Guild Wars 2

The giant drill dominating the western horizon of Lion’s Arch is very, very big – so big, it has led a number to question: Will Mordremoth crawl out of the hole it is drilling? After all, the Six built Arah atop Zaithan. Prior to the revelation that an entity has been influencing Scarlet Briar, forum members probably would not have entertained the notion that an Elder Dragon slept beneath the foundations of Tyria’s greatest city. Mordremoth, coined “the Hidden Dragon” by Wooden Potatoes, was widely believed to be lost to the westernmost regions of the Maguuma jungle. He remained so obscure, that the only real in-game evidence as to his existence was the account of ancient jotun stelae and the abilities of Subject Alpha (of the Crucible of Eternity fame). Prominent posters theorised that although Mordremoth himself had not yet been revealed, his presence dominated the sylvari Dream as the Nightmare. The credible evidence for this theory, ironically, was not the oft-cited nightmare beast of the sylvari personal story starter instance; rather, it was the testimony of Gamarien and the presence of Nightmare hounds and husks in the Crucible of Eternity’s Zone Green. These two pieces of evidence, no matter how strong, have traditionally been the only information provided to us suggesting that an Elder Dragon other than Zaithan is behind the Nightmare. As it stands, even now theory-crafters must concede that the origins of Nightmare, aside from the fall of Faolain, do not immediately point to the work of Elder Dragons. Cadeyrn can hardly be said to have been in the pocket of any Elder Dragon, especially when we consider that he is never openly stated to have found anything like the great darkness that Caithe and Faolain did. Of course, a valid question we must ask to clarify this point is: Did Cadeyrn turn to Nightmare before or after Caithe and Faolain encountered the great darkness? If before, it further weakens the argument associating Nightmare with Elder Dragons; if after, it suggests that Cadeyrn may well have encountered the darkness through the Dream. But that is a matter for developmental input. Returning to the matter at hand: Why do we believe that Mordremoth is slumbering under Lion’s Arch?

I suppose the main thrust of my concerns must be directed at those who wish to maintain that Mordremoth could both be sleeping under Lion’s Arch and also orchestrating the Nightmare within the Dream. To reconcile such a viewpoint, we must first draw some conclusions. To begin, we must concede that the Maguuma jungle previously reached far further eastward than we may have realized. This isn’t hard to imagine. Between the last rise of the Elder Dragons and their current, some ten-thousand years have passed. In that time, civilization developed within continental Tyria and much of the forest was cleared for agriculture. Furthermore, the ancient Great Jungle Wurm of the Bloodtide Coast, recently awakened, suggests that at one stage Maguuman jungle wurms were distributed throughout the general area. The partially-consumed husks regurgitated by the wurm further confirm this, given that they are now (apparently) native only to north-western Caledon Forest. Their migration westward suggests that their local habitat was disrupted; the wurms moved with them.

So why am I concerned? The Elder Dragons are territorial. On an intuitive level, this makes sense. The in-game distribution of Elder Dragon minions is not universal; Risen aren’t seen in the Dragonbrand, Icebrood aren’t seen in the western Maguuma. Sure, the Elder Dragons can send their minions too and fro – during player-characters’ personal stories Zaithan masterminds a number of strikes against remote targets, such as his attempted storm of the Priory – but one’s minions never really permanently dominate the landscape of another’s. So placing Mordremoth under Lion’s Arch introduces problems for theorists trying to link him to the sylvari Nightmare. How so? For starters, the thorn vine that we observe at Briarthorn Den can hardly be seen to be coming from the direction of Lion’s Arch, nor has any resident of Lion’s Arch ever laid eyes upon a minion of Mordremoth roaming the limits of their city. Furthermore, attacks on the Pale Tree by Nightmare Courtiers are almost entirely directed from Twilight Arbor. Falias Thorp and Caer Astorea are both south of Twilight Arbor; the attacks of Nightmare sylvari upon these locations is accompanied by new growth from the vine which can be seen and cleared from the areas (they are the Nightmare thorns growing from the ground during both attacks). The point is that the Nightmare’s origins do not appear to point eastward; rather, north-westward. Skeptics may counter that Mordremoth has infiltrated the Dream through the leyline network. The direction of the thorn vine’s growth doesn’t mean anything, since an Elder Dragon’s influence is not physical as much as magical. After all, Mordremoth is the only Elder Dragon still sleeping and it makes sense that sleeping Elder Dragons would affect other sleeping beings. However, Mordremoth isn’t the only Elder Dragon that has ever slept, especially during the Dream. Kralkatorrik slept whilst the Pale Tree dreamed, yet no one has ever considered him a candidate for the antagonist behind the Nightmare. Additionally, an aspect of Zaithan appears in the Dream even though the Elder Dragon of the Orrian undead is both awake and located many miles away in Orr. Of course, Zaithan’s minions encroached into the Caledon Forest, so it could be argued that Zaithan was only indirectly responsible for the presence of his aspect in the Dream.

As you can imagine, I have reservations about the idea that Mordremoth is sleeping beneath our beloved Lion’s Arch. Another of those reservations is a response to the suggestion that sylvari were originally intended to be minions of Mordremoth. This is a an easy idea to posit, but a difficult argument to sustain. Previously, I highlighted the two key pieces of in-game evidence confirming the existence of a sixth Elder Dragon: The first, ancient jotun stelae; the second, the name of an attack executed by Subject Alpha (in the context of the dungeon the Crucible of Eternity). I want to begin my scrutiny of the idea that sylvari are meant to be minions of Mordremoth by examining the testimony of the jotun stelae. That the jotun identified six Elder Dragons means that either they or another race once encountered either all six of the Elder Dragons themselves or their minions. This means that the methods of corruption utilized by the Elder Dragons millenia ago haven’t really changed: after all, if they weren’t a threat, no one would know about them and the main way in which they constitute a threat is through their corruption of lesser beings. Therefore, it is most unusual that Mordremoth’s minions haven’t been encountered yet. He obviously knows how to corrupt red-blooded beings, since sylvari are the newest race (that we know of) to come to Tyria and even if we wish to argue that they are meant to fight the Elder Dragons the idea of races migrating through the Mists isn’t that strange when we consider that the Six brought humanity to Tyria in this manner. In other words, if sylvari truly are the newest race to emerge in Tyria, during the last Elder Dragon rising Mordremoth did not corrupt sylvari, may have corrupted other plant beings and probably corrupted red-blooded beings like jotun, ogres, norn and charr. Proponents of the theory that the Blighted Husks of the north-western Caledon Forest are Mordremoth’s minions may respond that during the last Elder Dragon rise Mordremoth corrupted husks by blighting them and may not have corrupted anything else. However, there are problems with associating the blighting of growth in Wychmire Swamp with Mordremoth. For if Blighted Husks have been corrupted by Mordremoth, what have Flame-touched Husks been corrupted by? Primordus? Are Torrential Husks the work of “Bubbles” (the Deep Sea Dragon)? How do Toxic Husks fit in? Is their corruption another example of Mordremoth’s handiwork? And what about Summoned Husks? Partially-consumed Husks? In the argument associating Blighted Husks of Wychmire Swamp with Mordremoth’s corruption, the only solid position supporters of this theory can maintain is that which considers husks in general Mordremoth’s minions, regardless of any superfluous adjective labels ascribed to them. Even then, when it becomes evident that mature Maguuman Jungle Wurms eat husks, as both the Wychmire Swamp meta-event and the Triple-Threat Bloodtide Coast meta-event demonstrate, it seems unusual that we would consider either Great Jungle Wurm a champion of an Elder Dragon when, as far as any theory thus far has maintained, Elder Dragons and their champions do not feed on physical food, but magic. Husks aren’t magic – they’re physical. It’s back to the drawing-board for all of us. But I digress.

What are we to make of the corruption seen during the Tower Of Nightmares Living Story chapter then? It is short-sighted to argue that Mordremoth needs new methods to corrupt living beings. He already knows how to corrupt red-blooded beings of Tyria. (Indeed, if you wish to challenge this point, consider that the majority of Tyria’s scholars consider that Subject Alpha was imbued with Mordremoth’s corruption, demonstrating the efficacy of Mordremoth’s corruptive model). Furthermore, although Scarlet Briar resorted on multiple occassions to deceit in order to gain the assistance of the various groups forming her alliances, she did not corrupt the members of the Molten Alliance with anything like the toxic spores encountered in the Kessex Hills. To make matters worse, those seeking to achieve the toxic spore clean-up achievement were informed that the spore had not infected everything, only high-ranking enemy NPCs. Finally, the corruption was not permanent – an antitoxin to the toxin was developed, demonstrating that this “corruption” could be cleansed using scientific methods. That is to say, the corruption was not magical in the same way as Elder Dragon corruption is considered to be. (A counter to this idea is that the Forgotten were able to cleanse Glint of her corruption; the Pact were able to cleanse a Risen chicken in Arah of it’s corruption; the mysterious Quaggan plague of the Bloodtide region can be cured by Priory medical teams if they can do so before the host expires. These examples challenge the traditional idea that Elder Dragon corruption cannot be countered in a scientific way. But this is a matter for another time and further research by Tyria’s brightest and finest.)

To conclude: The simple reality is that all six of the Elder Dragons have already found ways to corrupt red-blooded beings; at least one of the Elder Dragons we have already fought has had a hand in the development of the sylvari Nightmare, primarily due to the physical proximity of his minions to Caledon Forest, his horrors which sylvari encountered in Orr, his attempts at understanding and corrupting sylvari and the general prevalence of his presence throughout the Sea Of Sorrows region; the Dream has endured the slumber of more than just Mordremoth – at least one (arguably even two) other Elder Dragon(s) have slumbered whilst the Pale tree slept, probably at major leyline intersections, without a word about their possible influence being uttered by proponents of the pro-“sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions” theory. Although I do not wish to say “never”, I do wish to point out that it will be surprising to see Mordremoth crawl out of any hole other than that which he himself has made, a hole unlikely to be beneath Lion’s Arch. If he does awaken as a result of Scarlet’s current activites, it will probably be in the same way that the ancient Great Jungle Wurm of the Bloodtide Coast was awakened by Scarlet – as the unintended side-effect of a really bad thumper-now-come-drill-induced headache.

It’s already been confirmed that what’s under LA are ley lines. Many times.

Mordremoth is heavily hinted and known to have influence in the Maguuma Jungle.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s already been confirmed that what’s under LA are ley lines. Many times.

Mordremoth is heavily hinted and known to have influence in the Maguuma Jungle.

There was an intersection of ley lines beneath Orr (that’s why Orrian magic was so much more powerful than any other human magic). You know what else there was? An Elder Dragon. Just sayin’.

Where did you ever see it mention that there was an intersection of ley lines beneath Orr? Because that’d be news to me. Plus, if that were the case then why aren’t people in Lion’s Arch so magically evolved like Orrians were? Logical fallacy. Orr was indeed a magical hotspot, but nothing indicates that it was caused by ley lines, and places of ley line intersections don’t function like Orr.

Doesn’t change the fact that when Colin said which Elder Dragon could be next and mentioned the jungle dragon (aka whom we all call Mordremoth) he said going into the Maguuma. This means that Mordremoth is either within or on the other side of the Maguuma.

Just sayin’.

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s already been confirmed that what’s under LA are ley lines. Many times.

Mordremoth is heavily hinted and known to have influence in the Maguuma Jungle.

There was an intersection of ley lines beneath Orr (that’s why Orrian magic was so much more powerful than any other human magic). You know what else there was? An Elder Dragon. Just sayin’.

I think you are confusing ley lines with the Artesian Waters. You might be able to speculate there might be a connection between the two, but there isn’t really enough information about them to make a solid argument either way.

Plus, the Artesian Waters is on a magnitude on to itself. There was so much magic pouring off it, that it was able to be felt through the Mists and caught the Six’s attention. Lion’s Arch’s ley line convergence is no where near that level.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Where did you ever see it mention that there was an intersection of ley lines beneath Orr? Because that’d be news to me. Plus, if that were the case then why aren’t people in Lion’s Arch so magically evolved like Orrians were? Logical fallacy. Orr was indeed a magical hotspot, but nothing indicates that it was caused by ley lines, and places of ley line intersections don’t function like Orr.

Doesn’t change the fact that when Colin said which Elder Dragon could be next and mentioned the jungle dragon (aka whom we all call Mordremoth) he said going into the Maguuma. This means that Mordremoth is either within or on the other side of the Maguuma.

Just sayin’.

You seem to have some knowledge of how places of ley line intersections work that you’re not sharing with us, then. All we really know is that ley lines are how magic is channelled across the globe – Orr, then, as a magical hotspot, must have a lot of ley line activity in its vicinity.

You could think of this a completely different way, if you wanted. You could think of them as sort of field lines, which never cross each other. The untrained eye might say, for example in an electric field, they “intersect” at a point charge, but actually what is happening there is that they are diverging from that point. In the same way, I think it’s perfectly possible that what we’re seeing is not an intersection of ley lines but a source of them – a sleeping Elder Dragon, bleeding magic out into the world.

Why the Krytans weren’t as magical as Orrians, then, isn’t for me to say. Maybe the ley lines beneath Lion’s Arch were buried much deeper (hence the need for the Breachmaker), whereas Orr’s were closer to the surface (the Artesian Waters). Who knows. More realistically, at the time the Orrian History Scrolls were added to the game, it probably hadn’t been decided on by the devs that there were an intersection of ley lines beneach Lion’s Arch (hell, maybe the idea of ley lines itself was not yet well-developed). Sure, Lion’s Arch not being super magical creates a small contradiction, but that is far outweighed by the coolness of a dragon sleeping beneath it.

Colin’s comment on the jungle dragon (incidentally, from March 2013, likely long before the ending of LW season 1 was decided upon) suggests that there is activity related to Mordremoth in the Maguuma. This doesn’t necessarily preclude Mordremoth from sleeping beneath Lion’s Arch – its minions, the sylvari ( ) have been active in the Maguuma for a while, so it could be referring to that. And there’s nothing to suggest, either, that Mordremoth plans on staying in Lion’s Arch. It very well could fly off to the Maguuma upon awakening, and we’d be “going into the Maguuma” to fight it, just like Colin said.

I dispute the idea that a dragon sleeping under yet another city would be “cool”. Elder Dragons bleed off magic when they slumber. The asura were able to detect and tap it. The gods were able to detect and tap it. Neither group knew what they were tapping, but they knew there was a massive amount of magic bleeding out of that spot. For LA to have somehow missed that for the centuries it’s been around would take the Idiot Ball trend of recent releases to a whole other level.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I dispute the idea that a dragon sleeping under yet another city would be “cool”. Elder Dragons bleed off magic when they slumber. The asura were able to detect and tap it. The gods were able to detect and tap it. Neither group knew what they were tapping, but they knew there was a massive amount of magic bleeding out of that spot. For LA to have somehow missed that for the centuries it’s been around would take the Idiot Ball trend of recent releases to a whole other level.

It’s already too late for that – whether or not LA has ley lines running beneath it is no longer a matter of dispute. There’s a ridiculous amount of magic chillin’ beneath the city, which up until now apparently nobody has noticed, so by adding that plot point ANet retroactively set the idiot ball rolling (so to speak) regardless of whether or not there is an Elder Dragon beneath the city.

Tamias.7059:

You seem to have some knowledge of how places of ley line intersections work that you’re not sharing with us, then.

I am making no such claim, though I cannot say the same for you.

Tamias.7059:

All we really know is that ley lines are how magic is channelled across the globe – Orr, then, as a magical hotspot, must have a lot of ley line activity in its vicinity.

Right on the first part, wrong on the second part. Let me bullet point it out for you:

• Orr was, indeed, a magical hotspot. But it had an Elder Dragon radiating magic into its surroundings for about 10,000 years (to the best of our knowledge). While Zhaitan wasn’t the only source of magic, the other source of magic was the Artesian Waters – why, is unknown, but ley lines are – based off of the big kitten drill Scarlet’s using – deep underground.
• The Central Transfer Chamber was also a magical hotspot, no indication of ley lines exist. It had Primordus, and Primordus was why it was a magical hotspot.
• Two places are known to be intersections of ley lines – Thaumanova and Lion’s Arch. Neither location acts similar to Orr. And think: probes were in Orr, if Orr was just as big – if not bigger in order to create the natural magical adeptness amongst Orrians – then the energy probes would have gone off there rather than just at Lion’s Arch.

A location of multiple ley line intersections does not function the same as a magical hotspot, given the fact that Lion’s Arch and Thaumanova do not have anything in similarity to Arah/Artesian Waters.

Tamias.7059:

You could think of this a completely different way, if you wanted. You could think of them as sort of field lines, which never cross each other. The untrained eye might say, for example in an electric field, they “intersect” at a point charge, but actually what is happening there is that they are diverging from that point. In the same way, I think it’s perfectly possible that what we’re seeing is not an intersection of ley lines but a source of them – a sleeping Elder Dragon, bleeding magic out into the world.

Who’s the one that “seems to have some knowledge of how places of ley line intersections work that you’re not sharing with us” now?

Because all indications point ley lines to function akin to water and ocean currents. Which functions vastly different than field lines (though I’m no expert in the field so I may very well be wrong here).

Tamias.7059:

Sure, Lion’s Arch not being super magical creates a small contradiction, but that is far outweighed by the coolness of a dragon sleeping beneath it.

It doesn’t make a contradiction at all, if one considers the notion that there’s no ley line intersection beneath Arah.

And I disagree that the “coolness of a dragon sleeping beneath” Lion’s Arch would outweigh such a major contradiction.

Tamias.7059:

Colin’s comment on the jungle dragon (incidentally, from March 2013, likely long before the ending of LW season 1 was decided upon) suggests that there is activity related to Mordremoth in the Maguuma. This doesn’t necessarily preclude Mordremoth from sleeping beneath Lion’s Arch – its minions, the sylvari ( ) have been active in the Maguuma for a while, so it could be referring to that. And there’s nothing to suggest, either, that Mordremoth plans on staying in Lion’s Arch. It very well could fly off to the Maguuma upon awakening, and we’d be “going into the Maguuma” to fight it, just like Colin said.

Now it’s painfully plain that you’re trying to get on my nerves, mister winking smiley face.

I suppose one can argue such a flimsy argument, for the sake of stubbornness in their own hypothesis. But you have to keep something in mind: the Elder Dragons have only held influence while hibernating where they and their champions slept. Yet there’s nothing in Kryta… but something in the Maguuma.

Tamias.7059:

It’s already too late for that – whether or not LA has ley lines running beneath it is no longer a matter of dispute. There’s a ridiculous amount of magic chillin’ beneath the city, which up until now apparently nobody has noticed, so by adding that plot point ANet retroactively set the idiot ball rolling (so to speak) regardless of whether or not there is an Elder Dragon beneath the city.

The difference is that magic in the ley lines is continuously moving – hence the comparison to currents. It isn’t static, thus it may not hold the same effect as the Central Transfer Chamber or Arah’s magical hotspots. Magic may not even be passing through under Lion’s Arch the entire time.

GW’s definition of ley lines is the “path of least resistance” (the phrase actually used to describe ley lines) that magic travels through. So nothing says that magic is constantly moving through the ley lines.

No, he isn’t. It’s been pointed out over and over again that there is NOT a dragon sleeping under Lion’s Arch. Konig already pointed out all the flaws alone in just that theory.

We do KNOW that there is an intersection of ley lines under LA, just like Thaumanova. Does that mean it is a magical area/hotspot? No, but it means that a bunch of magic flows beneath it. What Scarlet is going to do with it? We will wait and see.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Right on the first part, wrong on the second part. Let me bullet point it out for you:

• Orr was, indeed, a magical hotspot. But it had an Elder Dragon radiating magic into its surroundings for about 10,000 years (to the best of our knowledge). While Zhaitan wasn’t the only source of magic, the other source of magic was the Artesian Waters – why, is unknown, but ley lines are – based off of the big kitten drill Scarlet’s using – deep underground.
• The Central Transfer Chamber was also a magical hotspot, no indication of ley lines exist. It had Primordus, and Primordus was why it was a magical hotspot.
• Two places are known to be intersections of ley lines – Thaumanova and Lion’s Arch. Neither location acts similar to Orr. And think: probes were in Orr, if Orr was just as big – if not bigger in order to create the natural magical adeptness amongst Orrians – then the energy probes would have gone off there rather than just at Lion’s Arch.

A location of multiple ley line intersections does not function the same as a magical hotspot, given the fact that Lion’s Arch and Thaumanova do not have anything in similarity to Arah/Artesian Waters.

All perfectly explainable if, as I said, we think of (sleeping) Elder Dragons as sources of magic. Then, using the fluid analogy, the Artesian Waters (appropriately) would be a spring where the ley lines have led to the surface. Never mind the fact that the ley lines in Lion’s Arch are buried deep underground – there’s no reason why things can’t be different in the case of Orr (in fact it would explain why there were so many powerful magic users there, compared to Kryta). It’s looking good for our model if we are able to explain unknown phenomena in terms of known ones. By assuming ley lines point outward from Elder Dragons, things start making more sense – that’s a thumbs up.

Same logic could apply to the Central Transfer Chamber. There was no “sign” of ley lines because nobody at ANet had thought of them back then (or, if you like, no real research had been done on ley lines until the Inquest’s recent experiments). And ley lines can be, as you say, deep underground, which is exactly where the Central Transfer Chamber was. Maybe, even, the asura gate network utilised Primordus in a deeper way than just drawing power from it, transporting users along ley lines (after all, in this model the network was centred at a point the ley lines diverged from). But I digress.

As for the Thaumanova, neither location acts quite the same as Orr, but would you say that Thaumanova and Lion’s Arch are remotely similar, either? Out of the three, I would actually say that Thaumanova has most in common with Orr, with dragon energy (aka magic) all over the place. You have to remember, as well, that Thaumanova is in the state that it’s in due to the research that took place there. We don’t really know what that area was like before the disaster, but I’ll bet it wasn’t nearly as chaotic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Who’s the one that “seems to have some knowledge of how places of ley line intersections work that you’re not sharing with us” now?

Because all indications point ley lines to function akin to water and ocean currents. Which functions vastly different than field lines (though I’m no expert in the field so I may very well be wrong here).

I’m not an expert in hydrodynamics either, but you can model fluid flow as a vector field. The physics is a little different but I’m pretty sure the analogy still holds.

In any event, this is just a model, an idea. I never said anything as bold as “places of ley line intersections don’t function like Orr”, which is, um, exactly what you said.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It doesn’t make a contradiction at all, if one considers the notion that there’s no ley line intersection beneath Arah.

And I disagree that the “coolness of a dragon sleeping beneath” Lion’s Arch would outweigh such a major contradiction.

Cool from a dev’s perspective (and from the perspective of a player who doesn’t think too hard about lore), I mean. If you’re a narrative designer, getting to blow up the main hub city and wake up a dragon all in one go is an exciting storytelling opportunity, as well as an exciting way to end a story arc.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Now it’s painfully plain that you’re trying to get on my nerves, mister winking smiley face.

I suppose one can argue such a flimsy argument, for the sake of stubbornness in their own hypothesis. But you have to keep something in mind: the Elder Dragons have only held influence while hibernating where they and their champions slept. Yet there’s nothing in Kryta… but something in the Maguuma.

But we know why there’s sylvari in the Maguuma – because that’s where Ronan planted them! Had someone planted the seed that would become the Pale Tree in North Kryta Province, that could have been the sylvari homeland. So it isn’t that surprising that the sylvari are somewhere slightly different to Mordremoth (if you believe that they are dragon minions).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The difference is that magic in the ley lines is continuously moving – hence the comparison to currents. It isn’t static, thus it may not hold the same effect as the Central Transfer Chamber or Arah’s magical hotspots. Magic may not even be passing through under Lion’s Arch the entire time.

GW’s definition of ley lines is the “path of least resistance” (the phrase actually used to describe ley lines) that magic travels through. So nothing says that magic is constantly moving through the ley lines.

While it’s true that the ley lines don’t represent the magic itself but the possible paths the magic could take, an intersection of ley lines would suggest a high magic concentration (otherwise Thaumanova wouldn’t have happened). And of course there’s the question of Scarlet’s motivation – she’s not gonna be interested in a bunch of “empty” channels – she’s after either the magic (aka dragon energy) flowing through them, or the source of that energy – the dragon itself. And from a narrative perspective, I know which possibility I find more compelling.

Zelkovan.2630:

No, he isn’t. It’s been pointed out over and over again that there is NOT a dragon sleeping under Lion’s Arch. Konig already pointed out all the flaws alone in just that theory.

We do KNOW that there is an intersection of ley lines under LA, just like Thaumanova. Does that mean it is a magical area/hotspot? No, but it means that a bunch of magic flows beneath it. What Scarlet is going to do with it? We will wait and see.

As I said above and in this thread, if you assume Mordremoth is beneath Lion’s Arch, and pay attention to Scarlet’s overall motivation, the way she behaves, what the trajectory of her narrative arc might look like etc., it becomes pretty obvious what she’s after :P

But just think about what you said for a minute. Of course an area with lots of magic flowing under it is gonna be a magic hotspot! An intersection of ley lines is surely exactly where you’d expect to see the most ambient magic! A magic “hotspot” is exactly what I’d call Thaumanova.

I probably have written in couple times by now, but I might reapea
ANet shoud consider hiring Stephen (OP) for hyping and teasing people playing this game.
When his statements are mostly imagination, he provides some good reasoning and are very entertaining to read

Tamias.7059:

But just think about what you said for a minute. Of course an area with lots of magic flowing under it is gonna be a magic hotspot! An intersection of ley lines is surely exactly where you’d expect to see the most ambient magic!

I personally wouldn’t make any claims what to expect, since it hasn’t been explained to us yet how leylines work. I think other people should do the same.

And I think that’s what Konig was getting at. He’s not making any claims on how leylines work or what they do, because we don’t know. That is a logical position to take in the absence of information.

Stephen.6312:

The giant drill dominating the western horizon of Lion’s Arch is very, very big – so big, it has led a number to question: Will Mordremoth crawl out of the hole it is drilling?(…)

Stop reading here, if a Dragon is gonna crawl out of there, is gonna be Primordus, where are people getting Mordremoth from?

Dean Calaway.9718:

Stephen.6312:

The giant drill dominating the western horizon of Lion’s Arch is very, very big – so big, it has led a number to question: Will Mordremoth crawl out of the hole it is drilling?(…)

Stop reading here, if a Dragon is gonna crawl out of there, is gonna be Primordus, where are people getting Mordremoth from?

From below Lion’s Arch?

I’m just going to point out that electric field lines are simply a pretty visual representation of the actual physics going on. In reality, electric fields are just solutions to Maxwell’s equations, which in the absence of moving charges happen to be solutions to Poisson’s equation. In the absence of charge density, these solutions further simplify to become solutions to Laplace’s equation. All solutions to Laplace’s equation share the same property: they do not allow discontinuities. As such, to get a discontinuity, there has to be a charge density present. In the pretty picture of field lines, if we assume only one electric field is present, field lines “crossing” represent a discontinuity.

So to sum up, “this is probably like electric field lines” is a weird statement that doesn’t actually mean anything useful in this context. I will further add that if you superimposed two electric fields, you could indeed draw field lines that crossed. We don’t do this simply because it’s easier to consider the net field, and draw the lines accordingly (the net field is more interesting to us).

Anyways, now that the physics digression is over, I’m interested to see why Scarlet is gunning for the leylines and what she’s hoping to do with them. I hope this isn’t anything as “simple” as releasing an Elder Dragon. I share the opinion that somebody probably should have noticed if there was that much magic pouring out of the environs of Lion’s Arch, and I also do believe that there is a marked difference between the Artesian Wells and the two leyline crossings we know about. I would be a bit surprised if an Elder Dragon popped out of that hole.

Blurk.6231:

Dean Calaway.9718:

Stephen.6312:

The giant drill dominating the western horizon of Lion’s Arch is very, very big – so big, it has led a number to question: Will Mordremoth crawl out of the hole it is drilling?(…)

Stop reading here, if a Dragon is gonna crawl out of there, is gonna be Primordus, where are people getting Mordremoth from?

From below Lion’s Arch?

I said IF.

Why, IF any, would be Primordus?
It’s the only Dragon that “hangs out” underground, it’s gotta be somewhere.

Again, big IF, now a why.

Why under LA? Honestly I think it would be cool if the story when back to Dragons, BUT I think above anything else attacking LA is the devs way to break off the shackles of PS and say “we can do anything”, so that’s why LA.

Tamias.7059:

All perfectly explainable if, as I said, we think of (sleeping) Elder Dragons as sources of magic. Then, using the fluid analogy, the Artesian Waters (appropriately) would be a spring where the ley lines have led to the surface. Never mind the fact that the ley lines in Lion’s Arch are buried deep underground – there’s no reason why things can’t be different in the case of Orr (in fact it would explain why there were so many powerful magic users there, compared to Kryta). It’s looking good for our model if we are able to explain unknown phenomena in terms of known ones. By assuming ley lines point outward from Elder Dragons, things start making more sense – that’s a thumbs up.

True, one could – and should – consider the Elder Dragons as sources of magic. After all, they consume all magic in teh world during their rising (if Glint and Priory are to be believed). However, this last rise had something unique: The Bloodstone was in Orr. So Orr became probably double – if not more – of a magical source. And this is important to note: Orr had two “objects” (one living, one inanimate) that exuded magic for roughly 9,000 years before humans started being magically adept there (whether they could have been before is unknown, given they were not there). Ley lines would be unnecessary to make it a magical hotspot – and again, nothing actually hints to there being a single ley line under Orr, let alone an intersection. Yet you presume that there is!

It’s an excellent – and quite plausible – theory, but it just that. A theory. You stated as if it were undeniable fact, stating that there is an intersection of ley lines beneath Orr, not that there could be.

This said, it should also be noted that water seems magically conductive (like certain metals and gemstones); we know this from the various skill challenges, moving water seems to conduct magic (of all communing skills, the most common themes are waterfalls, springs, and places of massive death).

Tamias.7059:

As for the Thaumanova, neither location acts quite the same as Orr, but would you say that Thaumanova and Lion’s Arch are remotely similar, either? Out of the three, I would actually say that Thaumanova has most in common with Orr, with dragon energy (aka magic) all over the place. You have to remember, as well, that Thaumanova is in the state that it’s in due to the research that took place there. We don’t really know what that area was like before the disaster, but I’ll bet it wasn’t nearly as chaotic.

Dragon energy is only all over the place due to artificial (read: Inquest/Scarlet-made) interaction. Dragon energy was not a natural occurance there, and by all indications neither was the chaos magic studied there first. Back in GW1, we can go to where Thaumanova was (approximately), and there was nothing special about the area.

Tamias.7059:

In any event, this is just a model, an idea. I never said anything as bold as “places of ley line intersections don’t function like Orr”, which is, um, exactly what you said.

But you did say something as bold as:

There was an intersection of ley lines beneath Orr (that’s why Orrian magic was so much more powerful than any other human magic).

And what I said, in that quote, was far from “bold” – Lion’s Arch, nor to our indication Thaumanova, does not function like Orr in its magic abundance.

Tamias.7059:

Cool from a dev’s perspective (and from the perspective of a player who doesn’t think too hard about lore), I mean. If you’re a narrative designer, getting to blow up the main hub city and wake up a dragon all in one go is an exciting storytelling opportunity, as well as an exciting way to end a story arc.

Fair enough, I suppose one can think that to be an exciting "story"telling opportunity.

If it wasn’t done before with Zhaitan (even if the two events were disconnected by, oh, 100 ish years). Quite honestly, little in the Scarlet arc is “new” and “exciting” even ignoring the lore contradictions – Lion’s Arch has gotten attacked how many times now? Once in GW1, once in Sea of Sorrows, once in the personal story… now in living story. Feels morel ike beating a dead horse to me, like Scarlet sounding like a one-note song with the same ploys repeated (unholy alliance! Unholy Alliance! UNHOLY ALLIANCE!) but that’s just my personal opinion.

Tamias.7059:

But we know why there’s sylvari in the Maguuma – because that’s where Ronan planted them! Had someone planted the seed that would become the Pale Tree in North Kryta Province, that could have been the sylvari homeland. So it isn’t that surprising that the sylvari are somewhere slightly different to Mordremoth (if you believe that they are dragon minions).

The seeds were there in the Maguuma before Ronan found them.

And I don’t believe they’re dragon minions, not on a whole, as all evidence supports the contrary. At best, the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s influence, thus the Nightmare Court (and their creations – husks and thorn wolves) are Mordrem’s minions/corruption/whathaveyou.

But that’s an entirely other cup of tea. One that I can spend dozens of walls of text utterly destroying the hypothesis – yet still leave you all unconvinced because it’s your opinion, and I cannot brainwash you over the internet unless you’re an idiot.

Tamias.7059:

While it’s true that the ley lines don’t represent the magic itself but the possible paths the magic could take, an intersection of ley lines would suggest a high magic concentration (otherwise Thaumanova wouldn’t have happened). And of course there’s the question of Scarlet’s motivation – she’s not gonna be interested in a bunch of “empty” channels – she’s after either the magic (aka dragon energy) flowing through them, or the source of that energy – the dragon itself. And from a narrative perspective, I know which possibility I find more compelling.

Mmmmm, not quite.

An intersection of ley lines means a larger-amount-than-normal of magic passes through, thus travels through.

And it’s also foolhardy to claim that magic within ley lines are dragon energy. Because draconic energies is corruptive magic (otherwise all magic would be considered dragon energy and thus it’d be pointless to use that as a distinction). And if the ley lines were full of corruptive magic, then the entire globe would become corrupted in a matter of weels, days, or even minutes, depending on how fast the magic travels. The entire world of Tyria would be one huge Dragonbrand of crystal, fire, rot, vegetation, ice, and water.

Tamias.7059:

As I said above and in this thread, if you assume Mordremoth is beneath Lion’s Arch, and pay attention to Scarlet’s overall motivation, the way she behaves, what the trajectory of her narrative arc might look like etc., it becomes pretty obvious what she’s after :P

Do you not recognize your own fallacy in this statement?

You open up with a presumption. Yes, if we presume that A happens, while we know that B happens, then C becomes likely. But there’s little to actually suggest Mordremoth’s under Lion’s Arch.

If you use the argument of “Orr likely is an intersection of ley lines, and there was a dragon there” then one should argue… there’s a dragon underneath Thaumanova too.

You make a LOT of assumptions in these posts of yours, and act as if they should be treated as facts.

Tamias.7059:

But just think about what you said for a minute. Of course an area with lots of magic flowing under it is gonna be a magic hotspot! An intersection of ley lines is surely exactly where you’d expect to see the most ambient magic! A magic “hotspot” is exactly what I’d call Thaumanova.

Depends on how one defines a “magic hotspot”.

Because absolutely nothing indicates that there’s ambient magic above or around the ley lines. So nothing indicates that Lion’s Arch has a lot of ambient magic, just because there’s an intersection of ley lines.

If anything, I would argue the existence of ley lines prevents magical hotspots, because a magical hotspot by definition is a location in which there is a lot of magic over a continual amount of time. Ley lines can empty for periods. If ley lines dictated where magical hotspots are to be, then magical hotspots should be constantly moving – but then that’d create a contradiction with the understanding of what a “magical hotspot” should be – a lot of magic over a continual amount of time.

In other words, it is possible – IMO likely, but not proven so – that magical hotspots have static magic, i.e., no ley line. But again, we just simply have too little information to definitively say one way or another, and that’s what you’re doing all across the board here – definitively saying one way.

Dean Calaway.9718:

Blurk.6231:

Dean Calaway.9718:

Stephen.6312:

The giant drill dominating the western horizon of Lion’s Arch is very, very big – so big, it has led a number to question: Will Mordremoth crawl out of the hole it is drilling?(…)

Stop reading here, if a Dragon is gonna crawl out of there, is gonna be Primordus, where are people getting Mordremoth from?

From below Lion’s Arch?

I said IF.

Why, IF any, would be Primordus?
It’s the only Dragon that “hangs out” underground, it’s gotta be somewhere.

Again, big IF, now a why.

Why under LA? Honestly I think it would be cool if the story when back to Dragons, BUT I think above anything else attacking LA is the devs way to break off the shackles of PS and say “we can do anything”, so that’s why LA.

Oh believe me I do get your point. My response was meant as a joke. Many say Scarlet is drilling for Mordremoth so Scarlet is getting Mordremoth form below LA

I am not saying anything anymore about what the contents of the living story will be. I am just about ready for anything right now. All I say now is that there might be a lot of disappointed people if it doesnt turn out to be a dragon, so dont get your hopes too high.

Out of curiosity where does it state that Ronan specifically found the seeds in a cave in Maguuma? I thought it just stated that he found the cave in his travels while at war. And I believe that the things you kill in bloodtide and sparkly count towards Maguuma killer. It’s not so much of a stretch to believe that a dragon sleeping under LA could have influence in the maps directly south of it. Tbh the only place in the game that I can think of that would be directly influenced is the swamp in Caledon, maybe the Rise of Zhaitan weakened a slumbering Mordremoth in the areas he began to invade, who knows, either way I’m hoping it is a dragon. And I’m hoping it is Mordremoth, it’d be nice for something like that to shed more light on the Sylvari as a race as a whole, they’re kind of fascinating.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

But we know why there’s sylvari in the Maguuma – because that’s where Ronan planted them! Had someone planted the seed that would become the Pale Tree in North Kryta Province, that could have been the sylvari homeland. So it isn’t that surprising that the sylvari are somewhere slightly different to Mordremoth (if you believe that they are dragon minions).

The seeds were there in the Maguuma before Ronan found them.

And I don’t believe they’re dragon minions, not on a whole, as all evidence supports the contrary. At best, the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s influence, thus the Nightmare Court (and their creations – husks and thorn wolves) are Mordrem’s minions/corruption/whathaveyou.

But that’s an entirely other cup of tea. One that I can spend dozens of walls of text utterly destroying the hypothesis – yet still leave you all unconvinced because it’s your opinion, and I cannot brainwash you over the internet unless you’re an idiot.

Tamias.7059:

While it’s true that the ley lines don’t represent the magic itself but the possible paths the magic could take, an intersection of ley lines would suggest a high magic concentration (otherwise Thaumanova wouldn’t have happened). And of course there’s the question of Scarlet’s motivation – she’s not gonna be interested in a bunch of “empty” channels – she’s after either the magic (aka dragon energy) flowing through them, or the source of that energy – the dragon itself. And from a narrative perspective, I know which possibility I find more compelling.

Mmmmm, not quite.

An intersection of ley lines means a larger-amount-than-normal of magic passes through, thus travels through.

And it’s also foolhardy to claim that magic within ley lines are dragon energy. Because draconic energies is corruptive magic (otherwise all magic would be considered dragon energy and thus it’d be pointless to use that as a distinction). And if the ley lines were full of corruptive magic, then the entire globe would become corrupted in a matter of weels, days, or even minutes, depending on how fast the magic travels. The entire world of Tyria would be one huge Dragonbrand of crystal, fire, rot, vegetation, ice, and water.

Tamias.7059:

As I said above and in this thread, if you assume Mordremoth is beneath Lion’s Arch, and pay attention to Scarlet’s overall motivation, the way she behaves, what the trajectory of her narrative arc might look like etc., it becomes pretty obvious what she’s after :P

Do you not recognize your own fallacy in this statement?

You open up with a presumption. Yes, if we presume that A happens, while we know that B happens, then C becomes likely. But there’s little to actually suggest Mordremoth’s under Lion’s Arch.

If you use the argument of “Orr likely is an intersection of ley lines, and there was a dragon there” then one should argue… there’s a dragon underneath Thaumanova too.

You make a LOT of assumptions in these posts of yours, and act as if they should be treated as facts.

Tamias.7059:

But just think about what you said for a minute. Of course an area with lots of magic flowing under it is gonna be a magic hotspot! An intersection of ley lines is surely exactly where you’d expect to see the most ambient magic! A magic “hotspot” is exactly what I’d call Thaumanova.

Depends on how one defines a “magic hotspot”.

Because absolutely nothing indicates that there’s ambient magic above or around the ley lines. So nothing indicates that Lion’s Arch has a lot of ambient magic, just because there’s an intersection of ley lines.

If anything, I would argue the existence of ley lines prevents magical hotspots, because a magical hotspot by definition is a location in which there is a lot of magic over a continual amount of time. Ley lines can empty for periods. If ley lines dictated where magical hotspots are to be, then magical hotspots should be constantly moving – but then that’d create a contradiction with the understanding of what a “magical hotspot” should be – a lot of magic over a continual amount of time.

In other words, it is possible – IMO likely, but not proven so – that magical hotspots have static magic, i.e., no ley line. But again, we just simply have too little information to definitively say one way or another, and that’s what you’re doing all across the board here – definitively saying one way.

Actually the Thaumanova fractal is proof that the Ley Lines are connected to magical energies, sometimes specifically that of the Elder Dragons, also the dialogue between Rytlock and Twistgear during the first update of OoM further provides us with the information that the Thumpers are specifically designed to locate large areas of magic.

*Sparkfly and Maelstrom. That’s just mechanics though.

As for Ronan, strictly speaking, I don’t think it’s ever said to be specifically the Maguuma. That’s still the most likely- he found it while separated from his patrol, so that narrows it down to places that had a Shining Blade military presence before 1078, which would be the Maguuma, Kryta, and the Shiverpeaks. Since the Maguuma had the largest long-term Shining Blade presence at that point, and Kryta and the southern Shiverpeaks were too heavily populated to easily overlook such a cave, and since Malyck’s tree, implied to have come from the same cave, is somewhere west of Brisban, the balance of probability is heavily slanted towards the cave being in the Maguuma. But are we 100% certain? No.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

*Sparkfly and Maelstrom. That’s just mechanics though.

As for Ronan, strictly speaking, I don’t think it’s ever said to be specifically the Maguuma. That’s still the most likely- he found it while separated from his patrol, so that narrows it down to places that had a Shining Blade military presence before 1078, which would be the Maguuma, Kryta, and the Shiverpeaks. Since the Maguuma had the largest long-term Shining Blade presence at that point, and Kryta and the southern Shiverpeaks were too heavily populated to easily overlook such a cave, and since Malyck’s tree, implied to have come from the same cave, is somewhere west of Brisban, the balance of probability is heavily slanted towards the cave being in the Maguuma. But are we 100% certain? No.

Ah yes well I’m just pointing that out cause there are an awful lot of “don’t state things as facts unless they’re facts” nitpicking going on in this thread. As for maelstrom and sparkly and mechanics, I don’t necessarily think elder dragons have to be confined to the specific areas they are “sleeping” at as the only areas they can influence, but that’s just my take on it. They all work in their own way, that’s been made pretty clear in the way they corrupt and get from one place to another so to make assumptions about one based on another isn’t always the best way to go about it. Either way bring Tuesday on.

Syryn.7591:

Out of curiosity where does it state that Ronan specifically found the seeds in a cave in Maguuma? I thought it just stated that he found the cave in his travels while at war.

The Shining Blade, of which Ronan was a member of, was in the Maguuma Jungle at the time – well, mostly. They had presence in Kryta, Southern Shiverpeaks, and Ring of Fire too but only briefly. Ronan found the cave after being separated from a patrol, however, which would heavily reduce the chances of him finding it while in the Southern Shiverpeaks (modern day called Mount Maelstrom and Timberline Falls) or Ring of Fire, as there weren’t any known patrols by the Shining Blade in those places, and slightly reduces the chance of Kryta depending on whether it was prior to or after the events of Prophecies (given that the mursaat wiped out his family while he was away, it would have to be prior to or during the events of Prophecies, as they were almost all wiped out during the end of Prophecies) – in such a case, Kryta becomes even less likely, as they seldom had patrols in Kryta before and during the events of Prophecies. And as Aaron said, Malyck’s tree’s placement slants it further to being the Maguuma Jungle.

However, I do recall there being mention of the Maguuma in direct relation to Ronan finding the cave by a sylvari NPC in GW2 – either in the Grove or during Malyck’s personal story. Sadly, both cases are lacking in details on the wiki (otherwise I’d just link that NPC since that’d be the sole absolute case if I’m remembering correctly).

Syryn.7591:

And I believe that the things you kill in bloodtide and sparkly count towards Maguuma killer.

That’s mechanics, not lore. Also, it’s Sparkfly and Mount Maelstrom – which lore wise, are Steamspur Mountains, not Maguuma Jungle. Bloodtide counts – lore and mechanics – as Kryta. Sparkfly is, in lore, more or less split between geographic Kryta (and historical Krytan kingdom) and… Sea of Sorrows shores I guess? (and historical Orrian kingdom).

Syryn.7591:

Actually the Thaumanova fractal is proof that the Ley Lines are connected to magical energies, sometimes specifically that of the Elder Dragons, also the dialogue between Rytlock and Twistgear during the first update of OoM further provides us with the information that the Thumpers are specifically designed to locate large areas of magic.

I never denied that ley lines have to do with magic.

However, at Thaumanova, the draconic energies was introduced, not natural.

Wasn’t the cave found near the ruins of his village? I thought he found the pale tree’s seed after the Mursaat burned down his village.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Wasn’t the cave found near the ruins of his village? I thought he found the pale tree’s seed after the Mursaat burned down his village.

No, he found the cave and the seeds before returning home. He was going to present the seed as a gift to his daughter (I think) but came home to find his village in ruin and his family dead so he planted the seed on top of their graves.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Syryn.7591:

Out of curiosity where does it state that Ronan specifically found the seeds in a cave in Maguuma? I thought it just stated that he found the cave in his travels while at war.

The Shining Blade, of which Ronan was a member of, was in the Maguuma Jungle at the time – well, mostly. They had presence in Kryta, Southern Shiverpeaks, and Ring of Fire too but only briefly. Ronan found the cave after being separated from a patrol, however, which would heavily reduce the chances of him finding it while in the Southern Shiverpeaks (modern day called Mount Maelstrom and Timberline Falls) or Ring of Fire, as there weren’t any known patrols by the Shining Blade in those places, and slightly reduces the chance of Kryta depending on whether it was prior to or after the events of Prophecies (given that the mursaat wiped out his family while he was away, it would have to be prior to or during the events of Prophecies, as they were almost all wiped out during the end of Prophecies) – in such a case, Kryta becomes even less likely, as they seldom had patrols in Kryta before and during the events of Prophecies. And as Aaron said, Malyck’s tree’s placement slants it further to being the Maguuma Jungle.

However, I do recall there being mention of the Maguuma in direct relation to Ronan finding the cave by a sylvari NPC in GW2 – either in the Grove or during Malyck’s personal story. Sadly, both cases are lacking in details on the wiki (otherwise I’d just link that NPC since that’d be the sole absolute case if I’m remembering correctly).

Syryn.7591:

And I believe that the things you kill in bloodtide and sparkly count towards Maguuma killer.

That’s mechanics, not lore. Also, it’s Sparkfly and Mount Maelstrom – which lore wise, are Steamspur Mountains, not Maguuma Jungle. Bloodtide counts – lore and mechanics – as Kryta. Sparkfly is, in lore, more or less split between geographic Kryta (and historical Krytan kingdom) and… Sea of Sorrows shores I guess? (and historical Orrian kingdom).

Syryn.7591:

Actually the Thaumanova fractal is proof that the Ley Lines are connected to magical energies, sometimes specifically that of the Elder Dragons, also the dialogue between Rytlock and Twistgear during the first update of OoM further provides us with the information that the Thumpers are specifically designed to locate large areas of magic.

I never denied that ley lines have to do with magic.

However, at Thaumanova, the draconic energies was introduced, not natural.

Yeah the Maguuma jungle is the most likely candidate for the cave to be located in, and as for the ley lines – I was more using those points as a reason why it’s unlikely they wouldn’t be magical hotspots, considering the probes are specifically made to find magical energy. As for for Thaumanova ah yes! The dragon magic was introduced not natural there. Just as you can’t use Subject Alpha as an example of Elder Dragon’s being able to corrupt other Elder Dragon minions because the dragon energies there aren’t working naturally but by the scientific experimentation of the Inquest.

Syryn.7591:

No, he found the cave and the seeds before returning home. He was going to present the seed as a gift to his daughter (I think) but came home to find his village in ruin and his family dead so he planted the seed on top of their graves.

Oh ok thanks for the clarification.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Wasn’t the cave found near the ruins of his village? I thought he found the pale tree’s seed after the Mursaat burned down his village.

That appears to have been the original idea- in EotN that’s the account that Ventari gives- but it seems to have been changed at some point, seeing as all the Word of Dev level documents we’ve had since says he was taking the seed home for his daughter.

tbh Stephan, 99% of people will not read that gigantic essay. But Konig answered your concern of mordremoth being under LA in the best way; its wrong.

Its been officially stated that Mordremoth is the ‘jungle’ dragon and hinted many times to be located somewhere in the Maguuma Jungle.

Syryn.7591:

As for for Thaumanova ah yes! The dragon magic was introduced not natural there. Just as you can’t use Subject Alpha as an example of Elder Dragon’s being able to corrupt other Elder Dragon minions because the dragon energies there aren’t working naturally but by the scientific experimentation of the Inquest.

Not quite. You’re comparing apple and oranges – both fruits, but both different. In the cause of Thaumanova, dragon energy was introduced artificially but the results is natural for what would occur. Same goes for Subject Alpha – the multiple corruption wasn’t introduced directly from dragon champions/Elder Dragon corrupting direectly, but the results is still the natural effect of what would occur.

Both can be used as examples for arguments, you just cannot say that the end result is how they started out as – which was the argument for Thaumanova’s interaction with draconic energies.

I just want to say to the OP and others discussing this stuff, thanks. I love reading all these ideas. And also, some of you have made good cases for what will and won’t be happening in the next update, but remember that just because something doesn’t seem to sit well with established lore or rigid interpretations of hints based on tidbits of information does not mean ANet won’t be doing it in the update. Whether it makes perfect sense that Mordremoth could be under LA does not necessarily matter. They could just do it anyway and explain it away by creating some new bit of lore that hasn’t been revealed. Because Tyria is not real; this is fiction, not history.

Brace yourselves, inconsistencies are coming.

@Facepunch: This is ArenaNet, not Blizzard. Anet has, for at least prior to the Living World, focused on continuity greatly with their storytelling and loremaking. They’ve retconned things, yes, but only in believable ways.

Though admittedly, it’s getting less and less believable and being tossed aside as “that was then, this is now”.

Something is still missing from this theory. There have been very heavy hints that either something is possessing Scarlet or she saw something during Omadds test that she is now trying to hunt down and stop out of fear. And I highly doubt that the ley lines are the cause of that. The Asuran council member, Vorpp that we have seen twice in the past two releases even stated something about a possible mental barrier that is meant to protect silvari from something that was perhaps broken for scarlet when she was in omadds machine. While it is all fine and dandy that she is looking for the Ley Lines in Lions Arch that does not explain what entity or creature she is trying to stop. There were even recorded lines of Scarlet seemingly talking to herself about her own plans being her own which suggests she is insane from whatever she saw. And ending the current season without a conclusion as to what she saw or what is possessing her would be honestly frustrating as she is likely going to die or something as the devs have said this is the ending of her story ark. I honestly think she is digging for something rather then just magical ley lines as she is trying to stop whatever scared her to death. Whether this is a dragon or something else, I highly doubt the ley lines are her true target as that wouldn’t make sense. The only thing that would make sense is that she is looking for a physical being of some sort to stop it based on the info of the past few releases. And that would also give Anet a way of explaining that Scarlet is more then just a joker type character doing all of this for no reason which had been a very common complaint.

I don’t think Scarlet’s trying to stop it. People seem to think that because of the beginning of the journal but at the end she succumbs. Per Edge of the Mists:

(Kasmeer Meade:) She’s made our lives miserable for months now. Still, if this journal is true, then I almost feel a little sorry for her. What do you supposed it all means?
→Something is driving her—*something she was afraid of but has since embraced.*
Marjory Delaqua: Scared? What could possibly frighten someone like Scarlet?
Kasmeer Meade: She saw something while hooked up to Omadd’s machine. Something that broke her. She’s hearing voices in her head. But what are they telling her to do?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Dead_End:_A_Study_in_Scarlet#Evidence

Whatever the “entity” is, Scarlet’s scared of it but embraced it. She’s working for it out of fear, not trying to stop it.

So, other than possibly the afraid part, her experience is similar to Faolain’s to a degree? They both saw something horrible, or possibly horrible on Scarlet’s part, since we have no idea what she saw, but in the end both of them embraced it in the end.

Sylvari really need to learn not to embrace horrible stuff it seems. Though to be fair, Scarlet seemed to have been forced to embrace it, to a degree. It’s hard to put up a lot of fight after so much constant mental stress

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t think Scarlet’s trying to stop it. People seem to think that because of the beginning of the journal but at the end she succumbs. Per Edge of the Mists:

(Kasmeer Meade:) She’s made our lives miserable for months now. Still, if this journal is true, then I almost feel a little sorry for her. What do you supposed it all means?
->Something is driving her—*something she was afraid of but has since embraced.*
Marjory Delaqua: Scared? What could possibly frighten someone like Scarlet?
Kasmeer Meade: She saw something while hooked up to Omadd’s machine. Something that broke her. She’s hearing voices in her head. But what are they telling her to do?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Dead_End:_A_Study_in_Scarlet#Evidence

Whatever the “entity” is, Scarlet’s scared of it but embraced it. She’s working for it out of fear, not trying to stop it.

I’m not 100% convinced of this. Scarlet’s arc, from the beginning has been all about her forging her own path, forgoing the “destiny” prescribed to her by the Dream. She rejected the traditional path of the sylvari early on, so it’s thematically appropriate that her major conflict be between herself and something that’s trying to control her, even if much of it takes place behind the scenes. This is reflected pretty well in the dialogue during that instance:

Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours. Let me be clear. I’m not doing this for you; I’m doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever. It’s not true. None of it. I don’t have to listen to you. Get out of my head!

So it seems clear to me that Scarlet, at least, believes that she is in control of her own actions, not the entity. And again from a storytelling point of view, it’d be pretty boring if the Big Bad of LS season 1 turned out to be a minion of some other, Bigger Bad – it’d be a lot more compelling if our villain was actually herself struggling (however unsuccessfully) against some larger evil. This is supported by the flavour text on the Spinal Blade Pack Blueprint item

I want to draw attention to this passage:

What Sscarlet Saw

Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.

Ceara felt an electric tingle and she wondered if her body was smiling back in Omadd’s lab. Deliberately and with great glee, Ceara thought, Shhh. I’m thinking, and then pressed on.
She soon saw a vague, glowing shape ahead. A tree, she thought…the Pale Tree. Its great off-white trunk connected a broad network of branches and leaves to a root system below. Instead of nuts or berries beneath its leaves, there were sylvari. Thousands of her people hung from the tree’s boughs like ripe fruit ready to fall. Their bodies did not move, but their eyes shifted and rolled, eagerly taking in their surroundings.

Some dropped like autumn leaves, slowly drifting down to root level. There they stood, stretched, and then set out into the void, disappearing as they cleared the spreading canopy. Some never made it that far, staggering, falling, and withering within the shade of the great tree.

Disappointment soured Ceara’s fascination. Was this it, then? Were the lives of all sylvari so easily encapsulated? Birth, travel, experience, death, all played out under the dictates and philosophies of the godlike entity that created them?

She refused to accept that. Everything she had learned said that no system, no matter how complex, can perpetuate itself indefinitely. Those that did not evolve inevitably failed.
It was then Ceara saw the thorn vine. It emerged from the roots at the base of the tree and began to climb, wrapping itself around the trunk and scoring the bark with its dusty red barbs. Green-black ichor oozed from these wounds, and the great tree shuddered.

Then Ceara was the vine, squeezing the great tree’s trunk like a desperate lover. The tree struggled against her: she was meant to be part of it, to participate in its grand purpose. Instead, she was no more than an irritant, a provocation.

Now do you see? The Pale Tree’s voice was faint and distant, but it snapped Ceara back to viewing the tree from a distance. If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous.

Sheer joy surged through Ceara. Dangerous, you say? Her thoughts boomed loud as thunder across the void. So be it.

With the Pale Tree’s desperate words and her own raucous laughter growing echoing across the void, Ceara plunged through the vision of the great tree and beyond.

The forces that shape us. Let’s have a think about that. And what Scarlet says later on, upon emerging – about the Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain, all being part of a grand design. About the insurmountable challenge of the future she saw, how the sylvari are “called” to meet it, how they are compelled by their creator (the Pale Tree – or something else?) to do so. And how she intends to undermine all of that destiny and forge her own world.

Whatever Scarlet is doing, has something to do with the collective destiny of the sylvari. And we don’t really know what that is. We know the sylvari were born about 25 years ago, and we know that some believe that their emergence is Tyria’s natural “reponse” to the Elder Dragons – a way of fighting back. The sylvari believe that their collective destiny is to fight against the Elder Dragons, and this is supported by Caithe and Trahearne’s (and the player’s, if sylvari) Wyld Hunts. This is certainly what the Pale Tree wants them to do – but when the Pale Tree was talking about the forces that shape “us”, she wasn’t talking about just the sylvari, but herself as well. She was worried that Scarlet was going to “unleash” the forces that shaped her – the creator of the seed from which the Pale Tree grew. And this all of course ties in nicely with Vorpp’s theory – that Scarlet accessed a part of the sylvari psyche that had previously been walled off.

Whatever Scarlet saw inside the isolation module – including all the images of destiny, the ultimate purpose of the sylvari, and Caithe and Faolain’s part in it – was already inside her head (if you believe Vorpp, which I would since otherwise ANet would be deliberately trying to throw us off, which seems silly at this late stage). The future of the sylvari, in broad strokes at least, is encoded in each sylvari at birth. That is what Scarlet seeks to change, and I believe fighting the entity is her way of doing that (although I could be wrong).

You’ll notice I haven’t mentioned Mordremoth once yet. But something needs to be said – it’s all well and good saying the theory doesn’t work for this reason or that, but Guild Wars 2 is ultimately a game about fighting the Elder Dragons, not insane engineers, and we’ve been told that the living world will eventually tie back to them. And, well, you gotta explain the mural of the Elder Dragon in Scarlet’s secret lair somehow…

I think that’s rather the entire point of it.

Marjory Delaqua: Scarlet rejected the Pale Tree because she wanted independence. What if Omadd’s machine cost her that?
Marjory Delaqua: Ironic that she rejected the Pale Tree to exert her independence, only to lose it to something else.

Scarlet’s been trying to, as you put it, forge her own path. But in the end, ever since being in that machine, she’s been a puppet of the entity – realizing it or not.

To me, it seems less of the entity is in control, and more of the entity is persuading her to go down a certain route – that it is tricking her into thinking she’s doing what she wants, when she’s doing what it wants.

And I’m not convinced on saying the Big Bad of LW Season 1 being a minion of a Bigger Bad is boring from a storytelling point of view. Did being a general of Abaddon make Khilbron or Shiro any less interesting of figures? To me, Shiro is the most interesting villain, yet he’s just a Big Bad that’s a mere pawn to a Bigger Bad.

Edit: Since you added another post while I was writing…

There is a line by the Pale Tree – not up on the wiki, I notice – that was added with A Very Merry Wintersday (or Fractured!, perhaps?):

“Ceara looked too deeply into the mysteries of the world, and something there was looking back at her. It managed to crack her defenses and has been trying to consume her ever since.”
→ Go on.
“I tried to protect her, but Ceara turned away from me and from her own bright potential. She imagines she can defy her destiny under the new name she’s chosen for herself.”
→What is she trying to accomplish?
“Only she can answer that. I will say she has confused knowledge, power, and authority so completely that, in her mind, they are indistinguishable. I grieve for my lost child.”

Anyways, “the forces that shape us” is very vague – as is “mysteries of the world” but one can assume they’re one in the same. It can mean anything from the Mists, to magic, to whatever created the seeds, to even the origins of the Dream of Dreams and Nightmare. Given Vorpp’s bit, I’m inclined to believe the last, though the first is still possible if one looks at the Voices of Koda having their minds in the Mists, and the risk of the Rage of Koda (insanity driven by being connected to the Mists).

Tamias.7059:

You’ll notice I haven’t mentioned Mordremoth once yet. But something needs to be said – it’s all well and good saying the theory doesn’t work for this reason or that, but Guild Wars 2 is ultimately a game about fighting the Elder Dragons, not insane engineers, and we’ve been told that the living world will eventually tie back to them. And, well, you gotta explain the mural of the Elder Dragon in Scarlet’s secret lair somehow…

I wouldn’t deny that the entity is Mordremoth.

I would, however, argue against all sylvari being Mordremoth minions. Why? Because it makes no sense given all our knowledge on sylvari and dragon minions. Sylvari are immune to corruption (they die when touched by it, rather than becoming minions) – dragon minions are not so. Dragon minions have no free will; only minion known to obtain such is Glint and she did so not by herself but by ancient Forgotten magic which is similarly immune – yet sylvari clearly do, given that they can chose how to act. And one cannot argue that the Nightmare Court’s proclaimed belief is true, given that we have seen a sylvari – with no tie to Dream nor Nightmare – that acts more akin to Dreamers than Courtiers.

I would argue, rather than all sylvari being minions of Mordremoth, that instead Mordremoth is the source of the Nightmare – that it isn’t his corruption, but still his influence (like the Dragonspawn’s mental powers seen in Edge of Destiny, where Zojja was entranced but not corrupted) – and that being tied to the Dream, the machine broke any protection against the Nightmare’s influence, thus resulting in her being more influenced than Courtiers. This fits on many fields, far more than sylvari origins being dragon minions, given the change in mentality exhibited by imprisoned sylvari in the pods in Twilight Arbor story mode (the lines by those whom, when freed, are new Courtiers – I’d quote but I’d have to dig through hundreds of screenshots in 4 folders to find them, but it sounded very akin to how the Risen treat Zhaitan’s will – at least to me); furthermore, falling to the Nightmare is thus far irreversible (like dragon corruption – until the discovery about the Forgotten ritual), and we see Sylvan hounds being irreversibly and physically turned too, then slap in Wychmire Swamp, the Nightmare Mosshearts sharing models with an Rotting Oakheart – one seen in Thaumanova, the other said to be spreading corruption (the latter and the mosshearts sharing environmental changes of black fog); then of course the husks and nightmare hounds in CoE – note: you don’t see normal sylvan hounds there, nor normal sylvari turrets either.

Everything points to the Nightmare being tied to Mordremoth, not all sylvari.

Edit: This and this thread as well as this GuildMag article (written stylishly out of request of other writers for GM at the time, and thus intentionally left incomplete) are some (old) researches of mine about Mordremoth, outdated of course but still remains my view of the matter – there is just more, imo, evidence to support my stance since these two threads.

All very valid points. It seems we are at least partially in agreement, what remains then is to nail down the nature of the connection between Mordremoth and sylvari. This is no easy task!

When I say that the sylvari are dragon minions, I don’t mean anything so simplistic as them being directly analogous to Branded, for example. I agree that Mordremoth, if it corrupts sylvari, does so through the Dream (or Nightmare), rather than directly seizing control of their body and minds in the way that, say, Zhaitan does. The sylvari being constructs rather than corrupted beings does not necessarily preclude them from being dragon minions – the Destroyers tend to be constructs, for example. And it seems clear from Malyck that the “default” mode of the sylvari is not dragon minion.

But the sylvari Dream does bear resemblance to the hivemind of the Destroyers we see in Eye of the North, which would put the Pale Tree in the place of the Great Destroyer. It’s just that part of their mind seems to be “walled-off”, as Vorpp puts it. The reason the sylvari appear to have free will (unlike dragon minions, sans Glint), could be down to the fact that Mordremoth simply hasn’t awakened yet. Although for gameplay reasons alone I think it’s unlikely that when Mordremoth wakes up, the sylvari go crazy and attack everyone (although it would be interesting to see it from a storyline perspective – the Pact would be completely shattered).

So maybe it’s the Pale Tree or the Ventari Tablet that are deliberately protecting the sylvari from that part of their nature. So the Nightmare Court would have to be the sylvari in “dragon mode”, or at least closer to it than your typical sylvari. But even the Nightmare Court believe that they have to fight the dragons – they just believe that they have to be free of the Ventari Tablet in order to do so effectively. Certainly, the Shadow of the Dragon the sylvari PC fights early on is surrounded by Nightmare Hounds (but not Courtiers), and Nightmare Hounds and Nightmare Husks are found wherever there are hints of Mordremoth’s corruption – Courtiers themselves, however, are not.

So I don’t think the Courtiers are being controlled by Mordremoth, but when it awakens, that situation may change. Maybe by twisting their own connection to the Pale Tree, the Courtiers are just inadvertently making themselves more susceptible to Mordremoth’s corruption. Similarly, maybe Scarlet’s refusal to follow the path set out for her by the Pale Tree made her less protected by the Tree, and more likely to fall to Mordremoth.

It’s probably worth reiterating that not all Dragons corrupt in the same way – Jormag, for example, can corrupt directly but also often will deceive its way into the minds of potential followers, for example the Sons of Svanir. This kind of corruption is far more subtle. It could be what we’re seeing here. So Nightmare Court are analogous to the Sons of Svanir more than the Icebrood – they’re aware of some sort of dragon influence, but believe they can use it for their own ends.

But what of Malyck? As you say, he’s not from the Pale Tree, and has no connection to Dream or Nightmare. The tree he came from is probably from the same cave that Ronan found, but he doesn’t feel connected to the Pale Tree at all. We don’t even know if he dreams. I would say that he probably does – he feels a sense of distance, and longing, which suggests some sort of empathic connection to the rest of “his” sylvari, but his sylvari most certainly aren’t connected to our sylvari. Could be that when Mordremoth awakens, our sylvari are protected from corruption by the Pale Tree and the Ventari Tablet – his people, however, may not be so lucky.

There’s still a couple of issues with this, though. It still doesn’t account for where the seeds themselves came from – I want to say they’ve been sitting around since the last cycle, but surely the former incarnation of the sylvari would have had some mention in the documents of the elder races. And it doesn’t explain why the sylvari tend to die rather than be corrupted. Maybe the dragon minions were only corrupted multiple times in CoE with great difficulty, and this usually doesn’t happen (if it did, we’d see dragon minion hybrids wherever the spheres of influence of two dragons overlap – and who’d be in charge? If that happened I’d probably expect the poor corrupted creature to just, well, die). Or it could be the seed that planted the Pale Tree was blessed with Forgotten magic, preventing it from being controlled easily. This definitely bears thinking about.

This hasn’t been my best post – it’s more a stream of consciousness, and you can see the ideas developing throughout. There’s quite a lot to consider, all told, but what is clear that the sylvari and Mordremoth are parts of the same puzzle. It’s just making all the pieces fit.

Taking all the assets i can find, this ley line business really makes 0 sense. The image and the dragon locations and how they cross under LA doesn’t line up with anything.

[img]http://northernshiverpeaks.org/uploads/gallery/album_1/gallery_1_1_119756.png[/img]

Apparently the img tag doesn’t work….

I can’t wait until tomorrow.

If the leaked spoilers are true, then this thread will be hilarious to review

Tamias.7059:

But the sylvari Dream does bear resemblance to the hivemind of the Destroyers we see in Eye of the North, which would put the Pale Tree in the place of the Great Destroyer.

This is an argument I see a lot, but it is wrong; the Dream is not like dragon mentality – in fact, of all dragon minion mentality, destroyers are the least similar to sylvari.

Firstly, all dragon minions seem to share the same hive mind quality – this, like the fact that all six Elder Dragons corrupt, seems to be a shared quality amongst the Elder Dragons. In Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows, we see in the same light as Eye of the North what happens when dragon champions die – namely we see this for Dragonspawn, Great Destroyer, Destroyer of Life, Morgus Lethe, and Captain Whiting. In all cases, the dragon minions scatter after their respective champion is slain. With the destroyers, they are outright stated to become mindless, while the other dragon minions are not, they simply flee.

Thus secondly: destroyers, being constructed from rock, appear to be mindless (Ogden Stonehealer: “With the death of their master, the Destroyers lost their coordination.” – I recall an exact statement, long time ago from an interview, stating they became mindless afterwards, same source that first called the Great Destroyer an alarm clock for Primordus, but could never find it) while other dragon minions, corrupted creatures which hold their original memories still, are not. This may not hold true for all non-destroyers (anything that’s a construct); and it should be noted that of constructs, this rule does not apply to dragon champions – in a similar light, weaker minions are closer to mindlessness even if corrupted former beings (see: Risen Thralls/Brutes – not a single one is really interactive beyond a couple lines, they just mindlessly, tacticlessly, swarm over their enemies).

Sylvari are nothing similar to either. Their mentality is all free, all equal, and all great. If they are at all dragon minions, then they are each on par to weaker lieutenants at the least.

And a third point: the Dream is not a hive mind. To use Killeen’s words from Ghosts of Ascalon:

“It isn’t mind reading, and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind. However, before coming into this world, all sylvari are united in the Dream of Dreams.”
Page 120

This is important to note, because dragon minions are connected into one big mass mind. The entire fight with the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny, or rather the death of it, revolves around the Dragonspawn being disconnected from that “mass mind” – or hive mind if you prefer – and the nearby Icebrood no longer recognizing it as a “friend”.

“We establish in EoD that the Dragonspawn communicates and controls its mininos with a telepathic link. So I think it’s a fair assumption that Jormag has some mind-scanning/mind-attacking/psionic powers and that manifests in his champions. In fact, the heroes defeat the Dragonspawn by breaking that link, so the ice minions turn on it, seeing it as “not of the body”." – Jeff Grubb
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png
For more links of post in above image.

This is even true for Zhaitan:
Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness#Dialogues

And in Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik could control his minions with his thoughts – or so it appears to me, never explicitly stated – during the fight against Destiny’s Edge (after Glint’s demise).

So no, the sylvari’s Dream of Dream experience is in no way akin to the destroyers – or rather, all dragon minions’ hive minds.

Tamias.7059:

The reason the sylvari appear to have free will (unlike dragon minions, sans Glint), could be down to the fact that Mordremoth simply hasn’t awakened yet.

Drakkar, Nornbear, Great Destroyer. To name three champions whom did not have the free will. Glint even guarded Kralkatorrik while he slept. Hibernation does not seem to affect the mentality of their minions. In fact, not even defeat (or death – it’s still unclear what the case is around Zhaitan) as one can see in The Ruined City of Arah explorable dungeon.

Tamias.7059:

So maybe it’s the Pale Tree or the Ventari Tablet that are deliberately protecting the sylvari from that part of their nature.

Ventari Tablet is in no way magical, and thus far our only evidence of countering Elder Dragon magic is some other form of magic (Forgotten magic, or whatever Zojja gleaned from Kudu’s research – which it should be noted, he somehow retained his own free will despite being corrupted by multiple dragon minions).

It’s also unlikely to be the Pale Tree doing it, considering it would mean that Malyck’s tree is doing the same. One can pass, in extreme flimsiness, that the Pale Tree is doing so because of some external influence, but that would then require Malyck’s tree to have experience the same influence.

Tamias.7059:

So I don’t think the Courtiers are being controlled by Mordremoth, but when it awakens, that situation may change. Maybe by twisting their own connection to the Pale Tree, the Courtiers are just inadvertently making themselves more susceptible to Mordremoth’s corruption. Similarly, maybe Scarlet’s refusal to follow the path set out for her by the Pale Tree made her less protected by the Tree, and more likely to fall to Mordremoth.

In both cases though, they abandon the Dream, not just the Pale Tree.

Tamias.7059:

[…] We don’t even know if he dreams. I would say that he probably does – he feels a sense of distance, and longing, which suggests some sort of empathic connection to the rest of “his” sylvari, but his sylvari most certainly aren’t connected to our sylvari. Could be that when Mordremoth awakens, our sylvari are protected from corruption by the Pale Tree and the Ventari Tablet – his people, however, may not be so lucky.

While I agree with your end statement, I disagree with the notion that he may have a Dream. While there certainly is a possibility of it – the strongest hint being the personal story step titled “A Different Dream” – but I would argue that the sense of distance and longing may simply because he’s alone. People, normal real living people, can feel this way easily by being apart from someone they like – or from people in general, or even just simply being different from all others around them. So it wouldn’t be odd in the least if Malyck’s feeling of distance and longing is simply loneliness because he’s different.

Tamias.7059:

Maybe the dragon minions were only corrupted multiple times in CoE with great difficulty, and this usually doesn’t happen (if it did, we’d see dragon minion hybrids wherever the spheres of influence of two dragons overlap – and who’d be in charge? If that happened I’d probably expect the poor corrupted creature to just, well, die).

We never actually see dragon minions overlap though – beyond CoE, that is. That’s the most peculiar part of it. We’re also told they fight if they meet, yet we see no meeting. As for what’s in charge. It really seems that Subject Alpha is just rampaging about, able to control all dragon minions (hence why they don’t fight each other), but at the same time we never see it interacting with the other three powerful dragon minions in CoE. It may be that they simply go insane from all the different commands exhibited.

munkiman.3068:

Taking all the assets i can find, this ley line business really makes 0 sense. The image and the dragon locations and how they cross under LA doesn’t line up with anything.

[img]http://northernshiverpeaks.org/uploads/gallery/album_1/gallery_1_1_119756.png[/img]

Apparently the img tag doesn’t work….

Not sure what you’re getting at. I can see that the white is the lines from the Chantry of Secrets globe, which is a “threat assessment” board – not related to magic (though odd that it doesn’t highlight Orr, Dragonbrand, or Far Shiverpeaks – and interesting that the Isles of Janthir gets a big o’ blot).

Vol.7601:

I can’t wait until tomorrow.

If the leaked spoilers are true, then this thread will be hilarious to review

The “leaked spoilers” only state that Mordremoth wakes up. Never states where or why.