Guild Wars 2

If Mordremoth is said to reign over the mind, then what happens with Jormag who possesses the ability to control minds as well? What is his/her (I like to think of Jormag as female) second sphere?

Jormag doesn’t control minds. He tempts them with promises of power.

I don’t think we’ll find out his second aspect until later, but Konig, if I remember right, did come up with a good theory about it possibly being Spirit/Soul.

Yeah, my theory is that Jormag is Ice and Soul, Kralkatorrik is Crystal and Sky, and that we can’t really guess at Primordus’ second or either of the DSD’s spheres (I do not believe water to be one).

Ice, Crystal, and Fire is obvious for them, as for each dragon the first sphere seems to be “how corruption takes form”. For the DSD, it’s corruption has been hinted to take the form of tentacled monsters, twisting water to make them. So from that the conclusion wouldn’t be ‘Water’ but ‘Tentacle’ which doesn’t match up. Until we see a DSD minion, or hear a nickname like Elder Ice Dragon, it’s first sphere is unknown.

The second sphere for Mordremoth is in how it corrupts, though it’s unknown how exactly Shadows tie into Zhaitan. But going off of “how it corrupts” for the second sphere, we get air/sky from Kralkatorrik, as it corrupts with breath and lightning. This fits very well as Glint, aside from crystals, is known for air/sky via the Zephyrite crystals which are grown from Glint’s own crystals, and empowered with her magic. Furthermore, the path of Kralkatorrik’s corruption is covered with twisted air (just look at the air of the dragonbrand’s border) and a perpetual thunderstorm. Kralkatorrike evn becomes a sandstorm – a mixture of tiny crystals and wind.

So if we look at Jormag, he does a lot of telepathy, but he doesn’t forcefully corrupt via the mind. He does this to get willing converts (though sometimes through trickery) – only the Sons of Svanir seem to forcefully corrupt in Jormag’s name. So to me this crosses him off as a dragon of mind and more simply giving him a tough if mesme-like powers. No different than Mordremoth having some shadows in his powers (Smothering Shadows anyone).

In one of the personal stories, Eir states that Jormag corrupts not only body but soul as well. While this might just be metaphorical, I think it’s literal. And not subjective. Reason being I’d that no other Elder Dragon corrupts souls. In fact, aside from trapping them, like Zhaitan does, only Jormag interacts with souls at all. And what has been his largest prey since waking? Spirits of the Wild. Further, he is the only dragon at all interested in the Mists. First Svanir had a bunch of soul-named skills in GW1, including a skill called “Retreat to the Spirit Realm”. Little known fact is that norn and canthans call the Mists the Spirit Realm on occasion. Then we see Jormag, through the Sons of Svanir, attacking havrouns. We see him targetting kodan Voices in Frostgorge, and there is even a “Frozen Portal” from Jormag which shares models with portals to the Mists.

There is a lot of connection between Jormag and the Mists and Souls. More than ing other elder dragon. Thus is why I believe his second sphere is Soul/Spirit.

Mordremoth didn’t control minds (no more than other dragons). He corrupted through minds, I believe is the idea.

I agree it’s not well shown at all. In all honesty, neither is shadow for Zhaitan and both cases feel like the second sphere is irrelevant and unnecessary. But I also feel the same way about sylvari being dragon minions – that plot line held no hook in Heart of Thorns, no more than “sylvari being plants are vulnerable to Mordremoth’s corruption” would have.

One of the DSD’s spheres could be the concept of fear. Everyone who encounters it’s minions describes them as “horrors”, and theres quite a lot of fear surrounding the open oceans, due to the DSD and Zhaitan’s control over the seas around Tyria.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it has the ability to read the mind of who ever its fighting, to create a minion based on their greatest fear, considering so far, everybody who claims to have met one of these horrors has simply run away from it.

Could produce an interesting narrative, because currently, all the characters in GW2 are simply “Rwar, I am fearless soldier. Look at me hunt dragons without second thought.”, so it’d be fun to see Destiny’s Edge and co. reduced to blubbering wrecks by encountering some apparition of their worst fear.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mordremoth didn’t control minds (no more than other dragons). He corrupted through minds, I believe is the idea.

I agree it’s not well shown at all. In all honesty, neither is shadow for Zhaitan and both cases feel like the second sphere is irrelevant and unnecessary. But I also feel the same way about sylvari being dragon minions – that plot line held no hook in Heart of Thorns, no more than “sylvari being plants are vulnerable to Mordremoth’s corruption” would have.

He doesn’t corrupt, he establish control over his minions.

We can see all the non Sylvari were only put into blight to make clones.

Erukk.1408:

Jormag doesn’t control minds. He tempts them with promises of power.

I don’t think we’ll find out his second aspect until later, but Konig, if I remember right, did come up with a good theory about it possibly being Spirit/Soul.

Jormag does control minds, he both can tempet others with power and turn others by force as well. Even animals like fish and wolf, who shouldn’t be interested with power, can be turned into Icebrood.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Jormag does control minds, he both can tempet others with power and turn others by force as well. Even animals like fish and wolf, who shouldn’t be interested with power, can be turned into Icebrood.

We’ve seen SoS forcefully corrupt others, but we haven’t, to the best of my knowledge, seen Jormag do so yet. Do you have any examples you can link?

And I wouldn’t consider corrupted fish and wolves as an example of mind control. It’s either forceful like SoS corrupting the wolves in Hoelbrak or more of a latent form of corruption indigenous wildlife slowly succumbs to when the surrounding environment is corrupted. Like Zhaitan’s Risen fish and grub.

Erukk.1408:

We’ve seen SoS forcefully corrupt others, but we haven’t, to the best of my knowledge, seen Jormag do so yet. Do you have any examples you can link?

And I wouldn’t consider corrupted fish and wolves as an example of mind control. It’s either forceful like SoS corrupting the wolves in Hoelbrak or more of a latent form of corruption indigenous wildlife slowly succumbs to when the surrounding environment is corrupted. Like Zhaitan’s Risen fish and grub.

Because Jormag hasn’t make real appearance in the game yet. The SoS was simply channeling its power to corrupt others, as well as its champions like the Dragonspawn. You are saying Jormag couldn’t corrupt others’ mind, while most of its champion and worshipers have the ability and was spreeing it like crazy?

Icebrood don’t forcefully corrupt or turn others. The closest we see of this is the Dragonspawn using mental powers to trick Zojja and Snaff into wanting to join them, but even that hold was easily broken when they realized what was happening.

If the Dragonspawn wanted to forcefully corrupt them, it probably would have at that second it got into their minds rather than effectively hypnotizing them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Icebrood don’t forcefully corrupt or turn others. The closest we see of this is the Dragonspawn using mental powers to trick Zojja and Snaff into wanting to join them, but even that hold was easily broken when they realized what was happening.

If the Dragonspawn wanted to forcefully corrupt them, it probably would have at that second it got into their minds rather than effectively hypnotizing them.

They do it all the way, quggans quests showed how did they do it, as well as the ritual the 3 shamans perform. Most of the Icebrood clearly were turned forcefully.

They change the way how others think, that means they are hypnotizing.

Shiren.9532:

Are we shown a single non-sylvari that was corrupted through its mind? Only sylvari had Mordremoth in their heads iirc. The other two examples I can recall were Zojja and Logan who were never corrupted, just cloned like the hylek mobs. It’s strange how the expansion took Mordremoth’s minions from being entirely plant-like mimics of creatures to the Mordrem frogs which look like corrupted frogs, not plant clones of frogs.

Is it possible we can scrap the mind as Mordremoth’s sphere and dismiss it as Ella’s misinterpretation of Mordremoth’s naivety (at the time) about the true nature of sylvari? Mordremoth’s sphere wasn’t the mind, it was the Dream? When Ella said it, most NPCs didn’t know sylvari were minions, so to her it might simply be a coincidence that only Aerin and Scarlet had their minds warped.

As far as Jormag goes, I suspect it is spirit or the Mists or something in that area. When Svanir was corrupted, so was Jora – to some extent. She was unable to become the bear – unable to call on and embrace the power of the bear spirit (presumably all spirits). She was exposed to Drakkar’s corruption, just not as badly as Svanir.

I assume norn abilities to become the animals is in some way spiritual, so perhaps some kind of spiritual corruption was what prevented Jora from becoming bear. It also fits the theme of an Elder Dragon being conveniently related to the race geographically near it (sylvari, Mordremoth and the Dream, norn, Jormad and spirit) and it fits into how Jormag was able to destroy Owl’s spirit.

I think others have mentioned the early norn quest where you fight Son’s of Svanir into the Mists to save a Bear shaman or something along those lines.

Honestly I’d be perfectly fine if ED’s didn’t have two neatly defined spheres. What does it add? It seems like a concept that came about to create a conclusion for the Mordremoth arc (referenced out of nowhere in Season 2 while they wrote the expansion plot, never explored again and conveniently brought back during the finale) and it’s doesn’t retroactively fit well into the Zhaitan arc. Why restrict future dragon’s by a sphere of influence rule?

I don’t think Mordremoth was “corrupting” the Sylvari, it was reestablish control. Remember what Faolain said in the end? “There is no Caithe, no Faolain, only Mordremoth.” Those Sylvari AKA Mordrem wasn’t suppose to have their own mind, they should have been just the carriers of Mordremoth’ will like hive mind structure.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Icebrood don’t forcefully corrupt or turn others. The closest we see of this is the Dragonspawn using mental powers to trick Zojja and Snaff into wanting to join them, but even that hold was easily broken when they realized what was happening.

If the Dragonspawn wanted to forcefully corrupt them, it probably would have at that second it got into their minds rather than effectively hypnotizing them.

They do it all the way, quggans quests showed how did they do it, as well as the ritual the 3 shamans perform. Most of the Icebrood clearly were turned forcefully.

They change the way how others think, that means they are hypnotizing.

The three shamans are Sons of Svanir… And I’ve explicitly stated that the Sons of Svanir – who are not icebrood – do in fact channel Jormag’s corruptive magic into others and forcibly corrupt them. This is seen dozens upon dozens of times.

But do you see icebrood – not Sons of Svanir – forcibly corrupting others? Is there not a single Son of Svanir in the quaggan storyline (because I’m pretty sure there is, just like with the grawl)?

And “changing the way how others think” is a pure case of corruption. The Sons of Svanir forcibly corrupt, and the victims are mentally changed as well as physically.

Shiren.9532:

Are we shown a single non-sylvari that was corrupted through its mind? Only sylvari had Mordremoth in their heads iirc.

Are we shown a single non-plant that was corrupted by Mordremoth (and not simply cloned)?

No.

This is a bit of an issue with the combination of being plants and mind. He corrupts via the mind… but he only corrupts plants.

Without us seeing a bunch of druids of old or the wardens from Cantha around, the only talking plants are sylvari.

So then we fall under the question of: Do sylvari hear them because they’re dragon minions (albeit cleansed of control) or because they’re plants?

The only way to answer this is to find another freed dragon minion. Sadly, Glint is dead, the Risen Chicken from Arah doesn’t talk, and Gleam is MIA. Even if Glint was around, she was a natural telepathy for all beings, so if she heard Kralkatorrik’s thoughts (which she did), then we can’t tell if this is because of her natural telapthy or because of the dragon-champion mental connection. So we cannot answer this until either the egg hatches or we meet Gleam. And if they don’t hear Kralkatorrik’s thoughts then we can thus have a state to argue that the sylvari heard Mordremoth not due to being dragon minions that got “purified” somehow (a question still not answered by HoT – one of THE most important ones at that) but because they’re plants.

Shiren.9532:

Is it possible we can scrap the mind as Mordremoth’s sphere and dismiss it as Ella’s misinterpretation of Mordremoth’s naivety (at the time) about the true nature of sylvari? Mordremoth’s sphere wasn’t the mind, it was the Dream? When Ella said it, most NPCs didn’t know sylvari were minions, so to her it might simply be a coincidence that only Aerin and Scarlet had their minds warped.

Ella’s information comes from the Scroll of the True Gods, which predate sylvari by over a thousand years.

The Dream couldn’t be Mordremoth’s sphere because while Mordremoth attacked through it, it was actually a defense against him/other dragons (as was the Nightmare). And we know of at least one non-sylvari who has a connection to it like the Pale Tree does (the White Stag).

Slowpokeking.8720:

I don’t think Mordremoth was “corrupting” the Sylvari, it was reestablish control. Remember what Faolain said in the end? “There is no Caithe, no Faolain, only Mordremoth.” Those Sylvari AKA Mordrem wasn’t suppose to have their own mind, they should have been just the carriers of Mordremoth’ will like hive mind structure.

You can’t really take a dragon minion’s word at face value. They’re all very obviously mentally twisted.

The fact is that sylvari do have their own mind. They do have free will. Dragon minions do not. So they were at some point “purified” in some unknown means. This is a question that should have been answered in HoT, but wasn’t. So I would argue that Mordremoth was, in fact, corrupting them. Though the Pale Tree might have been once a corrupted seed, the sylvari were never corrupted by Mordremoth or under his control. There was no original mindless sylvari or hive mind sylvari.

You cannot “regain” what you never “gained” in the past.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The three shamans are Sons of Svanir… And I’ve explicitly stated that the Sons of Svanir – who are not icebrood – do in fact channel Jormag’s corruptive magic into others and forcibly corrupt them. This is seen dozens upon dozens of times.

But do you see icebrood – not Sons of Svanir – forcibly corrupting others? Is there not a single Son of Svanir in the quaggan storyline (because I’m pretty sure there is, just like with the grawl)?

And “changing the way how others think” is a pure case of corruption. The Sons of Svanir forcibly corrupt, and the victims are mentally changed as well as physically.

Yes, the quaggan, the voice in HoW, that Hunter of Jormag was Icebrood.

The fact is that sylvari do have their own mind. They do have free will. Dragon minions do not. So they were at some point “purified” in some unknown means. This is a question that should have been answered in HoT, but wasn’t. So I would argue that Mordremoth was, in fact, corrupting them. Though the Pale Tree might have been once a corrupted seed, the sylvari were never corrupted by Mordremoth or under his control. There was no original mindless sylvari or hive mind sylvari.

You cannot “regain” what you never “gained” in the past.

And we should believe you?

Because the dragon lost control of them and they were reshaped by the Pale Tree. Once the dragon reestablished control, they work like the Destroyers. From the trailer we can see the dragon DIRECTLY create Modrem Guards, it doesn’t corrupt at all. It doesn’t corrupt other beings as well, only make clones of them.

The Hunter of Jormag was a Son of Svanir who was close to corruption. He became an icebrood in full when we fought him – after his “reward” for giving ‘Jormag the Voice.’

Should you believe me? It’s pure logic. The sylvari were not born mordrem and later turned, they were born sylvari.

This is why the turned sylvari are no longer called sylvari, they are called sylvari. They are not the same thing.

And yes, we see the dragon directly create Mordrem Guards – but not sylvari. And this creation of a Mordrem Guard is the exact method of creating clones of animals.

Isn’t Mordremoth also forcibly turning sylvari to his side as well? Just like most Icebrood were turned by force?

If I remember correctly someone in the story (Canach?) said that Mordremoth makes you think that his voices in your head are actually your own thoughts, and that leads you to giving in and listening only to him.

We can clearly see that while doing the achievement in Rata Novus to talk to the wounded Mordrem guard. Who clearly says that the voice is quieter here. And for a few seconds you talk to him normally, talking to the sylvari that he once was.

So if I face the DSD it will manifest a clown in a diving bell?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Hunter of Jormag was a Son of Svanir who was close to corruption. He became an icebrood in full when we fought him – after his “reward” for giving ‘Jormag the Voice.’

Should you believe me? It’s pure logic. The sylvari were not born mordrem and later turned, they were born sylvari.

This is why the turned sylvari are no longer called sylvari, they are called sylvari. They are not the same thing.

And yes, we see the dragon directly create Mordrem Guards – but not sylvari. And this creation of a Mordrem Guard is the exact method of creating clones of animals.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/083752a81f1cf85162bde2e62691fbb6/tumblr_nw5f0gawC91tj97pzo1_540.gif

Obviously that he was Icebrood while performing the ritual.

The Sylvari were supposed to born as Mordrem, they were reshaped only because of the Pale Tree. The dragon just regained control and turned them back to what they were supposed to be, that’s a lot different than “corrupt” the Sylvari.

Urosh Uchiha.9732:

Isn’t Mordremoth also forcibly turning sylvari to his side as well? Just like most Icebrood were turned by force?

If I remember correctly someone in the story (Canach?) said that Mordremoth makes you think that his voices in your head are actually your own thoughts, and that leads you to giving in and listening only to him.

We can clearly see that while doing the achievement in Rata Novus to talk to the wounded Mordrem guard. Who clearly says that the voice is quieter here. And for a few seconds you talk to him normally, talking to the sylvari that he once was.

Do we know why Mordys Vioce was quieter near Rata Novus? Our Sylvari Char also commented that his Call is quiet near Rata Novus. What is causing this? Something in this City that is weakening the Link between Minion and Dragon?

Walhalla.5473:

Urosh Uchiha.9732:

Isn’t Mordremoth also forcibly turning sylvari to his side as well? Just like most Icebrood were turned by force?

If I remember correctly someone in the story (Canach?) said that Mordremoth makes you think that his voices in your head are actually your own thoughts, and that leads you to giving in and listening only to him.

We can clearly see that while doing the achievement in Rata Novus to talk to the wounded Mordrem guard. Who clearly says that the voice is quieter here. And for a few seconds you talk to him normally, talking to the sylvari that he once was.

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Canach also described it as being a big Fist that is squeezing him Mentally. Mordy actually tries to force Sylvari to turn. Our Sylvari Char was very close to turning. On one Point he/she lost consciousness for a short Time only to wake up and having a Mordrem in front giving the PC Orders where our Char asks why he/she should obey but in a Tone that was more curious instead of showing resistance.

And at the last Mission, our Sylvari Char was just one Step from becoming a Slave. The Game also showed this by flagging Mordy as Ally and our two companions as Neutral Mobs ( yellow Tagged )

Do we know why Mordys Vioce was quieter near Rata Novus? Our Sylvari Char also commented that his Call is quiet near Rata Novus. What is causing this? Something in this City that is weakening the Link between Minion and Dragon?

Mordremoth could control the Sylvari because they came from it, they all share a link with it since they were born. It just resume the broken control when they got close, that’s not corruption. Nor do we see Mordremoth mind corrupt anything other than its creation.

Wynne: We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.
Caithe: You’re lying!
Wynne: I saw it in my Dream. And if Faolain knew, she wouldn’t keep it a secret.

Which part? Did I murder one of my fellow firstborn? Do we sylvari come from an Elder Dragon? (sigh) Yes…it’s all true.

It’s crystal clear I mean, Mordremoth could turn the Sylvari only because they were created by it. They were supposed to be Mordrem from the beginning, just that the dragon was sleeping.

I wouldn’t be so fast to argue that Mordremoth could turn sylvari only because they were created by a creature created by it. In Dry Top we see a vine bridge turn into a mordrem vine before disappearing at the beginning of the clearing mordrem event. So it’s obvious that Mordremoth can corrupt plants as well as grow them.