Guild Wars 2

Place to discuss the patch on a more open field.

My thoughts

- Taimi is in the school again? She jumps back and forth from Rata Sum very quickly. I will from this day on accept no “It takes too much time to go from point A to point B” excuse.

- Majory asks how an Egg can help them defeat Mordremoth and the PC says she has to trust her, even though he knows not much more than her? Really?

(- My character turned blue in the absent of ligh with the pale tree. Looks cool and now I got a song in my head. They should fix the power outage, though. It`s not affecting the rest of the tree, so why here?)

- Why are all people so nonchalant about the whole matter? How am I supposed to take this thing seriously when they turn from scared about the future in a simple conversation… urgh… (comment on the pale tree`s reaction that Caithe has the Egg)

- How do memory seeds work? Apearently just having one does allow you to access the memories, but they are apearently not coded to a person. Are they like USB-Sticks? Are there specific memory seeds? You know.. you did not specify them… for all I know I can access all Sylvarie with the seeds… Can I see someone else if I want? How about crazy Scarlet?

- Wait.. they work on my intent? Well, of to Scarlet then, looking into her mind before she was crazy or so… Or do we have any other interesting Sylvari? Maybe Trahearn… nah..

- Voiceacting +1

- Sylvari gone wild.

- Young Scarlet… well there she is…

- I like the sight of an undeveloped Grove. It looks nice and peaceful

- So Caithes wild hunt is bound to dragons? Should she even know what a dragon is?

- Uhhh something that brings power over sylvari? Intruiging…

- Majory, young sword wielder and our recap-story-device (she looks good in black/red, though)

- Majory: “i hold your back” and does not fight….

- Faolain just wants to be loved by mummy…

- and here comes the Metal Gear Solid Reference +1

- I want Caithe`s Reverse Blossom

- Cruel experiments and Canach.

- Sylvary Batteries… Who would have thought… Well they do photosynthesis…

- Vorpp… guess the hate he got on the forums but him there… nasty little prick

- Okay, the Firstborn have clothes, okay, but they are few… How come that the shadow Bulwark have armor? How did that happen, if they were just talking about how they wanted to train them as wardens or fighters? that implied they were not ready…

- Faolain is racist, selfish… and has no patience… the whole thing is rushed and doesn`t sit right with me. Nope… I cannot really feel her, too cliché

- Wait? That`s it? Cliffhanger? Again? Hello, the Season is almost over. You want to tell me that the grand finale will be Caithe? Seriously? You gotta be kidding me.

Conclusion
Seeds of Truth is a nice piece of background information on Caithe and puts in some nice fanservice for all Sylvary fans out there.
Overall however it does not tell us a lot new, but it is nice to get some confirmations on some speculations.
Caithe`s Secret is still a Mystery, though the “power to control sylvary” thingy, sounds intuiging. Could that be it?

Faolain was lame… seriously, that could have been done much better.
If we are already doing flashbacks, to pieces of Caithes places she holds dear, then i did not expect *One Singular Event) (mostly)

How about how she met Faolian. How they fell in love? How about some graduate turning of her character to that unlikeable kitten she is now.

This was.. not good. Caithe was too naive, even though she was pushed into a leader position. She was nothing but a tool for Faolain.

Overall it was not bad, but it felt way too short…

I loved the first instance, and the second was interesting mechanically (not to mention made me feel like I had an obligation to shoot Vorpp…), but overall? This feels like another cliffhanger just to manufacture some suspense. I don’t feel hooked. I don’t feel entranced or excited about what might happen next. I feel angry that we’re advancing through the narrative in stutterstep.

Also, on the Vorpp thing… does anyone else think it’s weird how everyone but Faolain seems to have played down the decision? The guy tortured and massacred at least a dozen young, naive sylvari- essentially killing children- seemingly to the extent that he blew up their cages when it was clear he had lost, even though he seemed to know they were intelligent beings that could experience pain… and Canach just treats it like something instructive, our character shrugs it off pretty quickly, and the quest summary doesn’t even mention that people died. I know that Anet has had issues in the past capturing how serious death can be, but this is a new low.

I was a bit annoyed with the Pale Tree. Secrets for the sake of secrets (in the story). We have a chance to find out something about the egg and she conveniently passes out before telling us anything. I don’t care if she dies, she has been annoyingly cryptic. She also had memory seed magic that would have been really useful last year while trying to track down another sylvari.

I was super excited to see the world of the Firstborn. Playing as Caithe and seeing Faolain before the Nightmare – and Trahearne (he did seem a bit dull, I was hoping one of the others would be more of a leader to flesh out sylvari personalities). One new Firstborn (named after a wiki admin as far as I can tell) which I believe leaves us with two unknown. It seemed wierd that Caithe used some kind of metal dagger in her early days but swapped to T1 cultural plant dagger in modern days. I would have expected it to be the other way around.

I won’t lie, I was incredibly disappointed with the continuation of the two years until Secondborn retcon. The Firstborn seems significantly less relevant as the first of their species – two years is almost nothing. It kind of breaks my heart that the Firstborn were reduced to something so trivial compared to the “Secondborn” or “newly awakened”, because of Scarlet. I hope Ceara’s appearance was simply a cameo and not some kind of recognition of her being an important part of sylvari culture in the early years of the Secondborn – she was never referenced in game until 2013 and doesn’t deserve to be on the historical mantle along with Cadeyrn. The idea that the Firstborn are special is significantly weakened (imo) by them only having two years on the second generation. You can accomplish so much more in seven years (and the bond of loneliness or family between the Firstborn would be much stronger in that time). It’s hard to view them as deserving of (or even believably holding) some prestigious mantle in sylvari society now.

It’s interesting to see the early steps towards the Nightmare Court. The focus is very much on Faolain and Cadeyrn but the story from before launch involved more of the Firstborn iirc (specifically Niamh I believe).

I find it really strange that Wynne was the one to go to the Maguuma Wastes when it’s stated in the Personal Story that Aife did so. Obviously they can both go (seeing as Faolain and Caithe also went) but the statement that Aife went to the Maguuma wastes seems almost meaningless now that three other Firstborn have done so (possibly even before her).

Several sylvari killing a centaur tribe so close to the Dry Top tribe seems like it would be unlikely that the Dry Top tribe wouldn’t hear about that (specifically the sylvari – seeing as Wynne had been going there for a while, centaur don’t look like they stay in one place much). It’s also strange that the Dry Top tribe claims coincidence with Ventari’s teachings and history whereas the Silverwastes tribe is outright stated to be related to him and Wynne is working with them to explore Ventari’s teachings. I hope this simply means the Dry Top tribe are liars.

Did we get another retcon with the first sylvari to die? I thought Riannoc was the first to die and when he died all other sylvari felt it. This instance claimed that they had gone so long without a death and already three secondborn had died, Caithe mentioning “we now know we can die” or something along those lines. Caithe mentions in the Bramble Walls personal story that Riannoc was the first sylvari to meet death.

Marjory was pointless in this release. Maybe she’s a necessary tool to drive things forward, it just felt out of place for me.

I wasn’t happy with the end of the release. Using three memory seeds and holding back the fourth feels cheap to me. Again we end with more mysteries than answers. Not only do we not know what the Master of Peace was doing with the egg, we still don’t know what Caithe is doing with it and now we don’t know what Wynne was doing with it. More mysteries and only one release left. So much of this feels like season 1 – all season long we knew Scarlet was doing something we just didn’t know what. Mystery for the sake of mystery.

This release was a mixed bag imo. I liked playing as Caithe, I like seeing the history of GW2. I have mixed feelings about the expansion of the sylvari lore and I’m not a fan of “it’s a mystery” being used constantly.

i also think it was ok but too short,they could tell us more about caithe and faolain and develop the relationship between them little more.
i think Caithe`s Secret is wynne, she is going to kill wynne for faolain, she committed MURDERER.

Huh. Missed that stumble on the first to die thing. That’s the second time Riannoc’s timeline has caused a significant snarl in the sylvari’s as a whole.

In defense of Aife, she never made it out like going into the Wastes was a big deal. She just recited it along with a list of examples to prove she was well traveled. It is weird with some of the early S2 stuff, however, where the Seraph and Durmand Priory both make it out like nobody’s known a way into the Wastes before Mordremoth broke open a pass.

I honestly wasn’t so disappointed in the game since Mordremoth magically became known by name by everyone and their dog.

Partially because I don’t care much for sylvari, partially because the Faolain/Caithe lesson on dysfunctional and abusive relationship for dummies was annoying, but mostly because when the final boss centaur showed up I realized that this instance is just a pointless filler and we won’t learn a darn thing, or even push the story forward 1 centimeter.

I would honestly forgive the retcons of sylvari lore (as I said, don’t care for them at all) and rushed feel of the update if only it actually was there. It wasn’t. It seemed like the only reason we even got any “story” was because ANet felt that just giving us the jp and pvp update was not enough, so they quickly put together two instances without any connection and disguised them as “Caithes memories”. I mean bloody hell, when you substract combat and exposition the update was not much longer than the trailer!

I liked Caithe’s daggers however, so overall I rate the story 1/10.

PS, I agree with Saye, I think the “secret” is that Caithe killed Wynne, or helped Faolain do it, or most likely sinned by standing by and not preventing it.

In final words – I’d rather we get no story, or get few short stories without much connection that this rubbish. The only reason why this story is worht playing at all for me, is to do achievements after, I want my 10k chest.

Well, I liked it. As you’ve pointed out; it’s a “filler patch” for some background story on Caithe. And I think it did well at that. Many players haven’t read the books, or knows of the asuran experiments, but now: this story is presented within the game. Well done!

Personally, I would have loved to see more depth added to Faolain, but Caithe is the focus here – and there is limitations of how much backstory you can put in between the main plot parts. So all in all, I think ANet did a good job in balancing that line.

I really think the patch deserves more positive feedback than what’s been given so far!

For a filler patch, I agree, it would be good, but we’re past the point where we should be having filler patches. Next patch is the Season 2 finale, and the lead up to that has been two tiny steps forward in a row. It doesn’t exactly engender confidence.

All they needed to do was let me at least try to get in but nope gotta wait for the next two weeks.

I’m beginning to think I should just stop playing the Living story till everything has been released so i can play everything in one fell swoop. It would definitely be more rewarding.

Episode felt short. Every episode has been a cliffhanger and has been about bringing up more questions, not answering old ones. We’re past the opening act, you’re not supposed to be opening new plot holes at this point. It’s time to stop putting out bridge episodes and start getting to the meat of the plot.

The Cons

• Annoyed that this is yet another filler episode in story steps. At least this felt longer than before, there wasn’t a “just talk” or “very short boss-fight only” instance like the first two of three in E6.
• I agree that the Pale Tree’s non-chalantness was bothersome.
• The Memory Seeds feel like a dues ex. If such things existed then why was Riannoc’s death such a mystery? Why did we have to use a dangerous ritual from the Crystal Desert to discern his fate?
• Annoyed that the PS claims that the centaurs turned hostile on Caithe and Faolain when it was clear that Faolain had instigated them just by her personality. I suppose the point, however, was that the instigation happened while Caithe wasn’t looking (if you go in with another person, you can avoid being the instance owner and thus watch Faolain instigate the centaurs – as I did – but the instance owner is stuck out of sight of it – annoying but also cool). Felt like unnecessary defense of an obvious in-the-fault character.
• The biggest issue to me, however, is Malomedies’ dialogue at the Gathering.

We went so long without losing one of our own, but three of our newly awakened have been killed already. This is unacceptable.
→ This is life, Malomedies. At least now we know that we can die.
I worry about Riannoc. He’s going so far from home. What if he never returns?
→ Many will leave the Grove before all is said and done. We cannot stop them.

Where’s the issue in this?

1. Riannoc was the firs sylvari to die.
2. “We all felt it when he died. It was like a part of the Dream was torn away—but we never knew why. Or how.” – Caithe’s words at the end of Bramble Walls and Sharpened Thorns (second step of chapter 3 for sylvarI)
3. “When he died—the sun dimmed, and the Dream wept.” – Avatar of the Tree’s mention of Riannoc’s death, again the Dream was affected greatly by Riannoc’s death. Said in same two story instances as above
4. THE MOST GLARING ISSUE IN THIS:
   [quote]They gathered by the Pale Tree, and rain swelled upon her upturned leaves, dripping in slow sparks to the earth below. Her roots cradled the firstborn that lay among them, his body covered in a dark blanket like moss over a grave. Malomedies was only sleeping, struggling against exhausting nightmares. From time to time, he called out, and Kahedins soothed him, placing a damp compress to his forehead in the hope that he would find rest. The healer looked up to the others, face filled with worry.

“Will he survive? Or will he…die? As Riannoc did?” The question whispered in every heart, but it was Niamh that gave it voice.

“The Mother says he will live,” Kahedins murmured, but it was little comfort.

Malomedies had been beautiful, as graceful as a willow kneeling by a stream. Now his face bore the carved scars of ill-treatment, and the branches of his once- iridescent hair had been broken and pruned into splintered, colorless pieces. One leg was withered as if kept too long from the sun, and where his fleshlike bark still clung to the vines of his torso, there were a thousand small holes.

“We must kill them all.” Cadeyrn’s eyes flashed dark gold, and his hand clenched around the hilt of his sword. [/quote]
THEY KNEW RIANNOC DIED BEFORE MALOMEDIES WAS EXPERIMENTED ON. THE STORY INSTANCE OUTRIGHT TALKS ABOUT MALOMEDIES BEING EXPERIMENTED ON. Riannoc died – and was known to be dead well before this story instance.

Come on, this is not hard to keep together.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I loved the first instance, and the second was interesting mechanically (not to mention made me feel like I had an obligation to shoot Vorpp…), but overall? This feels like another cliffhanger just to manufacture some suspense. I don’t feel hooked. I don’t feel entranced or excited about what might happen next. I feel angry that we’re advancing through the narrative in stutterstep.

Also this.

The Pros

• I LOVED finally seeing the dark past of asura and sylvari interaction. Even Malomedies being experimented upon was only barely touched upon in the game, and only for Night sylvari in the PS as far as I know.
• Fiana! We see “a dead secondborn!”:
• Trahearne talks about sylvari having free will. Proof they’re not dragon minions for dragon minions hold no free will! hah!
• Interesting lore hint on the ‘energy’ within sylvari.
• The jumping puzzle is just omg <3 – I can forgive the filler-ness because of this jumping puzzle. But really, enough fillers…

I still don’t see any REAL process against Mordremoth.

No kidding, the second part of the season was way off the track. It didn’t answer the vision after 3/4 parts. We did very little against the dragon other than found a giant flower(part of the dragon) and fight over a little egg, which we don’t even know how does it help us fight Mordremoth.

Jaken.6801:

Okay, the Firstborn have clothes, okay, but they are few… How come that the shadow Bulwark have armor? How did that happen, if they were just talking about how they wanted to train them as wardens or fighters? that implied they were not ready…

Some time took place between the second and third flashback, I thought. Caithe talked a lot about there having been so much effort in showing up. But yeah, it did seem like an odd switch. But seeing the first generation of Nightmare Courtiers was interesting.

Jaken.6801:

Wait? That`s it? Cliffhanger? Again? Hello, the Season is almost over. You want to tell me that the grand finale will be Caithe? Seriously? You gotta be kidding me.

Killing a member of Destiny’s Edge as the grand finale? Eh… could be worse. Could be Scarlet again.

But that’d be annoying if the grand finale is a second female sylvari…

Jaken.6801:

Faolain was lame… seriously, that could have been done much better.
If we are already doing flashbacks, to pieces of Caithes places she holds dear, then i did not expect *One Singular Event) (mostly)

How about how she met Faolian. How they fell in love? How about some graduate turning of her character to that unlikeable kitten she is now.

This was.. not good. Caithe was too naive, even though she was pushed into a leader position. She was nothing but a tool for Faolain.

I think that’s half the point.

Faolain was manipulative even from the beginning, and Caithe began naive just like others of her race. She trusted Faolain just like how Riannoc trusted Wayne. Both of the later betrayed the former.

The reason they all focus on one event is… probably because they didn’t want to sidetrack us with unrelated subjects (a complaint of Season 1’s back and forth nature).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Also, on the Vorpp thing… does anyone else think it’s weird how everyone but Faolain seems to have played down the decision?

I was pretty sure that Canach wanted to kill Vorpp too, and while Caithe was not as aggressive about it, she threatened him, tried t The guy tortured and massacred at least a dozen young, naive sylvari- essentially killing children- seemingly to the extent that he blew up their cages when it was clear he had lost, even though he seemed to know they were intelligent beings that could experience pain… and Canach just treats it like something instructive, our character shrugs it off pretty quickly, and the quest summary doesn’t even mention that people died. I know that Anet has had issues in the past capturing how serious death can be, but this is a new low. [/quote]I was pretty sure that Canach wanted to kill Vorpp too, and while Caithe was not as aggressive about it, she threatened him, tried to kill him, etc. too before he ran.

I don’t think the PC shrugged it off – they didn’t want to talk about it to Marjory.

But yeah, the summary is a bit silly.

Shiren.9532:

So much of this feels like season 1 – all season long we knew Scarlet was doing something we just didn’t know what. Mystery for the sake of mystery.

This release was a mixed bag imo. I liked playing as Caithe, I like seeing the history of GW2. I have mixed feelings about the expansion of the sylvari lore and I’m not a fan of “it’s a mystery” being used constantly.

QFT

It should be explained WHY the egg is important before let us do it. The whole battle made little process against the dragon at all.

saye.9304:

i think Caithe`s Secret is wynne, she is going to kill wynne for faolain, she committed MURDERER.

Nice thought, but I’m doubtful.

Scarlet hinted that Faolain didn’t know – and that even the Pale Tree may not know.

Sounds to me that Caithe found out Wynne’s secret, but Faolain failed to.

The question is, what is that secret? Most likely the cave of seeds that Ronan found.

Final note:
Episode 8 better be even bigger than Episode 5, with these two small filler episodes. And I mean story steps quantity that are on par to Chapter 8 of the Personal Story (pre or post feature batch kitten-up) – meaning either double or triple the standard story step amount e.g., 8-12 story steps please), and a nice big open world boss (the flower).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Faolain was manipulative even from the beginning, and Caithe began naive just like others of her race. She trusted Faolain just like how Riannoc trusted Wayne. Both of the later betrayed the former.

Maybe it’s because I didn’t see what was going on outside the hut, but I didn’t see anything to suggest Faolain was being manipulative at that point. She was caustic in her opinion, overtly racist, and seemed to be dragging Caithe along whether the other wanted to come or not, but there wasn’t any point where I caught her being deceitful or trying to control Caithe. If anything, in the last instance the centaur felt manipulative- deliberately leading us away from Faolain, then trying to keep us separated while Faolain was being attacked.

There are things to apreaciate in this patch.
The artwork is great as always for example. The sound is also great.

However the narrative is… well, still a checklist. Like they are still trying to hit certain points, but have trouble fitting them in.

For this episode the tasks seem to be:
- The way to Caithes secret.
- Faolain is a crazy kitten!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 oh and evil of course…
- Show some Sylvari fanservice
- Evil Asura.

However it needed (in my opinion) more than this. This is just one chain of events, maybe two or three days in Caithes life.
The result is that every character feels one dimensional.

With these flashbacks we could have taken a look at the birth of the Sylvari, how Faolain fall from grace, etc…

However we got naive Caithe and kitteny Faolaine with mommy issues (seems to be a common theme, looking at you Braham).

I am really torn here. It is not bad. It just comes (again) as a wasted opportunity and maybe it is simply because episode 5 was so “good” and now we end up with two “filler” in a row.

This is also pretty annoying with the finale next, which as it seems will be:
- We find Caithe and her secret (and kill her).
- We get (not) to the egg in time
- The pact launches its attack (and is completly destroyed) (and kills the Mordrem creation plant )

I hate to say it, but Season 2, with all it`s high notes, seems to end up as nothing more than filler. I am about to say that Season 1, even with Scarlet, had much more bite to it.

I mean, how far did we even come so far? To be honest… even with all that “happened” we are not really that much further.
So far we only solved the mystery of the Master of Peace and are officially introduced to Mordremoth who is, where we knew he was.
The rest was mostly “character developement” and hijinks…

Yes, it is all needed, but we are slow, even slower than with Scarlet. However she had the positive side of that she actually did something.

So far our “antagonist” is just there, not very menancing. He is a danger, sure, but nothing feasable and the writing so far doesn`t make it out as something we should rush to, as we are just patroling along a danger zone.

I really hope we get a big announcment after the next release, because right now we know it will be a cliffhanger and you know what? I am so fed up with these kitten cliffhanger

How hard can it be to give us some closure?

Jaken.6801:

There are things to apreaciate in this patch.
The artwork is great as always for example. The sound is also great.

However the narrative is… well, still a checklist. Like they are still trying to hit certain points, but have trouble fitting them in.

For this episode the tasks seem to be:
- The way to Caithes secret.
- Faolain is a crazy kitten!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 oh and evil of course…
- Show some Sylvari fanservice
- Evil Asura.

However it needed (in my opinion) more than this. This is just one chain of events, maybe two or three days in Caithes life.
The result is that every character feels one dimensional.

With these flashbacks we could have taken a look at the birth of the Sylvari, how Faolain fall from grace, etc…

However we got naive Caithe and kitteny Faolaine with mommy issues (seems to be a common theme, looking at you Braham).

I am really torn here. It is not bad. It just comes (again) as a wasted opportunity and maybe it is simply because episode 5 was so “good” and now we end up with two “filler” in a row.

This is also pretty annoying with the finale next, which as it seems will be:
- We find Caithe and her secret.
- We get (not) to the egg in time
- The pact launches its attack (and is completly destroyed) (and kills the Mordrem creation plan )

I hate to say it, but Season 2, with all it`s high notes, seems to end up as nothing more than filler. I am about to say that Season 1, even with Scarlet, had much more bite to it.

I mean, how far did we even come so far? To be honest… even with all that “happened” we are not really that much further.
So far we only solved the mystery of the Master of Peace and are officially introduced to Mordremoth who is, where we knew he was.
The rest was mostly “character developement” and hijinks…

Yes, it is all needed, but we are slow, even slower than with Scarlet. However she had the positive side of that she actually did something.

So far our “antagonist” is just there, not very menancing. He is a danger, sure, but nothing feasable and the writing so far doesn`t make it out as something we should rush to, as we are just patroling along a danger zone.

I really hope we get a big announcment after the next release, because right now we know it will be a cliffhanger and you know what? I am so fed up with these kitten cliffhanger

How hard can it be to give us some closure?

Yeah, season 2, we never really make any achievement against Mordremoth. Just solving some stupid mystery and fight over a mysterious egg.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

saye.9304:

i think Caithe`s Secret is wynne, she is going to kill wynne for faolain, she committed MURDERER.

Nice thought, but I’m doubtful.

Scarlet hinted that Faolain didn’t know – and that even the Pale Tree may not know.

Sounds to me that Caithe found out Wynne’s secret, but Faolain failed to.

The question is, what is that secret? Most likely the cave of seeds that Ronan found.

Final note:
Episode 8 better be even bigger than Episode 5, with these two small filler episodes. And I mean story steps quantity that are on par to Chapter 8 of the Personal Story (pre or post feature batch kitten-up) – meaning either double or triple the standard story step amount e.g., 8-12 story steps please), and a nice big open world boss (the flower).

no one knows how much pale tree know and what kind of secrets she is holding including scarlet.
as for faolain well i do not know why she does not know, we actually have to wait and see but i i am still kind of sure caithes secret has some thing to do with wynne.
as for cave secret, i really do not think caithe found cave with other seeds, it is possible but then how scarlet became to know about it??, it is unlikely that the secret is cave.
again wait for 2 weeks i also hope like you that the final patch of ls2 is going to be good

My facebook feed just reminded me of something else irritating… the tagline for this episode, which ArenaNet has posted all over the place, is “To catch a thief, you must become a thief”; and yet, we neither catch the thief, nor even find any information that tells us where the thief might be.

I guess I’m in the minority here, but I actually liked Faolain in this episode. It was fleshing out one of the non-dragon villains, something that’s needed to happen for a very long time, and it was done without trying to justify her actions by making her relatable or sympathetic. I’m all for letting the bad guys be fleshed out and still be bad people.

That, and, as mentioned above, she was the only one who seemed properly horrified by what the asura were doing. In my book, that makes her the least flat of the lot.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Maybe it’s because I didn’t see what was going on outside the hut, but I didn’t see anything to suggest Faolain was being manipulative at that point. She was caustic in her opinion, overtly racist, and seemed to be dragging Caithe along whether the other wanted to come or not, but there wasn’t any point where I caught her being deceitful or trying to control Caithe. If anything, in the last instance the centaur felt manipulative- deliberately leading us away from Faolain, then trying to keep us separated while Faolain was being attacked.

Han Faolain shot first.

The centaurs didn’t attack first, Faolain did. But Faolain claims they attacked her. This isn’t obvious if you’re the instance leader, though it’s hinted in the dialogue of the centaur shouting stop after Faolain screamed.

Jaken.6801:

I hate to say it, but Season 2, with all it`s high notes, seems to end up as nothing more than filler. I am about to say that Season 1, even with Scarlet, had much more bite to it.

I mean, how far did we even come so far? To be honest… even with all that “happened” we are not really that much further.
So far we only solved the mystery of the Master of Peace and are officially introduced to Mordremoth who is, where we knew he was.
The rest was mostly “character developement” and hijinks…

While I agree that Season 2 doesn’t feel as kitteneason 1, Season 1 was 24 releases, this is 8. Mind you, Most of Season 1 was either the size of episode 6 (which is about 1/2 or 2/3 a regular S2 episode) or smaller, so you can probably cut the size in half – to 12 episodes. Still, S1 was bigger than S2 in length. So naturally it’ll hold more bit.

But even the personal story held more bite than Season 2, both having 8 chapters/episodes.

To be honest, I feel like what we’ve experienced in Seaosn 2 can be numbed down to 4 or 5 episodes. Episodes 3 and 4 felt like it was more of just one, while the first of E5 was pointless, most of E2 and E7 felt pointless (though E7 was enriching in lore and content) and E6 felt minimalistic.

saye.9304:

as for cave secret, i really do not think caithe found cave with other seeds, it is possible but then how scarlet became to know about it??, it is unlikely that the secret is cave.

Scarlet likely found the cave too. There’s a few hints to the seed for the Tower of Nightmares potentially being the same as the Pale Tree’s seed – or at least a very special seed.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I guess I’m in the minority here, but I actually liked Faolain in this episode.

I’m on the fence. It’s not bad, but it feels to be the same as Cadeyrn and Ceara now, whereas before it felt like Faolain literally fell from grace. Now it seems that she was evil-ish the entire time. Previous lore hinted that the Caithe/Faolain relationship was actually healthy, this shows it wasn’t.

So it rather feels like the lore got a new look.

Faolain
To be honest, her whole behaviour made it very very obvious that she was the one who started it.
She was out for trouble since the start. This was certainly not subtle. Faolain was portraited as unpacient, easy to enrage, ready for conflict, racist, egocentric and manipulative.
The few good parts she has shown were towards Caithe, while she talked not good about everyone else.

Season 2
What I do not get is what the intend of this season is.
We knew that it will be a filler (no one expected us to fight and kill Mordremoth) so the only thing they had to do is: Get us to Mordremoth

However the story so far ends up being all over the place.

Something that started out as an expedition into uncharted territory and what could have been a great adventure to figure out what the roar at the end of S1 was, quickly ended in E2, with Mordremoth crashing the party and instead of being a mystery, everybody knows.

So that plotpoint gone, we had the master of peace as a new direction to follow, as we got the very slow call to arms as a second point.
All that with some red shirt belinda, some Scarlet wrap up and overall some needed but too much emphasised character developement.

To be honest, I am lost.

If that is the pace we are going for now, than we won`t see the next ED till Season 4.
Talking about a real living world is completly out of the question, because the current format has the rest of the world in a time bubble, which means we can forget the other EDs in the meantime, since I do not believe that we get a multi front storyline.

To be honest I really hope by now that they announce an expansion at the end of the year, only to give us something to cling too as we endure the slow pace we got here.

Disclaimer
While it sounds very negative what I am writing, I will say it is not bad what we get. However it is hard to stay engaged, since it is just a slow dripple. It is a Game, not a TV show and the format we have so far does not really capture me, or even satisfy my need for story and immersion.

I know it is not easy. I know there are restrains, but this are unfortunatly the limit.
Limits I feel with every release and see what could have been.

Just checked it out for myself. The centaur threatened Faolain, she screamed and called in her cronies, and they both attacked each other at the same time. There was a point where she made a casting animation, but no attack- I think she was just porting in her proto-Court.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I guess I’m in the minority here, but I actually liked Faolain in this episode.

I’m on the fence. It’s not bad, but it feels to be the same as Cadeyrn and Ceara now, whereas before it felt like Faolain literally fell from grace. Now it seems that she was evil-ish the entire time. Previous lore hinted that the Caithe/Faolain relationship was actually healthy, this shows it wasn’t.

So it rather feels like the lore got a new look.

How do you see Falolain in this episode as evilish the entire time?
I see her as a sylvari that couldn’t be herself in the oppressive nature of sylvari society and then got major trust issues because Vorp tricked her in killing a newborn.

Also about the healthy relationship. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the realtaionship is shorter then previously depicted, since the time between secondborn and firstborn is only two years (I’m not someone with much gw2 lore knowledge but I remembered seeing a post where it was stated around 8 years which in my opinion is much better since the wisdom/experience of 2 years old people is not that impressive).

Tim.6450:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I guess I’m in the minority here, but I actually liked Faolain in this episode.

I’m on the fence. It’s not bad, but it feels to be the same as Cadeyrn and Ceara now, whereas before it felt like Faolain literally fell from grace. Now it seems that she was evil-ish the entire time. Previous lore hinted that the Caithe/Faolain relationship was actually healthy, this shows it wasn’t.

So it rather feels like the lore got a new look.

How do you see Falolain in this episode as evilish the entire time?
I see her as a sylvari that couldn’t be herself in the oppressive nature of sylvari society and then got major trust issues because Vorp tricked her in killing a newborn.

Also about the healthy relationship. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the realtaionship is shorter then previously depicted, since the time between secondborn and firstborn is only two years (I’m not someone with much gw2 lore knowledge but I remembered seeing a post where it was stated around 8 years which in my opinion is much better since the wisdom/experience of 2 years old people is not that impressive).

I might be able to answer that:

It is a problem based on what we saw and what we can think and extrapolate from it.

We saw a very brief chain of events, in which Caithe`s and Faolain`s character was already formed.

This is, we join their story as the Secondborn were born, had some time to live and were able to form their own opinions.

Faolain at this time already had their ideas and does not hold back in telling us about.
She has problems with how the Pale Tree is forcing an ideal on them and how she believes to pick favourites among them.

Faolain never showed much respect for the other Firstborn , in fact she had a rebell atitude and liked the idea of not following the rules.
(While we have to be fair, even Caithe said the Secondborn did not have to follow the rules, if they don`t like it)

As Faolain heard about the Power Whenny (not sure abou ehr name at the moment) she obviously saw her chance.

Faolain has/had feelings for Caithe, who is shown as pretty naive and easily manipulated by Faolains words.

She is depicted as rutheless and ready to attack if needed. Which is shown at least two times. At the assault on the asura she suggested violence and with the centaur she had her own private army for “safety”.

From the get go it was clear that she was not out for a “friendly” conversation.

Each time she spoke, we never really had her say something good, except in front of Caithe, whom she had feelings for.

There were also clear signs of racism, as she did not except the centaur and called them animals or beasts, which might have created the whole fight.

Conclusion
The Faolain we saw was fully immersed in her role as someone who wanted to change things for the better but only for the Sylvari.
She felt not apreaciated from her mother, the Pale Tree and opressed.

However we never saw her way there. All that we know is what she tells us as her reasoning.
There has to be areason Caithe fell in love with her and vice verse. There are hints that she was gentle at some point, because she can be that way with Caithe.
Unfortunatly we see that side of her only with her, so her other characteristics are on the forefront if we would have to discribe her.

Or in lame terms: “Mommy doesn`t love me like the others… She lies to me…”

I still haven’t played the latest chapter for myself, but I’m loving all the delicious new insights we’re getting into Caithe, Faolain and the early days of Sylvari history. (The glaring plot holes excluded. The confusion over when Riannoc died being the biggest one, as Konig points out.)

As to why Caithe is attracted to Faolain… Love is a very funny thing. Intellectually you might know that somebody is a very bad fit for you, but emotions (and memories) have a way of making you ignore all of that and just keep believing in that person. Trust me, I know from personal experience.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

• I LOVED finally seeing the dark past of asura and sylvari interaction. Even Malomedies being experimented upon was only barely touched upon in the game, and only for Night sylvari in the PS as far as I know.

This seems strange to me in hindsight because, according to Aife, after Malomedies is experimented on, the asura return him to the other sylvari and express remorse.

“The asura have offered peace. They did not realize that he… They thought he was simply another of the strange plants of the deep Maguuma, mimicking sentience,” Aife told them. “When they realized he was truly aware, they returned him to us.”

Why would the asura kidnap sylvari a second time in the same manner as before after they had learned that sylvari are “truly aware”?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

• Fiana! We see “a dead secondborn!”

I actually had to wiki her as I couldn’t remember who she was. Odd choice for a cameo but it is nice to see someone we never get to meet.

I have trouble understanding the secondborn. In Scarlet’s short story, Serimon is already a Mender that greets Ceara when she wakes. He’s from the second generation of sylvari but he’s already a mender and helping bring the new sylvari into the world? How much older than Scarlet is he?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

• Trahearne talks about sylvari having free will. Proof they’re not dragon minions for dragon minions hold no free will! hah!

Glint was a dragon minion and she had free will granted to her by the forgotten. The Pale Tree’s seed was found by Ronan in a cave somewhere we don’t know. The current story has links between the Pale Tree and Glint’s egg, Caithe is after the egg and now there is some secret (possibly relating to Ventari given how familiar the centaur in the Silverwastes were with him) in a cave with snake-like imagery (which in another version had Crystal Desert/forgotten glyphs). What if the forgotten have something to do with the origin of the Pale Tree? Something similar to how they have something to do with the freeing of Glint. I’m not saying the sylvari/minion theory is true (or even likely) but the circumstances could easily be read to be going in that direction (which is why I think it’s unlikely).

saye.9304:

I think Caithe`s Secret is wynne, she is going to kill wynne for faolain, she committed MURDERER.

There is obviously some kind of significant event that happens between Wynne and Caithe. Scarlet claims Caithe has a nasty secret, one that Faolain and the Pale Tree might be unaware of. Wynne is, afaik, no longer around in present day, so something likely happens to her.

Most importantly – Wynne has Caithe’s present day hair style. That’s too significant to be a coincidence, it seems there is something important about Caithe taking on Wynne’s look, perhaps out of guilt or to remind herself of what she has done (she has to face a part of Wynne every day) or maybe just to remember someone she lost. I would be very disappointed if it was just a coincidence. It’s a bit of a cliche but some women dramatically alter their hair after a major event in their life.

The Asura didn’t kill any people. All they did was kill some sylvari, much like I do when I clear out the brush in my back yard. No different than killing poison ivy. Apparently you can’t use sylvari for smoking meat, because they smell rotten.

Jaken.6801:

Caithe`s Secret is still a Mystery, though the “power to control sylvary” thingy, sounds intuiging. Could that be it?

I think what’s being eluded to at this point is that Caithe may have killed Wymm and denied her mercy or something, all to protect Faolain who of course orchestrated the whole thing just to start a battle. Faolain was manipulating Caithe by using their love for one another. Scarlet may have found out that Caithe, for whatever reason, killed Wymm who as far as we could tell was innocent and had every bit of good intention.

Ronin.7381:

Jaken.6801:

Caithe`s Secret is still a Mystery, though the “power to control sylvary” thingy, sounds intuiging. Could that be it?

I think what’s being eluded to at this point is that Caithe may have killed Wymm and denied her mercy or something, all to protect Faolain who of course orchestrated the whole thing just to start a battle. Faolain was manipulating Caithe by using their love for one another. Scarlet may have found out that Caithe, for whatever reason, killed Wymm who as far as we could tell was innocent and had every bit of good intention.

Caithe may have also killed Wynn to keep her secret safe from Faolain.

Thank you for the respons Jaken but I had a different view when I saw it.

Jaken.6801:

I might be able to answer that:

It is a problem based on what we saw and what we can think and extrapolate from it.

We saw a very brief chain of events, in which Caithe`s and Faolain`s character was already formed.

and being formed and this is were I think we differ in our views. I view this as part of her fall to nightmare while you see it as a show of the true Faolain.

Jaken.6801:

This is, we join their story as the Secondborn were born, had some time to live and were able to form their own opinions.

Faolain at this time already had their ideas and does not hold back in telling us about.
She has problems with how the Pale Tree is forcing an ideal on them and how she believes to pick favourites among them.

Faolain never showed much respect for the other Firstborn , in fact she had a rebell atitude and liked the idea of not following the rules.
(While we have to be fair, even Caithe said the Secondborn did not have to follow the rules, if they don`t like it)

As Faolain heard about the Power Whenny (not sure abou ehr name at the moment) she obviously saw her chance.

In this moment I thaught that it was not about the power but about the control it had over the Sylvari, but more importantly her. She was a weed in nature and had to be blossom, se she felt she was already being controlled by the tree. So she had an interest in the secret in order to protect herself and not being controlled. It was interest in the first place, but become an obsession when she was tricked by Vorp in killing her own kind. This where it changed she would not be fooled, not by Vorp and not by Wynne.

Jaken.6801:

Faolain has/had feelings for Caithe, who is shown as pretty naive and easily manipulated by Faolains words.

I may have missed that part (or forget) but I haven’t seen her lie to Caithe.

Jaken.6801:

She is depicted as rutheless and ready to attack if needed. Which is shown at least two times. At the assault on the asura she suggested violence and with the centaur she had her own private army for “safety”.

From the get go it was clear that she was not out for a “friendly” conversation.

The first one is kinda justified since well they were experimenting on her own kind, also it is worth noting that she wass willing to take the stealthy nonviolent approach. The second time was in my opinion not case of aggressive but paranoia. She did not trust the other species because the previous one made her kill a fellow sylvari. That’s why she has safety.

Jaken.6801:

Each time she spoke, we never really had her say something good, except in front of Caithe, whom she had feelings for.

I don’t know freedom of thought is something good in my opinion.

Jaken.6801:

There were also clear signs of racism, as she did not except the centaur and called them animals or beasts, which might have created the whole fight.

She was very negative about the centaurs since she classified them with the Asura (creatures of meat or non-Sylvari we don’t know). You know the killers of her kind and the ones who made you kill one of your own. It was unjustified but not evil. After she is around 2 years old.

Of course everyone can have it`s own views on this part. That`s what so great about it. However you asked why she is viewed so negatively in general.
Of course that was just what I got out of the szene and the opinions of others might differ.

(i go through your conclusions, but i am bad with quoting)

Even if her charatcer is still being formed, most of her basic characteristics were allready present. That includes her rebell atitude and her agressivness.
We never saw how she is otherwise, aside from the gentle moments with Caithe (she proclaims her love, guestures, her voice changes to a nicer one)

We only know from Faolain that she felt like a weed, with no real sign on how the pale Tree treated her differently than the others.
We have only her words on it.
In her opinion the Pale Tree had clearly favourites, like Wynn, and doesn`t care about the others the same way.
She was clearly and openly jealous and in my opinion didn`t try to hide it.
She knew about the secret beforehand but wanted to wait till Wynn comes back.
The Asura incident just made her more vary of the outside world.

The Caithe/Faolain dynamic is kinda weird. We have Faolain openly being agressive to others and trating Caithe like a pet.
Caithe herself jumps from naive and rational to “I kill you” in the presence of Faolain (however you are right, we do not have enough evidence here. I just think it is quite the shift in her personality and I think Faolain has some influence on her there. Might be just my theory and I might need to replay it)

Faolain is ruthless from the get go. She proclaimed to go with violence, before they have seen what the Asura have done.
While it might be justified, because they were taken by the Asura against their will, it is still a negative atribute.
She is clearly a “shoot first, ask later” kind of person.
Even if it turned out her means would have been justified, it is still not in her favour, because it shows that she has a one track mind.

The army thing however again is kind of short sighted from her. Understandable, but at this point she is alive for two years.
They should have had some kind of outside contact since they for some reason all wear clothes.
We know Sylvari only adapt the humanoid likeness and that their clothes are part of their body.
This indiactes they have thought, ideas, etc in their mind.
Faolain and Caithe were without a doubt able to traverse the land without a lot of protection and are stealthy enough to get around without a big fight if they wanted.
Faolain was clearly out for trouble in some form.

Yes, freedom of thought is something good. However it is kind of weird if it is onesided and egocentric, isn`t it?
That just shows that she has not much regard for others.

Sylvari are 2 years old, but they get a learning program installed with basic concept and ideas, acompanied with a goal: the wylde hunt

She shows a clear protective nature for Sylvari and a very disdain for other races.
She grew up with Ventaris words and knows that they are intelligent beings who have a concept of honor.
She knows they are different than the Asura.

If it is not racism, it shows that she does not want to accept anyone else on the level of Sylvari. The fact that it did not really cross her mind that everyone is different, even though she can see it in her own culture, shows a very narrow view of the world (okay, she is two years old) and a clinging to familiar concepts.

Unfortunalty we only see her encounter these two intelligent races and each time she herself prefers agression over diplomacy from the beginning.
Everytime it is Caithe who wants to the more peaceful route.

Yes. We can construct a reasonable interpretation why she does certain things.
Unfortunatly we really only see her for a “certain and small chain of events” that does show her mostly negative.
It does not show a lot of depth and her redeeming features are barely existing.

Interesting? Maybe.
Positive? sadly no, since it is just too one sided of a depiction.

The only thing I have to say about the story is that my girlfriend and I felt terrible killing all those centaurs. I guess that could be seen as a compliment to the writers. But I hate Caithe now, so there’s that.

I’m amazed how the writers managed to put in such a nice little and extremely easily missed detail like Fiana and at the same time screwed up something big and super obvious as Rhiannoc’s death.

We can’t have cake and eat it, huh.
Episode was good, albeit short. Cliffhangers make me cry blood.
Also FORGOTTEN HYPE.

I honestly can’t see how people can’t understand that the title of this episode, i.e. "To catch a thief, you must become a thief” has nothing to do with actually capturing Caithe now, but with the fact that in order to track her, you must BECOME her, in her memories, as PC in all the visions IS Caithe.

Also, the people Faolain had hired to accompany them in the desert… wait – what?!? o.O

Someone mentioned Caithe having Wynne’s hairstyle, right?

Another turn of the screw!

What if Wynne’s actually killed Caithe and then assumed her form to…

Nah, not even ANet would go for that one.

For all those crying this is a cliffhanger, I have news for you…technically it’s not since there’s no suspense in the direction we have to go. Marjory goes back to the Priory, does research to find the symbols on the cave door, reports to us when she’s found it, and we then enter the cave door and use the final memory seed. No cliffhanger, other than what it is we find within that memory, which is very likely to be Caithe’s secret…or that she took the Egg into that cave and it leads to a place where it can be kept safe.

I personally don’t think Caithe is evil and we will have to kill her.
The pale tree probably knows her secret if it gave you the memory seeds right?
My guess is this is where the split between Faolain and Caithe happens while they or one of them does something horrible and Caithe want to redeem herself somehow with the egg.

Shiren.9532:

This seems strange to me in hindsight because, according to Aife, after Malomedies is experimented on, the asura return him to the other sylvari and express remorse.

“The asura have offered peace. They did not realize that he… They thought he was simply another of the strange plants of the deep Maguuma, mimicking sentience,” Aife told them. “When they realized he was truly aware, they returned him to us.”

Why would the asura kidnap sylvari a second time in the same manner as before after they had learned that sylvari are “truly aware”?

I doubt the entire race would, let alone the Arcane Eye whom will kill members of their own race for the whims of the Arcane Council.

That whole set up needed but one asura to want to continue the experimentation. And they had reason: the sylvari have energy that is highly beneficial to their golems. It seems that Vorpp wasn’t yet convinced that they were more than ‘creatures’.

But good observation, I had forgotten about it. An arguable other continuity error… but in all honesty, I can forgive this.

Shiren.9532:

I actually had to wiki her as I couldn’t remember who she was. Odd choice for a cameo but it is nice to see someone we never get to meet.

I have trouble understanding the secondborn. In Scarlet’s short story, Serimon is already a Mender that greets Ceara when she wakes. He’s from the second generation of sylvari but he’s already a mender and helping bring the new sylvari into the world? How much older than Scarlet is he?

Scarlet’s timeline is a complete mess-up. I don’t think she should have been cameo’d here, chronologically speaking. But sylvari tend to be quick to their roles, and the instance takes “months” after Cadeyrn was born.

Shiren.9532:

Glint was a dragon minion and she had free will granted to her by the forgotten. The Pale Tree’s seed was found by Ronan in a cave somewhere we don’t know. The current story has links between the Pale Tree and Glint’s egg, Caithe is after the egg and now there is some secret (possibly relating to Ventari given how familiar the centaur in the Silverwastes were with him) in a cave with snake-like imagery (which in another version had Crystal Desert/forgotten glyphs). What if the forgotten have something to do with the origin of the Pale Tree? Something similar to how they have something to do with the freeing of Glint. I’m not saying the sylvari/minion theory is true (or even likely) but the circumstances could easily be read to be going in that direction (which is why I think it’s unlikely).

I was being semi-sarcastic. Sorry I didn’t made it clear.

I really do hope that sylvari don’t end up being dragon minions. I WILL quit the game over such ridiculousness. And I know many others who will too, particularly in the sylvari RP realm.

Shiren.9532:

There is obviously some kind of significant event that happens between Wynne and Caithe. Scarlet claims Caithe has a nasty secret, one that Faolain and the Pale Tree might be unaware of. Wynne is, afaik, no longer around in present day, so something likely happens to her.

Most importantly – Wynne has Caithe’s present day hair style. That’s too significant to be a coincidence, it seems there is something important about Caithe taking on Wynne’s look, perhaps out of guilt or to remind herself of what she has done (she has to face a part of Wynne every day) or maybe just to remember someone she lost. I would be very disappointed if it was just a coincidence. It’s a bit of a cliche but some women dramatically alter their hair after a major event in their life.

I noticed the hairstyle differences. I think it’s more than coincidence, but alas, we got to wait for two weeks. For what will likely be yet another cliffhanger for Season 3.

Season 2 is far too bloody short. Give us 12 episodes dang it. Full episodes.

Rhaegar.1203:

Someone mentioned Caithe having Wynne’s hairstyle, right?

Another turn of the screw!

What if Wynne’s actually killed Caithe and then assumed her form to…

Nah, not even ANet would go for that one.

Caithe cares too much about Faolain’s love, and the Pale Tree should know about the change and thus wouldn’t bother trying to comfort Caithe’s lost love in the sylvari personal story.

Zaklex.6308:

For all those crying this is a cliffhanger, I have news for you…technically it’s not since there’s no suspense in the direction we have to go. Marjory goes back to the Priory, does research to find the symbols on the cave door, reports to us when she’s found it, and we then enter the cave door and use the final memory seed. No cliffhanger, other than what it is we find within that memory, which is very likely to be Caithe’s secret…or that she took the Egg into that cave and it leads to a place where it can be kept safe.

One of the ways in which this is becoming a ridiculous cliche for Living Story is it’s the second time they’ve used that as an ending. Episode four ends with Marjory and Kasmeer going to the Priory to research more about Mordremoth. I rolled my eyes when Marjory said it this release. Not just because it meant a cliff hanger, but because it has been done before. If you count individual instances, several times this season have ended with people going to the Priory to do research. I know it makes sense, but geese.

The other cliche being overused atm is “I’ll send word to the Pale Tree to see if she will grant us an audience only to tell us almost nothing when she clearly knows way more than she’s sharing”. Specifically after we used Omadd’s device and again after Caithe stole the egg. We’ve had several audiences with the Pale Tree and she’s told us almost nothing (including when the world leaders were gathered there). At least at the Priory we can explain it as we were looking for the wrong thing or we simply couldn’t find it, but the Pale Tree has no excuse.

Honorary mention for cryptic behaviour goes to Ogden because he knew more than we were shown (he showed us instead of telling us) but he also goes onto suggest we didn’t “see” something in Glint’s lair because we aren’t ready to know yet. He gets a pass because while he is obviously holding back, at least he answered a tonne or questions with full voice acting on big topic issues in the lore. Stand alone his cryptic behaviour isn’t as annoying, but when you consider the wider story telling (Caithe’s secret, the Pale Tree’s many secrets, the Master of Peace’s secret, Ogen’s secrets, the White Mantle Secret, Scarlet’s Secret, E’s secret etc) it’s clear that secrets and mysteries are the biggest cliches in season 2. Most surprising of all, season 2 is the season of secrets and I don’t think the Order of Whispers has come up once. I hope it’s because they are being SUPER SECRET and not because everyone else being cryptic has simply made them redundant.

Anyandrell.6238:

I honestly can’t see how people can’t understand that the title of this episode, i.e. "To catch a thief, you must become a thief” has nothing to do with actually capturing Caithe now, but with the fact that in order to track her, you must BECOME her, in her memories, as PC in all the visions IS Caithe.

No, I think people understand perfectly what is going on. You’re only fulfilling half of the sentence by becoming Caithe. The first part isn’t fulfilled yet.

ElysianEternity.6215:

I’m amazed how the writers managed to put in such a nice little and extremely easily missed detail like Fiana and at the same time screwed up something big and super obvious as Rhiannoc’s death.

I’m conflicted atm. Wynne is obviously not around in present day Tyria (at least nowhere we can see here) so the obvious guess is to assume she is dead. The problem with that is Rhiannoc was the first to die (and it was said in game). But this last release seems to have gotten that wrong, are they about to make that plot significantly worse by having Wynne as the second “first” Firstborn to die? Assuming she does die or that Caithe kills her (either one) it would be a significant blow to the sylvari and a big moment in the personal journeys of the Firstborn. Caithe actually talks about this when she is talking about Rhiannoc and how significant his death was for the sylvari. It would seriously mess up Caithe’s character development if she is seen mourning the death of Wynne as the first Firstborn to die when she is seen talking about it in the Personal Story when it’s Rhiannoc.

I want to say Wynne can’t die because Rhiannoc hasn’t died yet, but after this release sylvari lore is so messy I’m beginning to think it’s not worth bothering.

This egg better not turn into a MacGuffin or I will be ticked. As far as this epoisode goes there were some major continuity issues again with the Sylvari race. Why after so many years is this still happening? However some of the elements were pretty interesting in this story.

I take it that Caithe and Faolain are towards the end of their relationship with each other. Probably the next chapter is about what causes the break up (hopefully not the Jora/Svanir plot line again), as well as the secret that Caithe was hiding. Beyond the innocent centaur massacre that she fell for because of Faolain antics.

It felt just like the whole Star Wars Emperor Palpatine being blatantly obvious about trying to turn Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side of the force in episode 3. However Anakin does not see it because they have been friends for a long while already. If that’s what is going on between Caithe and Faolain then firmly establish they have been a longterm relationship. Where they have built upon years of trust. Speaking of Star Wars that whole centaur massacre thing kind of felt a bit like the Tusken Raider massacre in episode 2.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rhaegar.1203:

Someone mentioned Caithe having Wynne’s hairstyle, right?

Another turn of the screw!

What if Wynne’s actually killed Caithe and then assumed her form to…

Nah, not even ANet would go for that one.

Caithe cares too much about Faolain’s love, and the Pale Tree should know about the change and thus wouldn’t bother trying to comfort Caithe’s lost love in the sylvari personal story.

This was VERY much tongue-in-cheek.

My opinion would be that the writers forgot that this episode needed to show Caithe’s character. She is the centerpiece of this story, however after playing the episode I really have no more idea what Caithe was like. She just followed events and chopped things up, very similar to the zero personality shown by our player characters.

As an example, I’m not shown why Caithe has any time for Faolian at all let alone a romantic involvement. If they already are lovers then why isn’t Caithe’s first concern the strange mental state of her partner? Why is Caithe holding the idiot ball all the way throughout the story? If Faolian can pulls the strings on the darker side of Caithe’s nature then lets see that in the writing, for both characters.

The whole episode would have been much better if Faolian had been reasonable and persuasive all the way through, making promises which only fall apart later. She could have been an archetypal femme fatale. Visiting the memories of a lover is never going to be the right time to show a character as a brutal thug with blatant character flaws. Caithe is meant to like this person!

What I find interesting is the fact that the Pale Tree had to Protect the Dream at the Attack on the World Summit. Not only was everyone there attacked, but the Dream was also attacked. And I see some connection between Mords Dragon Champ and the Dream. It seems to be connected with the Dream somehow. We see this Special Dragon Champ in the Dream when we create a Sylvari Character where it looked like he wanted to invade the Dream. And in the Attack on the Summit looks who is also there. Our old buddy, the Shadow of the Dragon.

Well some might think that this is another prove of Sylvari = Former Dragon minions Theory but lets be honest, this Theory is brought up every time something happens on Tyria with new " evidence". I don’t see substantial evidence there, I see more evidence against this Theory like the fact that they are Immune to ED Corruption but ED Minions are not.

It could be that this particular Champ has the Ability to interact with the Dream at some places in Tyria, which could make him a valuable asset for Mordremoth, especially if no other of his Minions posess this Ability. Perhaps we will find out more in the Future, with details about the dream and this Champ, if he really has the Ability.

I will just reiterate what others have said. As much as I enjoyed it mechanically (when it didn’t bug) and the storytelling, and the openworld bits, in the larger arc, it was pure filler.

There was essentially no advancement toward the larger goal (Mordremoth) at all, we didn’t even make it to the end of our detour. Cliffhangers are nice and all, but it’s good to resolve something with each episode, even if it’s just a villain of the week. That’s hard when you’re just experiencing someone else’s flashback, but even by that low standard, Vorpp escaped, we only rescued Canach (who we hate), and then we got conned into slaughtering innocents by an up-and-coming villain. About the time it seems like all of this might pay off with some progress… dun dun dun, tune in next week.

As for Faolain’s characterization, I think the intent is to show the fall in progress. In the first bit, she is skeptical about Ventari’s teachings and feels that the Pale Tree and other firstborn are too controlling, and is curious about Cadeyrn’s ideas (not exactly evil, more like a rebellious teenager with strict parents). In the second, she is angry regarding actual mistreatment of Sylvari, and prefers straightforward violence to free them and punish their victimizers (given that this is the typical PC approach to these sorts of situations, it’s hard to call her “evil” yet). In the third, time has passed, the NC is coming into being, and between her experiences, her personality, and her interaction with Caderyn, she has progressed to outright xenophobia, bloodlust, cruelty, and deception/manipulation.

Shiren.9532:

I’m conflicted atm. Wynne is obviously not around in present day Tyria (at least nowhere we can see here) so the obvious guess is to assume she is dead. The problem with that is Rhiannoc was the first to die (and it was said in game). But this last release seems to have gotten that wrong, are they about to make that plot significantly worse by having Wynne as the second “first” Firstborn to die? Assuming she does die or that Caithe kills her (either one) it would be a significant blow to the sylvari and a big moment in the personal journeys of the Firstborn. Caithe actually talks about this when she is talking about Rhiannoc and how significant his death was for the sylvari. It would seriously mess up Caithe’s character development if she is seen mourning the death of Wynne as the first Firstborn to die when she is seen talking about it in the Personal Story when it’s Rhiannoc.

I want to say Wynne can’t die because Rhiannoc hasn’t died yet, but after this release sylvari lore is so messy I’m beginning to think it’s not worth bothering.

You seem to be making a huge mistake.

Riannoc is indeed dead. In this release, Malomedies worries that Riannoc will be in trouble given that he’s been away from the Grove for a long time. Nothing states that Riannoc is not dead, and unless they’re making an even bigger retcon than every sylvari knowing his death (the bigger retcon being that he was not the first sylvari to die), then he is dead they just don’t know it.

Malomedies states that Riannoc has been away for a long time – in other words, Riannoc’s state of being is unknown to Malomedies. Because of this and several Secondborns’ deaths, he fears for Riannoc’s safety.

Nothing says Riannoc lives. It’s just that Malomedies alone doesn’t know Riannoc’s fate (and if Caithe knows, she doesn’t tell Malomedies).

So technically, Angel and co can wurm their way out by saying that only Malomedies – due to being experimented upon at the time – did not know Riannoc died. Of course, why would the others keep this from him? Nobody knows.

TL;DR
The continuity error is not the order of death, but when sylvari found out of Riannoc’s death, and how Riannoc’s death immediately affected the sylvari race and the Dream.

I’d argue that there’s no way to tell if Riannoc is dead- if he’s not dead, it’s a retcon to the order. If he is dead, it’s a retcon to the response… and it should also be a retcon to knowledge of the order. If Riannoc’s death wasn’t felt by others, and if the circumstances of Riannoc’s death are not uncovered until the PS, how can the sylvari say not only when he died, and where that puts him in relation to other deaths, but even that he had died at all?

The easiest fix for that plothole is to change Malomedies’ line so that he talks about Riannoc’s death. (The line about “we went so long without losing one of our own” can stay. It’s ambiguous enough so that it could be referring to Riannoc’s death.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says Riannoc lives. It’s just that Malomedies alone doesn’t know Riannoc’s fate (and if Caithe knows, she doesn’t tell Malomedies).

So technically, Angel and co can wurm their way out by saying that only Malomedies – due to being experimented upon at the time – did not know Riannoc died. Of course, why would the others keep this from him? Nobody knows.

That wouldn’t make much sense. The firstborn gathered to discuss what to do about the secondborn. They are talking about the future of their species, their family. Survival (and a responsibility to their people). I find it hard to believe Malomedies, portrayed as one of the most intelligent and wise sylvari, is kept in the dark about an incredibly significant event that is specifically relevant to the topic, especially when we are given no reason to think the sylvari would keep news of Riannoc’s death from him (how you would even keep that a secret is beyond me – even secondborn like Cadeyrn knew about it). Malomedies didn’t look like he had recently recovered from being experimented on, he looked as he does today. That much time passing from when he was “near death” it seems unrealistic he wouldn’t be informed of his brother’s death (or that death was a possible outcome for his race). Remember all of this now has to fit into a two year time frame instead of a seven year time frame.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

TL;DR
The continuity error is not the order of death, but when sylvari found out of Riannoc’s death, and how Riannoc’s death immediately affected the sylvari race and the Dream.

That’s a hard sell imo.

Unlike many races, the sylvari have an intimate sense of their own history, having lived through it. They can name the first sylvari that ever died—Riannoc, one of the firstborn. They can tell you who first learned how to write and who, specifically, developed the methods to grow houses. They tell their stories and legends as if they personally witnessed them, because for many, they have at least dreamed of it.

Riannoc’s death isn’t supposed to be a mystery (the fact that it happened, not how it happened). It’s supposed to be a known event, felt by the sylvari. We know in the Personal Story that the events surrounding it are a mystery but that they did know he died. If they didn’t know from the moment he died (and the empathic impact he had on the Dream as a result) that he was dead, what possible explanation would they have for realising he was dead later?