Guild Wars 2

I need some help, lorewalkers.

The magic is like the ligth, and Mordremlth took the death magic from Zaithan.

Are the Mordrems the result of Mordremoth + Zaithan Magic? The sylvari are the original army of Mordremoth, so, where does the Mordrem come from?

And the other one, is the vision we saw inside the Scarlet machine.

We saw ghe heart of Tyria and what we though were the elder dragons awakening. But, maeby the spheres that start moving, where the diferent kind of magic. So, in the vision, we saw how the death magic, fell in the Leyline network.

With the new information, what do you think about the vision of Scarlet`s machine?

I would say Mordremoth’s original minions, without the use of Zhaitan’s magic are the copies, while creatures like the Mordrem Wolfs, and Trolls and such are the ones he created with Zhaitan’s magic. Now I know, Taimi says the opposit in episode 2:

Taimi: They changed! It’s… That’s why Mordremoth was able to… The Mordrem, Commander!
Commander: What about them?
Taimi: The ones who came from the blighting pods! Mordremoth had its minions, the sylvari, right? But it was able to create more, new ones from the dead! That power came from Zhaitan!
Taimi: Killing Zhaitan caused the other dragons to absorb the death spectrum, but we only saw it in Mordremoth because it was active.

But honestly that doesn’t make sense to me. The Pale Tree was supposed to be a blighted tree, but she was freed from the dragons corruption. However she was able to create minions (the Sylvari) by copying the dead bodies of Ronan and his family. The same thing the blighted trees do. But the Pale tree was not only cut off from Mordremoth long before he absorbed Zhaitan’s power, but she was doing it herself 25 years before Zhaitan even died.
So I would say the copying effect is Mordy’s natural way of creating minions. The wolfs, trolls and teragriffs look more like zombiefied version of living creatures. Exactly like Zhaitan’s minions, just with a mold, fungus or plant overlay, instead of corals and algae we see on most of Zhaitan’s creations. So those are more likely candidates for the death magic than the spawn of the blighted trees.

On the part about the vision: I’d say it is still a theory, as we have no confirmation, but yes the dark green orb crushing into the All probably means that death magic is now uncontrolled.

vier.1327:

I need some help, lorewalkers.

The magic is like the ligth, and Mordremlth took the death magic from Zaithan.

Are the Mordrems the result of Mordremoth + Zaithan Magic? The sylvari are the original army of Mordremoth, so, where does the Mordrem come from?

Not quite. The average mordrem you see is a normal minion. Through death magic Mordremoth did learn however to collect corpses and use them as blueprints for new mordrem

vier.1327:

And the other one, is the vision we saw inside the Scarlet machine.

We saw ghe heart of Tyria and what we though were the elder dragons awakening. But, maeby the spheres that start moving, where the diferent kind of magic. So, in the vision, we saw how the death magic, fell in the Leyline network.

With the new information, what do you think about the vision of Scarlet`s machine

What I think of that vision now, is the same as back then. it shows us that magic can be schooled, and what we saw was most likely a visual representation of the eternal alchemy, or an alike theroff. But delving into what we saw in that machine is mostly speculation.

ok so we know sylvaris are mordys minion we also know that when a sylvari get corrupted they turn into mordrem, if u rem. the injured mordrem during the story. during the vision of eternal alchemy we did see the green orb going to the middle white orb you could stretch and say it was zaitan magic being a free for all or available because its now neutral. also who says the blighted tree cant grow that fast from zaitan’s death to when we fought mordy. i actually like the idea that when i dragon absorb magic from other dragon it doesnt just make them stronger but change them in away.

Re: Death Mordrem

I honestly don’t think we see any mordrem that are utilizing the domain of death. I think Taimi is just simply plain wrong – taking a new discovery and proclaiming a fact that is nothing more than an unproven theory.

Mordrem Trolls are, according to Scott McGough, corrupted while alive – and Mordrem Wolves, whether corrupted alive or dead, are not suddenly decayed, which is how Zhaitan’s corruption of the domain of death took form.

Keep in mind that in Edge of Destiny, Jormag corrupts corpses – so simply corrupting corpses is not the domain of death that Zhaitan had command over. Also keep in mind that Zhaitan corrupted plants, living, water, sky, and land as well (so too, does Kralkatorrik, and sans plants and sky, so does Jormag).

On top of it, unless they decided to retcon [this interview](http://www.talktyria.net/2011/08/11/sylvari-lore-interview-with-ree-soesbee-kristen-perry/) as well, sylvari were created by using the humans who died around the Pale Tree as templates, obviously less defined as mordrem from the Blighting Trees, but the same method used – the one that Taimi attributes to being due to Zhaitan’s death.

Re: Omadd Machine Vision

What we saw was The All. The spheres are, directly, domains of power – the exact nature of such is unknown. Some scholars theorize stars, others theorize spirit realms, and still others theorize the Elder Dragons themselves. What is known is that the Elder Dragons are directly tied to these domains by sets of two domains per Elder Dragon. Whether there this means the spheres are the Elder Dragons or simply groupings of domains is unknown.

The spheres do, however, become active in the order of the Elder Dragon awakenings – but this could be a reactionary thing rather than a direct showing of their awakenings – and the Pact Commander says that an Elder Dragon “stared at them” in the vision, though the Commander has been wrong about things before (everyone has).

The orb of Zhaitan’s domains were not just death magic but also shadow magic.

As to what this means… I don’t think it really changes the meaning – we always figured it meant magic returned to the world and was going to make things bad in the long run. It just changes how we interpret the specifics of things, which ultimately just adds “can be absorbed by the other ED” which, truth be told, was theorized back since S2E8 when the Shadow of the Dragon used Shadow Tendrils and Smothering Shadows in its battle.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mordrem Trolls are, according to Scott McGough, corrupted while alive – and Mordrem Wolves, whether corrupted alive or dead, are not suddenly decayed, which is how Zhaitan’s corruption of the domain of death took form.

Why would it necessarily have to take exactly the same form as it did when Zhaitan did it? That seems arbitrarily restrictive.

Because that’s how the first domain functions. The first domains – Crystal, Fire, Ice, Plant, Death – are what the Elder Dragons’ corruption takes the form of.

Further, just corrupting corpses is not what Zhaitan’s domain is, as proven by the fact that other Elder Dragons’ dragon champions corrupted corpses or used corpses as templates long before Zhaitan’s death.

The Vine-Touched Destroyers appear as corrupted rock and lava covered in vines. Death-Touched Destroyers and Rotting Destroyers and the Destroyer of Hope/Molten Dominator appear as corrupted rock and lava surrounded by auras of putrid, decay, and rot.

We never see an equivalent of the latter there among the mordrem. Closest I can think of is the adult mordrem wyverns and the trolls/wolves, but the latter are already confirmed to be a case of bodies directly corrupted and slowly turning to plant (like how icebrood slowly turn to ice and bone) rather than copied.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because that’s how the first domain functions. The first domains – Crystal, Fire, Ice, Plant, Death – are what the Elder Dragons’ corruption takes the form of.

Well, it’s how we’ve seen it focus. We also know that Zhaitan exploited the dead on a scale clearly many orders of magnitude larger than anything we saw from any other dragon: we’ve seen a single instance in one of the novels of Jormag exploiting a corpse once. That’s not really comparable in terms of scale alone. It’s still easily possible that Zhaitan’s mastery of death gave it the ability to use the dead on the scale that it did, and that’s firmly within the domain of death.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Further, just corrupting corpses is not what Zhaitan’s domain is, as proven by the fact that other Elder Dragons’ dragon champions corrupted corpses or used corpses as templates long before Zhaitan’s death.

Well, the Pale Tree’s use of dead bodies as a template isn’t really the same as what the Blighting Pods/ Trees did. The former copied a general form, but created endless variations on that basic template. The latter could copy ability and exact form. Again, orders of magnitude.

But we also see Zhaitan “exploiting” the living and plants in the exact same manner as the other Elder Dragons. We’re told that Primordus can corrupt living but never see it; we are told Jormag corrupts willing subjects – does that make Jormag’s first domain “willing living beings”? That makes no sense.

The first domain is not what’s corrupted. It’s what the corruption takes the form of.

Otherwise Kralkatorrik would be the Elder Flesh Dragon, and Jormag would be the Elder Convert Dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But we also see Zhaitan “exploiting” the living and plants in the exact same manner as the other Elder Dragons. We’re told that Primordus can corrupt living but never see it; we are told Jormag corrupts willing subjects – does that make Jormag’s first domain “willing living beings”? That makes no sense.

The first domain is not what’s corrupted. It’s what the corruption takes the form of.

Otherwise Kralkatorrik would be the Elder Flesh Dragon, and Jormag would be the Elder Convert Dragon.

We could just as easily say that the dead rising as Risen is “the form the corruption takes”, though, just as much as the living decaying as Risen. That other Elder Dragons occasionally raise a corpse does not preclude that, because Zhaitan undoubtedly does it on a scale many orders of magnitude above anything they do.

We cannot expect these domains to correspond with not even the slightest overlap; light doesn’t, after all, and neither do the Gods’ domains. We’re talking about orders of magnitude.

Your comment is rather contradicting itself.

If “the living decaying” is the form the domain’s corruption takes, then it’s not “the corruption of corpses” that is the domain, because it means that both living and dead are turned into the corruption.

Zhaitan does it on a scale greater, but that doesn’t make rising corpses to be the domain – it’s just what he does more. If “domain of death” equated “domain of corrupting corpses” were the domain, then as I said (what you never addressed), then Jormag would have the domain of willing converts, and Kralkatorrik the domain of physical touch. Which makes no sense.

And what about the land, water, plant, and air that Zhaitan corrupts? The outcome is all the same, but the subject varies. Same goes with what Kralkatorrik corrupts – living beings, land, water, plant, and air – and what Jormag corrupts – living beings, corpses, land, water – and what Primordus corrupts – living beings, land, lava.

By all indication, Elder Dragons can corrupt anything (or nearly so – Foefire ghosts seem immune; Exalted are immune), but how that corruption takes form (death, ice, crystal, fire, plant) varies… and that variable matches the first domain they have.

Yes, there may be some overlap between the Elder Dragons’ domains – like the supposed domain of sky for Kralkatorrik including the fire of the sun (going off of the aspects the Zephyrites got from Glint’s magic) – but the subject of corruption is never shown to be part of the Elder Dragons’ domain.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Your comment is rather contradicting itself.

If “the living decaying” is the form the domain’s corruption takes, then it’s not “the corruption of corpses” that is the domain, because it means that both living and dead are turned into the corruption.

That’s not really a contradiction; only a specific circumstance. Magic can do more than one rigidly-defined thing. The domain of death can cover both; corrupting the living into a walking corpse, and raising the dead as Risen.

Look at the schools of magic, after all: they were never this rigidly defined. It would be like arguing that Rotting Flesh cannot be death magic, because death magic takes the form of messing with corpses.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan does it on a scale greater, but that doesn’t make rising corpses to be the domain – it’s just what he does more. If “domain of death” equated “domain of corrupting corpses” were the domain, then as I said (what you never addressed), then Jormag would have the domain of willing converts, and Kralkatorrik the domain of physical touch. Which makes no sense.

It makes no sense because I never actually did equate “domain of death” with “domain of corrupting corpses”. I argued that raising the dead as Risen would come under the purview of “death”, because it deals so heavily with death and the dead.

You seem to be excluding it because for the other dragons, the first domain reflects the physical manifestation of the corruption. Who’s to say that is necessarily always the case? That’s some very rigid extrapolation. It could broadly describe a type of magic they use to raise their armies, which often has more than one application. Grenth knows the variety of kinds of corruption and methodology differs hugely even for each dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Yes, there may be some overlap between the Elder Dragons’ domains – like the supposed domain of sky for Kralkatorrik including the fire of the sun (going off of the aspects the Zephyrites got from Glint’s magic) – but the subject of corruption is never shown to be part of the Elder Dragons’ domain.

Really? Sylvari/Mordrem Guard and Plant?

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

That’s not really a contradiction; only a specific circumstance. Magic can do more than one rigidly-defined thing. The domain of death can cover both; corrupting the living into a walking corpse, and raising the dead as Risen.

Look at the schools of magic, after all: they were never this rigidly defined. It would be like arguing that Rotting Flesh cannot be death magic, because death magic takes the form of messing with corpses.

Except death magic doesn’t take the form of messing with corpses. That’s what you’ve been saying until now – that’s what Taimi is saying.

What I’ve been saying is that death magic results in the decay and death of things, and the manipulation of death.

I am saying that magic is not rigidly defined. And that, by extension, the mere messing with corpses does not instantly label it as Death Magic.

Which is what Taimi is saying. “They copy corpses, so it must be death magic” is her conclusion, summarized into simplest form. And I’m saying that makes no sense, because messing with corpses can be done by non-death magic; death magic just result in corpse-like things (super simplification) but is not required for messing with corpses (even though that is death magic’s forte).

There is nothing that results in death and decay. There is the utilization of dead things, but why would plant magic be so rigid as to not be able to utilize a corpse? Is plant magic so rigidly defined?

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

It makes no sense because I never actually did equate “domain of death” with “domain of corrupting corpses”. I argued that raising the dead as Risen would come under the purview of “death”, because it deals so heavily with death and the dead.

You, actually, were – and so does Taimi.

Further, the thing is that Zhaitan is not raising the dead. All Elder Dragon corruption is – for every Elder Dragon – taking Material A and animating it into Material B.

Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, Primordus, Mordremoth, DSD, Jormag – they could all take a corpse (Material A) and change it into something else, but that ‘something else’ (Material will differ. Respectively it would be: Crystal, decayed flesh, fire/lava, plant, tentacles (best to our knowledge), and ice.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

You seem to be excluding it because for the other dragons, the first domain reflects the physical manifestation of the corruption. Who’s to say that is necessarily always the case?

Because it happens 100% of the time.

Whenever anything is touched by Zhaitan’s corruption, it results in poison and decay.

Whenever anything is touched by Jormag’s corruption, it results in ice.

Whenever anything is touched by Kralkatorrik’s corruption, it becomes crystalline.

This happens 100% of the time. Without question. Regardless of what’s corrupted.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Grenth knows the variety of kinds of corruption and methodology differs hugely even for each dragon.

Methologies vary – I outright stated this in my previous posts – but not the “kinds of corruption” if what you refer to is the outcome appearance. Every Elder Dragon has had one, singular, appearance for its corruption.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Really? Sylvari/Mordrem Guard and Plant?

Technically, nothing says that whatever the Pale Tree uses as materials to make sylvari is plants. It results in plants, because that’s Mordremoth’s domain.

Material A (Unknown in this case; Variable in general) becomes Material B (Plant in this case).

This is what I’ve been saying the entire time.

TL;DR

Dragon corruption can be summarized and defined in two sentences:

• Material A (Corrupted Victim) becomes Material B (Domain).
• Will of Material A (Corrupted Victim), if exists, is overridden by Will of Elder Dragon.

The outcome appearance is always the same. The enslavement of will always occurs (exception: purified dragon champions, e.g., Glint and Pale Tree(s)).

Taimi is claiming that because Material A was corpse, regardless of Material B, the Domain of Death was used (specifically: “Material A (corpse) becomes Material B (Plant), therefore Domain of Death used”); this does not fit the empirical evidence of every single situation of dragon corruption everywhere.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except death magic doesn’t take the form of messing with corpses. That’s what you’ve been saying until now – that’s what Taimi is saying.

What I’ve been saying is that death magic results in the decay and death of things, and the manipulation of death.

I am saying that magic is not rigidly defined. And that, by extension, the mere messing with corpses does not instantly label it as Death Magic.

Which is what Taimi is saying. “They copy corpses, so it must be death magic” is her conclusion, summarized into simplest form. And I’m saying that makes no sense, because messing with corpses can be done by non-death magic; death magic just result in corpse-like things (super simplification) but is not required for messing with corpses (even though that is death magic’s forte).

There is nothing that results in death and decay. There is the utilization of dead things, but why would plant magic be so rigid as to not be able to utilize a corpse? Is plant magic so rigidly defined?

That’s not what I’ve been saying until now. What I’ve been saying is that death magic can result in the decay and death of things; it can also have a host of other effects. I would certainly consider the reanimation of huge hosts of soldiers into Risen to be one such, since it deals so very heavily with death and the dead.

Other spheres of magic can utilise corpses, in certain circumstances. We never see any of them do it in even a fraction of the scale that Zhaitan does. That’s significant.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You, actually, were – and so does Taimi.

No, I wasn’t. I said it is involved with it. I did not “equate” it, which is an entirely different thing.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Because it happens 100% of the time.

Whenever anything is touched by Zhaitan’s corruption, it results in poison and decay.

Whenever anything is touched by Jormag’s corruption, it results in ice.

Whenever anything is touched by Kralkatorrik’s corruption, it becomes crystalline.

This happens 100% of the time. Without question. Regardless of what’s corrupted.

The physical manifestation reflects the first domain, yes, I know— but my point was that who’s to say that’s all the first domain can do? The first domain could have a host of other effects. Utilising the dead on mass would seem to be one of them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, nothing says that whatever the Pale Tree uses as materials to make sylvari is plants. It results in plants, because that’s Mordremoth’s domain.

Material A (Unknown in this case; Variable in general) becomes Material B (Plant in this case).

This is what I’ve been saying the entire time.

Sylvari were not under its control before the call. Afterwards, some were, and some were further corrupted and twisted into the Mordrem Guard. The subject in this case is the Sylvari, not whatever material went into making them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Taimi is claiming that because Material A was corpse, regardless of Material B, the Domain of Death was used (specifically: “Material A (corpse) becomes Material B (Plant), therefore Domain of Death used”); this does not fit the empirical evidence of every single situation of dragon corruption everywhere.

Well, that’s simplified. Mordremoth was not simply reconstituting the matter: the outcomes were copies, hosting the abilities too. We see something similar with Risen, hosting the abilities of their former selves, hunting their former comrades, and sometimes even having the shadow of their former awareness, like the Eyes.

And what I’ve been saying is that when utilized by an Elder Dragon and it’s minions, the domain of death has always resulted, undeniably and without question, the decay and rot of the subject corrupted.

Whether that subject was a fresh corpse, and ancient corpse that by all reason should be brittle bone, or living being – it resulted in a semi-rotting shambling corpse. Every. Single. Time. And it isn’t like Zhaitan only corrupts corpses in mass; we see him corrupt the living and landscape in mass, and when he does it results in diseases and decay of the living.

And when we see it in Primordus, what’s the result? Rotting stone, and poisoned flames.

The only thing that Mordremoth had in relation to this was the mordrem wyverns’s poison flames, but that could just be his plant’s poison mixing with the flames rather than deaths’ rot mixing with the flames. Beyond that, just the appearance of the adult mordrem wyverns.

Ultimately, there’s little to nothing among the mordrem where the result is showing off death magic. And that’s how every other situation – even the new destroyers – show their domain: the result of the corruption.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Sylvari were not under its control before the call. Afterwards, some were, and some were further corrupted and twisted into the Mordrem Guard. The subject in this case is the Sylvari, not whatever material went into making them.

The Pale Tree comes from Mordremoth, just as Glint comes from Kralkatorrik, just as Tequatl comes from Zhaitan. So the domains are shared. Doesn’t matter if the sylvari “were under its control” or not.

The sylvari were already part of the domain. They had to come from something. That something would be “Material A”.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Well, that’s simplified. Mordremoth was not simply reconstituting the matter: the outcomes were copies, hosting the abilities too. We see something similar with Risen, hosting the abilities of their former selves, hunting their former comrades, and sometimes even having the shadow of their former awareness, like the Eyes.

Icebrood and branded do the same… They retain their original capabilities, original knowledge, and tend to retain the same old hatreds and goals (prime, but far from sole, example: Chief Kronon ) All long before Zhaitan’s death.

Hell, even pre-S3 destroyers are (imperfect) copies of other creatures. It’s why we now call them Destroyer Crab/Troll/Harpy instead of “Destroyer of Sinew” and the like. Sadly, I prefer the old naming system.

Edit: Shortened for concision and lack of repetition.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And what I’ve been saying is that when utilized by an Elder Dragon and it’s minions, the domain of death has always resulted, undeniably and without question, the decay and rot of the subject corrupted.

Whether that subject was a fresh corpse, and ancient corpse that by all reason should be brittle bone, or living being – it resulted in a semi-rotting shambling corpse. Every. Single. Time. And it isn’t like Zhaitan only corrupts corpses in mass; we see him corrupt the living and landscape in mass, and when he does it results in diseases and decay of the living.

And when we see it in Primordus, what’s the result? Rotting stone, and poisoned flames.

The only thing that Mordremoth had in relation to this was the mordrem wyverns’s poison flames, but that could just be his plant’s poison mixing with the flames rather than deaths’ rot mixing with the flames. Beyond that, just the appearance of the adult mordrem wyverns.

Ultimately, there’s little to nothing among the mordrem where the result is showing off death magic. And that’s how every other situation – even the new destroyers – show their domain: the result of the corruption.

….Right. I’m not quite understanding the tone adopted here; I’m not disagreeing with anything written above, and nor have I done so before in this thread.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Pale Tree comes from Mordremoth, just as Glint comes from Kralkatorrik, just as Tequatl comes from Zhaitan. So the domains are shared. Doesn’t matter if the sylvari “were under its control” or not.

The sylvari were already part of the domain. They had to come from something. That something would be “Material A”.

The Pale Tree came from Mordremoth, sure.

It matters to my line of thinking whether the Sylvari were under Mordy’s control. Since they were not, and then the call— and subsequent further corruption of some, into Mordrem Guard— that would go to show that the subject of corruption was linked to Mordy’s domain.

He could affect them because they were of him. The subject mattered.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Icebrood and branded do the same… They retain their original capabilities, original knowledge, and tend to retain the same old hatreds and goals (prime, but far from sole, example: Chief Kronon ) All long before Zhaitan’s death.

Hell, even pre-S3 destroyers are (imperfect) copies of other creatures. It’s why we now call them Destroyer Crab/Troll/Harpy instead of “Destroyer of Sinew” and the like. Sadly, I prefer the old naming system.

The living retain memories; a corpse does not. Bringing a corpse back, abilities and memories with it, is far more than simply using the corpse itself as raw material. That screams death magic to me.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

….Right. I’m not quite understanding the tone adopted here; I’m not disagreeing with anything written above, and nor have I done so before in this thread.

Tried to edit it to not sound rude. I had been dealing with annoying folks shortly before writing it. But I would say it certainly does sound like you’re disagreeing, since what I’m ultimately saying is that the mordrem showed zero evidence of being influenced by death magic.

Further, I’m saying that death magic in Elder Dragon corruption in two out of three “supposed” cases was shown in the exact same manner – a change to physical appearance – regardless of the subject matter that was corrupted. Which the third, Mordremoth’s minions, never show – with one arguable exception that was not what Taimi claimed was the connection to death magic.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

He could affect them because they were of him. The subject mattered.

My point is that Material A isn’t “sylvari” but whatever the sylvari ultimately came from – likely local vegetation and dirt, if not the corpses buried where the Pale Tree was planted.

What Mordremoth did to sylvari wasn’t traditional “Material A turns into Material B” corruption, since they were already of his corruption – the whole “Material A turns into Material B” was already done. What happened to the sylvari who became mordrem guard was largely psychological rather than both that and physical (as is normal corruption).

Especially when we look at the Corrupted Sylvari in Verdant Brink which has zero physical change.

In this case, we do not see a subject change, which you implied we do earlier by saying “The subject in this case is the Sylvari, not whatever material went into making them.”

Material A is not “sylvari” in the situation of the Mordrem Guard. It’s whatever the sylvari were made from.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

The living retain memories; a corpse does not. Bringing a corpse back, abilities and memories with it, is far more than simply using the corpse itself as raw material. That screams death magic to me.

I would disagree that “a corpse does not”.

All icebrood we see, regardless of their supposed or known origins, have shown to retain their capabilities. Most icebrood norn (read: all generic ones) are exact duplicates of the generic Sons of Svanir in mechanics. If Jormag’s known to corrupt _some_corpses, then it would seem odd that all simpler icebrood would be only of living norn corrupted.

In fact, if memory serves me right, during Enraged and Unashamed we kill the quaggans… and then they become icebrood (almost as if them living and resisting Jormag’s corruption is the one thing that kept them from becoming corrupted), and they function no different than any quaggan.

Zhaitan in general kept individuals doing their past things and in turn retaining a kingdom which he ruled. I would place this more as a personal attribute of the dragon – all Elder Dragons have shown to have personality quirks, and Zhaitan’s is shown as “ruling his own kingdom” and “offering/granting the promises of eternal life and reunion with lost loved ones through undeath and enslavement” – rather than an attribute of death magic. After all, we never see this coming from the mordrem created by copying corpses or the living.

Calm down, Konig Des Todes,
by right of constitution it’s illegal to own people like that

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tried to edit it to not sound rude. I had been dealing with annoying folks shortly before writing it. But I would say it certainly does sound like you’re disagreeing, since what I’m ultimately saying is that the mordrem showed zero evidence of being influenced by death magic.

Further, I’m saying that death magic in Elder Dragon corruption in two out of three “supposed” cases was shown in the exact same manner – a change to physical appearance – regardless of the subject matter that was corrupted. Which the third, Mordremoth’s minions, never show – with one arguable exception that was not what Taimi claimed was the connection to death magic.

No worries, happens to the best of us.

I muddied my own point. I’m not at all denying that the first domain manifests physically in the corrupted minions; I’m only contending that we have no indisputable reason to believe that is necessarily all the first domain can do.

When the dragon exhibits a certain magical behaviour, which is heavily associated with that first domain, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to link the two. Mass animation of the dead— abilities and all, above and beyond mere reconstitution of matter— would seem to be that to me.

Essentially, we can only really appeal to precedent to dispute that. We have no iron-clad rule or ‘word of god’ (partially as a result of the woolly way in which magic has been discussed in-game).

I’m not arguing that manifesting physically in corruption is all the first domain can do, I’m saying that the first domain manifests physically every time without question – even in the only really confirmed case of an Elder Dragon taking on another’s first domain (or rather, two first domains manifests physically when an Elder Dragon takes on two other first domains).

And we don’t see it happen once with Mordremoth with him supposedly taking on Zhaitan’s first domain.