Guild Wars 2

Hi everyone,

Sorry if this was discussed before, but if other Dragons absorb the defeated dragon’s powers; wouldn’t this mean that other dragons would be able to control the sylvari characters?

No. because Mordremoth Created the Sylvari, they are his minions, the magic isn’t what controlled them it was that fact he created them.

as BF said, one dragon minion cannot corrupt another dragon’s minions.
This was already true because even before mordremoth awoke we knew that sylvari were immune to Zhaitan’s ressurections.

What CAN happen is that now Jormag and Primordus can IMITATE mordrem creatures

Amaimon.7823:

as BF said, one dragon minion cannot corrupt another dragon’s minions.
This was already true because even before mordremoth awoke we knew that sylvari were immune to Zhaitan’s ressurections.

What CAN happen is that now Jormag and Primordus can IMITATE mordrem creatures

TY!
I have a lot of questions, but I do hope this is as you say.

Once again, ty both.

There’s quite a bit more to it than that.

What Mordremoth did to the sylvari was different to regular dragon corruption.

Regular dragon corruption into a minion essentially has the effect of inserting something like the Asimovian Laws of Robotics into the new minion’s mind. A minion shall serve and worship the dragon. A minion shall corrupt or destroy those who aren’t minions of the dragon, unless this conflicts with the first law. A minion shall claim magic for the dragon, unless this conflicts with the first or second law. And so on. These laws hold regardless of whether the minion is currently being actively controlled by the dragon or a champion… or even whether the dragon is still alive (see: Arah explorable).

Sylvari are immune to this form of corruption. I think the reason for this is more complex than “because they already belong to Mordremoth”, but I’m going to put that particular discussion aside for now.

What Mordremoth did was more along the lines of flooding the target’s thoughts until the target couldn’t distinguish Mordremoth’s will from their own. Depending on a number of factors including the strength of will of the sylvari in question, this could be anything from a minor annoyance (Occam) to confusion but the target retains their primary identity and goals (Caithe) to a ‘prisoner in your own mind’ effect that can be removed if the target is isolated from Mordremoth’s broadcast (the Mordrem Guard in Rata Novus) to, theoretically, total brainwashing (any Mordrem Guard that remain so after Mordremoth’s death).

This is something that would probably work on any race if there was a sufficient difference between the strength of will of the mind-controller and the victim, as long as the mind-controller has an ability to send thoughts. Glint could possibly have attempted it against Destiny’s Edge, for instance, or Jennah could do so through the mindlink with Logan (some have accused her of actually doing so). We see Nightmare Court mind-controlling skritt, although we don’t know the exact mechanism there.

Mordremoth, however, does have the advantage of having a kind of “back door” into sylvari minds. Coupled with having more raw power than even Glint, this allowed him to mind-control on a massive scale.

So, could this be repeated? Theoretically… probably. It depends in part on whether Mordremoth’s ‘back door’ came about because he was their creator (however many times removed) or whether anyone with the combination of Mind and Plant could access it. Even in the latter case, though, I don’t think it’s likely in the foreseeable future that any one entity will have the degree of dominion over those domains that Mordremoth had, so I think it’s unlikely that we’ll see it happen on such a large scale. We may, however, see the sylvari’s no longer being completely immune to influence from the other dragons: they may never be as vulnerable as they were to Mordremoth, but it’s possible that other dragons will pick up enough Mind and Plant to be able to influence them on a smaller scale, possibly to the point at which sylvari fighting the dragons have a similar degree of vulnerability to the vulnerability of other races to conventional corruption.

Amaimon.7823:

as BF said, one dragon minion cannot corrupt another dragon’s minions.

Says nothing ever.

Amaimon.7823:

This was already true because even before mordremoth awoke we knew that sylvari were immune to Zhaitan’s ressurections.

Which is outright stated during HoT promotions to be the Pale Tree’s doing, not because of the sylvari’s origins.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Amaimon.7823:

as BF said, one dragon minion cannot corrupt another dragon’s minions.

Says nothing ever.

Amaimon.7823:

This was already true because even before mordremoth awoke we knew that sylvari were immune to Zhaitan’s ressurections.

Which is outright stated during HoT promotions to be the Pale Tree’s doing, not because of the sylvari’s origins.

It’s a retconned conversation about sylvari. During PS they already mention that sylvari are immune, but at the time they’re not ‘dragon minions’ yet, so people just assumed they were immune because they were plants.

The immunity is not just simply ‘because of the pale tree’.
It’s the combined effort of Ventari and the Dream, and not even the Pale tree controls the Dream, she just acts as its vessel.

And regardless of how immune dragon minions are to each other, there are no documented cases one dragon corrupting another, and some flimsy conversations of NPCs mentioning dragon minion crosslinked immunities.

I’m not sure exactly how true the immunity of dragon minions is, but so far the entire community has accepted it as a propable theory that dragon minions can’t be corrupted by other elder dragons.

It’s just like gravity, since it’s not yet fully understood, it’s a theory and not a law. But since no contradictory evidence exists it doesn’t matter if it’s a theory or a law, it’s an observable constant.

“While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold. Many sylvari believe that this is because they were born to battle the dragons, blessed with a certain protection against their most horrible powers. Some non-sylvari scholars state instead that the sylvari’s strange biology foils the corruption of the dragons. A few clever souls state that sylvari just taste bad to dragons. No one knows for certain which is the truth.”

I found this on the promo teksts of the game when it was first released. If the sylvari proved that in their kind there is no other-dragon corruption, and other dragon minions also showed no signs of being corrupted by other elder dragons I see no reason to deny a plausible theory

Okay. Let’s have this discussion, then.

The idea that dragon minions couldn’t be corrupted by the energy of other dragons was debunked on release with Crucible of Eternity, where the Inquest do just that. People have claimed that this is because this was done in a lab and not under some so-called ‘natural conditions’, but this argument has two flaws:

First, anything done in a lab is a replication of natural conditions. Possibly natural conditions that are highly improbable to occur spontaneously under normal conditions, but nevertheless, “the lab” is not some pocket universe where the laws of magic and physics are different and things can be done that would be impossible outside the lab.

Second, this is essentially claiming that the Inquest know how to manipulate dragon energies in ways that the dragons themselves can’t. I find this improbable.

When specifically talking about sylvari, there’s the additional hole in the argument that while we see Inquest creations which involve corrupting a minion of one dragon with the energies of another, we never see the Inquest successfully corrupt a sylvari. I consider it highly unlikely that they’ve never tried (the Inquest are very interested in experimenting on sylvari, and experimenting on their corruption immunity would be close to the top of their list), and it would be a curious choice on ArenaNet’s part for them to have tried and succeeded but for us to have never heard of it. With this evidence, it seems that, whether dragons can corrupt each other’s minions or not, there is something about the sylvari that makes them more resistant to corruption.

As to what this could be… the way the sylvari have interacted with Mordremoth really does seem to indicate that it’s similar to Glint and Kralkatorrik. After the ritual, Glint’s free will allowed her to still choose to serve Kralkatorrik, and she did for a time before deciding to switch sides. After doing so, she maintained a link to Kralkatorrik, which she used to keep tabs on Kralkatorrik’s status.

Similarly, the sylvari are immune to corruption per se, but still had a mental link to Mordremoth, which Mordremoth was able to influence them… basically through using the link to brainwash them. As noted above, this is a technique that would probably work on the weaker-willed members of every race, Mordremoth just had a pre-existing mental connection to sylvari that he exploited.

So why don’t we see dragons corrupting each other’s minions in the wider world?

There are two possible answers to this. One is that they simply don’t want to start open conflicts with each other. Their territories rarely overlap, and attempting to steal the minion of another dragon would be an aggressive action that may lead to a war between the two dragons, and it would make sense that they would consider the risks of such a war to outweigh the potential gains.

The other is that it’s actually bad for them to do so. Having corruption from both dragons might mean that the minion’s loyalties become unstable, no longer properly fixed to either dragon. For the Inquest, this is at least no worse than the alternative, and may actually make it easier for them to mind-control the resulting creation themselves, so this is not a problem. For the dragons, though, it probably is much more convenient for them to be able to just assume that the programming will keep their minions loyal than have to worry about maintaining control over a minion whose loyalty is split in two or more directions.

Amaimon.7823:

It’s a retconned conversation about sylvari. During PS they already mention that sylvari are immune, but at the time they’re not ‘dragon minions’ yet, so people just assumed they were immune because they were plants.

Immunity because of plants didn’t made sense even back in 2012 because there were corrupted plants in the open world.

Amaimon.7823:

The immunity is not just simply ‘because of the pale tree’.
It’s the combined effort of Ventari and the Dream, and not even the Pale tree controls the Dream, she just acts as its vessel.

Sry but Ventari has nothing to do with the Sylvari’s immunity against dragon corruption. Like drax said, Dragon Corruption also involves imprinting the individuals mind with something similar to the Asimovian Laws of Robotics, a Tablet with a few words is not gonna change that. For the Tablet to have any influence over dragon minions, these laws must be purged from the minions mind otherwise the minion will still follow these laws.
Considering the dream, we still don’t know where the dream comes from, but we know that the dream is not unique to Sylvari and not every Sylvari is connected to it. ( Malyck )
So what is causing the immunity or to be more precice what has caused the Pale Tree to be free from Mordremoth? Its not the Dream since there is a Sylvari from another tree who isn’t a mordrem and its not the Tablet since the words on it can’t get rid off the mental corruption.

Also dragon minions aren’t really immune to further corruption by other Dragons which is shown by the Crucible of Eternity where the Inquest did this somehow, so its possible but well it requires some extra work it seems ( and well they even showed that you can get corrupted without being enslaved by the dragons )
Its likely that while possible its too much work for the dragons to be worth it, or well they wouldn’t gain control of the minion then, like for example Jormag would corrupt a branded but the new icebrood branded would still be under Kralkatorriks control

Walhalla.5473:

( and well they even showed that you can get corrupted without being enslaved by the dragons )

I think it’s more accurate to say that the Inquest found a way to control the minions – the minons the Inquest control are still enslaved, they just have a different controller. The multi-corrupted creatures in CoE seem to be a bit unstable in their control, while those in the mursaat path of Arah seem a bit more firmly under Inquest control.

How the Inquest are doing this is unclear. It’s possible that the Inquest are able to essentially fool the minion into thinking that their controller is a higher-ranking minion: this might explain why the Dominated Risen are more firmly controlled than Subject Alpha, although this could be due to a number of other factors, including the technique being more refined by the time we get to Arah. Or they may simply have developed a form of mind control strong enough to overcome the corruption programming. Either way, the Inquest isn’t granting anything free will, they’re just exchanging one yoke for another.

There is, however (and in hindsight this might be what you were actually referring to) indication that some physical corruption is possible without the mental corruption kicking in. We also see this with the Sons of Svanir. However, there is evidence that this level of corruption still opens up the victim to mental influence if not full reprogramming (see, for instance, Rojan the Penitent as one possible example, and Kellach as another).

I was talking about Kudu with the one sentence, who got himself corrupted in the end of COE Story but wasn’t on a " Vote for Kralkatorrik or die" trip or looked like he was brainwashed. he was still Kudu.

The reason ventari is part of the immunity is because if you live the lifestyle of his tablet, you can filter out mordremoths thoughts from your own. In turn, the nightmare lifestyle has a similar effect.

The reason the CoE experiment is not considered valid is because of the lab conditions. Now that in itself isnt argument but saying lab conditions are sped up replications of natural conditions simply isnt right. In a lab you CAN do things that dont occur naturally because certain conditions arent met in nature. The reason we cant count the inquests experiment as a valid argument is because we dont know how he made a creature with multidragon energies. So its still entirely possible it was made under conditions that dont occur in nature.

Simply put, unnatural lab conditions performed by asuras are no proof that the same can happen by dragons in nature. Different creatures, different conditions, different intentions.

I never said it was a fact that dragon minions cant e corrupted by others, but while theres circumstantial evidence supporting this THEORY all evidence that disproves it is made under conditions dont occur where the dragons are.

IF dragons can corrupt other minions they either dont want to or dont have the natural capacity to do so, maybe minions die if they get controlled by two dragons or they simply follow the leader with the strongest will which would inately be their creator.

Its an observable theory and assuming dragon minions can be corrupted by other dragons means nothing if it doesnt occur in natural conditions

.

“Second, this is essentially claiming that the Inquest know how to manipulate dragon energies in ways that the dragons themselves can’t. I find this improbable.”

To answer this: its not impropable at all. Because maybe the dragns can but simply dont do it because the effort of corrupting one enemy minion can be offset by simply creating 10 of your own.

Jhoul.6923

[…] if other Dragons absorb the defeated dragon’s powers; wouldn’t this mean that other dragons would be able to control the sylvari characters?

Mordremoth was able to subjugate and communicate with the sylvari not because of a draconic power, but because of its inherent connection with the Dream of Dreams—this capability was not transmitted to the other Dragons because it was a natural characteristic of Mordremoth itself, one that (supposedly) existed priorly to it becoming an Elder Dragon.

It’s important to remember that sylvari are not dragon minions themselves, they become such only when turned into actual Mordrem. While other Elder Dragons could in theory corrupt the sylvari then, they ultimately can’t do it because—in the end—they aren’t able to access their minds, which is in on itself a fundamental step in the corruption process.


Regarding the ongoing discussion about the overlapping corruption, my take is that an Elder Dragon cannot corrupt those already turned by other Elder Dragons simply because the minions in question were already subjugated by one entity, the minions’ minds cannot be overwritten and/or subjugated furtherly by another Elder Dragon—corrupting others’ dragon minions is impossible for an Elder Dragon.

Concerning what happened in the Crucible of Eternity, there’s no sign that those actually corrupted by the Inquest actually responded to the Elder Dragons, if anything they might have been intended to respond to Kudu.
In the end, the most powerful experiments (Subject Alpha above all) turned out to be some kind of crazed creations, not responding to anyone.

Sock.2785:

Jhoul.6923

[…] if other Dragons absorb the defeated dragon’s powers; wouldn’t this mean that other dragons would be able to control the sylvari characters?

Mordremoth was able to subjugate and communicate with the sylvari not because of a draconic power, but because of its inherent connection with the Dream of Dreams—this capability was not transmitted to the other Dragons because it was a natural characteristic of Mordremoth itself, one that (supposedly) existed priorly to it becoming an Elder Dragon.

It’s important to remember that sylvari are not dragon minions themselves, they become such only when turned into actual Mordrem. While other Elder Dragons could in theory corrupt the sylvari then, they ultimately can’t do it because—in the end—they aren’t able to access their minds, which is in on itself a fundamental step in the corruption process.


Regarding the ongoing discussion about the overlapping corruption, my take is that an Elder Dragon cannot corrupt those already turned by other Elder Dragons simply because the minions in question were already subjugated by one entity, the minions’ minds cannot be overwritten and/or subjugated furtherly by another Elder Dragon—corrupting others’ dragon minions is impossible for an Elder Dragon.

Concerning what happened in the Crucible of Eternity, there’s no sign that those actually corrupted by the Inquest actually responded to the Elder Dragons, if anything they might have been intended to respond to Kudu.
In the end, the most powerful experiments (Subject Alpha above all) turned out to be some kind of crazed creations, not responding to anyone.

It is important to read Official Dev posts and In game lore stating that Sylvari were designed/created by Mordremoth. They were just not initially subjected to Mordremoths will because of plot armor around the Pale Tree with no real explanation by Devs. They are still dragon minions but with free will unless they fell to Mordremoth calling them home.

Even if you don’t wish it to be so.

@BlaqueFyre The scenario I propose is a very plausible one, at least as much as the prevalent view that states that “sylvari are dragon minions to begin with”—I don’t blindly wish for my view to be true… allow me to briefly explain:

• It’s clear sylvari weren’t created by Mordremoth, main reason being that new sylvari are being born even after its death.

• The in-game lore about this is given to us just by the perspective of the sylvari and their beliefs could have been influenced by Mordremoth.

• The “official Dev post” says that “sylvari were created to be dragon minions” and not that “sylvari are dragon minions”, there is a difference between these two statements: sylvari have the potential to be turned by Mordremoth, they are not dragon minions as soon as they awaken, it’s very different.
  When you say “sylvari were designed by Mordremoth” you commit a mistake, since that very official post actually states that it was their physical transformation [sylvari transforming into Mordrem] to have been designed by Mordremoth—it’s important to actually understand what’s been written.
  In addition, that official post doesn’t actually imply anywhere that they came from Mordremoth itself, and it definitely looks to me that sylvari spawn from Trees after all (and, unfortunately, we don’t yet know about the Trees’ true origins).

BlaqueFyre.5678

[sylvari] are still dragon minions but with free will unless they fell to Mordremoth calling them home.

I thought the very definition of “dragon minion” implies that the corrupted one loses its free will, but you say sylvari are dragon minions with free will… does thas make sense? Also, if they are created by Mordremoth, how could they keep spawning as dragon minions (since, in your view, they just exist because they were spawned as dragon minions) if the Dragon is now dead?

BlaqueFyre.5678

They were just not initially subjected to Mordremoths will because of plot armor around the Pale Tree with no real explanation by Devs.

Are you undervaluing and not considering the still mysterious lore concerning the Pale Tree and the Dream of Dreams? It can’t be simply ignored because it’s yet to be explained by the Devs.
I guess then that in your view every single sylvari would immediately turn to Mordremoth upon the Pale Tree’s death, even if that happened after the Elder Dragon’s death.

Ultimately, my take is as valid—if not more—as the most common one.

Sock.2785:

@BlaqueFyre The scenario I propose is a very plausible one, at least as much as the prevalent view that states that “sylvari are dragon minions to begin with”—I don’t blindly wish for my view to be true… allow me to briefly explain:

• It’s clear sylvari weren’t created by Mordremoth, main reason being that new sylvari are being born even after its death.

• The in-game lore about this is given to us just by the perspective of the sylvari and their beliefs could have been influenced by Mordremoth.

• The “official Dev post” says that “sylvari were created to be dragon minions” and not that “sylvari are dragon minions”, there is a difference between these two statements: sylvari have the potential to be turned by Mordremoth, they are not dragon minions as soon as they awaken, it’s very different.
  When you say “sylvari were designed by Mordremoth” you commit a mistake, since that very official post actually states that it was their physical transformation [sylvari transforming into Mordrem] to have been designed by Mordremoth—it’s important to actually understand what’s been written.
  In addition, that official post doesn’t actually imply anywhere that they came from Mordremoth itself, and it definitely looks to me that sylvari spawn from Trees after all (and, unfortunately, we don’t yet know about the Trees’ true origins).

BlaqueFyre.5678

[sylvari] are still dragon minions but with free will unless they fell to Mordremoth calling them home.

I thought the very definition of “dragon minion” implies that the corrupted one loses its free will, but you say sylvari are dragon minions with free will… does thas make sense? Also, if they are created by Mordremoth, how could they keep spawning as dragon minions (since, in your view, they just exist because they were spawned as dragon minions) if the Dragon is now dead?

BlaqueFyre.5678

They were just not initially subjected to Mordremoths will because of plot armor around the Pale Tree with no real explanation by Devs.

Are you undervaluing and not considering the still mysterious lore concerning the Pale Tree and the Dream of Dreams? It can’t be simply ignored because it’s yet to be explained by the Devs.
I guess then that in your view every single sylvari would immediately turn to Mordremoth upon the Pale Tree’s death, even if that happened after the Elder Dragon’s death.

Ultimately, my take is as valid—if not more—as the most common one.

Sylvari are creations of Mordremoth, by Dev posts and by in game lore throughout Wynne and the Pale Trees confirmation, hence why the Pale Tree had Wynne keep it secret, Mordremoth doesn’t need to be alive for something like the Pale Tree to keep creating them, the Pale Tree was created by Mordremoth they have yet to explain why the Pale Tree and by Extension the Sylvari were not influenced by Mordremoth since their creation hence the Plot armor, you are so hung up on that one sentence that you don’t take into consideration the whole Dev posts that Mordremoth created Sylvari the way he wanted and that he is calling them Home.

A minion doesn’t inherently mean they are subjugated to the dragon i.e. Icebrood have free will.

@BlaqueFyre It seems like you keep going on your route, continuing to repeat the same thing without even considering what I wrote.

• You say “the Pale Tree was created by Mordremoth”, but this isn’t the case, we don’t yet know about the Pale Tree’s origin; you can’t propose this as canon lore.

• The Pale Tree is not omniscent nor immortal, its beliefs could have also been influenced by Mordremoth like those of the sylvari, possibly even through the sylvari’s own beliefs.

• To repeat myself (since you keep assuming sylvari were designed by Mordremoth) the Elder Dragon didn’t design the sylvari, that’s your fallacy; Mordremoth designed the Mordrem Guards’ appearance (thick bark and growth in size).

• Mordremoth shamelessly defined itself as being the very jungle, but it was obviously lying. While we don’t know about the origin of the seeds, we know the Pale Tree’s seed came from the jungle and that it was taken far from its home; supposedly, Mordremoth also knew about the seeds. Mordremoth isn’t then completely lying when “calling them home”, but the thing is that the Elder Dragon is not their home nor their actual creator; it didn’t create the seeds and even less the sylvari.
  Mordremoth did not create the seeds, that’s nowhere to be found, and if you actually believe it to be the case you are just prolonging an assumption.

Ultimately, your view on the sylvari is based on imaginary foundations and as of now you’ve been too uncritical to realize this; and you didn’t answer this question (even though you might think you did): if the sylvari are dragon minions from the start and are simply kept from reverting to their (supposed) true nature by the Pale Tree, would this imply that upon the Pale Tree’s death every sylvari would turn to Mordremoth, even if the Dragon was dead? That would make sense if the sylvari actually were dragon minions, since dragon minions will keep serving their master even after its death.

But sylvari are not dragon minions.

P.S. Icebrood is a wide term, I think you’re referring to the already corrupted Sons of Svanir: these norn willingly chose to follow Jormag, and only the highest in ranks still retain bits of their minds (like it’ll happen with any other Elder Dragon: the dragon minions “highest in rank” retain more of their original minds, but they still lose their free will).

Sock.2785:

@BlaqueFyre It seems like you keep going on your route, continuing to repeat the same thing without even considering what I wrote.

• You say “the Pale Tree was created by Mordremoth”, but this isn’t the case, we don’t yet know about the Pale Tree’s origin; you can’t propose this as canon lore.

• The Pale Tree is not omniscent nor immortal, its beliefs could have also been influenced by Mordremoth like those of the sylvari, possibly even through the sylvari’s own beliefs.

• To repeat myself (since you keep assuming sylvari were designed by Mordremoth) the Elder Dragon didn’t design the sylvari, that’s your fallacy; Mordremoth designed the Mordrem Guards’ appearance (thick bark and growth in size).

• Mordremoth shamelessly defined itself as being the very jungle, but it was obviously lying. While we don’t know about the origin of the seeds, we know the Pale Tree’s seed came from the jungle and that it was taken far from its home; supposedly, Mordremoth also knew about the seeds. Mordremoth isn’t then completely lying when “calling them home”, but the thing is that the Elder Dragon is not their home nor their actual creator; it didn’t create the seeds and even less the sylvari.
  Mordremoth did not create the seeds, that’s nowhere to be found, and if you actually believe it to be the case you are just prolonging an assumption.

Ultimately, your view on the sylvari is based on imaginary foundations and as of now you’ve been too uncritical to realize this; and you didn’t answer this question (even though you might think you did): if the sylvari are dragon minions from the start and are simply kept from reverting to their (supposed) true nature by the Pale Tree, would this imply that upon the Pale Tree’s death every sylvari would turn to Mordremoth, even if the Dragon was dead? That would make sense if the sylvari actually were dragon minions, since dragon minions will keep serving their master even after its death.

But sylvari are not dragon minions.

P.S. Icebrood is a wide term, I think you’re referring to the already corrupted Sons of Svanir: these norn willingly chose to follow Jormag, and only the highest in ranks still retain bits of their minds (like it’ll happen with any other Elder Dragon: the dragon minions “highest in rank” retain more of their original minds, but they still lose their free will).

You keep picking apart the Dev post trying to isolate each part so it serves your view point when you have to take it all as whole and even in game it is stated they were created to serve Mordremoth, and if the Sylvari are created to serve Mordremoth as the Devs have stated and in game lore has stated that means the Pale Tree which is where the Sylvari come from is? Guess what from Mordremoth, it’s not too hard to follow that simple line of thought.

You just seem to only see your view point as being true from the actual Dev posts stating Sylvari are made by Mordremoth and the in game lore stating as such and won’t even consider others view points, at least my view point on the Sylvari origins is supported by actual inhale lore and Dev posts while yours is supported by thin air and your desire for it to be true.

Walhalla.5473:

I was talking about Kudu with the one sentence, who got himself corrupted in the end of COE Story but wasn’t on a " Vote for Kralkatorrik or die" trip or looked like he was brainwashed. he was still Kudu.

Yeah, I was meaning to mention Kudu and it slipped my mind. Another case, I think, of “physical corruption but the mental corrupted hadn’t taken hold”. Whether it eventually would have or whether he’d figured out a way to avoid that, we’ll never know due to his breaking out in a nasty case of death by adventurer.

Amaimon.7823:

The reason ventari is part of the immunity is because if you live the lifestyle of his tablet, you can filter out mordremoths thoughts from your own. In turn, the nightmare lifestyle has a similar effect.

There’s no evidence of this. The protection comes from the Dream and the Pale Tree’s protection through the Dream. Ventari’s tenets themselves have never been said to have an influence.

It’s possible that they have an indirect influence, in that they present a moral structure which allows the behaviour of the dragons to be seen as unacceptable and thus gives the Pale Tree and Dreamers more reason to fight against being forced to side with one. However, any moral framework in which the behaviour of the dragons would be regarded as immoral would have that effect. We see that in the Nightmare Court, which have explicitly replaced Ventari’s tablet with an extremist idealogy about purging the sylvari of any outside control, and that appears to be just as effective.

The reason the CoE experiment is not considered valid is because of the lab conditions. Now that in itself isnt argument but saying lab conditions are sped up replications of natural conditions simply isnt right. In a lab you CAN do things that dont occur naturally because certain conditions arent met in nature. The reason we cant count the inquests experiment as a valid argument is because we dont know how he made a creature with multidragon energies. So its still entirely possible it was made under conditions that dont occur in nature.

Simply put, unnatural lab conditions performed by asuras are no proof that the same can happen by dragons in nature. Different creatures, different conditions, different intentions.

You’re trying to argue “you can’t prove I’m wrong therefore you must admit I’m right” here.

Lab experiments follow the same laws of nature and magic as anything outside the lab. Now, granted, some things that may happen in a lab under the control of sapient beings that are highly unlikely to happen without sapient direction, but the dragons are sapient too. They’re not just randomly following laws of nature, they’re also intelligent and seeking to carry out their goals, to the point of having their own ‘labs’ (as Zhaitan does with some of the cathedrals in Orr, for instance).

It’s possible that, in their study within the past asuran lifetime (remember, Kudu’s work was based on Snaff’s), they’ve managed to hit on something that the dragons, with their millenia of experience and intuitive understanding of how their own magic works, have not. However, while we don’t know the full details, what we do know of the Inquest’s methods seems to basically be extracting dragon energy from minions, concentrating it, and infusing it in the target. We know the dragons are capable of performing the same procedure, so from what we do know of the Inquest’s procedure, there is nothing to indicate that it’s much different from what the dragons already do to create their more powerful minions. (Talking about Risen Abomination or Giant level here, too, not the full-on champions and leaders.)

Furthermore, even if we did assume that the Inquest have found a way to use dragon energy that the dragons themselves haven’t, there’s still the fact that we’ve seen no sylvari being corrupted by the Inquest, despite them having plenty of incentive to try. This suggests that, at the very least, corrupting sylvari is harder than corrupting a minion of one dragon with the energy of another, and therefore that sylvari resistance cannot be explained purely by “they’re already corrupted”.

IF dragons can corrupt other minions they either dont want to or dont have the natural capacity to do so, maybe minions die if they get controlled by two dragons or they simply follow the leader with the strongest will which would inately be their creator.

I’ve already given plenty of reasons why dragons might not choose to corrupt another dragon’s minions despite having the capacity.

However, at least some of these reasons still give them incentive to try with free-willed sylvari.

@BlaqueFyre If you actually tried to read what I wrote it’ll be clear that I did not pickpocket any information; try to understand what one is saying instead of blindly saying “sylvari are created by Mordremoth”.

The scenario I propose was built around the informations we have, I do not create lore to support my view, like you do: sylvari were not designed by Mordremoth, you are imagining this; you say that “sylvari are made by Mordremoth” but that’s not the case, we have no clear line stating that and, again, the information given to us by the sylvari is not reliable (and not because I want it to be unreliable); the seeds did not come from Mordremoth, there’s nothing stating that.
You see information where there isn’t.

The Devs are known to leave loose threads for future developments, and my view totally fits in this.

But however I pose it you’re just gonna ignore the points I made.

Sock.2785:

@BlaqueFyre If you actually tried to read what I wrote it’ll be clear that I did not pickpocket any information; try to understand what one is saying instead of blindly saying “sylvari are created by Mordremoth”.

The scenario I propose was built around the informations we have, I do not create lore to support my view, like you do: sylvari were not designed by Mordremoth, you are imagining this; you say that “sylvari are made by Mordremoth” but that’s not the case, we have no clear line stating that and, again, the information given to us by the sylvari is not reliable (and not because I want it to be unreliable); the seeds did not come from Mordremoth, there’s nothing stating that.
You see information where there isn’t.

The Devs are known to leave loose threads for future developments, and my view totally fits in this.

But however I pose it you’re just gonna ignore the points I made.

Let’s get this straight I am quoting actual sources while you have yet to back up any of your “facts” with real sources besides your interpretation that goes against actual statements by Devs.

Again you are getting hung up on that one sentence. Let me lay it out clearly in the very first statement from the official Dev posts says.

“Yes, it’s true—sylvari were created to be dragon minions. And now Mordremoth has called them home.”

Let’s look at the last part of that sentence “Mordremoth has called them Home” after stating they were created to be dragon Minions.

Now let’s go off of that they were created to be dragon minions who would have created them to be such? Oh right Mordremoth. Now I will concede to they probably are not Dragon Minions when they don’t heed the Call, but you can’t dispute that Mordremoth is their creator, since who else would have created Sylvari to be dragon minions? And this is verified in game by both Wynne and The Pale Tree as well as by the Devs.

So if the Sylvari are created by Mordremoth as per Dev posts and by in game lore that would mean the source that propogates the creation of Mordremoth would also be created by Mordremoth. You have no facts in game lore or otherwise to assert that it isn’t yet the inference is there that if Sylvari were created to be dragon minions then the Pale Tree is from the same creator.

Then there is the fact of these two clauses

“When a sylvari becomes a Mordrem Guard, they also transform physically. This was by Mordremoth’s design. "

Again stating by his design they will change in appearance.

I would like to see actual facts and statements from in game and from Devs backing your claims! I doubt any will come about and all we will be left with are your interpretations

Tl;Dr

The Sylvari are created by Mordremoth, by extension then the Pale Tree would be as well.

They are only considered minions when they become Mordremoth Guard and heed the call.

@BlaqueFyre It’s clear for everyone that sylvari are created through the Pale Tree, but it’s also clear that Mordremoth has nothing to do with their actual creation, how they actually come to be is still shrouded in mystery, the Dream of Dreams is still mysterious. What we actually know is that terrible plant creatures (supposedly Mordrem) guarded the very same seeds from which the Pale Tree originated, and we do not know about the seeds’ origin; if Mordremoth could grow new ones at any given time (which I guess it’s a possibility in your view), why even spawn those seeds millennia earlier to actually using them? Unless the seeds are not from Mordremoth and there’s a limited amount of them available to the Dragon: Mordremoth knew about their potential and was determined to exploit them.
You can’t dispute that the statement “sylvari were created to be dragon minions” is very different from the one stating that “sylvari were created as dragon minions”, the official statement implies that sylvari need to be corrupted in order to fall to Mordremoth; sylvari are not inherently dragon minions, they need to be corrupted first.
Mordremoth is like a malevolent adoptive parent who’s willing to abuse and use its adopted children for its own motives.

BlaqueFyre.5678

“When a sylvari becomes a Mordrem Guard, they also transform physically. This was by Mordremoth’s design."

Again stating by his design they will change in appearance.

Mordremoth gets involved only when sylvari get corrupted, it is their physical transformation into Mordrem Guards that’s dictated (designed) by Mordremoth. To quote Scott McGough: “A Mordrem Guard’s appearance is more due to Mordremoth’s ability to control and shape plant life—sylvari are plants, after all, and once Mordy’s mental influence takes hold of a sylvari, it then twists their physical form into this more formidable configuration. It is related to a dark mirror of a sylvari’s ability to change their own appearance, but in this case it’s being directed by Mordy and not the individual”.
You instead stated that sylvari themselves are designed by Mordremoth, which is nowhere to be found, and came from your imagination.

Ultimately, what’s clear is that we lack complete answers on this, and you don’t realize that my view is as viable as yours with the amount of information we have.

P.S. Again, the in-game lore about this just come to us via the sylvari, and they are not a reliable source.

Sock.2785:

@BlaqueFyre It’s clear for everyone that sylvari are created through the Pale Tree, but it’s also clear that Mordremoth has nothing to do with their actual creation, how they actually come to be is still shrouded in mystery, the Dream of Dreams is still mysterious. What we actually know is that terrible plant creatures (supposedly Mordrem) guarded the very same seeds from which the Pale Tree originated, and we do not know about the seeds’ origin; if Mordremoth could grow new ones at any given time (which I guess it’s a possibility in your view), why even spawn those seeds millennia earlier to actually using them? Unless the seeds are not from Mordremoth and there’s a limited amount of them available to the Dragon: Mordremoth knew about their potential and was determined to exploit them.
You can’t dispute that the statement “sylvari were created to be dragon minions” is very different from the one stating that “sylvari were created as dragon minions”, the official statement implies that sylvari need to be corrupted in order to fall to Mordremoth; sylvari are not inherently dragon minions, they need to be corrupted first.
Mordremoth is like a malevolent adoptive parent who’s willing to abuse and use its adopted children for its own motives.

BlaqueFyre.5678

“When a sylvari becomes a Mordrem Guard, they also transform physically. This was by Mordremoth’s design."

Again stating by his design they will change in appearance.

Mordremoth gets involved only when sylvari get corrupted, it is their physical transformation into Mordrem Guards that’s dictated (designed) by Mordremoth. To quote Scott McGough: “A Mordrem Guard’s appearance is more due to Mordremoth’s ability to control and shape plant life—sylvari are plants, after all, and once Mordy’s mental influence takes hold of a sylvari, it then twists their physical form into this more formidable configuration. It is related to a dark mirror of a sylvari’s ability to change their own appearance, but in this case it’s being directed by Mordy and not the individual”.
You instead stated that sylvari themselves are designed by Mordremoth, which is nowhere to be found, and came from your imagination.

Ultimately, what’s clear is that we lack complete answers on this, and you don’t realize that my view is as viable as yours with the amount of information we have.

P.S. Again, the in-game lore about this just come to us via the sylvari, and they are not a reliable source.

If the official statement was only in regards to them being corruptible it would have said that again the stated created to be minions not turned into or corrupted in to minions but created to be dragon minions. you seem to not know what the term created means.

Now like I said they were created to be dragon minions, but since they were outside of Mordremoths influence they weren’t dragon minions but would still be created by them.

Again you don’t seem to know the definition of Created.

I am done arguing with you you dispute actual Lore and Dev statements and the because it doesn’t fit you view of Sylvari.