LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

It’s just been weighing on my mind lately, especially with Taimi being introduced. Not necessarily that there is an actual physical or metaphysical connection between those events, just a narrative allegorical thing.

Scarlet, of course, is Abaddon in this story. Crazy, ambitious, and enough of a threat to require the other “gods” band together to bring her down. The leylines are probably the equivalent of the bloodstone in this telling (which is odd, since they’re actually probably more powerful, not less). The madness and the thorns and such recall the Realm of Torment somewhat, thematically.

Braham is Balthazar — he’s a Guardian, which means he’s a virtuous warrior who likes to light things on (holy) fire.

Rox is Melandru — she’s a Ranger (associated with Melandru, at least in GW1), and is a miner (Earth element). Also, named Rox (“Rocks”) in case the Earth thing wasn’t obvious enough.

Kasmeer/Delaqua are Lyssa. Illusion, Water (“Del Aqua”), Beauty, two females, etc.

Taimi is probably Dwayna. Remember that, in GW1, the legs of Dwayna’s statues were always shattered, and the statue was held aloft by air magic.

That leaves Grenth, who is probably Canach, what with his turn toward the dark and brooding and such. Still, he needs an ice theme to really make it work. Scarlet doesn’t really have any ice alliance, so maybe it’s still in the works.

Thoughts?

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

I mean i feel like you’re grasping at straws with this… but it does sorta fit… then again most things like this can fit if you look at it hard enough.

They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: moomooo.9357

moomooo.9357

I think it’s not entirely a brand new trope, Scarlet likely being the “villain being manipulated by another villain”. I think you’ve managed to squeeze the characters into certain perceptions(but I really liked the Lyssa idea) which aren’t entirely true.

It’s a neat coincidence though

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Posted by: Jamais vu.5284

Jamais vu.5284

This might just be crazy enough to work
Hire this man ANet

As for the idea itself, Grenth would be either the player character because he has by far the highest murder count in the whole GW universe, or Scarlet once she joins Destiny’s Edge 2.0 as the brooding anti-hero cast.

(edited by Jamais vu.5284)

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Posted by: Thalador.4218

Thalador.4218

This might just be crazy enough to work
Hire this man ANet

As for the idea itself, Grenth would be either the player character because he has by far the highest murder count in the whole GW universe, or Scarlet once she joins Destiny’s Edge 2.0 as the brooding anti-hero cast.

Nah… his idea is not crazy enough and is way over the low-tier “epicness” they are willing to allow their writers.

Perilisk, Canach fits Grenth perfectly as per his latest actions: he could’ve broken out of the prison (escaped judgment, one of Grenth’s core values), but he didn’t. What’s more, he decided that he would answer for his crimes and if allowed, atone for them. Also, he’s been on the path of righteousness once – a way of life many of Grenth’s worshipers adhere to. So yeah, the Grenth – Canach parallel definitely works… especially when we add that he kills his enemies with extreme prejudice.

Scarlet’s Alliance Wars (a.k.a. “Guild Wars 2”)
A fantasy of sci-fi cyborg implants grafted into the desiccated flesh of Guild Wars’ corpse.

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

I think it’s not entirely a brand new trope, Scarlet likely being the “villain being manipulated by another villain”. I think you’ve managed to squeeze the characters into certain perceptions(but I really liked the Lyssa idea) which aren’t entirely true.

It’s a neat coincidence though

I don’t know that it requires a villain behind the villain. There was no one that drove Abaddon insane, and he was already bad. He just got stuck for what seemed like forever in a prison filled with nothing but his own thoughts, and the evil he took in, his own evil, is what made him that way. Ceara wasn’t exactly an angel even before Omadd’s experiment.

So, that would sort of fit, even if she got the order wrong (first wage war against TPTB, then be driven insane in a prison of thought, then transform the world in the image of your insanity, silly salad).

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

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Posted by: Tobias Trueflight.8350

Tobias Trueflight.8350

Scarlet, of course, is Abaddon in this story. Crazy, ambitious, and enough of a threat to require the other “gods” band together to bring her down. The leylines are probably the equivalent of the bloodstone in this telling (which is odd, since they’re actually probably more powerful, not less). The madness and the thorns and such recall the Realm of Torment somewhat, thematically.

They do? And you’re either forgetting or misremembering why Abaddon was piled on by the other five gods – he didn’t agree with their treatment of magic. They didn’t like how he had given it to the mortal races.

Also, Abaddon was originally the god of water and secrets.

Braham is Balthazar — he’s a Guardian, which means he’s a virtuous warrior who likes to light things on (holy) fire.

But he doesn’t do the whole fire thing, he settles for bubble shields and mace hits. This doesn’t fit as properly as is evident.

Rox is Melandru — she’s a Ranger (associated with Melandru, at least in GW1), and is a miner (Earth element). Also, named Rox (“Rocks”) in case the Earth thing wasn’t obvious enough.

Rox Pickheart, originally. She’s a ranger but seems more of the original type in execution than rangers are now. (Uses a bow and pet, as well as Healing Spring.) But she’s not exactly in tune with nature, just earth in general. And not quite in the same way as Melandru seemed to care – she was a miner and the only survivor of an accident. There’s no special connection there, it’s just where she wound up.

Also, apparently she’s now “Rox Whetstone” provisionally. I hope that means she starts using “Sharpening Stone”

Kasmeer/Delaqua are Lyssa. Illusion, Water (“Del Aqua”), Beauty, two females, etc.

Ilya and Lyss, not “Lyssa” exatly. Twins who share one divine purpose. The focus is less on beauty and more on illusion and grace. Water isn’t her original affinity, but “chaos magic” is supposed to be more a part of it.

Taimi is probably Dwayna. Remember that, in GW1, the legs of Dwayna’s statues were always shattered, and the statue was held aloft by air magic.

Always shattered? You’re forgetting something which was different. I think the statues are always shattered because of Malchor breaking statues he didn’t like the form of while trying to finish. So those broken statues are the template for the others. But that’s a topic for a different place . . .

Taimi doesn’t mesh with the rest of Dwayna’s focus, the whole leg thing is all there is. It’s too much of a stretch.

That leaves Grenth, who is probably Canach, what with his turn toward the dark and brooding and such. Still, he needs an ice theme to really make it work. Scarlet doesn’t really have any ice alliance, so maybe it’s still in the works.

Marjory is better, being a necromancer who at least at one point talked with and helped settle spirits of the dead so they could pass on. Canach would better suit Melandru for his affinity and talent for working with plants.

All in all, it doesn’t fit too well, but it should also be noted there’s an archetype regarding the Fall of Abaddon which has been used in myths before. One godly being who steps out of line for non-selfish reasons only to be struck down by their peers? It’s also a somewhat common thing of a mortal being who looked too closely into things they were not meant to know going mad over it . . .

I think H.P. Lovecraft’s expanded mythos covers that base rather well. By the way, if we don’t have some terrible and horrible Thing from the Mists I’m going to be disappointed.

Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

I mean i feel like you’re grasping at straws with this… but it does sorta fit… then again most things like this can fit if you look at it hard enough.

It’s called the texas sharpshooter fallacy.
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/09/11/the-texas-sharpshooter-fallacy/

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: Tobias Trueflight.8350

Tobias Trueflight.8350

I mean i feel like you’re grasping at straws with this… but it does sorta fit… then again most things like this can fit if you look at it hard enough.

It’s called the texas sharpshooter fallacy.
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/09/11/the-texas-sharpshooter-fallacy/

. . . and this suddenly applies to a lot of things ’round here

But saved this link with some other useful ones.

Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I mean i feel like you’re grasping at straws with this… but it does sorta fit… then again most things like this can fit if you look at it hard enough.

This is my response, pretty much.

And there’s one fatal flaw:

Abaddon was a member of the six who did an action all six agreed with. When others asked to take back the action, Abaddon disagreed and thanks to Margonite fanaticism and the Forgotten waging war on Abaddon’s followers (the Margonites), Abaddon – and later the other gods – fell into the war.

Scarlet was never an ally to the biconics, and they aren’t going to “war” because the others revoked something that Scarlet refused to take something back, nor is their followers/armies/whatever waging war which draws the biconics/Scarlet into the conflict.

Furthermore, Scarlet’s supposedly after the ley lines, while Abaddon was not after the Bloodstone (supposedly).

There are some parallels, but there are even more differences.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: Mortifact.3102

Mortifact.3102

I wonder why it is that people always want to apply the 6 gods onto everything! Plus you forgot Kormir! (though I don’t blame you for that).

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

Marjory is better, being a necromancer who at least at one point talked with and helped settle spirits of the dead so they could pass on. Canach would better suit Melandru for his affinity and talent for working with plants.

But where would that leave Rox?

Of course, that assumes that Canach is going to be redeemed.

But the other parallels are between Scarlet’s and Abaddon’s armies. They’re sort of clear between Margonites and Aetherblades (seafarers + magic/magictech), and Demons and Watchwork (imprinting her madness on metal rather than mist, as she’s an engineer, not a god). The others are more iffy, Titans and MA (earth and flame), Afflicted and TA (spreading plague/toxin), but you could make the argument at least.

Scarlet already has one surviving Lieutenant who plays the role of assassin. Maybe she needs a scholar, a betrayer, an “accidental” bringer of calamity. Maybe the monsters that plague Kryta from beneath the sea actually answer to him. Maybe he goes from normal looking to dark and spooky. Maybe he gets an artifact connected to the army of flame and earth.

Yeah, it’s quite the stretch, and I still expect that Canach is due for a stint on Team Good Guy, but if not? It means that Scarlet still has a key player positioned right in the heart of Lion’s Arch. Maybe he didn’t escape with Mai because it wasn’t part of the plan, because it helps him earn some trust and sympathy. Really, he can probably leave whenever he wants (adventure game logic: use magic lava gauntlets on metal bars).

I think H.P. Lovecraft’s expanded mythos covers that base rather well. By the way, if we don’t have some terrible and horrible Thing from the Mists I’m going to be disappointed.

Outside the world we know, other dimensions exist, realms beyond what we can see and experience. Civilized humans know that when they die, their souls pass on into the Mists, the realm of the afterlife. Some spirits linger in this world, or find ways to walk back into the realm of flesh…yet there are other creatures who watch them and wait, drawn to the energy of countless souls.

Sometimes souls are not enough. In dimensions alien to the physical world, sentient entities scheme of ways to enter the realm of flesh, dreaming of the havoc they can wreak. Just as ghosts can defy death by returning to the land of the living, demons find ways into our world, where they feast on suffering, despair, and the vital energy of intelligent creatures.

Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power. Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, bestial abominations, or radically inhuman horrors, they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization. As they are not native to the real world, demons hold an abiding hatred of its denizens. They are also ruthlessly intelligent, more than willing to enter into arrangements that allow them to routinely prey on humans and other foolish living creatures.

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

But the other parallels are between Scarlet’s and Abaddon’s armies. They’re sort of clear between Margonites and Aetherblades (seafarers + magic/magictech), and Demons and Watchwork (imprinting her madness on metal rather than mist, as she’s an engineer, not a god). The others are more iffy, Titans and MA (earth and flame), Afflicted and TA (spreading plague/toxin), but you could make the argument at least.

In the OP, you’re referring to Abaddon’s Fall, not his death. Abaddon had no dealings with titans or demons until after his Fall – after he was imprisoned in the Realm of Torment for at least 800 years. The Afflicted weren’t even his intention or doing, but Shiro’s. At least as far as we know. And besides, the demons and titans are, in fact, Dhuum’s creations and army, not Abaddon’s.

Abaddon has Margonites (transformed humans); Menzies has the Shadow Army (dark spirits it seems); Dhuum has demons (be they made from the Mists like torment demons, or made from rituals around tortured spirits like titans)

Also, Aetherblades aren’t seafaring so that comparison to the Margonites kind of falters.

Oh, and the titans weren’t just “earth and flame” they were “tormented spirits that create a body out of the land itself.” The body could be made of fire, stone, plant, ice, or even flesh.

Scarlet already has one surviving Lieutenant who plays the role of assassin. Maybe she needs a scholar, a betrayer, an “accidental” bringer of calamity. Maybe the monsters that plague Kryta from beneath the sea actually answer to him. Maybe he goes from normal looking to dark and spooky. Maybe he gets an artifact connected to the army of flame and earth.

You’re working on pure unsupported suggestions just to try and make the parallels, when your entire argument began with “the two are perfect parallels now!”

And you’re beginning to mix the “Fall of Abaddon” with the “death of Abaddon”.

Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power.

Protomatter* Nothing points to the Mists being ether in any form.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

LS S1: Retelling of the Fall of Abaddon?

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Posted by: moomooo.9357

moomooo.9357

I think it’s not entirely a brand new trope, Scarlet likely being the “villain being manipulated by another villain”. I think you’ve managed to squeeze the characters into certain perceptions(but I really liked the Lyssa idea) which aren’t entirely true.

It’s a neat coincidence though

I don’t know that it requires a villain behind the villain. There was no one that drove Abaddon insane, and he was already bad. He just got stuck for what seemed like forever in a prison filled with nothing but his own thoughts, and the evil he took in, his own evil, is what made him that way. Ceara wasn’t exactly an angel even before Omadd’s experiment.

So, that would sort of fit, even if she got the order wrong (first wage war against TPTB, then be driven insane in a prison of thought, then transform the world in the image of your insanity, silly salad).

Oh, I meant that Abaddon was the villain behind the villain He was behind Shiro and the Lich. So they’d play a similar role as Scarlet :P

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Posted by: perilisk.1874

perilisk.1874

In the OP, you’re referring to Abaddon’s Fall, not his death. Abaddon had no dealings with titans or demons until after his Fall – after he was imprisoned in the Realm of Torment for at least 800 years.

He also wasn’t the mad, tormented being we fought in Nightfall. I think you’re looking at it too strictly, I’m just suggesting there are deliberate parallels between the characters and events, and Abaddon’s character arc is about his war and fall, his descent into madness, and his return.

I guess you could argue that Ceara’s “fall” was in rejecting the pale tree and choosing to set herself against it, and the current arc is more a parallel for the events of GW1. In which case, change the subject to “A retelling of Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall”, if you prefer.

The Afflicted weren’t even his intention or doing, but Shiro’s. At least as far as we know. And besides, the demons and titans are, in fact, Dhuum’s creations and army, not Abaddon’s.

Khilbron gained power over the Titans using the Scepter of Orr, and Khilbron answers to Abaddon. Same argument for the Afflicted and Shiro’ken.

I didn’t get the impression that demons belonged to anyone specifically, they’re just born out of the Mists. The demons specific to the Realm of Torment seem to serve Abaddon, however.

Also, Aetherblades aren’t seafaring so that comparison to the Margonites kind of falters.

Nor were Nightfall’s Margonites, strictly speaking. But they have a seafaring backstory. Same for the pirates.

Oh, and the titans weren’t just “earth and flame” they were “tormented spirits that create a body out of the land itself.” The body could be made of fire, stone, plant, ice, or even flesh.

I’m aware. Still, they were primarily (and solely, back when all we had was Prophecies) lava monsters.

You’re working on pure unsupported suggestions just to try and make the parallels, when your entire argument began with “the two are perfect parallels now!”

The most useful theories are ones you can use to make predictions. That said, I still favor Canach as Grenth and Marjory/Kasmeer as Lyssa, I just think Canach as Khilbron and Marjory as Grenth is workable.

I certainly never said there are perfect parallels, just that there are enough that I think it’s deliberate on the part of the writers, and not just a coincidence.

Protomatter* Nothing points to the Mists being ether in any form.

Don’t blame me, blame anet. That text is straight outta the manual.

ftp://ftp.guildwars.com/downloads/gwn-manual-en.pdf

Ceterum censeo Sentim Punicam esse delendam