Guild Wars 2

After the scare that Scarlet gave everyone, the Ministry is no doubt nervous about Jennah’s lack of an heir. We know that she has ruled for ten years now, and to put it nicely, she’s not getting any younger. It is high time for her to get married and produce an heir to continue the dynasty, should anything happen to her.

There are three potential candidates for her Prince: Lord Faren, Logan Thackeray, and Minister Caudecus. Lord Faren really has only one thing going for him: his nobility. Logan of course is crazy about the Queen, and she has at least not spurned him. He is also well-liked as the Commander of the Seraph, and his ancestry may bring the Throne some much needed popularity in Ebonhawke.

Now, Caudecus would not be the Queen’s choice, but of course he knows this. After failing to get rid of her the conventional way, his next option is to take a page from history. He will try to eliminate his competition so that he can marry her. Were he to succeed in doing so, he’d wait for her to produce an heir, and then find a way to kill her or have her declared incompetent so that he could rule as Regent for the infant monarch.

I don’t think he would try and marry her at all… He’d be more likely to encourage the citizens to overthrow their monarch and put him, as head of a governmental system, in place.

Considering the lack of a proper romance between Logan and Jennah I don’t think we’re going to see a wedding any time soon. The security of the kingdom is probably a little more important to the Ministry than the security of the royal blood line.

It’s stated in the personal story (lvl 30 human) that Logan and Jennah cannot be “officially” together because regardless of his stature, Logan is not nobility. Their love is real and mutual, so there’s no reason for her to spurn him out of feelings and there’s no reason for her to go after others except for the whole “avoid the wrath/propaganda of the Ministry” (aka why she cannot date/marry Logan). But even if she chooses the political soothing route of marrying Caudecus (a widower and probably old enough to be her father by the looks of it, given that Demni is about Jennah’s age in appearance), that doesn’t avoid the biggest issue: the corrupt Ministry regaining power.

She needs to eliminate the power players of the Ministery (which was only able to get so much power that they became corrupt due to Jennah’s youth when her father died) before she can marry, otherwise Caudecus will use whomever she marries as a weapon for why she’s not fit for leadership.

All I know, that if there will be wedding, please invite mr. R.R. Martin. Please.

A political marriage … that’s an interesting topic for a game.

I use Neil Strauss’ LAS VEGAS system, when determining love/hate relationships in fictional stories.

Look at Logan’s LAS VEGAS rating (each rating out of 5):

Looks 5 – Yes he got good looks. I am not certain if he is a 5 here. But I will give it to him.
Adaptability 0 – He is too straight forward to adapt to the changing situation. He doesn’t crack jokes. He isn’t spontaneous and rarely surprise anyone.
Strength 2 – He is very strong in fighting ability. But he got no mental power to push his own agenda. He just does whatever the Queen tells him to do. But I guess he can still force people to do things by displaying power. So I gave him a 2.
Value 2 – LOL what value? He doesn’t seem to know anything except protect the queen. But I guess he can tell you all about using weapons and guardian spells. And he can probably share quite a few battle scar stories in a pub. So I give him a 2 here.
Emotional Connection 1 – I guess Logan must have chatted a lot with the Queen, and understand her a bit, off screen. But we have no idea.
Goals 0 – Protect the queen. Protect the queen. Protect the queen….
Authenticity 0 – He looks like a strong and tough guardian on the outside. But inside he is a small puppy that just wish to follow Jennah all day long.
Self Worth 0 – The queen already said they cannot marry, and can never marry. Read again: NEVER! And yet Logan still sticks around like a puppy. Why would Logan be worth anything to Queen Jennah if she never had to work/sacrifice anything for him? Come on, even a no-name city guard is worth more than that.

So the queen said they can’t marry. Well then forget her and go find another woman. If Jennah doesn’t think Logan is “worth the risk” of losing her status and power, then neither is she worth his time. Stop sticking around like a little puppy. Go on epic quests, kill legendary monsters, loot legendary treasures, go to a bar, tell high tales and charm tons of women. Jennah is beautiful yes, but there are millions of other beautiful women out there.

So Logan is 10/40. That’s barely enough points to date bad/average woman. So I personally don’t think their relationship would work out. I am sorry, but women do not like men that they can “manipulate” 100%.

Logan would have to target very specific kind of women. Those who love strong and good looking men, and love listening to high tales on monster slaying and adventures. And if he (after breaking up with Jennah) start displaying the bad boy, cynical about women attitude he will increase his chances.

zwierz.9012:

All I know, that if there will be wedding, please invite mr. R.R. Martin. Please.

Came here for this.

zwierz.9012:

All I know, that if there will be wedding, please invite mr. R.R. Martin. Please.

The red wedding and purple wedding wont have anything on this…If you thought it was bloody before you ant seen nothing yet!

CHIPS.6018:

Adaptability 0 – He is too straight forward to adapt to the changing situation. He doesn’t crack jokes. He isn’t spontaneous and rarely surprise anyone.

………….

Logan

Oh dear. Oh, mercy. The White Mantle is upon me. Woe! Lamentation! Is this the end for poor Logan?

Logan

Isn’t Kudu a girl’s name?

Doesn’t crack jokes, huh? That’s ignoring the joke cracking that happens throughout Edge of Destiny.

And… “He is too straight forward to adapt to the changing situation.”

Logan Thackeray: I’m glad Jennah’s safe, but I realize now that her safety is temporary. Everything is temporary, unless the dragons can be stopped.
Logan Thackeray: The dragons can’t be defeated by one person, or even one nation. There has to be another way.
Logan Thackeray: Do you think we can overcome our mistakes, my friend? Make up for things we’ve done?
<Character Name>: I know we can, Logan. Mistakes make us human. It’s rising up again that makes us heroes.
Logan Thackeray: You’re right. I’ve been too focused on keeping the queen safe. I love being at her side, but maybe that’s not where I can best defend her – or Kryta.

Logan Thackeray: “Then I should remain as well. To help keep an eye on him.”
Queen Jennah: “No, no need for that. I appreciate your rescue, but you have your own journey. One that leads beyond Divinity’s Reach.”
Logan Thackeray: “There are dangers that threaten you here.”
Queen Jennah: “There are dangers that face all of us, Logan. All of our world. There are things only you can do.”
Logan Thackeray: “You’re right. So much has been left unfinished. Much to make amends for. I should go.”

Yup, doesn’t adapt at all.

CHIPS.6018:

-snip rest-

I think you’re ignoring half of Logan, honestly. But you have a tendency to ignore half of the story to further your argument, I’ve noticed, and trying to argue otherwise is like batting one’s head upside a wall.

Never read that book. Probably never will. Is it even worth the $5.99?

Unlike you Konig, I don’t waste my life away digging into every piece of detail about the lore. You might be right to say I don’t know half of the tiny details of the story. But this doesn’t give you the right to take a shot at me. I can say you spent way too much time on it. We would just be hauling insults at each other.

I have no problem with your knowledge of the story. You can correct me if you wish. But when you say “you have a tendency to ignore half of the story to further your argument, I’ve noticed, and trying to argue otherwise is like batting one’s head upside a wall.” you are just trying to start a fight for no reason. I wasn’t even talking to you.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I don’t think he would try and marry her at all… He’d be more likely to encourage the citizens to overthrow their monarch and put him, as head of a governmental system, in place.

I highly doubt that. It is human tradition in Tyria that only a descendant of King Doric can rule as a monarch. Overthrowing that would be a religious scandal (since Doric was chosen by the gods) and in theory put Caudecus in the same spot as the White Mantle. And since it is a pretty bad thing for a ruler zu be questioned and spurned by his people from the very beginning, that is rather not an option. At least not atm – the people of Kryta are still rather faithful, eventhough the gods are silent.

Queen Jennah is relatively safe for as long as she is the only descendant of Doric in Kryta (Samuelson would never be accepted by the Krytans imho, and I doubt he’d even be interested to leave Ascalon for that), so Caudecus’ beste hope for absolute power would indeed be marrying Jennah and producing an heir.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Considering the lack of a proper romance between Logan and Jennah I don’t think we’re going to see a wedding any time soon.

We don’t exactly know how intimate Logan and Jennah have been so far. Of course they would keep that a secret.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The security of the kingdom is probably a little more important to the Ministry than the security of the royal blood line.

The Ministry also knows that it is dependent upon the royal bloodline. A lot of things would need to happen before they could really do anything against that.
In the personal storyline, we can see that many ministers care more for their personal power than for the safety of Kryta. We also know that some corrupt ministers provided weapons for the centaurs just make the queen’s Seraph look pretty bad at doing their job.

CHIPS.6018:

I use Neil Strauss’ LAS VEGAS system, when determining love/hate relationships in fictional stories.

Look at Logan’s LAS VEGAS rating (each rating out of 5):
….snip….

I don’t agree with all of it, but it was interesting to read.

CHIPS.6018:

Never read that book. Probably never will. Is it even worth the $5.99?

Unlike you Konig, I don’t waste my life away digging into every piece of detail about the lore. You might be right to say I don’t know half of the tiny details of the story. But this doesn’t give you the right to take a shot at me. I can say you spent way too much time on it. We would just be hauling insults at each other.

I have no problem with your knowledge of the story. You can correct me if you wish. But when you say “you have a tendency to ignore half of the story to further your argument, I’ve noticed, and trying to argue otherwise is like batting one’s head upside a wall.” you are just trying to start a fight for no reason. I wasn’t even talking to you.

The Problem with Konig is that he also left out half the story in order to make his point. You can’t talk about what a person does now and what a person did 5+ years ago without atleast acknowledging this fact :::

Time passes in this game/story, and that time changes a person.

If Logan was a person with a certain sense of humor several years ago, he might not be anymore.

And If you take a moment to read through some recent (which is relative, its still almost a year old) dialogue between Logan and Anise in Scarlet’s Playhouse, Logan still seems way too hung up on protecting his queen to do anything else or trust anyone else with protecting the queen, like he was the year before, and like he was several years before that. It seems like he is infact, not that open to changing himself for good or bad.

As far as the Queen being the last heir:
During the human story, when it comes time for you to select an Order to join, Scholar Josir says, “We can’t allow anything to happen to Queen Jennah. She’s the last of the royal line!” which then receives the reply, “Perhaps not the last… but you’re right. Without Queen Jennah, we’d lose our treaty with the charr.” From Agent Ihan.
Interpret that as you will.

Depending on how you interpret ‘royal line’, that could be a reference to Wade Samuelson, who in the Vigil 30-40 storyline mentions being descended from Ascalonian kings (and, thus, that branch of Doric’s line).

Regarding Caudecus and Doric’s line: I don’t think he particularly cares, nor does he really have a huge reason to. Humans today aren’t so hung up on religion as they used to be. Possibly more to the point, the concept of ‘divine right to rule’ was in European history as well, and under the right circumstances monarchs can and have been removed from real power or kicked aside entirely.

It would probably be smoother for him to have Jennah declared unfit to rule and in need of a regent, but once you remove the monarch from having any power of their own (even in many of the remaining European monarchies, the royal family does have some legal power as a check on the elected body, although it’s not a power that’s likely to be exercised except as part of a major scandal) it’s a small step to rationalising that you don’t need a monarch at all. However, if Caudecus could engineer the extinction of the (known) royal family, he’d probably consider that an acceptable alternative – the nation has to be ruled by somebody, after all, and if the royal line is extinct, who better than the head of the elected ministry?

(Never mind that I’m willing to bet that the ministry elections are neither free nor fair in practice)

I’d also be willing to bet that if push comes to shove, Caudecus can find (read: forge) documents to suggest that one of his ancestors was a royal kitten. If you refer back to the relevant quests in GW1, the evidence for Salma’s descent was actually pretty circumstantial.

I think that Jennah is likely the last direct (from all the previous rulers) heir to the throne. However, many of the nobles are probably her relatives, however distant, and one of them would take her place should something happen to her. However, that sort of circumstance often leads to wars of succession, with multiple parties with equally valid (or not so valid) claims fighting over the throne. Obviously it would be best for Jennah to produce an heir in order to avoid any conflicts.

Throughout history, very few monarchs have anything close to absolute power, and many were little more than puppets for powerful families or surrounding governmental entities. Jennah may not want to marry yet, but she may not actually be given a choice.

pepsione.6841:

Queen Jennah. She’s the last of the royal line!" which then receives the reply, "Perhaps not the last…

draxynnic.3719:

Depending on how you interpret ‘royal line’, that could be a reference to Wade Samuelson

It sure could be. Queen Jennah and Samuelson are the only decendants from King Doric’s royal bloodline that we “know” of. But considering that the royal bloodline has been around for about 1350 years now, it is highly likely that there exists more decendants (though it may not be possible to prove their heritage).

Let’s do a simple calculation: Doric and all his decendants give birth to two children each (in average), at the age of 33,33 (for simplicity). This means that the number of living individuals with royal blood would multiply by approximately 8 every 100 years (“population growth”).

0 AE = 1 Individual(s) of Royal Blood (IoRB)
100 AE = 8^1 = 8 IoRB (enough to establish Royal Families in both Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta)
200 AE = 8^2 = 6 IoRB
1325 AE = 8^13 = 549 755 813 888 IoRB

Now, bear in mind, I haven’t included the possibility of some not having any children, early deaths, and most of all: inter-marriage which will decrease the final number quite a lot. And I’m sure my calculation has a lot of other flaws (e.g. Doric would have had kids around 100 BE not 0 AE)…
But, nevertheless, it is not at all unlikely that the entire Tyrian population could have some sort of heritage claim back to King Doric.

The question really is: after over 1000 years, how do the Tyrians “prove” certain individuals more royal than others? Does blood really matter that much, or could politics and “forged” bloodlines play a stronger part than what we know of?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Titus_The_Third/Tyrian_Royalty_family_tree

Sorry for drifting off topic.
Back on topic: yes, it’s time for a royal wedding. And I think she should “marry off” her bloodline competition: Mr Wade Samuelson. Such destroying (or at least decreasing) the potential for the Ascalonian Kingdom to ever return :P

Before we start I want to say I don’t know much about the lore of this game and just came here because the idea sounded quite nice.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s stated in the personal story (lvl 30 human) that Logan and Jennah cannot be “officially” together because regardless of his stature, Logan is not nobility.

I’m intrugued in this notion, but it raises some questions:
- nobility marrying nobility , aren’t there problems with inbreeding? So it isn’t logical to
assume that they have to introduce new genes at regular to reduce the risks?

- How much is actualy known of Logan’s heritage? And how much is true?

-Also why must Queen Jennah marry Nobility? Because to be quite honest Logan has a high standing (remember he helped slaying Zhaitan who made human corpses into mindless slaves). So the populous would be quite accepting of such marriage. So is there any laws/magic regarding this, that are unchangeable?

-Also is there a possibility to ascend to nobility (a lower form of nobility perhaps but nobility nontheless.)?

If anyone could answer them I would be happy.

Also if I remember correctly the statement came from Countess Anise (correct me if wrong). But from what I understand from playing the game is that Anise does not have Logan in high regards (I’m thinking about the scarlet drama in Divinty’s Reach, poor Logan). So would it possible that Anise was lying and there is a way. (Would be some cool living story stuff. First gain Anise’s approval or find the method yourself and then help Logan to execute it.)

Chrispy.5641:

Time passes in this game/story, and that time changes a person.

If Logan was a person with a certain sense of humor several years ago, he might not be anymore.

I wasn’t ignoring that, actually, given that all of my quoted pieces of evidence were from the personal story and dungeons.

From start to end, he’s someone who adapts (starts out in EoD as a charr hater, grows to brolove Rytlock; becomes overly protective of the Queen due to Snaff’s death, grows to accept she can defend herself, and grows further/shrinks to hate not being in the know of the Queen’s safety), and someone who tells jokes in situations (a trait that has remained persistent since day 1 of our knowledge of him, and remains to this day though he’s grown colder after Snaff’s death). This was my entire point – I didn’t ignore half of the story there, but was showing that this happens, both in old Logan and current Logan.

Chrispy.5641:

And If you take a moment to read through some recent (which is relative, its still almost a year old) dialogue between Logan and Anise in Scarlet’s Playhouse, Logan still seems way too hung up on protecting his queen to do anything else or trust anyone else with protecting the queen, like he was the year before, and like he was several years before that. It seems like he is infact, not that open to changing himself for good or bad.

It seems more like a case of Gwen – one step forward, one step backwards. He makes progress, but then he withdraws back to his old self once the reason to make progress (killing Zhaitan in this case) is gone.

Though I wouldn’t say Logan doesn’t trust others with protecting the queen. Logan got kittened off because he was completely left out of the loop for protection. He didn’t even know the queen had extra precautions and protections – and this was done so Logan would give a “proper response”. That’s why he got annoyed at Jennah.

Tim.6450:

- nobility marrying nobility , aren’t there problems with inbreeding? So it isn’t logical to assume that they have to introduce new genes at regular to reduce the risks?

The nobility would be quite large, so I doubt there’s really an issue with inbreeding even if folks end up being second cousins thrice removed – that’s far enough away genetically to bring such issues to being a risk. Though “nobility marrying nobility” is just the accepted common practice – it was said recently in an interview (I think a livestream?) that while it does happen, it’s typically looked down for nobility to marry a commoner.

Tim.6450:

- How much is actualy known of Logan’s heritage? And how much is true?

That he’s the descendant of Gwen Thackeray is all that’s presented, incidentally enough, though he considers himself Krytan (and, I believe, did even before meeting Jennah and joining the Seraph).

Tim.6450:

-Also why must Queen Jennah marry Nobility? Because to be quite honest Logan has a high standing (remember he helped slaying Zhaitan who made human corpses into mindless slaves). So the populous would be quite accepting of such marriage. So is there any laws/magic regarding this, that are unchangeable?

The personal story step I mentioned is before Zhaitan’s demise. At that point, Logan’s just one of the highest ranked members of the Seraph (Captain) and a renowned hero who slew 3 dragon champions in Destiny’s Edge. Though I say “just” that’s quite the feat as it usually takes (lorewise) an army to take down a dragon champion – if they can. But as I mentioned, this is brought out as an issue that the Ministry would take advantage of, not so much as something that wouldn’t be accepted by the populous.

Sadly, seems that the line I recall isn’t up on wiki. I recall this from either The Trap or Kellach’s Attack, as I never did The Queen’s Justice; but the one I didn’t do does have a similar line by Jennah when asking her if she cares for Logan: “He is like an angel sent from Dwayna to be at my side. If things were different, or if Kryta were at peace. then perhaps…” Another, less similar line, is “No, Advocate. I have enough servants—I want a partner. Logan must be free to make his own decisions. I made such a mistake once before. I won’t make it again.”

So maybe I’m misremembering the bit about the Ministry and Logan not being nobility… though I could have sworn I saw that… and it may be that Jennah loves Logan but dislikes how he acts more like a servant than a lover.

Tim.6450:

-Also is there a possibility to ascend to nobility (a lower form of nobility perhaps but nobility nontheless.)?

Nobility had to come from somewhere, right? So most likely, it would be like our own nobility of old – promoted to such rankings by the royalty as a reward for service to the crown.

Tim.6450:

Also if I remember correctly the statement came from Countess Anise (correct me if wrong). But from what I understand from playing the game is that Anise does not have Logan in high regards (I’m thinking about the scarlet drama in Divinty’s Reach, poor Logan). So would it possible that Anise was lying and there is a way. (Would be some cool living story stuff. First gain Anise’s approval or find the method yourself and then help Logan to execute it.)

Possible. But I think removing or reducing the corruption in the Ministry would be a requirement first. Like eliminating Caudecus.

Yes, nobles marrying nobles (or royals marrying royals) led to all kinds of inbreeding in the real world. In Tyria, I think this is not their concern (nor were royalty concerned about it back in the day, when the risks weren’t clearly understood). There have been periods of history though when the reigning monarch handed out noble titles like candy to important followers, particularly after a victory over their enemies, when there were conquered lands to divide. Logan has certainly done enough to merit being given a title.

What really needs to happen is for Logan to gain some self-confidence in regards to the Queen. He virtually worships her, but that is not the sort of affection she wants from him. He needs some reason to see himself as more of her equal, either by lowering her stature or raising his. Perhaps the prospect of her being forced to marry Caudecus would be enough to give him that kick that he needs.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tim.6450:

- How much is actualy known of Logan’s heritage? And how much is true?

That he’s the descendant of Gwen Thackeray is all that’s presented, incidentally enough, though he considers himself Krytan (and, I believe, did even before meeting Jennah and joining the Seraph).

IIRC, he was part of Ebon Vanguard before he joined with Rytlock and Caithe (or.. more true, they all joined together). His brother was part of the Seraph, but it wasn’t until his brother died to branded at Ebonhawke he officially joined the Seraph and viewed himself as Krytan.

No, he was a mercenary (though he called himself a scout) who happened to have been hired by Ebonhawke to guard some caravans and this included ambushing charr. As one of Logan’s unit says: “We’ve never faced charr. We’re not Vanguard or Seraph.” (page 23)

Personal opinion in comparison to what you’ve written:

Looks 5 – I have word from girls I know who play the game that he is indeed a 5 out of 5, although at least one of these also seemed to think Jurah (old Master of Whispers) was a 5/5 as well, so take that as you see fit, lol.

Adaptability 3 – He is shown in Edge of Destiny to be actually quite adaptable, allowing him to set up traps for a charr army, and keeping his men alive longer than seemed possible against terrible odds. On top of that, he overcame his distrust in charr and was able to make multiple wise choices in the fights against the Elder Dragon champions. For all of those I would give him a 5, but the recent story has crippled him slightly. After he made a choice that lead to a friend’s death, it seems to have slowed his actions, made him think too hard before acting, and tied him to one location. He has to keep the queen alive not only because he loves her, but because letting her die would mean that Snaff died for nothing as well, and he couldn’t bear that burden. We see him regain a little bit of his adaptability during the end of the PS, and a little bit of his clingy-ness to the queen in the LS, so I give him a 3 (thinking hopefully for his development). I like to personally believe that his clingy-ness in the LS is a result of ArenaNet’s “happening at the same point as the player’s story” stance.

Strength 4 – I mean, having the ability to 5 man two Dragon Champions (Morgus Lethe required the Lion’s Arch navy’s assistance) gives a man a lot of credibility in the strength department. On top of that, he is able to make his own decisions on the best way to protect the queen on the Seraph around him. Remember, having your agenda being “Protect the Queen” is different from always following the Queen’s word as law.

Value 4 – Really? You don’t see his value? He’s lead the Seraph in rooting out corruption in the nobility, stopped bandit plots, helped in the rescue of Queen Jennah at Caudecus Manor, shielded the players from the powers of Gaheron Baelfire, rallied the troops of Ebonhawke and freed the charr captives to fight against Kralk’s minions giving Jennah the time she needed to save them all, has killed multiple Dragon Champs, and sacrificed himself to let us get away to fight Zhaitan (the fact that he survived sacrificing himself is beyond the point). He’s proved himself multiple times to be more of an asset then a burden, and I would like to point out that many of these instances were when he was in his “brainwashed by his love for Queen Jennah” state.

Emotional Connection 3 – He is fully devoted to Queen Jennah, and I’ll agree that he’s quite a bit too devoted to her, which is why I give him a 3 instead of higher. Queens need people who are willing to challenge their choices in order to keep testing their convictions on the right course of action. But Queen Jennah makes it obvious in, at least the personal story that I went through, that she very much loves him, but with the corruption in the Ministry she cannot marry him and give them a foothold against her, especially when she can see the terrible path they would lead the nation down.

Goals 2 – I’ll give you that he is a bit one tracked here. In Edge of Destiny, he never really held long term goals, he mostly just tried to live in the moment. Then he met Jennah and she became everything for him. I can’t say he is wrong in his devotion for her, but I will give it to you that he doesn’t have any personal goals, but seems to put her goals at the forefront.

Authenticity 4 – I read this definition differently then you, perhaps, but Logan appears to be exactly the same person on the inside and out. He is not deceptive in any way that I can see.

Self Worth 4 – You don’t think Logan has confidence? He obviously knows that he’s an excellent fighter, and makes many decisions pretty fast (though obviously letting the PC choose once and a while for mechanics reasons). You think that just because he loves a woman who can’t marry him he has low self worth, that is not the case. Because she loves him back, but she has to put her people above herself.

29/40 – I guess I like him better then you do.

For strength, don’t forget that Logan was able to lift a big charr in heavy metal armor with one hand.

Narcemus.1348:

Personal opinion in comparison to what you’ve written:

I agree with some of your points, like adaptability. I just hasn’t read that book. I also never played though the human story since I don’t have a human character.

My opinion on Logan are from reading the wiki and from his actions in the CM dungeon and LS. In there he hasn’t shown much flexibility. “Getting angry and start shouting” in CM and LS isn’t cool. Logan gets angry over “a surprising/changing situation” shows that he isn’t very adaptive

A highly adaptive person is well collected and keeps his emotions in control during a rapidly changing situation. Only with a cool head (instead of anger and panic) can a person make the logical choice here. This is a very important trait for a leader.

Some of the other points are misunderstood. Value for example isn’t about how valuable Logan is as an ally. Value here means “a man who is hard to match by other men.” More specifically it is about “a bit of knowledge in pretty much everything”. It also means “bring value to a conversation” in any situation.

Logan does know A LOT about combat, and that is “value”. He also have a ton of adventure stories to tell girls. That’s great. However it seems that’s all he knows. That means his chances of getting “a girl” is “limited” by whatever that girl is interested in adventures and combat in the first place. If a girl have zero interest in adventures and combat, then Logan will have a hard time getting her. That’s why I gave him a 2/5.

A highly value man (5/5) would know a bit of everything. So whatever hobby/interest that girl have, or whatever topic that happens to come up, that man can talk to her about it for hours.

That said in the GW universe combat and adventure is a HUGE topic. Death and even Armageddon is just around the corner. So in GW there will be a lot of girls interested in combat and adventures. That’s why I said if Logan breaks up with Jennah and then develops a cynical attitude toward women, he have a decent/good chance of success with women.

Strength does include physical strength and fighting ability. But what is more important is his ability to take charge. A man with “strength” means he have a commanding presence. People look up to and respects him and his opinions. On a personal level women feels protected and taken care of by him. He will never get pushed around by a woman. Instead he would listen to her out of his own free will, and he make sure she understand this.

Please read the following to get an overview idea.

http://www.attractology.com/articles/outer-game/creating-attraction/

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For strength, don’t forget that Logan was able to lift a big charr in heavy metal armor with one hand.

He also grown a bit for this scene, IIRC. I always took that scene as a necessity for the Logan Fleeman/Rytlock Blingstone plot, but never for a moment considered that it is anything more than a hollywood cliche, impossibility of the feat aside.

Never occurred to me that Logan can actually be that strong, other than for the needs of that scene with physics flawed so harshly (Doesn’t matter how strong Logan is, Rytlock’s weight would still flip him over the edge, because Logan is half the mass of Rytlock, plus Rytlock has acceleration and Logan has no support – ergo, two crispy critters if physics would be applied).

Logan’s chances of getting a date/girl is limited?

Walk around DR, plenty of women gossiping about him. Even some men NPCs tired of hearing the women talk about him.

Chrispy.5641:

The Problem with Konig is that he also left out half the story in order to make his point. You can’t talk about what a person does now and what a person did 5+ years ago without atleast acknowledging this fact :::

Time passes in this game/story, and that time changes a person.

If Logan was a person with a certain sense of humor several years ago, he might not be anymore.

And If you take a moment to read through some recent (which is relative, its still almost a year old) dialogue between Logan and Anise in Scarlet’s Playhouse, Logan still seems way too hung up on protecting his queen to do anything else or trust anyone else with protecting the queen, like he was the year before, and like he was several years before that. It seems like he is infact, not that open to changing himself for good or bad.

Logan hasn’t changed at all and it’s a flaw in the writing imo.

It’s not that Logan has lost his sense of humour or things that make him interesting, it’s that Logan’s recent appearances have been with the Queen. Look through Logan’s history and the times when he’s the least interesting as a character are when he’s with the Queen. ArenaNet may have done the impossible and conceived the only love story that is actually not better than Twilight.

Players didn’t buy the romance from the beginning. The discussions around Edge of Destiny often focused on how unbelievable the love interest was and to this day people still think Logan is brainwashed by mesmer magic because to many people that’s the most believable scenario (despite being told otherwise).

Logan’s character is handled all wrong. They portray him as the white knight that protects the queen, but this queen doesn’t need protection. She’s one of the most powerful mesmers in Tyria (isn’t the royal line stronger than usual?) and she has her own personal guard – the Shining Blade (led by Anise, someone the writers take every opportunity to demonstrate is good at stuff). If Logan wanted to protect the queen that bad, why not become one of the Shining Blade instead?

That leaves us with the things that Logan actually is, the good stories that either aren’t being told or compete with the romance I doubt many people like. Captain of the Seraph. We see this a bit in the Personal Story and as long as it doesn’t intersect with the queen it’s actually fairly enjoyable. As Konig pointed out, he even has a sense of humour (one of the only DE members to make me laugh). Captain of the Seraph should be a man of the people, they should represent the struggle of the Krytans and the fight to survive, not always pining after or trying to protect the queen.

Logan is also the GW2 legacy of Gwen and Keiran – two Ascalonian heroes and iconic of GW1. We won’t see the humans retake Ascalon but why they don’t utilise Logan in Ebonhawke is beyond me. How awesome would it be to see Logan “finding himself” and reflecting on his family’s legacy at Gwen’s grave leading him to his personal quest to take up that fight? It would be a nice throwback to GW1 lore and embrace a part of Logan’s identity that is actually interesting.

On top of all that, as a member of Destiny’s Edge he’s probably Tyria’s most accomplish human hero. We don’t need a repeat of Kralkatorrik. How much cooler would it be if Logan went into the Crystal Desert and his new love interest was an Elonian warrior? Instead of “needing” protection, they could be equals and fight together.

Jennah and Logan is a terrible “star crossed lovers” story. They don’t make each other better, the relationship makes Logan worse (a huge red flag for ending a relationship). Jennah doesn’t need him and her political position would actually lead to some far more interesting match-making elsewhere. I actually really like the idea of Caudecus, it’s certainly not romantic but real monarchy’s often aren’t. I don’t think we need a royal wedding (unless it was a political marriage of convenience it wouldn’t make sense – Jennah and Logan are very separate right now) but I would love to see this royal romance with Logan end and see Tyria utilise the politics plot a bit more with Jennah and her would be king. As long as the tengu are invited to the wedding, I’m sure they’d love to celebrate the marriage of a female human mesmer leader, it’s not like they have had bad experiences with one or the past or that they are the kind of race that remembers things like that.

Logan (I’m unsure if it’s posted here) may be so defensive about Jennah because he feels like if she dies/gets wounded, then he left DE (causing Snaff to die) for nothing.

While it’s not stated as such, it’s a very likely thing.

Also “That up that fight?” You mean against the Charr? Which is over now? :P

Shiren.9532:

Logan hasn’t changed at all and it’s a flaw in the writing imo.

The only character who never changes from beginning to end of what we see of them, is Scarlet Briar.

If you compare Logan at the beginning of Edge of Destiny, to the Logan at the end of the novel – they’re two completely different people. Logan at the beginning of the personal story and Logan at the defeat of Zhaitan – again, two different people. There is change and development. For all of Destiny’s Edge.

The issue is that to keep with “avoiding spoilers” ArenaNet backtracked on all of DE that we’ve seen (aka all but Zojja) to how they are at the beginning of the personal story. Which breaks the entire point of the dungeon story paths and lvl 1-30 personal story involvement with them.

So he does change. He just backpedaled thanks to the Living World (just another bad thing about it).

Kalavier.1097:

Logan’s chances of getting a date/girl is limited?

Walk around DR, plenty of women gossiping about him. Even some men NPCs tired of hearing the women talk about him.

Which is exactly why Logan would be a more interesting character if he breaks up with Jennah, go on epic quests, and get tons of other girls. He is much better off being a playboy guardian than the queen’s little puppy.

I agree with Shiren. Logan became a worst character because he had to date Jennah. He is a little puppy that keep chasing Jennah when:

1) Jennah flat out said they can never marry.
2) He doesn’t even know that Jennah is fake, for a long long time now. So clearly they hasn’t even go for a walk and hold each other’s hand for a very long time.
3) Jennah have indicated that she doesn’t trust him completely, because she never told him about her illusion. What other secrets is she holding?

So this girl said she will never marry you. She refuse to even let you hold her hand. She rather entrust her life with another person (Anise and others) than you. Does this sound like a healthy relationship to you?

Now we can go all day long about “But she is the queen and the situation is different! This is how it is gonna be. Logan have to take it or leave it.”

If so, I say he should leave it. It aren’t worth it. Fact is this relationship is BS for Logan. There is no way for this relationship to exist other than Logan being a little puppy. And hence Logan was forced to be a weak character.

Jennah is REAL.

She isn’t an illusion. Hell, a devpost basically said the evidence of her being real was there. Making it a fun/oddball theory, but most likely not true.

Kalavier.1097:

Jennah is REAL.

She isn’t an illusion. Hell, a devpost basically said the evidence of her being real was there. Making it a fun/oddball theory, but most likely not true.

Yes of course Jennah exists as a person. The question is where is the real her? If even Logan (#1 lover/boyfriend) do not know, who does?

When was the last time they held each other’s hand?

Jennah is a real person. Anise is a real person.

There is no giant conspiracy or fake ID. Jennah was replaced by an illusion for the Jubilee for safety reasons, in the city normally there is no reason for such.

CHIPS, you’re judging the credibility of characters off of what is effectively tinfoil hat theories, and assuming said theories (practically debunked) are real.

Would be nice to see Jennah and Logan finally get married. I’m sure Jennah could just void the ancient laws and make a law stating she can marry whoever she pleases. I can imagine the Ministry would get pretty upset over it, but there isn’t much they could do to stop her. I doubt anyone in the populace would have an issue with their Queen marrying their greatest hero, Logan, member of Destiny’s Edge.

I guess I just don’t see it happening though. There isn’t really enough of a story-driven -need- for it to happen, so if it happened, it’d come off as pointless, or worse; generalization that Jennah, “needs a man.”

Strictly speaking, though, she does, or however strong her own leadership is, she won’t have an heir. While Elizabeth I of England was in a similar boat, she had a nephew to declare as heir (and, cunningly, unite England and Scotland under one throne in the process), while Jennah doesn’t have an heir, or at least one that is publicly known.

Legally speaking, the impression I get is that Kryta’s government is at about the stage where the monarch does not have the power to arbitrarily change laws – instead, any such new laws needs to pass both the Ministry and the Crown, so the Ministry could block any such laws. Realistically, a strong monarch always has the option to try to dissolve such bodies entirely, but that carries risks (that was the action that ultimately led to Charles I losing his head) and Jennah certainly isn’t in a position to be as sure about her support to disband or flout the Ministry.

That said, in fact, I don’t think the problem is really so much that there’s a law preventing royalty from marrying distinguished non-nobility, but that there’s a tradition and expectation that they will marry nobility – Jennah probably wouldn’t break any laws by breaking that tradition, but it may lead to a loss of support and more ammunition for her political opponents.

A royal wedding type arc in the living story would be awesome, especially if they handle it like they did Gwen and Kieran’s wedding. So long as there aren’t any more bombings in the city. That part of the Living Story left a bad taste in my mouth and I almost walked away from the game.

Putting aside all the Logan discussion – I don’t think that Queen Jennah has many known relatives within the Krytan nobility. Acutually, I don’t think she has any at all, due to the fact that we never hear of a Krytan (thus not counting Samuelsson) duke of any kind.

Also, I don’t think that the ‘divine right to rule’ can be as ‘easily’ put aside as it was in reality. Please remember that we do play in a high fantasy setting in which the existence of several gods is a proven fact. They remain silent since 250 years, yes, but I don’t think that is enough to make that tradition unimportant in ‘high society’. Caudecus would face a TON of contest, and I don’t think it is even in his specific interest to ascend to the throne. He wants power – how he achieves it isn’t important to him.

Essarious Quw.8946:

A royal wedding type arc in the living story would be awesome, especially if they handle it like they did Gwen and Kieran’s wedding. So long as there aren’t any more bombings in the city. That part of the Living Story left a bad taste in my mouth and I almost walked away from the game.

It wasn’t the first time. Something good are usually followed by something terrible.

The human noble description states than many nobles can trace their lineage back to ancient kings, which I assume refers to Krytan royal family. That would mean that in case Jennah dies childless, there would be actually plenty of candidates for the Krytan throne.

Just because we haven’t seen any Jennah’s relatives – however distant – doesn’t mean there aren’t any.

Agroman.7190:

Also, I don’t think that the ‘divine right to rule’ can be as ‘easily’ put aside as it was in reality. Please remember that we do play in a high fantasy setting in which the existence of several gods is a proven fact. They remain silent since 250 years, yes, but I don’t think that is enough to make that tradition unimportant in ‘high society’. Caudecus would face a TON of contest, and I don’t think it is even in his specific interest to ascend to the throne. He wants power – how he achieves it isn’t important to him.

Belief in divinity is a lot weaker now even among humans than in the 1070s, though, and if Caudecus managed to get Jennah removed from power by proving her ‘incompetence’, then it’s not a huge step to go from saying that one monarch is incompetent to say that any insurance the gods may previously have provided that the royal line is worthier of power than anyone else has expired.

Additionally, if Jennah’s line was to be rendered extinct, then Caudecus could just say “well, we need SOMEONE to rule in these days when the gods aren’t going to swoop in and appoint someone… and I have the experience”.

I suspect that Caudecus would probably prefer not to have to deal with the hassle of overturning tradition and possibly going up against religion – but I suspect if he feels he has to to get what he wants, then he’ll just view it as one more obstacle to be overcome.

Well of course belief in divinty is weaker these days than it was back in the 1070s when the gods still dabbled in the matters of mortals. There was no way to even doubt their existence back then.
250 years of silence are enough to weaken the populace in their faith, but imho not enough for such a step. Caudecus would have to use a LOT of his influence to achieve this, and currently, he is in no situation to do so.

As for Nobles who can trace their ancestry back to ancient kings, this part is just a contradiction in GW lore. Some sources state this, while others say that Jennah and Samuelsson are the last heirs of Dorics blood.

Currently, no.

But he’s trying to get there, and it’s a logical conclusion of his campaign to discredit the queen – it’s a relatively short step to go from ‘this royal is no longer fit to rule’ to ‘maybe there’s no longer anything special about the royal line that makes them more suited to rule at all’. I’m not saying that it would be easy, that it can be done tomorrow, or that Caudecus wouldn’t seize power without disenfranchising the royal line if that turns out to be more convenient – but I’m sure it’s not an option that he’d reject if he thought he had a shot at it.

Part of the reduced belief in divinity isn’t just that it’s possible to be rationally atheistic now, but also that people have reduced confidence that the gods have their proverbial backs. Wouldn’t be hard for Caudecus to spin a yarn about how the gods had guaranteed that the royal line would make good rulers in the past (despite evidence to the contrary…) but any such guarantee is gone and that now it’s time for a more… merit-based system.

Restricted to the nobility, of course, because clearly commoners don’t have the breeding or education to understand matters of government policy.

(Hypocrisy? From a politician? Say it isn’t so!)

Remember, remember, the day the Queen gaves us the Watchknights, and they started killing civilians.

/evil