Guild Wars 2

I played my Personal Storyline. In Orr there is a quest where you have to find an Avatar of Grenth. Before you get to speak with him however you get to hear a bunch of Orrian ghosts/visions (you see the past and get to hear what these ghosts say) talking about how the Charr have invaded Ascalon.

- Is this lorebreak, or is it just me that misunderstood something along the way?

Could you quote the ghosts, or link the text from the GW2 wiki, or something? I looked up the Cathedral of Silence mission but couldn’t find any of these Ascalonian ghost sayings that you’re talking about.

- About 5:15 in you’ll hear them speak of it.
“The Charr are at the doorstep of Orr. They plan to Sear our nation as they did Ascalon.”

They also speak of Vizier Khilbron… maybe Orr wasn’t sunk back then…

I remember this dialogue, though I couldn’t remember where from.

Many ghosts we encounter in GW2 are “reliving” events of their lives (I remember one Ascalonian ghost “reliving” the events of the Great Northern Wall mission, for example).

It makes sense; I imagine these are the ghosts of Orrians reliving their fear at hearing about the Charr invasion of Ascalon, knowing that a Charr army is then heading to Orr. They probably perished in the Cataclysm.

Actually, in the GW2 Teaser Trailer it says that “100 years ago the drowned empire of Orr rose at a dragon’s command”.
- Much of the land that rose and can be seen on the map of GW2 is apparantly under water in GW1, but that might be due to some scaling issues from the first map to this.
- I’m not really sure of anything at this point. All those hours spent in GW1 and 2… my life is a lie. :P

How is that lore breaking? The Charr actually attacked Orr, which in turn was sunk by Vizir Khilbron with his magic. Before the Charr could get to Orr, they first had to break through the Great Northern Wall in Ascalon, which they also did in GW1, the event is called the Searing.

The 100 years mentioned in the teaser trailer is also correct, as the great flood and the rising of Orr happened about 100 years prior to GW2’s starting time. About 150 years after Orr sunk in the first place.

But these events are not present in Guild Wars 1, where we are together with Vizier Khilbron. I take it that is what he’s doing when not with the character then?
- It is just that we are in the Crystal Desert in Guild Wars 1 but no charrs there.

I’m merely asking, BuddhaKeks.

Sinifair.1026:

But these events are not present in Guild Wars 1, where we are together with Vizier Khilbron. I take it that is what he’s doing when not with the character then?
- It is just that we are in the Crystal Desert in Guild Wars 1 but no charrs there.

I’m merely asking, BuddhaKeks.

As already has been stated, the Charr did invade Orr during the Third Guild Wars, which lasted from 1013 to 1070 AE. In 1071 AE the Cataclysm happened which destroyed all the charr attacking Orr but also caused it to sink Orr to the bottom of the ocean.

At the time we were fighting in the Crystal Desert, Orr has already sunk and no charr were left. Also, if you look at the map of Tyria from Guild Wars 1 you can see there is no Orr on the map, only some small islands where Orr used to be, west of the Crystal Desert.

The sinking of Orr(Cataclysm) is supposed to have happened between pre-Searing and when you pick-up the storyline again in post-Searing Ascalon in GW1. I think it’s a 1-2 year difference, during which the Charr invaded both Kryta(traveling over the Shiverpeaks) and Orr(traveling south through Ascalon, the Crystal Desert, then west to Orr.

Orr was connected to the desert area back then(like it is now?). The Cataclysm happened with the Charr basically on the doorsteps of Arah, sinking it below the ocean and taking the Charr army with it. If you could have somehow seen a worldmap in pre-Searing, it would have shown Orr as a solid land mass I presume.

Either the authors didn’t think to give any evidence of the Charr passing through the Crystal Desert, or no evidence is found of it. Did anyone else see any reference to the Charr while in that Desert? I didn’t. :/ Maybe some npc’s spoke of it offhand. /shrug

Sinifair.1026:

But these events are not present in Guild Wars 1, where we are together with Vizier Khilbron. I take it that is what he’s doing when not with the character then?
- It is just that we are in the Crystal Desert in Guild Wars 1 but no charrs there.

I’m merely asking, BuddhaKeks.

They are, the sinking of Orr happens offscreen though. The Khilbron we meet is actually already an undead. He is the Undead Lich, not the living Vizier he used to be.

The thing, the player characters don’t know that at this point (a savvy player however does), so they trust him and see him as an ally when he really is the Flameseeker of the aptly named Flameseeker prophecy.

Yeah, I think people have settled things here rather well.

1. You start prophecies out in a time aptly labled “pre-searing” because it is the day before the searing occurs
2. When you leave pre-searing the searing occurs demolishing most of Ascalon, making the land unlivable, and the charr army crosses through thinking the Ascalonians broken.
3. The charr travel through Ascalon, the Crystal Desert (I always assumed the charr went through a part of the Crystal Desert we didn’t see, knowing that we didn’t see much), and arrive at the doors of the City of Arah
4. Vizier Khilbron performs magic from a scroll of magic found deep beneath the city of Arah. The magic shatters the peninsula, kills much of the charr army, and raises the citizens of Orr as an army of undead
5. You start the Post-Searing storyline, and the rest of the Guild Wars story happens from there.

Obsidian.1328:

The sinking of Orr(Cataclysm) is supposed to have happened between pre-Searing and when you pick-up the storyline again in post-Searing Ascalon in GW1.

^ and as Narcemus says. It can be a little confusing because all of the manuscript stuff more or less says that the Cataclysm and the sinking of Orr has happened in the past, but evidently they mean in the past from main game time. The Searing was the charr’s big push, and in the two years between pre-Searing and post-Searing in the game they kept rampaging. Thus Orr, Khilbron, and all of that. As said, it all happens offscreen and elsewhere so I had a hard time getting it straight in my head.

See my signature. ‘The last day dawns on the Kingdom of Ascalon’. Those words are the words the story starts with. Before the searing the great wall was keeping the char out. some got through but the mayority was kept behind it. After the events in pre-searing the actually searing happens wich destroyed the big wall and the char forces spread over the different lands. A big portion of them attacked Orr wich led to the Vizier (already influenced by the forgotten God) to cast the spell to sink Orr.

Narcemus.1348:

Yeah, I think people have settled things here rather well.

1. You start prophecies out in a time aptly labled “pre-searing” because it is the day before the searing occurs
2. When you leave pre-searing the searing occurs demolishing most of Ascalon, making the land unlivable, and the charr army crosses through thinking the Ascalonians broken.
3. The charr travel through Ascalon, the Crystal Desert (I always assumed the charr went through a part of the Crystal Desert we didn’t see, knowing that we didn’t see much), and arrive at the doors of the City of Arah
4. Vizier Khilbron performs magic from a scroll of magic found deep beneath the city of Arah. The magic shatters the peninsula, kills much of the charr army, and raises the citizens of Orr as an army of undead
5. You start the Post-Searing storyline, and the rest of the Guild Wars story happens from there.

Pretty much this. There’s no lorebreak – the “ghosts” (they aren’t actually ghosts but etheric memories given shape or some such – ask an asura to explain that to you) are reliving a moment before the Cataclysm which occurred a full year after the Searing.

I don’t think it’s confirmed the charr went through the Crystal Desert (they could have just traveled along the foothills of the Shiverpeak Mountains and crossed the land bridge that is now Izz-al-adin), but they assaulted Orr after they caused the Searing in Ascalon, the group assaulting Orr having gone through Ascalon.

It seems the issue is that you (mister OP) believed that Orr never sunk. Which would be wrong – in fact, it seems based on the ruins that much of Orr is still underwater – the outer edges of the western and eastern/northeastern sides at least, and it seems that Orr was connected directly to the Shiverpeak Mountains and not just by a shallow island chain.

Narcemus.1348:

Yeah, I think people have settled things here rather well.

1. You start prophecies out in a time aptly labled “pre-searing” because it is the day before the searing occurs
2. When you leave pre-searing the searing occurs demolishing most of Ascalon, making the land unlivable, and the charr army crosses through thinking the Ascalonians broken.
3. The charr travel through Ascalon, the Crystal Desert (I always assumed the charr went through a part of the Crystal Desert we didn’t see, knowing that we didn’t see much), and arrive at the doors of the City of Arah
4. Vizier Khilbron performs magic from a scroll of magic found deep beneath the city of Arah. The magic shatters the peninsula, kills much of the charr army, and raises the citizens of Orr as an army of undead
5. You start the Post-Searing storyline, and the rest of the Guild Wars story happens from there.

Yeah, it does say “Two years later” after you are done with the Pre-Searing of Ascalon.
- I think I just presumed, since the ascalonians were still fighting off the Charr after the Searing, that things just got more intense and that Orr had been destroyed Pre-Searing as well.

Anyhow, thank you guys for settling this for me.

I cant recall exactly who states this in Gw1 but it may be Pyre Fierceshot..

“The Humans Blew Orr into the ocean and oblivion rather than allow the Charr to over take it. I view that as a compliment.”

I could be paraphrasing.. it’s been a while.

Regardless, The Searing is the event which begins the whole story for Gw1. It begins with Ascalon, destroying the great wall and much of the city, burning away the lush land to ash and mud and dirt. It turned water into foul lakes of Oil and left the land pot marked with Massive Crystals.

As stated in much of the original Gw1 lore (See the wiki, players handbook, etc) The charr pushed past Ascalon, Determined to keep humanity out of their turf forever and went straight to their cultural heart in Orr. They laid Siege to the city of Arah some time shortly after all but squashing ascalon. Vizur Kildebran sought to defend the city and used magic from the forbidden scrolls locked away in the vaults of Arah (some of Abbadons Magic) and perhaps, unwittingly and much to Abbadons amusement, Sent Orr to the bottom of the sea (this did not turn the nation into an army of undead as stated above, that was Zhaitan…). This event, Gave the name to the Sea of Sorrows.

Unrelated, the Charr also sought to eradicate Humanity from Kyrta, causing the king there to flee for his life. With Sal’De Asalo (name check) and the Help of the Muursat, the charr were defeated and never reached Lions Arch. This gave rise to the White Mantle being the heads of power in Kyrta and thus setting up events for the events following in Gw1 as well as Queens Salma retaking the thrown many years later.

Actually, we don’t know that the conversion of Orr’s citizens into undead at the time of GW1 was related to Zhaitan – Zhaitan was still asleep at the time of, and according to the lore team pretty much did not even notice the Cataclysm.

It’s commonly theorised that the Cataclysm tapped into Zhaitan’s power, but it’s also possible that it’s just coincidence. It has been noted that of the dragons, Zhaitan had an unusually easy time of establishing itself because it had a ready-made undead army already there for it to take over when it awoke, and that’s part of the reason why Zhaitan is the most aggressive of the dragons in the GW2 storyline.

Incidentally, when it comes to the Prophecies manual being written from a post-searing perspective – there’s a fairly simple explanation for this. Presearing was the last part or close to the last part of Prophecies to be made, when ArenaNet decided to have a tutorial area and that it would help players connect to Ascalon better if they saw it when it was still lush rather than being dropped straight into the ruins. It’s quite likely that the manual was written before they decided to put presearing in at all.

Swish.2463:

Vizur Kildebran sought to defend the city and used magic from the forbidden scrolls locked away in the vaults of Arah (some of Abbadons Magic) and perhaps, unwittingly and much to Abbadons amusement, Sent Orr to the bottom of the sea (this did not turn the nation into an army of undead as stated above, that was Zhaitan…). This event, Gave the name to the Sea of Sorrows.

Actually, the Lost Scrolls is just said to contain magic from before the Bloodstone’s creation – though this is said with the belief that said Bloodstones were made in 1 BE.

Regarding Zhaitan causing the original Orrian undead – to elaborate on what drax said, it was Jeff Grubb who said that the Cataclysm had no effect on Zhaitan. Furthermore, the GW1 Orrian undead act VASTLY different than the Risen, and as shown by Svanir even if the Elder Dragon is sleeping, the mentality of its minions remains the same.

So there’s more evidence to it not being related to Zhaitan than there is for the original Orrian undead to have been. Zhaitan is said to have taken over the original Orrian undead as well, after all.

A few thoughts. The Lich Lord was created from Vizier Khilbron by the Cataclysm. We don’t know how, but we know that at that point in time he changed from being a mere mortal to a lich. As well, Vizier Khilbron seems to have the power to control the undead. Our player characters only saw him doing this when he held the Scepter of Orr, but in some of the cut scenes, his Lich form seemed to be able to control them without the scepter. Because of this, I would say, personally, that the undead of Orr are the creations of the Lich Lord. Now you may ask, “What if the Lich Lord was a dragon champion?” Well to that I would say, Vizier Khilbron had too much personality, and he was able to think freely. He did not have the normal brainwashed stance other champions are shown to have. Furthermore, we see his soul in Lich form in the gates of madness helping Abaddon. This isn’t sealing proof, but it rings true to me that he was not a minion of Zhaitan.

It’s actually confirmed that the Vizier doesn’t need the Sceptre of Orr to control the undead – he only claimed that the Sceptre of Orr gave him that power to stop the PCs from getting suspicion that he had been controlling the undead the whole time and, thus, shouldn’t be trusted.

It’s also questionable if the other power attributed to the Sceptre – control over the titans – is genuine or whether Abaddon simply gave the titans orders to obey the holder of the Sceptre.

Actually, you’re slightly off there. There’s (albeit minor) indication that Khilbron was the vizier in 1016 AE (which would put him at the age of over 56 in Prophecies, but doesn’t look like such to me), or alternatively Orr had a line of corrupt necromancer viziers who were capable of making powerful undead. Fendi Nin at the end of the Second Great Corsair War made a deal with the vizier of Orr that made him into a sort of pseudo-lich.

Also just to note: All champions have personality (those which were once a single living being at least), though they still all hold devotion to their dragon (which, as both of us noted, Khilbron lacks fully).

I honestly could believe that the Vizier was a really youthful looking 56 year old. He did have quite a bit of grey and given the right level of activity and such I could count it as believable. Heck we never even see him walk in the game, just teleports using his scepter.

So you’d believe that he turned Fendi Nin into an undead capable of returning to his body upon death when he was born/not even a year old? :P

I’d say he’d have to be at least 65 – though I cannot see a 9 year old vizier. Maybe vizier apprentice if such existed.

The Searing happens in the year 1070 and you jump 2 years forward to 1072 when accepting a certain quest in Pre-Searing. During those 2 years the Charr did not concentrate on Ascalon as it seems, but went on to assault both Kryta and Orr on behalf of their gods, and through them, on behalf of Abbadon. It seems like they split their army in two and left some forces in Ascalon. Their armies got wiped out both in Kryta and Orr, by the White Mantle in Kryta (in fact by their masters, the Mursaat) and through the Cataclysm in Orr. Shows how much Abbadon cared for them by letting them get wiped out through something he himself made possible.

The Charr needed 2 years to recover from those losses, till they assaulted Ascalon again, and you witness that happening in the first mission The Great Northern Wall when the Charr army pours through the wall again. Some ghosts in Ascalon have to relive that exact moment again and again.

This is how i explained what happened to myself, such things are not fully explained in GW1. Ingame one does not hear all about what happened in Kryta and Orr during those 2 years…

And about Khilbron, i thought he was a friendly and completely trustworthy fellow when i met him (sarcasm).

It seems that only one centurion went towards Kryta (possibly a Tribune though), and I’d presume the same for Orr – though maybe a bit more since they brought Searing cauldrons (which they didn’t seem to have to Kryta). Those two kingdoms were “secondary targets” for the charr. So there wasn’t really much a split and the charr were constantly pressuring Ascalon after the Searing.

“Killing too many Charr alerts the entire army. Avoid unnecessary combat.” (Rise of the White Mantle), based on that i assumed it was an army and not a century that invaded Kryta. And the force one sees during Great Northern Wall did not look exactly like an army to me, but i assume it is supposed to represent one. And tell me if i am wrong, but didn’t the Charr defeat the Krytan army when invading Kryta? I am not sure a century could have managed that.

And since the Charr saw humanity as an infestation they would have tried to exterminate all of it, for which some considerable forces are needed, especially when taking on all 3 human kingdoms more or less at once.

Furthermore, i assumed that Abaddon wanted to see humanity exterminated as well, for he could not strike back at the gods, so he targeted what they protected, humanity (besides humanity protecting the gods more than the other way around, against Dhuum, Menzies and Abaddon).

On the question of age – magic in Tyria does seem to be able to keep people younger than their age would suggest. Adelbern, for instance, fights quite well in the Titan Quests for someone who’s canonically over 60… and he’s not a spellcaster himself. Khilbron, on the other hand – who knows what magic he’s used to extend his lifespan, or how long he’d been using the glamour that made him appear still relatively youthful even after his transformation into a lich?

When it comes to the charr assault on Orr – my impression had always been that the majority of the charr army blitzkreiged through Ascalon – figuring it was doomed anyway – to be destroyed in the Cataclysm. It was thus the Cataclysm that allowed Ascalon to hold on for another two decades, enough time for Ebonhawke and the Foefire to keep a vestige of Ascalon holding on for another two centuries and more after that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It seems that only one centurion went towards Kryta (possibly a Tribune though), and I’d presume the same for Orr – though maybe a bit more since they brought Searing cauldrons (which they didn’t seem to have to Kryta). Those two kingdoms were “secondary targets” for the charr. So there wasn’t really much a split and the charr were constantly pressuring Ascalon after the Searing.

Actually I suspect most of the Charr army was driven on towards Orr. In the Realm of Torment a Charr shamam says “Always toward Arah, where the gods once lived. All that awaited us there was death. What sort of god would lead its people to destruction?”

To me, that suggests that Ascalon was just in the way. The titan’s, and Abaddon’s, target was Arah from the very start. The Charr was simply the means for Abaddon to let his servant use a forbidden spell.

Im curious though weither Abaddon targeted Arah because he saw Orr as a threat to him breaking free or for some other purpose. Regardless, the whole charr invasion was quite likely just to set up the scenario that caused the Cataclysm.

I believe it is mentioned many times that the reason for the attack on Arah was because Abaddon was kitten and he wanted to destroy the city of the gods that the others worked so hard to create.

@Frosch: " Survive Charr retribution. You have triumphed against [0..4] of 4 warbands."

That mission actually claims there were only five warbands (one per camp; the one where Rox wasn’t in the objective that I quoted) despite the numbers showing this was obviously not true. A Centurion leads a company – that’s 80-250 soldiers usually, which would be an average of 4 to 50 warbands (depending on the size of the warbands – warbands can range from 5 to 20 soldiers on average).

So a single Centurion – or even a Primus Centurion (a centurion given order to lead a handful of other centurions) – seems highly plausible. I wouldn’t doubt that Rox Ashreign was a primus centurion leading War Ashenskull and Anrak Tindershot who were centurions. However, given the number of leaders we fight there, it seems to me that Rox was a centurion and the others simply legionnaires.

The word “army” simply refers to land military units. Numbers in an army doesn’t really matter, so even a single century can be considered an army.

While the charr did see humans as an infestation, it’s more that they saw them as such due to humans taking Ascalon. Ascalon was the charr’s main purpose, and given how Abaddon had human followers still, I doubt that he wanted to wipe them all out. In both the charr’s and Titan’s view, Kryta was most likely just a tritary target. With Orr and Ascalon being primary and secondary for each (Ascalon being primary for the charr, but secondary for the Titans, and vice versa).

@Lutinz: That line doesn’t really show that a majority of the charr’s military might (which would, in fact, be most of the charr’s population given their culture) went to Orr. Also, the fact that the charr was an excuse for Khilbron to use the spell (or rather, a threat to pressure him into using it) would show that Abaddon wouldn’t care to force the majority of the charr population to Arah – he’d just need enough.

There’s really no indication for how many charr went to Orr, however given the fact that the charr were going to cause a Searing in Orr, I doubt they’d send most of their people on a suicide mission. What was in Orr was likely just a small blitzkreig assault akin to what’s seen in pre-Searing Ascalon.

As to why Abaddon wanted to sink Orr – probably for the same reason Shiro Tagachi caused that plague. A mass of souls causes imbalance between the worlds – and likely the Mists, which would make Nightfall all the more easier. Furthermore, it’d be a step in causing the Flameseeker Prophecies to occur, thus unleashing the Door of Komalie and the Titans – and The Fury was sitting in preparation for such a thing to occur, so we know they knew it would happen.

@Narcemus: I don’t think it was ever mentioned why Abaddon wanted Arah destroyed – only that the Titans sent the charr there, and that Terrick tricked Khilbron, a follower of Abaddon already, into using the Lost Scrolls.

Konig, those five warbands are just the five that happened to be in the area of the invasion commander’s camp. It probably represented a significant concentration of troops, but there’s nothing in the Rise of the White Mantle mission to suggest that the entirety of the Krytan invasion force was there, just that it was a decisive battle. Odds are that there were other charr forces elsewhere along the front, and that the charr invasion force had suffered some attrition already up to that point. It’s just that the White Mantle survived the loss of a leader better than the charr did.

I’d estimate that Rox was probably a tribune rather than a centurion. That said, though, it is worth noting that the majority of his camp was Ash – this could simply be that it was Rox Ashreign’s personal command, but it could be an indication that the invasion of Kryta was primarily an Ash operation. This suggests two things – being Ash, it’s likely that there were a lot of agents deeper into Kryta (maybe the old king of Kryta had reason to be afraid despite the official front being so far off… or maybe he didn’t actually run but got assassinated, and the operatives in question made it look like he ran to avoid creating a martyr). Second, an Ash operation would make it less likely that the invasion was intended to be a true invasion, and more that it was intended to keep Kryta too distracted to interfere with the primary objectives of Ascalon and Orr.

That mission is made to look like it is the front lines. Hence the attack and defense on Demetra. At least it did to me.

Doesn’t mean that it was the only place being attacked along the front line, or that the legion known for infiltration, assassination and sabotage hadn’t slipped as many forces as it could behind the lines to sow chaos and terror.

I wasn’t disagreeing with the insurgency possibility (hell, they managed to do that in Ascalon despite the Great Northern Wall). Rather, I was simply stating that the strait of land between the two Giant’s Basin seems to have been where the front line was – and somehow, I don’t think that they were going around/through the Giant’s Basins.