event that we can just look back on. planning can help minimize it but there will always be things that need changing.

Again, it isn’t inconsistencies that people are complaining about, it is the fact that the lead writer for ANet said lore is malleable. Meaning they can change it at a whim.

Large world lore or not, saying that continuity is meaningless is just pure disregard for the content that came before it. Many people play this game for the story solely. Many people play it for the story as well as the skills. That is why lore and consistency is important to people.