Guild Wars 2

This is a pretty obvious theory, but I haven’t seen it stated elsewhere – except in a previous post by me in a different thread.

In Guildwars, we knew of two dragons: Glint and Kuunavang. Though “Bubbles” hasn’t been totally confirmed in-game yet, would it be saying too much to assume Kuunavang might have been his/her champion ala Glint and Kralkatorrik?

And where are Glint’s children? Were they all destroyed by destroyers or did she manage to hide away any of them and/or her eggs? In Guildwars we are tasked with keeping destroyers from killing (or corrupting) one of her children, so we know they were targeted by Primordus even when (if Primordus was aware of her and Kralkatorrik in general – and being aware of great sources of magic, I would definitely think the dragons are aware of every aspect of each other) she was considered Kralk’s champion.

And who was the father of these children of Glints, if any? Were they Kralkatorriks? What is the relationship of an Elder Dragon to a lesser dragon like Glint? Glint does go into this a little when she meets Destiny’s Edge, but now that we have lost her to the fight – we have no way of asking her what else she knew about the physiology of dragons and their relationships.

Some interesting questions. Perhaps they will be answered.

That’s among the oldest speculations on Kuunavang post-the Movement of the World. But it’s not the case:

1) The Deep Sea Dragon is heavily implied via quaggan, krait, and largos lore to be in the Unending Ocean – not near Cantha.
2) More important, nothing relates Kuunavang to water, the element of the DSD.

However, Kuunavang and Glint are compared to each other a bit since the Movement, so it’s likely she – like Glint – was a champion of an Elder Dragon (possibly given free will the same way as Glint, via a spell used by the forgotten who did have a presence on Cantha).

The state of Glint’s child(ren) is unknown. As to the “father” – none, supposedly. Champions of Elder Dragons have the power to create more minions. I’d assume that the child/children were created in a similar manner as her Crystal Guardian/Crystal Spiders, considering the eggs were crystal and all.

I wouldn’t say the Elder Dragons are aware of “every” aspect of each other – since they’re said to be rivals (from an interview with Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee).

Koning de Todes

1) The Deep Sea Dragon is heavily implied via quaggan, krait, and largos lore to be in the Unending Ocean – not near Cantha.

You should check the maps again. The Unending Ocean is the biggest body of water on the planet and connects all the continents. Unlike the other Dragons, The Deep Sea Dragon can extend its influence all over the world in any continent it wishes and can change its base of operations. Since Cantha is a traditional naval power, it only makes sense to cast him as the main supernatural enemy of the empire.

Legion.4198:

Koning de Todes

1) The Deep Sea Dragon is heavily implied via quaggan, krait, and largos lore to be in the Unending Ocean – not near Cantha.

You should check the maps again. The Unending Ocean is the biggest body of water on the planet and connects all the continents. Unlike the other Dragons, The Deep Sea Dragon can extend its influence all over the world in any continent it wishes and can change its base of operations. Since Cantha is a traditional naval power, it only makes sense to cast him as the main supernatural enemy of the empire.

First off all, I’m not saying your not right. This might have been the case during the first dragon’s awakening. But though that is hard to date that was before humans where an important faction in the world. One of the races that fought the dragon’s then where the margonites (before becomming Abadon’s minions). They where afaik the race that dominated the seas during the last awakening and most evidence point in the direction that humans didn’t even existed then so let alone the empire.

Now during the second awakening of the dragons the empire has closed all outside influence and therefore it is very unlikely they can still be a naval power when trade and traffic is mostly blocked by the goverment.

Weren´t the margonites just a race of humans as far as we know? (before falling with abaddon that is)

And i haven´t seen any hints towards them having been around the last time dragons were awake. Quite the contrary actualy, there´s one priory researcher saying that 5 races that confronted them last time were Mursaat, Jotun, Seer, Dwarves and Forgotten.

hmmm, your right. Must be that in gw1 they where so much considered a different race, I forgot they where once humans and was mixing them up with the forgotten.

point is however that the humans wheren’t important during the last awakening and therefor, considering any dragon the ancient enemy of the empire would be wrong in my opinion. Also if you compare the position of dragons in the Canthan culture and compare it to the position of a lesser thread like Shiro.

mercury ranique.2170:

Legion.4198:

Koning de Todes

1) The Deep Sea Dragon is heavily implied via quaggan, krait, and largos lore to be in the Unending Ocean – not near Cantha.

You should check the maps again. The Unending Ocean is the biggest body of water on the planet and connects all the continents. Unlike the other Dragons, The Deep Sea Dragon can extend its influence all over the world in any continent it wishes and can change its base of operations. Since Cantha is a traditional naval power, it only makes sense to cast him as the main supernatural enemy of the empire.

First off all, I’m not saying your not right. This might have been the case during the first dragon’s awakening. But though that is hard to date that was before humans where an important faction in the world. One of the races that fought the dragon’s then where the margonites (before becomming Abadon’s minions). They where afaik the race that dominated the seas during the last awakening and most evidence point in the direction that humans didn’t even existed then so let alone the empire.

Now during the second awakening of the dragons the empire has closed all outside influence and therefore it is very unlikely they can still be a naval power when trade and traffic is mostly blocked by the goverment.

The Canthans have been an Empire that has not only has existed as an unified entity since even before the rest of humanity even arrived to the planet, but also knew about their arrival and could have easily conquered them. Cantha had already well developed Deep Sea navigation even when the Charr dominated Ascalon. The existene of a previous seafaring race doesn’t change this fact.

Second, we have news of Canthan sailors washing ashore on Tyria. Thus proving that the Empire is more than willing to extend its influence far from their mainland. Either the Empire has domains and renewed trade threatened by the DSD or has changed its isolationist policies for one of expansionism and conquest. Whoever controls the seas can dominate and extend its influence all over the world and controls the access to international oversea markets.

Finally, the races of Tyria have lost all the experience in open sea for a hundred years. The Tyrian fleets pose no threat to the DSD. If the DSD begins to threaten cities like Lion’s Arch, Rata Sum, the Domain of the Winds, and the coast of Tyria, we will need someone who hasn’t lost this knowledge.

Legion.4198:

Koning de Todes

1) The Deep Sea Dragon is heavily implied via quaggan, krait, and largos lore to be in the Unending Ocean – not near Cantha.

You should check the maps again. The Unending Ocean is the biggest body of water on the planet and connects all the continents. Unlike the other Dragons, The Deep Sea Dragon can extend its influence all over the world in any continent it wishes and can change its base of operations. Since Cantha is a traditional naval power, it only makes sense to cast him as the main supernatural enemy of the empire.

You should try to realize my meaning. The DSD is said to be in the deepest part of a sea. The krait, pushed out by an “underwater dragon,” lived in the deepest trenches of the Unending Ocean.

The deepest parts of bodies of water are almost never near coastal lands.

Also, please provide a source saying Cantha’s a naval power. I have never seen such.

mercury ranique.2170:

One of the races that fought the dragon’s then where the margonites (before becomming Abadon’s minions). They where afaik the race that dominated the seas during the last awakening and most evidence point in the direction that humans didn’t even existed then so let alone the empire.

Uh, no. The only races known to have fought the Elder Dragons were the Forgotten, dwarves, seers, mursaat, and jotun. It’s implied kodan, krait, and tengu may have been around at that time, but that’s unconfirmed.

Margonites were humans that were transformed by Abaddon. So you just contradicted yourself as well.

Legion.4198:

The Canthans have been an Empire that has not only has existed as an unified entity since even before the rest of humanity even arrived to the planet, but also knew about their arrival and could have easily conquered them. Cantha had already well developed Deep Sea navigation even when the Charr dominated Ascalon. The existene of a previous seafaring race doesn’t change this fact.

Second, we have news of Canthan sailors washing ashore on Tyria. Thus proving that the Empire is more than willing to extend its influence far from their mainland. Either the Empire has domains and renewed trade threatened by the DSD or has changed its isolationist policies for one of expansionism and conquest. Whoever controls the seas can dominate and extend its influence all over the world and controls the access to international oversea markets.

Finally, the races of Tyria have lost all the experience in open sea for a hundred years. The Tyrian fleets pose no threat to the DSD. If the DSD begins to threaten cities like Lion’s Arch, Rata Sum, the Domain of the Winds, and the coast of Tyria, we will need someone who hasn’t lost this knowledge.

I’d seriously like to know where you’re getting these “facts.”

Cantha existed prior to humans on continental Tyria and Elona, but nothing states they’re the oldest human civilization – in fact, it’s highly implied that they aren’t. Furthermore, they all came from somewhere, and nothing implies they came directly from the Mists.

Where do you get that Cantha had developed “deep sea navigation” prior to when the charr took over Ascalon? First of all, no human has – to our knowledge – explored the deepest parts of ocean. Second of all, we don’t know when the charr took over Ascalon.

Sailors washing ashore doesn’t mean they’re with the Empire – they could be refugees or outlaws just as easily as they can be sailing under the emperor’s orders.

Krait, quaggan, and largos are all heavily implied to have fled from the DSD. And the largos are equally implied to be fighting – or intending to return to fighting shortly – in their homelands, said to be the deepest oceans that has become filled with horrors.

I could have sworn Kuunavang and all the dragons like her were associated with water somehow…

Probably because they were called "Saltspray" dragons and they lived on the Jade Sea? That implies a connection to water at one point in time, but not necessarily any longer.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s among the oldest speculations on Kuunavang post-the Movement of the World. But it’s not the case:

1) The Deep Sea Dragon is heavily implied via quaggan, krait, and largos lore to be in the Unending Ocean – not near Cantha.
2) More important, nothing relates Kuunavang to water, the element of the DSD.

However, Kuunavang and Glint are compared to each other a bit since the Movement, so it’s likely she – like Glint – was a champion of an Elder Dragon (possibly given free will the same way as Glint, via a spell used by the forgotten who did have a presence on Cantha).

The state of Glint’s child(ren) is unknown. As to the “father” – none, supposedly. Champions of Elder Dragons have the power to create more minions. I’d assume that the child/children were created in a similar manner as her Crystal Guardian/Crystal Spiders, considering the eggs were crystal and all.

I wouldn’t say the Elder Dragons are aware of “every” aspect of each other – since they’re said to be rivals (from an interview with Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee).

If they are Rivals I want to see us lose a fight to a Dragon right before destroying it, only to have another Elder Dragon come in and get in a battle with the Elder Dragon about to kills us.

Best. Live. Cinematic. Ever.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Also, please provide a source saying Cantha’s a naval power. I have never seen such.

An Empire Divided

305 CC (Age of the Falcon) (205 BE)

Though the news would not arrive in the Empire of the Dragon for several decades after the fact, the year 305 by Canthan reckoning saw the arrival of humans on the continent of Tyria. When news of these primitive barbarians did eventually reach Cantha, it was considered of little consequence. Perhaps, if the Canthans had seen fit to drive north and expand their empire, history would have played out very differently. But with the concerns and needs of an already sprawling realm, the emperors of Cantha chose to remain within their borders. And so the various Tyrian cultures developed, unhindered by—and for the most part, unaware of—their southern neighbors.

As we can see, Cantha have been an advanced naval powers even when the Ascalonians and Elonians were nothing but a bunch of primitive tribes. Being the nation with the biggest economic influence, as it was shown by the Xunlai only reinforces this fact.

“Whoever controls the seas controls the world trade; whoever controls world trade holds all the treasures of the world in his possession, and in fact, the whole world.”

Before 1492, Europe was a backwater of small nationalities struggling over a relatively small piece of cold, rainy land. But one technological change made Europe the center of the international system: deep-water navigation.

The ability to engage in long-range shipping safely allowed businesses on the Continent’s various navigable rivers to interact easily with each other, magnifying the rivers’ capital-generation capacity. Deep-water navigation also allowed many of the European nations to conquer vast extra-European empires. In short order, Europe went from being a cultural and economic backwater to being the engine of the world.

Cantha has been a naval power since the dawn of the Ascalonian and Elonian civilizations. The Megalopolis of Kaineng has more harbors than the entire world combined. You only need to see the extension of the Canthan ports. Almost every ship we saw in GW1 was of Canthan design or had a Canthan captain. It is quite evident that Canthans were able to impose their superior naval power as it is shown with the Xunlai, even after decades of isolation.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Sailors washing ashore doesn’t mean they’re with the Empire – they could be refugees or outlaws just as easily as they can be sailing under the emperor’s orders.

And why would they need to go as far when there are plenty of other lands not siegued by Zhaitain? There are at least three more destinations to chose, including Elona, before risking their lives with breaking Zhaitans’s blockade. The only explanation is that Cantha interests extend to the lands near Tyria and thus will end in conflict with DSD.

Funny because we have a Luxon in the Order of Whisper with an obvious spanish name, I don’t know why Arenanet would chose to change the original Greek names for Spanish ones unless they have decided to transform them into Conquistadors at the service of the Empire.

That quote does nothing to state of Cantha’s naval abilities other than it was able to sail north. Obviously this was already capable since people had already sailed north, Luxons had existed, and most likely Margonites did too.

Lore newer than Ermenred’s little essay on Cantha indicate that those in Tyria were never that primitive – and one can’t really say such when Fahranur was built within five years of those “primitive” tribes landing on Elona, or with Orr/Arah established around that time as well.

I fail to see the relevance of the history lesson on Europe.

Actually, most ships in Kryta are Orrian, those in the Shiverpeaks are Stone Summit, and those ships in Cantha are Crimson Skull. Those in Elona are mostly Kournan or Istani. This all determined by the emblem on the sails. There are also a handful of captains with Ascalonian models – I don’t think you can count the guild ambassadors as “captains” of ships, even if they’re always located on one.

Kaineng has need of multiple ports due to how large the city – and its coast – is. Kryta has a fairly small coast, only being Lion’s Arch, D’Alessio Seaboard, and Gates of Kryta area. There’s Port Sledge in the Shiverpeaks. There’s not much water for ports to the Shiverpeaks, and there’s none for Ascalon. Istan has multiple docks as well – Consulate Docks, Sun Docks, Kamadan, some in Zelon Reach, and some in the Keys (forgot name, starts with an M). Kourna has 2 major ones, one being Gandara.

Kaineng has 3 docks on the mainland and 3 on Shing Jea Island – two of the latter are controlled by pirates.

So I’m not seeing Cantha as a naval military power due to the amount of commerce ships being Canthan, or the amount of docks.

Also: Who says Canthans even know of Zhaitan? The Unending Ocean is a big place, and if no sailors ever return from their voyages – and knowledge of krait and pirates harrowing ships is well known – then how can they know of Zhaitan? They might know of the DSD, if it’s pushing south/southeast/southwest (depending on where it is), but even then who says they’re fighting it.

Also, three destinations? The Battle Isles are sunk. Elona they very well may be trading with for all we know. Where else is there? There’s no other land between Cantha and Orr but Elona after Zhaitan’s rise.

And I think I know who you’re referring to for the Whispers member – the human prefector (forgot his name). However, unless I’m missing something it’s never confirmed he’s Canthan. My character asks him if he’s from Kryta – he starts with “no” then goes “oh wait, the human kingdom? yes, yes!” to which my character responded “You don’t look Elonian. Canthan?” and he went “that’s need to know” – in short, it’s highly implied he’s Canthan, but never confirmed, let alone that he’s Luxon (again, unless I’m missing something you can elaborate for me?).

Also, the name is likely to have him blend in with Krytans – which in GW1 had some Spanish names occasionally.

Cantha is in the Southern Hemisphere, far from Tyria. Their capability to reach the northern lands easily proves that Cantha already had a capable navy back then. The technological status of the northern kingdom is irrelevant since my main point is that Cantha had existed as unified entity for far more than 305 years before the first humans began to appear on the northern super-continent.

Since Canthans are shown to control the international markets, the only logic is to conclude that Cantha also controls the sea. The richest nations are always those who control the international markets. The basis of modern economic activity is The ability to move goods and services from areas where they are in high supply to areas where they are in high demand. Navigable rivers, seas and other bodies of water allow you to do that cheaply and quickly. Typically, it’s worth is 10 times cheaper than overland. This simple fact makes countries with robust maritime transport options extremely capital-rich when compared to countries limited to land-only options.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kaineng has need of multiple ports due to how large the city – and its coast – is. Kryta has a fairly small coast, only being Lion’s Arch, D’Alessio Seaboard, and Gates of Kryta area. There’s Port Sledge in the Shiverpeaks. There’s not much water for ports to the Shiverpeaks, and there’s none for Ascalon. Istan has multiple docks as well – Consulate Docks, Sun Docks, Kamadan, some in Zelon Reach, and some in the Keys (forgot name, starts with an M). Kourna has 2 major ones, one being Gandara.

I fail to see how this does nothing but reinforce the fact that Cantha has more naval capabilities than the rest of the continents. The problems with the pirates and criminal gangs are over with the Ministry of Purity having broken their base. Second, despite the fame of the corsairs, Elona will never be able to match Canthan naval sea power simply because Elona doesn’t have enough wood to build enough ships compared to Cantha. Same reason why Egypt has never been a naval power. Even more when the bulk of the human population in Elona has probably moved north to the Crystal Desert when Palawa Joko diverted the Elon river north and killed the entire ecosystem of Old Elona.

There two additional continents besides Cantha and the Tyrian-Elonian super continent according to the world map, and we know that there’s plenty of land east of Elona. Yes, I know this come from a leak, but one of the textures leaked correspond with the globe in the Chantry of Secrets. I haven’t time to examine it with precision but I assume it is the same map as we found. These two new lands could be potentially useful for Canthan colonies.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And I think I know who you’re referring to for the Whispers member – the human prefector (forgot his name). However, unless I’m missing something it’s never confirmed he’s Canthan. My character asks him if he’s from Kryta – he starts with “no” then goes “oh wait, the human kingdom? yes, yes!” to which my character responded “You don’t look Elonian. Canthan?” and he went “that’s need to know” – in short, it’s highly implied he’s Canthan, but never confirmed, let alone that he’s Luxon (again, unless I’m missing something you can elaborate for me?).

Also, the name is likely to have him blend in with Krytans – which in GW1 had some Spanish names occasionally.

I very much doubt it is an accident. There are tons of Canthan characters in Kryta who have straight Canthan names. By contrast I haven’t see many Elonians claiming to be Elonians.

Law of Productive Gullibility (Ruby Rule): Whenever anybody comes up to you with a patently ludicrous claim (such as, “I’m not a cat, I’m really an ancient Red Dragon”) there’s an at least two-thirds chance they’re telling the truth. Therefore, it pays to humor everyone you meet; odds are you’ll be glad you did later on.

Yes, it is a possibility his Mediterranean name is just because his family has blended with Krytans, but with him saying “it’s classified” implies that he’s indeed from Cantha. On top of that, it is implied that the Order of Whispers can, somehow, bypass Zhaitans blockade in the interviews. I think you just don’t want to visit Cantha again for some reason or another.

The Order of Whispers can get to Elona. If Joko is trading with Cantha, that means in principle the Order can get to Cantha as well, they’re just not saying anything about what’s going on there.

That said, there is another option you haven’t considered – another nation of humans somewhere that we as players don’t know about. Additionally, nothing in what you’ve said indicates anything more than that Cantha has (or had, although there’s no reason to think that’s changed) a strong trading fleet – it’s a big step to go from that to being a military naval superpower, especially in a time when historically a navy of ~100 ships was generally regarded as strong. Instead, in fact, the pirate activity around Cantha in GW1 suggests that at that time at least, Cantha wasn’t even able to keep pirates from its own shores, let alone ruling the waves.

draxynnic.3719:

The Order of Whispers can get to Elona. If Joko is trading with Cantha, that means in principle the Order can get to Cantha as well, they’re just not saying anything about what’s going on there.

That said, there is another option you haven’t considered – another nation of humans somewhere that we as players don’t know about. Additionally, nothing in what you’ve said indicates anything more than that Cantha has (or had, although there’s no reason to think that’s changed) a strong trading fleet – it’s a big step to go from that to being a military naval superpower, especially in a time when historically a navy of ~100 ships was generally regarded as strong. Instead, in fact, the pirate activity around Cantha in GW1 suggests that at that time at least, Cantha wasn’t even able to keep pirates from its own shores, let alone ruling the waves.

Pirates go where there is gold to be had, hence why most went where the trading was good. I don’t think it’s that far of a jump to conclude that in 250 years, the nation with the largest trading fleet, which was constantly battling pirates at sea, would also develop a superior naval military. Unless the nation that was constantly trading, which means they were gaining information and other supplies in return, suddenly decided to not advance at all.

Now I’m not saying this means the DSD is at their shores, I mean I think the theory makes since, but I hope that in the expansions that the other nations have their own problems to deal with and that if the DSD is there, it’s not a main focus but a side boss or something. If anything, the only reason I don’t see Cantha controlling the seas is if they were hindered by something or someone trying to trap them and destroy them, say a pirate leading a large force who has found an ancient treasure at the bottom of the ocean and now controls a large power.

Legion.4198:

Cantha is in the Southern Hemisphere, far from Tyria.
Their capability to reach the northern lands easily proves that Cantha already had a capable navy back then.

I wouldn’t say 2 weeks sailing – or “a few hundred miles” is “far from Tyria” per say.

Furthermore, you’re confusing navy with sailing. Merchant ships are not a military – or naval – force.

Legion.4198:

I fail to see how this does nothing but reinforce the fact that Cantha has more naval capabilities than the rest of the continents. The problems with the pirates and criminal gangs are over with the Ministry of Purity having broken their base. Second, despite the fame of the corsairs, Elona will never be able to match Canthan naval sea power simply because Elona doesn’t have enough wood to build enough ships compared to Cantha. Same reason why Egypt has never been a naval power. Even more when the bulk of the human population in Elona has probably moved north to the Crystal Desert when Palawa Joko diverted the Elon river north and killed the entire ecosystem of Old Elona.

My point was that it doesn’t support your claim. Cantha has just as many ports as any other continent – the difference is that the continent of Cantha – that we saw – was united under a single banner.

Furthermore, the Ministry of Purity didn’t touch the Crimson Skull. Fun fact.

Elona has a lot of wood, actually. Far more to use for a naval than an overgrown city that spends so many resources on building new houses on top of still-existing old ones. Ever been to Istan or the coast of Kourna?

Legion.4198:

There two additional continents besides Cantha and the Tyrian-Elonian super continent according to the world map, and we know that there’s plenty of land east of Elona.

This is assuming that Canthans know of these lands and that those lands have people who both are capable and willing of trading.

Maybe Cantha is exploring via sailors, and most of their sailors are never returning and they don’t know the cause is the deep sea dragon. Very plausible.

Legion.4198:

Yes, it is a possibility his Mediterranean name is just because his family has blended with Krytans, but with him saying “it’s classified” implies that he’s indeed from Cantha. On top of that, it is implied that the Order of Whispers can, somehow, bypass Zhaitans blockade in the interviews. I think you just don’t want to visit Cantha again for some reason or another.

Could also mean that he comes from one of those two other continents which happen to have humans – the globe is indeed in the Chantry of Secrets and therefore the Whispers know of those lands which may or may not have humans.

I do not deny that he’s Canthan, by the way, just the reasoning behind the name may not be that they decided to alter Canthan naming systems. What I was questioning was rather your claim that he’s a Luxon. And I presume they are capable of bypassing via an asura gate in Elona – which is what they bypass, btw, not Zhaitan’s blockade (that is, they bypass the borders of Elona with 2 undead fighting each other and/or Kralkatorriks domain).

Servek.6791:

-snip-

If you want to get technical, the empire wasn’t constantly battling the Crimson Skull at sea. They were hitting them on the ports and at their land camps.

Considering that Cantha became isolationist, if they developed a navy it would have been with the intent of defense. Which would probably mean that they would focus more on anti-ship weaponry and defenses rather than building ships that can go across the vast Unending ocean. They would have no reason to expand their navy for trade or for military conquest. Unless Usoku’s son followed traditional Canthan actions of emperors where the son almost always contradicts the father, there’s nothing to lead Cantha into being a non-isolationist country. And even if they did, it’s far more likely that Elona, being unified under Joko who would have desire to spread his influence in all directions possible, is more likely to have a navy powerhouse – especially since Istan was known as the navy military power in GW1 (though not sure if compared to other navies in the time period).

I find difficult to believe that the biggest trading fleet in the world for multiple generations, uninterrupted for centuries, before Shiro cursed the place and the grandchild of the Emperor cut all the trade, never had any problems with pirates for 600 years.

The reason why Istan is a naval power is not because of wood, it is because it is a strait. As a choke point for the trade between Elona, Cantha and Tyria, any city that control a strait can stop ships from going through it or more likely tax them. Sure, Elona was more in touch with Melandru than mainland Cantha during Gw1 (without considering the fact that Cantha had more overseas possessions like the Zaishen Islands) but that doesn’t matter anymore because today’s Elona ecosystem is dead. Also, considering that Elona is much closer to Tyria than Cantha, it should have been hit even harder by the Great Tsunami. Plus, Istan, being at such low sea-level, was probably swallowed by the sea.

The Cantha that we saw in Gw1 was just recovering from the catastrophe made by Shiro (also the whole Plague bussiness-thing during our visit) and even then it was a Canthan organization, The Xunlai Guild, not an Elonian one, not a Krytan one, the one with financial superiority. With Echovald Forest recovering, the Canthan Empire will have more and more wood at its disposal. Besides that, you are ignoring the fact that his gargantuan city was build with the Echovald Forest already turned into stone and with all trade with the exterior closed, so it is likely that Cantha has more sources of wood. I can also see a good portion of Kaineng being remodeled by the Ministry of Purity in its own image.

There will be a Canthan expansion. There is a fair amount of people who like the Asian setting and want to see it again. The fans of the Tengu will demand it and the people who like the Tengu is because they like the Japanese flavor, not the Aztec one.

Elunarie.9283:

In Guildwars, we knew of two dragons: Glint and Kuunavang. Though “Bubbles” hasn’t been totally confirmed in-game yet, would it be saying too much to assume Kuunavang might have been his/her champion ala Glint and Kralkatorrik?

And where are Glint’s children? Were they all destroyed by destroyers or did she manage to hide away any of them and/or her eggs? In Guildwars we are tasked with keeping destroyers from killing (or corrupting) one of her children, so we know they were targeted by Primordus even when (if Primordus was aware of her and Kralkatorrik in general – and being aware of great sources of magic, I would definitely think the dragons are aware of every aspect of each other) she was considered Kralk’s champion.

And who was the father of these children of Glints, if any? Were they Kralkatorriks? What is the relationship of an Elder Dragon to a lesser dragon like Glint? Glint does go into this a little when she meets Destiny’s Edge, but now that we have lost her to the fight – we have no way of asking her what else she knew about the physiology of dragons and their relationships.

Some interesting questions. Perhaps they will be answered.

Ree Soesbee has repeatedly stated that Glint’s babies might make a reappearance in GW2 – Though this would be in an expansion most likely. I’d find links and such, but I’m lazy. This was asked in one of the more recent interviews on TwitchTV however, I believe – And I know I asked her myself about the babies at Gamescom in 2011 =) Of which I’m 100% sure there are video’s roaming around on YouTube ^^ You’d have to look that up though, heh.

@Legion: No one said they didn’t have pirate problems for 600 years. In fact, I believe it’s stated when pirates became a problem in Cantha in An Empire Divided – and yes, just checked, it does. Pirates became a problem in 872 AE, becoming known as the Crimson Skull and still an issue in 1072 AE (200 years later). Along with this, we have mention of pirates 100 years prior to that (merely a “300 years ago” via Kitah’s monument in Tahnnakai Temple). So prior to GW1, they had pirate problems for 300 years. If they were a naval powerhouse like you claim, I doubt they’d have such issues – especially with 2 of 3 Shing Jea Island ports being commandeered by said pirates in GW1.

I fail to see why the strait between Istan and Kourna is why Istan is a naval power. Also, I wasn’t saying Istan was a naval power because of wood – I was instead saying that they have wood unlike your claim and that they are a naval power. Two separate statements (though arguably, one would need wood in order to be a naval power – need resources for all those ships). The strait between Istan and Kourna does nothing to affect Canthan trade to Tyria, so I don’t see how your linking the strait to controlling trade? As far as I know, that strait isn’t used as a choke point and Istan isn’t a naval power because of any trade-related reasons. Yes, they do get a lot of trade via Kamadan, but they’re a naval power because of their navy – their actual military force that wiped the proverbial floor of the greatest pirate fleet led by Lady Glaive.

I also fail to see where Melandru comes in. Also, please provide a source saying Elona’s ecosystem is dead. Yes, Jokokittenthe Elona but that doesn’t mean he can open floodgates to let a smaller river through. Similarly, Istan was 100% uninfluenced by the Elon, as was the coast of Kourna. It was only Vabbi and inland Kourna that depended on the Elon’s flow and thus it’s only that ecosystem – part of which only existed thanks to Varesh daming the Elon – was destroyed. Not all of Elona’s.

If the Whisper’s globe is anything to go by, then Istan isn’t sunk. In fact, the angle in which it is would actually have the tsunami going past Elona, not clashing upon it. Some of Istan probably got hit, but I doubt the whole was.

No, the Cantha we saw in GW1 was being hit by Shiro. His previous attack was 200 years prior, which had already been recovered from except for the excessive population.

Also, you go to say that Cantha will become better because they have more wood but… earlier you said Istan’s source of wood didn’t matter. Contradicting much?

And again, I never argued against a Canthan expansion. And being a fan of tengu, I’m thinking we’ll get them before a Canthan expansion because, quite frankly, they have little to do with Cantha in its modern day anymore (and they’re not Aztec at all – don’t know where you get that from either).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t say 2 weeks sailing – or “a few hundred miles” is “far from Tyria” per say.

I wouldn’t say it’s only a couple of weeks sailing considering the size of the globe, I mean it takes months just to walk across Tyria, and you can visually see how large it is in game, now put that in a world perspective.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Legion: No one said they didn’t have pirate problems for 600 years. In fact, I believe it’s stated when pirates became a problem in Cantha in An Empire Divided – and yes, just checked, it does. Pirates became a problem in 872 AE, becoming known as the Crimson Skull and still an issue in 1072 AE (200 years later). Along with this, we have mention of pirates 100 years prior to that (merely a “300 years ago” via Kitah’s monument in Tahnnakai Temple). So prior to GW1, they had pirate problems for 300 years. If they were a naval powerhouse like you claim, I doubt they’d have such issues – especially with 2 of 3 Shing Jea Island ports being commandeered by said pirates in GW1.

Just because you are a naval power doesn’t mean you’re not going to have problems with pirates, I mean just look at England back in the day of sailing ships. Not to mention the Pirates wouldn’t keep coming back if you didn’t have anything of value, and the only reason they keep battling is because they haven’t won yet. Pirates are infinite, they will always exist and always keep growing in numbers, which is why I could see why they would keep attacking somewhere with lots of wealth. Yet Cantha keeps thwarting them, and for holding them at bay for so long they have had to pick up ways of dealing with them, I mean if there are that many pirates at there ports, they had to develop a way to get all of their trading vessels through them, and that doesn’t happen by going “Oh excuse me Mr. Pirate, we just need to get out across the sea with all of this merchandise so we can make more money to fight you here, you don’t mind letting us go right? Thank you so much sir.”

Servek, my source for two weeks sailing is this: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/War_Chronicles#June_29th_-_Scribe_Returns_from_Involuntary_Overseas_Journey

Mind you it’s an in-lore excuse for a two-week silence of the scribe during the War in Kryta’s steady release, but "the winds favored us and we arrived back in Tyria in a week’s time. " So under favorable conditions, it takes about a week to go from Cantha to Tyria (saying 2 weeks was a bit of an misremember from it being a 2-3 week break).

But on a more exact distance, you have this: “Though only a few hundred miles away from Tyria” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided A “few hundred” means more than 200 but not enough to dictate the use of “several” which would typically mean 200-500 mile distance. Which isn’t that large, truth be told.

As to your second post… I’m not sure what you’re arguing – that they are, or are not a naval power? And combating pirates can be done by more means and methods than having naval power (though I’m certain Cantha has usable ships for naval warfare, it seems they prefer land battles, though this may be due to GW1 mechanics).

I have learned to never trust distances provided by a writter of fiction, ever. If that is the real distance between Cantha and Tyria is a hundred-miles, the size of the entire world of Tyria is smaller than the continent of Europe. In fact, smaller than a country like France. Also take into account that the world of Gw was less defined in GW1 than we have today.

So by your argument, we cannot trust a single thing in the game… to be the case of the game’s lore. As the entire game is made (or “provided”) by a writer of fiction.

Mind you, I’m sure that given the current globe that the distance will be large and given the excuse of An Empire Divide being pre-Factions-release lore and/or Ermenred being incorrect (since it’s written from an in-universe standpoint).

Strawman argument. The distance between London and Paris is 211 hundred miles. This is not uncommon among writers. Few writers have notions of geography and numbers are less important. A lot of writers went to study literature because they were just horrible at mathematics and chose this job to never see a number again. J. K. Rowling for example, is notorious for this and herself admits it. Even scifi writers are vulnerable to this since most writers just don’t have a real sense of scale. These numbers are just there to provide a feeling, not a realistic description of the world because few writers are equipped with all the necessary knowledge, or even time, to describe a realistic portrait of their settings in all the areas of economy, science, politics, technology, industry, weather, military, geography etc, etc, etc. Also, using modern miles in a fantasy settings is rather anachronistic.

It was for them being a navel power, shorter version: The fact that the pirates never completely took over, and that in order to trade they needed to be able to deal with pirates at sea means they had to have some skill at commanding the waves and using them to fight.

But why would pirates want to take over? If you’re a hunter, you don’t want to kill all your prey, nor do you want them to flee your hunting grounds (because it becomes a hassle to find new ones). You want to manage your hunting so that your hunting grounds remain plentiful enough for you, while allowing you to continuously hunt. You’re not going to go into the forest, clear it down, and build a house on top of it.

Same concept with outlaws and their targets. They want people to use the same known routes, just as they want to keep a low profile so as to avoid too much law enforcement and, worse, your prey going elsewhere. If the pirates took control of all the docks, then the merchants will just find or make other docks and you start all over.

This is in fact the most likely reason why we’re able to go after the leader of the Crimson Skull in Factions – they became so bold that the Imperial army had to take force and they had taken docks so that their location became more well known and an actual assault on their home base was possible.

Whether the Imperial army had no navy or an armada capable of ruling the entire world with an iron fist is irrelevant to the fact that pirates would not want to, as you put it, “completely take over.”