Guild Wars 2

Just a thought here.. But isn’t Abaddon stronger than the Elder Dragons?

Without even escaping imprisonment, bound to ANOTHER realm, he is able to twist the lands themselves and conjure upon an endless supply of demons.

Whereas the Elder Dragons can only corrupt the lands by physically touching them, and even then, their armies comprises solely of physical bounds (Risen for example physically have to approach you and kill an individual in order to gain control of them.)

It seems to me like the dragon threat could be evaded completely by transferring to another realm (such as the Mists), whereas Abaddon was a threat to all realms.

What’re you thoughts? Was Abaddon stronger than the elder dragons, both as an individual, and his commanding army?

In my opinion Abbaddon is stronger or should be stronger then the dragons hes a god. On top of that if he can corrupt the physical world of tyria while being chained to a wall in the underworld, im betting hes stronger. Maybe banishing them to the mists will be a option for drumond prior, since they deal with magic.

In lore, the dragons are supposed to be as strong or stronger than gods.

Maybe Abbadon is just a really powerful god? Or maybe we haven’t seen the full extent of the dragons’ power?

Lore wise, I think Abbadon was definitely stronger. Honestly, you see about the same amount of destruction in Tyria across all five dragons as you did in Elona with just one corrupted god— if not more. On the other hand a small group of adventurers was able to destroy Abbadon without much difficulty, ((story spoilers following))

So…I dunno the correct answer really, haha.

You have to consider that the dragons are neither fully awakened nor have they truly started their “attack,” if that one Tengu is to be believed.

I believe their destructive potential is fairly massive, even on par with the Human gods, but that they haven’t really let loose yet like Abbadon did.

I think it depends somewhat on how malicious the dragons are right now. Only Zhaitan (and I suppose Jormag) has shown signs, as far as I can tell, of actually trying to make incursions into the rest of Tyria from its own domain. I don’t doubt that they would eventually, but I think if all or even one of the dragons actually got up and exerted all their powers to trash somewhere, it’d be pretty trashed.

Abbadon, on the other hand, made impressive progress into the ‘real world’ of Elona and exerted quite a bit of influence, but he was (I presume) straining at do everything he could from his prison to get that far. I think we’d have to include a bunch of factors like outside help from corrupted mortals (Varesh and others – using magic, fittingly enough), natural weakening, perhaps some inattention on the part of the other gods?

As said above, in lore the Elder Dragons are stronger than the Six Gods. The human gods aren’t as omnipotent as the humans made them out to be, haha, nor are they as ancient as the dragons. That’s why I feel the need to make excuses to explain why what was meant to feel like a world-ending power in GW1 isn’t as powerful as what is meant to feel like world-ending power here!

Well, Abbadon had a lot more time to corrupt land than the dragons have today. And the land are already called Domain of Torment even before he had thrown there.

Even thinking about this, he must be a lot stronger than any individual ED, they needed a lot of power to throw Abbadon in DoT, he fought the other gods and can overpower two of them. For me its a lot of power.

@Bander
When Abbadon was destroyied he was chained, his body was lost, his army thinned, they destroy the Dam of Souls (his source of power). Well they need to weaken Abbadon before the fight and even this he was wakened fighting the other Gods. And remember, the adventurers are blessed, ascended, even one of them has the power to absorb others god powers.

I would have to agree, Abaddon, by himself, was more powerful than a single Elder Dragon. Everything we have been told says that the dragons are on par with the gods, and with Abaddon having the ability to tackle two of the gods on his own, it seems very believable that by himself he could take on the elder dragons one at a time. Of course the end result, assuming success, would be a world that looks a great deal like the Realm of Torment.

@evolverzilla

The fact that he was chained goes to show how strong he must have been, and how unrealistically stronger the heroes who beat him were. Actually, Kormir is the only one really ‘blessed’ or ‘ascended’. Elona doesn’t ever have a real ascension equivalent like Tyria and Cantha.

If you remember the mission where they attempt to rally the gods, Lyssa’s muse pretty much tells them there’s nothing they can do for them. In fact, Kormir goes on a whole rant about how they can beat Abaddon without the help of the Tyrian gods. The only thing that happens is they cryptically tell Kormir she can absorb Abaddon when they kill him…but that’s about it.

I suppose the only arguement then is that his army was thinned and they destroyed the dam of souls, but a thinned army wouldn’t nessecarily diminish someone’s individual power— especially a god. The dam is literally probably the only thing they did to weaken Abaddon, and I’m not sure this affected his physical power, I believe it was an affect on his influence in the physical plane. ((This is all from personal in game experience, so if you have other sources that say otherwise, feel free to correct me. Heck, for all I know I have the information wrong. It’s been awhile since I’ve played gw1))

All of this doesn’t really matter though, because I’m agreeing that Abaddon is stronger. :]

You guys seem to forget that even though they are “Gods” they are still beings of magic and use magic to attack and defend. The dragons feed on magic and become stronger. I can see Abbadon using his powers on any of the Elder Dragons, just for said dragon to absorb his powers and proceed to squash him.

The elementalist can deal more dps then the mesmer. But in the end the mesmer can survive longer due to having better defense mechanisms. The amount of corruption one can spread isn’t the only factor that decides how strong you are. In the end, the amount of corruption Abadon could deal was perhaps higher, but he was pretty easy to kill, even by now outdated skills and standards.

Micah Fergson is comparing GW2 skills and GW1 skills pretty good:‘Any skills I once taught pale in comparison to the power you wield, hero.’

The influence of the God’s however shouldn’t be minimised though. It was Abadon. Who gave the world the power of magic. Though sources tell of magic before the arrival of the god’s, the lore is a bit shady there, it is officially said that magic was presented to atleast the humans by Abadon. The first raw version of this magic was however too powerfull so King Doric got the God’s to limit it by creating the bloodstones and therefor the devision into shcools (one could only study one school of magic after that).

The reason however that we could defeat at least one elder dragon was that we could overcome that limitation by working together. Not only combining the power of the 4 schools, but also the combined enguinity of the 5 prominent races (with the help of other races like the Quaggan’s and the Skritt).

Curuniel.4830:

I think it depends somewhat on how malicious the dragons are right now. Only Zhaitan (and I suppose Jormag) has shown signs, as far as I can tell, of actually trying to make incursions into the rest of Tyria from its own domain. I don’t doubt that they would eventually, but I think if all or even one of the dragons actually got up and exerted all their powers to trash somewhere, it’d be pretty trashed.

Actually we’re told that the Brand is expanding by the mere presence of the Sentinels. They’re there to halt the expansion of the Brand, not just the Branded. I’m pretty sure it’s been mentioned that the Brand itself is expanding.

And Primordus is constantly attacking and pushing to break through to the surface. We only see a few Destroyers, nowhere near the extent of the Icebrood/Risen/Branded, but remember that the Dwarves conducted the Rite of the Great Dwarf and became stone, then travelled off into the Depths of Tyria to fight them where they remain to this day.

Basically, we see the effects of ED attacks everywhere we go. The game has just been a little more focused on Zhaitan and Jormag.

Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong – the dragons are definitely there, and they’re not quiescent. None of the others have been quite so deliberate and motivated about moving into other territories though. I’m happy to accept that the focus on Zhaitan is more a result of the game’s focus at the moment rather than necessarily indicative of lore, but with Zhaitan we have invading armies and lich-minions being very straight up about their intentions to invade and destroy. That’s why I said maybe Jormag – the Sons of Svanir are also kind of aggressively expanding, but that’s probably as much them (as norn) as it is Jormag.

Primordus’s influence is definitely there, but he hasn’t seemed to make major incursions on the surface yet, just the occasional spill-over. The Brand expanding is interesting, but feels to me less like Kralkatorrik making a move and more like a property of the Brand itself. Kralkatorrik has long felt like one of the most difficult and dangerous dragons to me! But maybe that’s just how awesome they make the Dragonbrand sound.

TL;DR: the other dragons are doing stuff and they’re not friendly, but they haven’t been quite so Dark Lord bent on our destruction…yet!

The difference between Abaddon and the dragons is how each applies their power. Abaddon was actively working with his followers to weaken his prison and corrupt Tyria. He had a plan, and his followers were executing that plan over time whenever they had the resources and support they needed. Mortals on Tyria itself, such as Varesh, served to compliment this, and all according to Abaddon’s design.

The Elder Dragons, however, seem to just do whatever they want. For the most part they seem intelligent, but uncaring. Most of them just want to destroy and corrupt, as opposed to dominate and conquer. The reason Zhaitan was the most prominent threat is because he was the only dragon that was actively attacking Tyria’s nations with a much more structured and organized force of minions compared to the other dragons.

Dont forget that abbadon had an alliance with 2 other sudo gods, menzies and dhuum

They weren’t Pseudo-gods, they were full fledged gods that had fallen out of favor with the other gods. I mean undoubtedly Abaddon and Dhuum were a bit weaker when we met them having been imprisoned, but in the instance that they were freed and moved to control Tyria when the dragons awoke, I could see there being epic battles on the god scale. And I do not believe that the dragons, being magic eaters, could just vacuum up the gods and call it good. Magic can fight magic, and the technology used to destroy Zhaitan controls and manipulates magic into a concentrated beam that tears Zhaitan a new hole in his body.

Narcemus.1348:

but in the instance that they were freed and moved to control Tyria when the dragons awoke, I could see there being epic battles on the god scale.

An epic god vs. dragon battle is what I wish the most. It would be painful for our PCs but they would make at least a cinematic…

Infamous Darkness.3284:

Dont forget that abbadon had an alliance with 2 other sudo gods, menzies and dhuum

Abadon was a God that had fallen out of grace. Dhuum was a god that had fallen out of grace AND was replaced by Grenth (just like Kormir replaced Abadon). So they are not pseudo gods. Menzies never pretended to be a god but is trying to replace his brother Balthazar.

And whatever Menzies is, he is at least a god-like being (similar to Grenth being half god/half human), because Menzies is half brother to Balthazar. Because of this he is similar to whatever Balthazar was before becoming a god, though we don’t know exactly what that is, or what each of their mothers were.

thank you for correcting my mistakes first of all but the point I was getting to was that it wasn’t just Abbadon’s power that was involved in Nightfall but he had assistance from Dhuum and Menzies so it doesn’t make sense to compare their combined minght ( in creating nightfall) to that of one dragon.

Dreamwalker.3617:

In lore, the dragons are supposed to be as strong or stronger than gods.

Maybe Abbadon is just a really powerful god? Or maybe we haven’t seen the full extent of the dragons’ power?

Abaddon was able to take on up to 3 of the other gods in a fight. It took the combined might of all of them to lock him away. To kill him, it took the combined might of all five other gods (in the form of blessings) plus a battalion of humans plus him being completely chained up. To say that he was a really powerful god is a gross understatement.

Now consider the mists and the multiverse. There are only 6 gods for all the servers/realms/alternate Tyrias. And there are 6 dragons in each realm, meaning there are 52 worlds x 6 dragons, that is 312 elder dragons. Since we killed Zaitan, there are only 260 left. Anyway… Abaddon was able to corrupt yahai in every realm of the multiverse, and the dragons did only corrupt their own realm.
The power of the dragons does compare to the power of the gods. I mean 312 elder dragons against 6 gods is a tough fight. The gods must rely on the own worlds fighting the dragons since there are way too many.
Or maybe the dragons’ existence transcends the multiverse, meaning they’re only 6 of them, but present on every version of Tyria as pentadimensional beings. Not likely…
Abaddon is way more powerful than any separate dragon, he’s way more powerfull than the sum of all the ED of any separate Tyria.

Abbadon had much more influence than Nightfall. The titans were his servants who essentially corrupted the charr. The Flame Legion destroyed Ascalon and are still around to this day. The Vizier who destroyed Orr in the Cataclysm was an Abaddon follower converted by one of his demons. He also seeks to fulfill the flameseeker prophecies as the Lich which was to open the Door of Komalie and release the titans, no doubt still under influence of Abaddon. One of Abaddon’s demons was also to blame for Shiro’s betrayal of the emperor and consequently the Jade Wind upon his death.

In essence, Abaddon is the reason for the events of Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. It may not be raw elemental power such as the dragons have, but that is a lot of influential power while being imprisoned. None of the dragons compare to that at the time being.

well the dragons are on par with the gods

A reminder that the brand exists.
Kralk could have glassed the entire continent in a day if he wanted to. Abbadon was taking his kitten sweet time corrupting elona.

The dragons arent simply here to destroy everything and leave. They eat magical items remember? They need races to continue to exist in order to propagate the creation of these items. Abaddon was all about corrupting elona, that’s why he seems powerful. The dragons are basically holding back because killing us all isnt the best choice. If they wanted us truly gone like Abaddon did, tyria would be a blasted crater right about now.

Also abaddon was the god of magic. It makes sense that he’d be the strongest, as the other gods literally took his power afterwards (air, fire, water, earth, ETC they stole that kitten from him)

NolanP.7604:

well the dragons are on par with the gods

How sure are we about that? The Elder Dragons are still physical beings, not divine in nature. Plus we sorta took Zhaitan down with a pretty fireworks show…

Abaddon may have been stronger than Zhaitan, but it’s worth noting that canonically? Both are dead.

Tyrians are stronger than anything when they put their whole selves into doing something.

Which was the whole point of the speech that the Avatar of Lyssa gave at the end of the Gate of Madness Cinematic (although this was just humanity, not all of Tyria).

Abbadon is twice is strong as other gods. So he is probably stronger than 1 dragon if he is unchained.

He is stated to have been able to take on two of the gods at once. This doesn’t necessarily mean he’s stronger. I mean he was the god of secrets, which means he was likely a heck of a lot smarter. He knew a lot that others didn’t, which could be attributed to what would have made him be able to stand up to any two of the others.

Now, I know it could honestly go either way, and I personally like to believe that Abaddon is kind of like a huntsman type god. He would go into the mists and hunt down other god-like beings, obtaining their powers and knowledge and making himself eventually more powerful than the rest. Sadly, the only possible thing that could lead to this being somewhat true are the non-canon descriptions of places existing in the Realm of Torment such as Arachnia. It is merely a fun theory that I like to throw out there every once and a while. The point though is, we don’t know the full extent of the situation, for a Battle Royale between gods we know very little. Their whole brain wipe/hiding everything Abaddon related kinda took a toll.

Not entirely so Narcemus:

Abaddon was the mightiest of the gods, and for a while, the war went in his favor.

This comes from a semi-recently “found” article from the Asian sites, semi-recently translated into English.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76125-why-abaddon-turned-evil/page__st__30#entry2100579

Hmm, I read that article fully, and I find it very interesting. I would be curious to see where they found the descriptions of his form before and after his madness. I will notice that at least one item within the article is outright wrong. The article specifically talks about the gods creating the bloodstones, which we know was actually an act by the Seers. I’m not saying the whole article is wrong, much of it seems to have been pulled from in-game lore, but it is definitely not a perfect record.

You do realize that, while only recently translated, that is from Nightfall beta origins, right?

Things have changed since, and it’s no more “wrong” than the History of Tyria saying the same. In that it was right at the time of the writing, but has since been retconned with the guise of “human history was wrong.”

I fully understand this, but since we do not have the full origins of the text, and because of the incorrectness that human history has, it must be taken with a grain of salt. I’m not saying I refuse to believe that Abaddon was more powerful than the other gods (individually), my second statement actually mentions my theory as to how he got that way, but I’m merely stating that being able to defeat any two gods doesn’t, in and of itself, mean that he is physically or magically stronger than them anymore than an assassin slaying two warriors in their sleep makes the assassin more physically strong than them.

Trahearne is stronger than Abaddon.

Abaddon’s army came from the fact he had ahold of the forge of creation (I think it was called) which allowed him to make his demons. As for the Elder Dragon’s their power is more of a primal thing, it’s like fighting the building blocks of the world. Don’t forget what a god is, has not really been defined as the Charr (I think it was them atleast) saw the human gods as just really strong humans. So there’s not really a clear answer to this.

I don’t think so

they way I see it is that Tyria is a world rich with Magic
and the 6 Gods chose to inhabit Tyria because of this
manipulating magic and giving it to the Races of the world

To me the Gods seem to be beings of immense magical power and their only weakness seems to be Magic

Abbadon was Slain by Humans using Magic which proves one thing
the Human Gods can be destroyed
and we know from the Wiki that the gods are not omniscient and neither are they omnipotent
meaning that they are not all knowing and their power has limits

Now the gods first act on Tyria was to create the City of Arah which was built specifically in a area with massive magical energy (on top of a Elder Dragon)
so we know from that the the Gods are very attuned to Magic as well

So again the Gods and Magic seem to be connected

another thing that supports this is that the Gods stripped their favored Race (The Jotun) of their Magical abilities fearing that the Jotun would use their Magic against them

this clearly states that the Gods in some way fear magic and supports what im saying here

now from what we know about the Elder Dragons is that they too are beings of immense Magical power and further more they consume Magic
they also have the ability to corrupt all flesh and blood based beings turning them into monsters
and its also known that the Dragons pre date the Gods since they have always existed on Tyria

So my short answer to this would be No
The Dragons are much older and likely more powerful than they Gods
if one single race was enough to make the Gods fear them then the thought of 6 Ancient, Magic consuming Dragons with the ability to corrupt your servants and turn them against you would be terrifying to a immortal being
if anything I’d say the Gods are terrified of the Elder Dragons

Vaarq.6497:

Abaddon’s army came from the fact he had ahold of the forge of creation (I think it was called) which allowed him to make his demons. As for the Elder Dragon’s their power is more of a primal thing, it’s like fighting the building blocks of the world. Don’t forget what a god is, has not really been defined as the Charr (I think it was them atleast) saw the human gods as just really strong humans. So there’s not really a clear answer to this.

I’ve heard no such thing as a “forge of creation” – demons spawn from the Mists themselves, and from demonic broodmother-like entities such as the Dreadspawn Maw. Though technically, Abaddon’s army was solely the margonites, as the torment demons were merely in alliance/working with him (just as they were with Dhuum(’s forces)), and Margonites were formerly human.

The charr view the gods as really strong beings – not necessarily humans. And that’s what they are – the Elder Dragons too, technically. But the Six Gods have something the Elder Dragons do not: indestructible power. When Abaddon was killed, his power (which he got from his predecessor) threatened to go rampant until Kormir absorbed it. When Zhaitan died, there was no such power.

To me, it seems more like the Elder Dragons are formed from the building blocks of reality (that is, from the elements of nature) whereas the Six Gods contain parts of the building blocks of nature. As their power is far different from the Elder Dragons, in that it is stronger (while the gods themselves may not be so) – both in its indestructibility and in how the gods shine brightly, blinding those who look upon them directly long enough (compared to the sun).

Teratus.2859:

Abbadon was Slain by Humans using Magic which proves one thing
the Human Gods can be destroyed
and we know from the Wiki that the gods are not omniscient and neither are they omnipotent
meaning that they are not all knowing and their power has limits

This is somewhat debatable. To put it in Kerrsh’s words: the gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain. Meaning that Abaddon, and then Kormir, was/is all-powerful in knowledge; Dwayna is all-powerful in life; Dhuum, and then Grenth, was/is all-powerful in death (this may explain why Dhuum survived being supplanted, and why he calls himself death itself, and claims that he cannot be killed), etc.

Meaning only the god of knowledge would be all powerful; only the gods of life and death have a chance at immortality, etc.

Though this is still just at implication stages.

Teratus.2859:

Now the gods first act on Tyria was to create the City of Arah which was built specifically in a area with massive magical energy (on top of a Elder Dragon)

There’s heavy implication that Arah existed when Dwayna first stepped foot on the world – note: Dwayna was the first of the Six Gods on Tyria.

Teratus.2859:

another thing that supports this is that the Gods stripped their favored Race (The Jotun) of their Magical abilities fearing that the Jotun would use their Magic against them

This coming from one of said “favorite race” that happens to be a very prideful race and this individual is wrong on several points he claims. Thruln the Lost is hardly a reliable source. Why?

The Six Gods didn’t take magic from the jotun – the seers did. The loss of magic didn’t cause the jotuns to fall – civil wars caused by greed and pride did. Humans were not unknown to the gods until they built kingdoms on Tyria – they were brought to the world by the Six Gods after all.

It should also be noted that Thruln never says what gods he’s talking about – and there’s at least 3 other gods in the world: Koda, Great Dwarf, and Mellaggan.