Guild Wars 2

Hi! I was reading about the lore of magic and how it is within everything and in every being in Tyria. The lore section on magic talks about how some beings are born without magic, which is not common. My question regards warriors. Besides signets do they have access to magic in a different way? I am wondering if the adrenalin mechanic is meant to be like an “inner” magic that helps improve their healing, strength, skills, etc. as time goes when they are in battle. Or do they not have a connection to magic? What do you all think? Is there an explanation somewhere? Thank you for taking the time to read this!

There is a good example of a warrior using his warrior magic with a hammer in Sea of Sorrows. I’ll type it up tomorrow night if no one beast me to it.

@Dustfinger: If I’m recalling what you’re talking about right, wasn’t that a guardian with a mace (you’re thinking of Osh Moran, right?)

@Firestarr: Typically there is no clear-cut case of warriors using magic, but unlike Engineers they’re never said to not be using magic. At best, their magic – if they use it – would be body strengthening innate spells; a prime example of what such would be, is Rampage.

This said, everyone is said to have magic; it’s just a question of using it or not.

Perhaps pure Warriors are just weaker at external magic (i.e. Magic you can see and feel) than others?

so their usage of it is more limited?

@Konig: Well said. I was thinking the same. I find it interesting… In game mechanic terms a warrior seems like a cross between wolverine and the hulk. Maybe he is using an innate power. Maybe not…

Given they send shockwaves through the ground, have signets, can stomp the ground to send surrounding foes flying through the air – yes, their maneuvers alone suggest magical interaction.

About to go to work but the example I am thinking of is when Cobiah Marriner followed the three Krytan sabotuers down to the life boat. The ones that blew up LA’s docks as it was being surrounded by kryta. He fought a hammer wielding warrior that did seem to be using magic. He sent a shockwave through the ground and another time sent one through the air throwing Cobiah back. And if I recall correctly, the attack that threw him back through the air didn’t even touch him with the actual hammer. Just the shock wave.

And example of a warrior that didn’t seem to use magic was the asura warrior on the captains council. He also wielded a hammer but when the council fought the charr he used the distractions provided by Cobiah to fight effectively. Then going on to state that he “fights like an asura”. (I assume he meant he fights smart)

Use spoiler tags please, Dustfinger.

Icdan, the book’s been out for nearing a year now. It’s pretty expectant that there’d be story spoilers. :P

Anyway Dustfinger, just looked it up and there’s mention of a “bandit elementalist” amongst the group. 1 warrior with a hammer, two others with daggers, and an elementalist (who cast spells one can recognize in gameplay even). There is a scene where the warrior does slam the ground and dust and rocks fly up though:

Near the roowboat, the brigand with the mallet had been planning an attack of his own. He swung the hammer over his head to gain speed, and as his companion fell, the scruffy-looking warrior slammed it down. The earth and sand beneath the pier rumbled from the mighty force of the blow. An explosion of earth and rocks burst up in all directions, showing Cobiah and the rest with blinding sand.

It’s honestly hard to tell whether this is magic, or just very very powerful brute strength. Every other case of magic in the novel mentions incantations and special stances for each individual spell (which Cobiah used at times to predict and dodge spells).

The other attack you mention that threw Cobiah back sounds more like he just got struck to me, but left ambiguous:

Intending to throw himself forward to join the fight, Cobiah raised his sword and lunged forward – but where he expected to fly to the boy’s aid, his body suddenly refused to obey. A second wave of force from the scruffy-looking bandit’s hammer knocked him back again, and Cobiah found himself stumbling, pushed back aside […]

In either case, those are really the only two attacks the warrior had, and both times he had a lot of preparation for such, so I’d say that if he’s using magic (a good chance but nothing explicit), then he can’t use it well and isn’t casting spells but strengthening himself.

That’s the one! yeah, It does seem like any magic a warrior would have is more primevil than the typical sigils and incantations. Kind of how the devs described guardian powers to elementalists. They are probably less casting spells and more channeling magic power into their attacks to bolster them.

Dustfinger.9510:

That’s the one! yeah, It does seem like any magic a warrior would have is more primevil than the typical sigils and incantations. Kind of how the devs described guardian powers to elementalists. They are probably less casting spells and more channeling magic power into their attacks to bolster them.

where can I find this?

I was wondering that too.

I do recall Thruln the Lost calling elementalism “primitive” magic casting, but that’s the only case other than bitter professional rivalry for calling one form of magic older than another (well, aside from how recent the guardian profession is).

“The Elementalist casts discrete spells, and you have the feeling that there is a heritage and body of knowledge behind those spells. Guardians seem to use magical energy in the heat of combat, from the front line.”

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/31/behind-the-scenes-with-the-guild-wars-2-guardian-massivelys-in/

edit: so it’s not so much that the form of magic is older but the way it’s channeled is more primevil.

Take the paragraph in full, and you’ll get a different idea than those two sentences alone:

I think the Guardian is much more of a pragmatic and tactical user of a magic as opposed to an Elementalist, who is a pure student of magic. The Elementalist casts discrete spells, and you have the feeling that there is a heritage and body of knowledge behind those spells. Guardians seem to use magical energy in the heat of combat, from the front line. That sense of immediacy sets the Guardian apart from more traditional spell-casters and allows for a heavily armored magical character.

Alone it sounds like guardians don’t put thought into their magic while elementalists do; but Jeff’s opening line changes this: Guardian is much more of a pragmatic and tactical user of a magic.

Sounds more like he’s making a difference between guardians using magic in a much faster pace and thus they appear simpler but they’re used in more complex ways due to being in the thick of combat; while the elementalist has the time to make the magic be more complex due to being further away (read: ranged).

The concept does give explanation to why dagger elementalist skills are more direct (lines of fire or PBAoE blasts, etc.) as they’re more up-front than the other weapon skills which are also more intricately appearance.

I do not get anything about one being more “primeval” than another. Just that one is simpler due to being used faster, while the other is more complex due to having more time to shape it.

One can use the same comparison between guardians and either mesmers or necromancers, as guardian magic tends to take the shape of rays or fields of light (and sometimes, rarely, fire) that damages, absorbs, reflects, and/or heals. Whereas the other professions have a larger variety of things (shaping into the various elements, and different forms at that; creating detailed copies of things, or bending time and reality, or even affecting one’s mind directly; turning the air foul and diseased (to use SoS’s description) or animating inanimate (fleshy) objects). The most complex guardian skills are actually Spirit Weapons, come to think of it.

I look at the contrast of heritage and body of knowledge as opposed to what the guardian has. it doesn’t mean the guardian magic isn’t refined or lacks thought. But without a needed learned heritage or body of knowlege behind it it seems like it is more tied to the human (charr/asura/etc) condition. rather than pure schooling. Which makes it more primevil. it is accessed in the heat of combat. Combat is as ancient as humanity in RL. It has a practical application which makes it pragmatic. Pure students of any schooling in delicate and complicated matters however, isn’t so ancient or primitive. violence seems to be more core than learning for the sake of learning.

it seems to me it is similar to boxing. Boxing is a martial sport. refined over centuries into a highly effective artform. The basis for it however really just boils down to hitting somebody with your fists in order to bring your opponent to his doom. Nobody needs to teach children how to hit with their fists. It’s natural. it’s a core that can be refined into something greater without losing it’s core identity.

The very thing that would make guardian magic simpler is what makes it primevil. Things are simpler when they are tied closer to what comes naturally. e.g.: it is simpler for an ape to hit with it’s fists while it is simpler for a dog to bite.

I’m not seeing your logic with the primeval bit. Guardians lack heritage and a body of knowledge so it is more human and thus more primeval?

I think you’re mixing up wording – or I just don’t get what your saying. I think you’re wanting primitive, not primeval. Primeval is ancient, old, etc. Something that a profession with heritage would be more likely to be than one which lacks heritage.

And I don’t see how being more human would tie to either.

And your whole “violence is ancient and natural” is a very philosophical – and thus unprovable – thing. But guardians are a very modern profession as is their use of magic, as before it was in the form of monks, ritualists, and paragons’ magic – which were all far closer to the other spellcasting professions than guardians are. Except arguably paragon.

So I’m just not seeing guardians as either primeval or primitive or whathaveyou, regardless of whether or not fighting is primitive and natural.

By the by, in Tyria, magic is ancient, natural, and innate to everything. People use it as instinctive self defense mechanisms. So it is no different than pulling a punch really. Anyone can kick and scream, and everyone can instinctly use a bit of magic when in a bind. But in both cases you can learn to improve each – be it via martial arts or weapons training or spellcasting training. And thus your argument, I would say, hits a bump there too.

yeah. I suppose what I was remembering was the overall tone of what I read rather than the devs explicitly saying that they are more primevil. However, I think I may not be explaining the concept clearly. Even though magic as a whole is inate in Tyria, it doesn’t mean all forms are just naturally known. as you said, the guardian is a very modern profession. And as the devs said, we get a feel of the heritage and body of knowledge behind the elementalist. So there is a difference inconcepts that I am speaking on. rather than simply addressing “magic is natural in Tyria” which is known.

In order for the elementalist to have a heritage and a body of knowledge, it seems there would have to have been an evolution of the magic knowledge into what it is today. Some sort of evolution and development. that is the heritage behind schooling. We do know that while most everyone has magic today, the ways of accessing it are extremely varied.

So while magic is innate, the training for elementaists or any other profession isn’t.

I chose the word primevil specifically because of it’s primitive ancient connotation. Primitive and primeval are not mutually exclusive. Primeval refers to a most basic and original form of something. Not simply an old history the way a heritage implies. So you are very correct that my post had heavy philosophical overtones. Pimeval is a synoym of primordial. meaning “the first form”.

So to clarify, I’m not saying that guardians are an old proffession. I’m saying the way they access magic seems to be more basic and closer to the natural way a person is born with than an elementalist who learns this “great body of knowledge” with a great “heritage” behind their spells. As opposed to simply using “magical energy”. That’s how a profession can be fairly new while still having primeval methods.

The old pen and paper RPG game Mage, had what they called coincidental magic, versus vulgar magic. Vulgar magic was fireballs, bolts of lightning, and other obvious forms of magic. Coincidental magic was less obvious. Things that seemed like improbable feats, but weren’t as showy.

Most warrior skills, like shouts, stances, banners or even unnatural strength or speed could be seen as coincidental magic.

Wanderer.3248:

The old pen and paper RPG game Mage, had what they called coincidental magic, versus vulgar magic. Vulgar magic was fireballs, bolts of lightning, and other obvious forms of magic. Coincidental magic was less obvious. Things that seemed like improbable feats, but weren’t as showy.

Most warrior skills, like shouts, stances, banners or even unnatural strength or speed could be seen as coincidental magic.

That reminds me of a book I read. “The Dawn People”. Based in pre European North America, there’s a witch who is known for her evil magic. But the way magic works is that it’s so subtle that you wonder if it is even real while reading. (No ‘vulgar magic’ as you say) With the only real confirmation being the ghost of her dead twin following her around trying to right the wrongs she causes.

I like how the focus is on only warriors, and noone brought up rangers and engineers

flipyap.5789:

I like how the focus is on only warriors, and noone brought up rangers and engineers

We know rangers use magic, and we know engineers don’t. There’s really nothing to focus on there.

Rangers have a lot nature magic which is not really comparable. Their shouts only affect pet until traited. I think their magic isn’t comparable to warrior.

Engineer use skills from other classes, partially based on RNG, partially direct accessible. They use magitech which probably is connected to synergetics and connects several magics in itself. Their magic works in contradiction to chaos magic, because it has certain possibilities while chaos is less predictable.

The warrior themselfes maybe use a form of aggression magic, since their power rises with more aggression in the battle and that is maybe the way to access it.

Engineers are actually outright stated to not utilize magic. Instead, they use (al)chemical compounds that mimic or create magical effects for them.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Rangers have a lot nature magic which is not really comparable. Their shouts only affect pet until traited. I think their magic isn’t comparable to warrior.

Shouts is a pretty nitpicky thing to look at, especially as shouts can be purely nonmagical and, for the ranger, half of the point of shouts is to give them a crude level of additional pet control beyond that granted by the F1-F4 keys.

I may be misinterpreting what you’re saying here, but to me it’s clear that rangers have more magic than warriors, or at least more overt magic – they can summon spirits, call vines from the earth to entangle their enemies, freeze an axe before throwing it, many of their melee attacks are clearly invoking animal spirits in some manner, and while the traps could theoretically be nonmagical, they’re a lot easier to explain if you assume a little magic in their makeup.

Of the two, rangers seem more magical to me. Of course, as has been said earlier in this thread, warriors may well be using a bit of magic to augment their fighting abilities. Rangers do so as well, but it’s just that much more obvious that magic is being invoked when you see a bear or serpent superimposed over the ranger as they strike.

The magic in Tyria seems to have evolved. I don’t know how to work with the 4 schools of magic in GW1, but they are able to evolve and some people seem to have worked on developing new magic from the old ones.

Let’s take for example the aspects from the Zephyrites which are high developed form of one magic, air magic (it was mentioned from an NPC in Zephyr Sanctum ambience). And this is comprehensible, because air magic involves light, wind and lightning.

The old schools of magic seem to be still around, but have evolved to several specialized forms and now is the turn to figure out how many different there are around. I am working with 8 at the moment, because the class design shows heavy differences that could fit.

The ranger is a magical user, but doesn’t affect anything else but his pets with a shout. He has a close bonds to his pet/animals and nature. His magic seems aligned to nature magic and it’s specialized forms.

The engineer has a separate position and can access abilities from several classes. He is not known to use magic, but can combine things to create a certain function. It is not very reliable, since some of his contructions can produce result a or b (especially elixirs). I would put him to a non magic, but magic related school. The fifth bloodstone is the key stone which was necessary for the other bloodstone, so the best words I have for it is magic-key or synergetics. At least this direction. Remember that everything is magic in Tyria, even if just used in a technical way (mists, life, fire, stone).

Now the warrior get his power with agression. He has some magical abilities, but they are mostly related to aggressive action. Counter part to this may be the guardian which denies enemy action and would probably fit an evolved version of denial.

All of this could be a wrong interpretation, but since nobody seems to know how it’s setted I just give my 5 cents into the discussion. Every enlightment helps.

The theory about Zephyrite magic being specialised air magic comes from an asura, and is that asura’s speculation. It actually turns out that the crystals are part of Glint’s legacy and are a safe form of dragon magic, unrelated to bloodstone magic.

It’s unclear how much magic-users are still reliant on bloodstone magic, but if anything, it’s actually easier to match classes to bloodstones in GW2:

Aggression: Necromancer, Warrior (in GW1, we saw a lot of necromancer skills manipulating adrenaline, suggesting that adrenaline is linked to Aggression – although note that this is the most tenuous connection)
Denial: Mesmer, Thief
Destruction: Elementalist, Ranger (you seem to have missed my above post, but rangers have a LOT of elemental effects reminiscent of the elementalist: Winter’s Bite, Healing Spring (they actually invented the concept of conjuring healing water), frost and flame traps, and the Sun, Storm, Stone and Frost Spirits are all essentially elemental spirits and can be compared to elementalists conjuring true elementals.)
Preservation: Guardian.

Engineers don’t use magic directly, but exploit latent magic in the chemicals and materials they use.