Guild Wars 2

So I just realized something potentially major for GW2.

What if the Jade Wind in Cantha was caused by an elder dragon? I don’t recall Abaddon ever having petrification powers, and before Shiro was an envoy he was just a really powerful bodyguard.

If you look carefully, you can decode various cryptic messages throughout the game to mention the land “Unwaking”. One of these references is in the Facet quest line in GW1, and another is the encrypted book in the Durmand Priory. Furthermore, in the Sylvari storyine is an NPC who references a “distant shore”, “land of Unwaking” a “cave”.

When I hear Unwaking, I think of Unwaking waters in GW1. Here is the description:

The site of Cantha’s most infamous murder, the Harvest Temple in which Emperor Angsiyan was struck down by the treacherous Shiro Tagachi still stands. It is the geographic epicenter of the Jade Wind; a place of fear, danger, and bitter memories. Here the mighty dragon Kuunavang still lurks in the caverns beneath the temple, utterly corrupted by the proximity of Shiro’s death wail.

— In-game description

From this description we know there is a cave with a Dragon Champion (Kuunavang) who guards it. We also know it is the center of which the Jade Wind originates. Furthermore, it is where the DRAGON emperor goes to perform his ritual!

While the harvest ceremony is in worship of Dwayna, I believe they may in fact be mistaking an Elder Dragon for Dwayna. Considering the fact many mistook Glint to be a creation of the Gods, it is possible they are unintentionally worshiping Mordemoth.

I find it just too coincidental that there are references to a land ‘Unwaking" and the fact a Dragon Champion is guarding something. It’s also too coincidental the Jade Wind originated from the same place which Kuunavang guards, spreading a corruption very similar to Kralkatorik’s glass petrification.

What we have seen common with all Elder Dragons (including Zhaitan) is they corrupt the land they roam around. Whereas Zhaitan creates undeath in nature, Kralkatorik melts the land into glass, Jormag has his corrupted ice, and Primordus manipulates molten lava, Mordremoth possibly turns thing into stone!

I also found it very notable we have a mandatory Jade Sea fractal with Jade Elementals, considering we never had Jade Elementals in GW1. Are they the equivalent of Jormag’s Icebrood Elemental?

I also found it suspicious each successor of the Dragon Empire (Including Master Togo) is capable of using Dragon Empire Rage – A powerful spell capable of wiping out armies!

According to the GW1 wiki, Shiro Tagachi stole the powers of the Emperor when he was killed, and the power of “Dwayna” augmented the Jade Wind. But was it really Dwayna? Or was it an Elder Dragon?

Anyways, discuss your thoughts. Does the Harvest Temple hide an elder dragon?

The Jade Wind was caused, from the stories, as Shiro was struck down and died. Supposedly when Shiro slew the Emperor he took in some sort of divine-given power and this made him more dangerous than before – where before he had been simply gifted and talented as a swordsman now he was almost unstoppable.

What was called the Jade Wind was the result an incredibly powerful person aiming a death curse at his enemies . . . the Luxons and Kurzicks. Descendants and kin of the ones who struck him down.

I find the fact that your Theory hinges on whether or not Kuunavang is a Dragon Champ. Something I find remarkably hard to believe and have seen no plausible evidence to support it. The fact that Glint was a Dragon Champ does not instantly mean that Kunnevang is as well.

The Forgotten freed Glint, and were subsequently here caretakers. I have gotten the impression that the Forgotten, whenever they involve themselves with anything, it is a jailor’s and watchers. I think they feared that Glint may relapse and return to her Master, and so diligently watched over her in the same manner that they maintained forces in the Domain of Anguish to keep watch over Abbadon.

Kuunavang has no such jailors. She has, as far as the history of Cantha goes, I have not seen or heard of any word that insinuated that Kuunavang was anything but friendly towards humans (save for the nasty business of being corrupted by the Jade Wind). Further, Glint remained visibly a creature of Kralkatorik, a Crystal Dragon Champion. After fighting Kuunavang, her corruption is removed both mentally and physically returning her to her former state. As far as I’m aware, the physical effects of corruption have yet to be removed from any Dragon Spawn.

So until somebody can supply solid evidence that Kuunavang is a Dragon Champion, I’m simply not buying this theory.

Your “realization” has been brought up probably five or so ties by now (most recent discussion ) – and was even thought up to be related to any Elder Dragon previously as well. And nothing shows it to be so. In fact, there’s more evidence to argue against such ties than for.

1. Mordremoth has more influence on continental Tyria than the deep sea dragon – this implies that it is, in fact, closer than the DSD which lies between continental Tyria/Elona and Cantha.
2. The Jade Wind wasn’t caused by Abaddon, but rather Shiro twisting power given by Dwayna (possibly the other gods) that he stole from the emperor. In other words, we know the source of the power for the Jade Wind. To go out and say “but they’re wrong!” just because is rather foolhardy. “But somewhere along the way, dark forces corrupted Shiro Tagachi, forces that he sought out against the laws of his empire and his gods. He learned the ways of forbidden sorcery and engaged in studies and rituals well beyond the disciplines of the Assassin.” “He struck the moment the emperor had received the second blessing of Holy Dwayna, Shadow Stepping through the void to materialize directly behind Angsiyan’s back. With a roar, Shiro drove both of his blades through the emperor’s heart. " and “The other was in the process of tearing Angsiyan’s soul from his body, consuming it with his raw will, feeding on the emperor’s life force as it drained through the conduit of Shiro’s enchanted swords. " source: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided In short, he took a good gift that was received on an annual basis with no side-effects and spread across the land by the Emperor, and twisted through dark rituals – provided, presumably, by Abaddon (the “dark forces” that “corrupted” Shiro).
3. Key thing, the magic behind the Jade Wind is not corruptive on its own – this is outright proof that it’s not Elder Dragon magic, which is nothing but corruptive on its own. It only became a threat when Shiro Tagachi messed with it.
4. The EN quest Path of Revelation’s cipher actually refers to Arah. It is a land unwaking on distant shores, due to being submerged and quite distanced from the Far Shiverpeaks, and it holds the answers of the Six Gods – about what they’ve studied, about the bloodstones, and so forth – among other things (what Giganticus Lupicus look like, for instance, and how the races survived the last ED rise, how Glint betrayed her master, etc. etc. etc.). before release, Jeff Grubb even hinted that it may refer to Orr.
5. Your presuming Kuunavang is a dragon champion. This is a fallacy.
6. No one “mistook” Glint as a creation for the gods – she lied to everyone about her origins. Difference.
7. Kuunavang doesn’t guard the Harvest Temple. As your own quote shows – she was trapped there.
8. All indication gives that Mordremoth holds ties with plants (source: Crucible of Eternity – Zone Green and Experimental Green Lab are full of plants and plant creatures – with not a single stone entity in sight), so it’s unlikely he’d turn things to stone. If anything, he’d turn things into looking like this or this.
9. Nothing related Kuunavang to stone or plants.

@Ratphink: there’s actually a bit of evidence to point to Kuunavang possibly being a dragon champion. Firstly, in The Movement of the World, Kuunavang and Glint are put on par to each other. Mind you, this is old and may predate the plans to make Glint a dragon champion. Later on, sometime in 2009, Glint was compared to Rotscale.

Secondly, during an interview Ree and Jeff have a slight disagreement in commenting on the nature of non-ED dragons. To transcribe it:

The combination of these two things hint that Kuunavang and Rotscale are dragon champions. However, I suspect Kuunavang is more likely to be related to a seventh unknown Air/Sky/Star Elder Dragon (a seventh ED can be argued in by the fact that the six only comes from Jotun knowledge, so one from Cantha, which is far out of reach of the jotun, would remain unknown – Kuunavang could also have been made an ally by the forgotten, as they too were on Cantha).

Forgotten in Cantha? Where precisely do you see them, as I can’t recall any moment when they were involved in that Continent. (Not being difficult for difficult’s sake, genuinely curious as it would go a long way towards convincing me that Kuun may in fact be a Dragon Champ)

Historically, they were in Cantha. From An Empire Divided: “Surprisingly, although surviving records and artifacts from this period prove that the serpentine Forgotten dwelt in Cantha as well, they appear not to have come into conflict with humans there. My own interpretation of the data indicates that geographic reasons are most likely: the two races did not compete for food or territory before the Forgotten departed the world en masse. "

Hmmm, the way it’s written they could have come into contact with powerful Saltspray Dragons like Kuunavang, however them having lived and abandoned the continant is not evidence towards Kuunavang is a Dragon Champion. Forgotten used to live on mainland Tyria before their self-styled exodus to live away from Human Kingdoms.

I will not argue that Kuunavang isn’t special. She, along with all the Dragons of Cantha, are certainly unique. However that still does not equal “Dragon Champion”. This would be in the same fashion of calling ‘Shiny’ a Dragon Champion (Elder Shiny Dragon worshipped by the Skritt as the legendary Shiny).

I would argue that the interview you’re stating doesn’t really add to much. Simply bringing her into a discussion about Glint and Rotscale means they were looking at the broader picture. Technically speaking every campaign has ‘Dragon’ type enemies from Guild Wars 1. Some of these are still in game (Drakes), but these do not make them Dragon Minions or Champions. I personally expect Kuunavang’s to be a different story than simply being a Champion.

There has been a lot of talk bout the Cantha ‘good’ dragons. It is obvious that dragons play an important role in Canthan society. Maybe, and this is just wild guessing it is indeed a seventh elder dragon wich is worshipped as a god cause it is, though from the same origin, a good elder dragon? With good I mean still magic consuming, but only what is given to him/her freely and and not taking it by force.

There’s no worship of a dragon in Canthan culture – the closest you get is Tahmu, the Celestial Dragon, who was formerly a human empress.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s no worship of a dragon in Canthan culture – the closest you get is Tahmu, the Celestial Dragon, who was formerly a human empress.

Also, remember where the source of inspiration for much of Cantha is from. Dragons are very important there, and they’re not at all like what western minds might think of.

Dragons, in the smaller sense, were very prevalent in Cantha, most likely the source of the title Dragon Empire.

Everyone knows there will be 3 elder dragons on Cantha, a plant one whose champion was Urgoz and minions were The Wardens, some sort of Aquatic one who had the Squid faced Oni minions and Kanaxi as a champion (all of which were deep in the jade sea and were only discovered after the luxons started drilling deep, the luxons were also corrupted mentally as they went down there). And then what ever dragon champion was with Knuvang (yes i know i spelt that wrong), and who for simpleness sakes minions would be the celestial creatures you fight.

2 of those Dragons would at least previously have been friendly (Urgoz’s and Knuvang) because both were friendly to the humans and other races there until shiros corruption. At that point it’s said that Urgoz and the Wardens that HE CONTROLLED became angry and began attacking outsiders in his forest, and then Knuvang became all kitten y and evil.

You know, there are more beings in this world than just Elder Dragons. There are gods, spirits of the wild, demons of the mists, and so on. It’s not to hard to believe that Urgoz may have been much like a spirit of the wild, only it was the spirit of a forest. Kanaxai could have been a demon from a good many realms without having to be the minion of a sea dragon. I mean think about it, the champion of a sea dragon (DSD?) would be more prone to have fins and a tail over arms and legs right? And Kuunavang? Well I just personally hope that they don’t cop out and just say that all dragons on Tyria were somehow related to the ED’s. I personally think it would be refreshing to see that she’s related to something else.

What if Emperor Angsiyan was in fact a champion of an elder dragon himself. When shiro slew him he somehow absorbed some of his power. Once shiro died, the power had no where to go and exploded creating the jade wind.

Deified.7520:

What if Emperor Angsiyan was in fact a champion of an elder dragon himself. When shiro slew him he somehow absorbed some of his power. Once shiro died, the power had no where to go and exploded creating the jade wind.

If they did that? I will flip tables. Because there’s stapling on things which are new and there’s applying retcons to history which make no sense in order to make something work.

Dragon champions don’t asplode in power.

Angsiyan had no physical abnormalities, and had done the ritual for years – as has every other emperor for as long as this ceremony existed (we don’t know how long it’s been going on, but it didn’t stop with Angsiyan).

Beyond it being a poorly done retcon for a rather silly and not-making-sense scenario (again, nothing relates Mordremoth to stone), it just doesn’t make sense. It’s worse than saying humanity first appeared on the world in Orr, but they existed in Cantha before humanity knew of or traveled to continental Tyria on their boats. Or how the charr managed to sweep through the kingdom of Orr with little resistance despite the entire kingdom being full of potent magic users. Or how the Cataclysm, casted from Khilbron’s Tower which is on the eastern edge of Orr sunk all of Orr but had no effect on the Shiverpeaks.

Also, making Kanaxai or Urgoz into dragon champions don’t make sense. Kanaxai is a demon – albeit of unknown origins – while Urgoz is a forest spirit. Urgoz is more related to the Spirits of the Wild than to Elder Dragons. And it was the Jade Wind which turned Urgoz hostile – not because it effected him, but because he became so enraged at the forest turning to stone that he went mad (similar to how the Minotaur Spirit was going berserk when the Sons of Svanir were hunting down minotaurs in large numbers during the Protect the Spirits storyline).

Only Kuunavang has a chance of being related to the Elder Dragons – though like Narcemus, I’d prefer they didn’t go that route, but based on a past interview, I think they’re intending to.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Only Kuunavang has a chance of being related to the Elder Dragons – though like Narcemus, I’d prefer they didn’t go that route, but based on a past interview, I think they’re intending to.

If they do, I’d rather it be her getting corrupted into one rather than always having a connection.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Or how the Cataclysm, casted from Khilbron’s Tower which is on the eastern edge of Orr sunk all of Orr but had no effect on the Shiverpeaks.

I thought he found the scrolls beneath Arah? Didn’t he go to the King as the Charr were marching on the city and go below to find the scrolls and read the words, destroying the peninsula? It just doesn’t make sense to me that he found the scrolls, left the city (with charr marching on the gates), and went back to his tower. It makes more sense that he would do it right then and there.

Narcemus.1348:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Or how the Cataclysm, casted from Khilbron’s Tower which is on the eastern edge of Orr sunk all of Orr but had no effect on the Shiverpeaks.

I thought he found the scrolls beneath Arah? Didn’t he go to the King as the Charr were marching on the city and go below to find the scrolls and read the words, destroying the peninsula? It just doesn’t make sense to me that he found the scrolls, left the city (with charr marching on the gates), and went back to his tower. It makes more sense that he would do it right then and there.

This, it’s said time and time again he went below Arah, where the scrolls were, and read them to sink Orr.

And idk why Kanaxi has no possibility to be a minion… It’s not like the humans haven’t been wrong before.

He found them from beneath Arah, but cast them from his tower. I don’t think it was said he went to the king.

“We discovered that the Vizier had been corrupted by the God of Secrets! We found the forbidden books in his quarters!”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Faded_Memory

“In panic, Vizier Khilbron searched forbidden texts and discovered a scroll that had been hidden away by the Six Gods. He stole it from Arah, taking it to his tower, and there, unleashed its might upon the land.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls

And your final sentence is my exact point behind it – though initially brought to me by Thalador (who also says it makes no sense for how he got there or that the charr would leave Khilbron alone in his tower – he teleports, nuff said on that).

I always expected a report of the final days of Orr are highly biased considering there are only a few possible living sources. And we know Vizier Khilbron isn’t entirely 100% trustworthy.

The sequence of events, therefore, could be not as clean as this. The city might have still had its gates being battered down before the Vizier got into his tower. Once there, he just needed time to successfully cast the spell.

. . . and hopefully it was shorter timed than Rurik’s “Claim Resource” skill in the third Prophecies mission :P

And also, remember Abaddon’s corruption of the Vizier and Shiro both took the same tactic – introduce despair and doubt then offer a way out. Shiro is more blatant since we see the fortune teller guiding him to the position needed and telling him “you are going to die, the Emperor will kill you . . . unless you kill him first”. And when Shiro’s doubt had run its course . . . he doomed himself.

I could see a similar thing to the Vizier. Abaddon’s influence offering him great secrets of magic, and then when the charr came, said “there is one spell which might save Orr . . .” but neglecting to say anything about what it would do.

Anyway as I said, all this is conjecture since almost every account we could receive from the last days of Orr are bound to have bias or incomplete information.

Faded Memory weren’t from living sources, but souls of Orrians – those not under anyone’s control. And there they say that the forbidden scrolls were found in his tower.

And, I’m sorry, but Khilbron was a worshiper of Abaddon before he caused the Cataclysm and nothing says the same tactic was used. The only trickery is that Razakiel was the one who told Khilbron about the spell that could save Orr – but this wasn’t an attempt to corrupt/convert Khilbron. That had already happened. It was just Abaddon’s plot to destroy Orr by tricking his follower.

Shiro, on the other hand, wasn’t a follower of Abaddon until post-death (at least, as far as we know – An Empire Divided tells us that he used dark rituals of a forbidden source, and its hinted upon in a Nightfall quest to be truth though not clearly implied or confirmed).

So no, it’s not all conjecture.

Just a little note here: Mordemoth IS related to stone because that is the exact attack Subject Alpha uses.

There’s quite a difference between an attack that makes spikes out of dirt and rocks, and a magical event that turns flesh, bone, plant, and water into stone.