Guild Wars 2

Malyck remains, for all of us, enigmatic. We know some things about him, but not enough to come to many definite conclusions about his role in the development of the identity of the Sylvari race. One definite conclusion is obvious: Malyck does not come from the Pale Tree, ergo another Tree exists. Malyck believes that he knows where he comes from and so we can surmise that he comes from west of the Grove, somewhere deeper in the heart of the Maguuma Jungle. He was deposited by a river and so it follows that if we can trace the course of that waterway we will eventually meet his Tree. Although Malyck is considered to be Sylvari (at least physiologically) it is surprising to learn that he has not participated in the Dream. (He exclaims, “My tree has no dream.”) This is startling, as it seems impossible that another Tree could exist that does not possess the same ability to perceive the natural world through it’s fruit. This ability is, of course, one of the foremost perculiarities of the Dream – a shared consciousness between Tree and fruit (and possibly even between Tree and ecosystem.) This leaves us all puzzled over the possible explanations for Malyck’s Tree’s dreamless state. A number of differing theories will henceforth be presented:

1) Malyck’s Tree has made a decision to withdraw from the Dream
Like the Soundless, Malyck’s Tree has rejected the Dream. With this decision comes a weakening (if not severing) of the links between Tree and fruit. A link may still exist, however, if only residual, as Malyck is able to intuitively determine that his Tree does not have a Dream, suggesting that he nonetheless was able to perceive, in some way, the consciousness of his Tree (he also refers loosely to his “people” again suggesting that he is able to perceive the presence of other beings that have come from his Tree). If Malyck’s Tree is indeed like the Soundless in this regard, it seems unusual that the Pale Tree waa not aware of it’s existence since Malyck’s Tree would have participated in the Dream, at least for a short time. Of course, it may be that each Tree “dreams” differently and that the substance of each dream is closely linked to the personality of the Tree in question. Thus, two Trees have completely different dreams that do not overlap, so that neither percieves the other through their Dream. If this is the case, we could argue that Malyck’s Tree has rejected a “Dream state” unique to that species of sentient tree.

2) Malyck’s Tree is dead
It could be that Malyck cannot perceive “Dream” because his Tree is dead. Sylvari gain access to the Dream through the Pale Tree and so in speculating that Malyck’s Tree is dead, we are ultimately seeking an answer to the question: “What would happen to Sylvari if the Pale Tree were to die?”

3) Malyck’s Tree is “wild”
The Tree has not been nurtured into existence in the same way that the Pale Tree has. This means that Malyck’s Tree does not have the same kind of personality (attributes and so on) – nor has it developed anywhere near the kind of empathetic bond that the Pale Tree has not only with Sylvari in general but also all living beings (such as humans, charr, norn etc etc). This might partially go toward explaining why Sylvari are emotionally stunted as it is not normal for them to feel emotion. In speculating thus, we are ultimately seeking an answer to the question: “What would happen if a plant were to become emotionally aware?”

4) Malyck’s Tree produces fertile Sylvari
The Pale Tree may be unique in her role producing Sylvari influenced by the Dream. These Sylvari (and the Pale Tree too) are parthenocarpic in nature – they require some kind of intervention to reproduce. A real world example would be cultivated bananas which are unable to produce viable seeds. In this case the reproduction of the plant involves removing and transplanting part of the banana’s stem. To push this further, consider that initially the banana is wild but is somehow domesticated (or “cultivated” if you will) and that it is at this point that the nature of it’s reproductive cycle changes. This is almost exactly what has happened to the Pale Tree. An act of intervention (by Ronan) has led to the development of a different (cultivated) variety of Sylvari who do not reproduce. This does not explain why they are influenced by the Dream however. The responsibility for access to the Dream (according to this theory anyway) falls to Ventari. Hence, because Malyck’s Tree has not been in contact with any of the magical races of Tyria, particularly those who have a close relationship with the Trees of Tyria and so does not “Dream”.

5) Malyck is not true “Sylvari”
We all assume that Malyck is Sylvari on account of his physiology but it is possible that Sylvari refer to themselves as such not only because of their physiology but also because they have access to the Dream.

I hate to shoot you down- your posts are all very well thought out, and a delight to read- but all indications are that Malyck did experience a Dream of sorts. The Dream is where sylvari learn such basics as how to walk and speak, and Malyck is indeed capable of such. In the quests themselves, it is nowhere stated that Malyck had no Dream, but rather that Malyck’s Dream, being from a different source, is inaccessible to Pale Tree sylvari. The only thing Malyck seems to lack are the memories that usually come from the Dream in the form of images and sensations, for which there are several possible explanations; Malyck could have been one who simply remembered nothing of his Dream (the Pale Tree has her share of those); Malyck may remember nothing do to his pod severing its connection to his tree early; or it could be that Malyck is a Firstborn of his tree, and his Dream contains no memories for him to experience.

Actually, Aaron, you’re not entirely correct there.

Firstly, Malyck never hakitten esia. That was an assumption the player character – and later Caithe/Trahearne made because Malyck didn’t know what the Dream or Grove was. If you go with Caithe’s plan then we learn that Malyck remembers everything, at least from awakening. If you go with Trahearne’s plan then we learn he was never tied to the Dream of Dreams (as far as any sylvari of the Pale Tree can tell).

Secondly, from the White Stag storyline and A Light in the Darkness, we know the Dream of Dreams isn’t unique to the Pale Tree. We also know the Pale Tree doesn’t control or own the Dream of Dreams. If it isn’t unique to the Pale Tree, then it is entirely possible other trees won’t have ties to it. It is likely the Pale Tree grew to contact with the Dream of Dreams due to the location – like the White Stag may have. Besides, if the Pale Tree can see the current future of Orr in the Dream of Dreams, then she should be capable of seeing the other trees’ experiences with the Dream of Dreams.

Thirdly, we don’t really know how much Malyck learned into the weeks that it was since he was found – much kitten rn from his pod. He could have learned to speak and all that at that moment, being taken in as if he hakitten esia. An adult brain when lacking all memory, even how to dress and speak, can probably learn fast enough if not damaged. He doesn’t use a wide range of vocabulary from my memory either, anyways. We may actually find out, I think in the first story step with him but that is lacking dialogue on the wiki. All the second step is that he awoke 2 weeks prior, injured, and was found and cared for by the kidnapped wardens earlier rescued.

So it is entirely up in the air whether he had a DoD experience and cannot remember, or didn’t. But it leans more towards the “didn’t have a Dream of Dreams experience.”

Small correction: what is said isn’t that he didn’t have a Dream. It’s that “We cannot see your Dream; you cannot see ours.” Indeed, the quest’s name is “A Different Dream.”

His vocabulary isn’t particularly small (I have it screen capped, just need to update the wiki with it) and he uses words like “disguise” that he really had reason to have learned from the Wardens.

Things would be easier if I could just go back and re-play these missions…

Taps Foot Well ArenaNet what are you waiting for?!?

Caithe’s path that shows Malyck not having any amnesia kind of debunks the notion that he had a Dream nonetheless.

I think Aaron’s point isn’t that he had (censor) amnesia. We had talked about this a little while back, and it seems that Malyck had some basic skills from his awakening from the pod. I mean he was found by the wardens a little ways away from the pod, he at least knew how to move (I assume walking, but at the very least dragging himself). Our point was it seems that he had some deep seeded skills that may have been transferred to him through a low level dream which would be something he would not necessarily remember, but left him with the skills to survive, should he need them. We were basing this off of real life experiences. I know how to walk even though I do not remember what was going through my head at like the age of 1 when I figured it out, nor do I have memory of when I learned how to eat. These skills stay with us through use, even though the original thought processes which gave us these skills never stick with us. This isn’t necessarily the effects of amnesia, but of the development of the brain.

Hello there,

I think that you are over-estimating a bit the role of the Dream in the sylvari education.
Sylvari awake full-grown and it should be so without the Dream. The Dream seems to give them motivation, intuition to help them determinate some of their choices. It prepares them to the open world also, by attenuating the awakening shock. Menders are still needed in most of the cases, at least psychologically. One could say that Malyck benefited from a Warden mender.
Know-how wise, the sylvari don’t awake fully-able and master-craftmen, they may have roughly witnessed the basics from inside the Dream so that they may be basically efficient more rapidly, and that’s all.

As for the other Tree, what we discussed about on the French forum was:

• how can Malyck be so akin to the children of the Pale Tree, whereas it is stated that the Pale Tree shaped her children in allegeance of Ronan. She even simulated the gender dimorphism of the humanity, because she accessed Ronan’s or Ronan’s family memories. Except for Ronan, his family and followers, the Pale Tree have had no contact with humanity before the firstborn went outside the Grove.
• why Malyck’s tree wouldn’t have been “seeded” by a hylek or an asura?
• is it a design oversight? (Conversely, how could they know explain for the very human shape of Malyck?)

Now, after having read the Scarlett novel, I’m less sure about the Dream of Dreams.

My 2 cp.

Oh boy… first off, full-grown is a physical description- they awaken the size of a human. It in no way connotates the the basic knowledge that a full grown human would have received- that knowledge is not part of the growing process, it just happens to correspond to it the way humans do things. As for your bullet points- it’s never stated that the Pale Tree shaped the sylvari after Ronan. That is described to be one, asuran, theory. The truth is no one knows for sure why the similarity exists. And even the asura stop short at saying the Pale Tree could access their memories. Additionally, why would the Pale Tree be able to decide what her children were shaped like? No creature, in this world or Tyria, possesses that power.

It’s fully possible that hylek planted Malyck’s tree (less likely to be an asura, though still not outside the realm of possibilities). However, that would have, as stated above, no probable effect on their shapes. It could also be that the tree simply grew on the site of the cave where the seeds were.

Back to Konig, amnesia was only a possible component to one of the three possibilities I vetted. I could expand at all three if you like- I know I tend to explain things in fewer words than it takes.

On your questions…

Amaranda the Lonesome: A distant shore—and darkness. A root, a cave…you. You are the seed. What Ronan knew and never told still lingers in the Dream.

Points to the nature of Malyck’s appearance I think. Ronan did interact with the whole cave more or less, and that may have been enough. He may have even tried to take multiple seeds but lost some which seeded by chance.

And points to Wooden Potatoes for this but her starting lines is very similar to A Path to Revelations in Eye of the North that’s implied to be hinted at Orr and Arah by Jeff.

Edit: @Aaron: actually, Ree confirmed that the Pale Tree consciously shaped the sylvari appearance back during sylvari week. Done so that they can assimilate into the world better, iirc. The asura and scholars theory exists too… As a nod to players only. And the theory is that the sylvari were shaped by the souls of those who died at the tree.

Gah, shot down by no longer accessible comments once again!

It was an interview so it should be. I’m on my phone so cannot do a quick search easily. I think it was the TowerTalk interview on sylvari.

Hm… Yes, I found it. http://www.wartower.de/artikel/artikel.php?id=651 What she specifically says is “they’re built very much like a plant was trying to replicate humans.” In typical ANet fashion, she makes it sound like the sylvari were actively shaped, but leaves that “very much like” backdoor. Still, especially given the following sentence, I cede the point.

EDIT: You can tell it’s an early interview too. Ree goes on at one point about how the Wyld Hunt stems from the Pale Tree, something the Tree herself denies in-game.

No, it outright mentioned the Pale Tree being conscious of the sylvari’s appearance.

Though thinking on it… It may have been actively choosing the individual’s gender.

“Because they are created by the Tree, they have a sense of sex, like male and female, gender, but it based very much on what they chose in the Dream, or what the Tree chose for them.” Very interesting.

It may have been that… But I could have sworn there was a line – possibly not that interview but an interview during sylvari week – that said the Pale Tree made the sylvafi humanoid.

Well, whichever… I can be and have been wrong.

I think the lines, even in that interview, strongly give that impression, so I’m inclined to take your word for it. The question then would become rather that is something that was changed before launch, like several other parts of the interview were; in addition to the origin of the Wyld Hunt, Ree also at that time stated that Valiants work almost exclusively alone, whereas in game we almost always see them in groups, and that there is a lingering and significant distrust and animosity towards asura, which as has been stated in other threads was downplayed nearly into non-existence in the game itself. Personally, I’m inclined to conclude that the humanoid design was in fact a conscious choice by the Pale Tree, absent any refuting evidence… which Malyck very well might be. We just don’t know enough to say for sure.

EDIT: Also, my apologies, Stephen, for derailing your thread.

I think, it seems Malyck is firstborn of his Tree. It will explains not only lack of memories for his Dream, but also the reason why no one knows about another Tree. If there was hundreds of sylvari, they would be found by someone sooner or later. If there are only twelve sylvari from another tree, we might not know about them ten more years.
Besides, his pod was separated from Tree. Maybe, Malyck managed to learn how to speak and walk, what is his name and so on, but memories of the process was damaged when his pod fell from Tree. Or “movie” part of Dream comes after most basic knowledge, so he was separated before he get this Dream.

Although we seem hard-pressed to openly acknowledge that Malyck’s Tree experiences a dreamlike state, a number of contributors to the community have noted that there are indications it does. This state is nowhere near as developed as that of the Pale Tree. (One poster has suggested that the reason could be that Malyck and his siblings are the firstborn fruit of their Tree and so insufficient experience on their part leaves their Tree’s dream in it’s infancy.) Perhaps the primary reason for Malyck’s Tree’s dreamless state is it’s isolation. Consider, for example, how much more learned the Pale Tree is in comparison to it’s (potentially) impoverished neighbour and how interaction with the races of Tyria has contributed to this. It is from the races of Tyria, for example, that the Pale Tree has learnt the Tyrian common tongue (granted, she herself may not have been taught, but her children are well travelled and so in some way the tongue has been appropriated into the Dream). It is also from both these races and her geography (along the coastline (think of Sieve’s Inlet), a busy trade route) that the Pale Tree has learnt of the Elder Dragons and the threat they pose to (at least some of) the races of Tyria. So the isolation of Malyck’s Tree may be an important reason for it’s apparent dreamless state. Of course, mere interaction with other creatures cannot fully explain the dreamless state, particularly when we consider that the Dream grants those that experience it glimpses into the future. Although you could put said glimpses down to the vivid imaginations of participants in and contributors to the Dream, the precision of the prophetic insights it provides suggest that something more is at work – something other than geography and mindless speculation. What exactly is at work we don’t know. Lore enthusiasts may resort to the near-generic explanation that the Mists are somehow involved and this is a very real possiblity, but even in this case we have no tidy extrapolation as to why.

Haaznahnuff.1907:

Now, after having read the Scarlett novel, I’m less sure about the Dream of Dreams.

I really got the feeling that the Dream wasn’t made up from sylvari experience fragments only, but something pre-existing, older than the Pale Tree, maybe a medium used by the Tree to communicate with her children.

About how sylvari learned to speak vehicular Tyrian, I’d guess that the Pale Tree gained this knowledge like he got Ronan’s memories, and that this is part of the Dream’s infused teachings. What’s why I wrongly used “full-grown”; I should have used “fully educated” instead. Educated, infused, but not trained! They really are like amnesic adolescents.

Thanks for the GW1 lore I was lacking. It could explain somehow how Malyck could possibly be so close to a sylvari. But still, it would quite ruin all that has been told about the Pale Tree, in case the mere contact with Ronan in the seeds cavern would have been enough to “make all the job” the adult Pale Tree had to do with her proper child-pods.

A solution to Malyck’s enigma could be that the only specificity of the Pale Tree are the Ventari tablets and Ronan’s dedication (and memories). The rest, the sylvari morphology, the ability to speak right after the awakening, etc., would come from another source. Again, it would be against what has been told, but lore may be twisted a bit, doesn’kitten

The dragon approach is very… stimulating.

Could Malyck’s tree be an offshoot of the Pale Tree? As in, at some point in the distant past, might the Pale Tree have produced some other type of ‘fruit’ besides the sylvari (and the hounds) for the sole purpose of reproduction – ‘fruit’ which managed to take root somewhere and grow?

It would make more sense that Malyck’s tree came from the same cave full of seeds that the Pale Tree’s seed came from.

Narcemus.1348:

It would make more sense that Malyck’s tree came from the same cave full of seeds that the Pale Tree’s seed came from.

But not all of those seeds will grow with the same circumstance as the pale tree, in that the pale tree was planted on top of a human grave, and was imbued with ventari’s tablets.

What if the tree Malyck came from is actually a seed of the Pale Tree, and it has only recently matured. It would explain why Malyck still has human characteristics like the Sylvari of the Pale tree.

Has anyone pointed out that Malyck could have been severed from his tree before blooming? If he were to be severed from the tree early, it wouldn’t be too big of a stretch to think he learned the basics, but never got all the memories associated with it after a certain point. I also like the first born theory, if he was one of the second tree’s first born he wouldn’t have to experience of others to draw on.

Tachenon.5270:

Could Malyck’s tree be an offshoot of the Pale Tree? As in, at some point in the distant past, might the Pale Tree have produced some other type of ‘fruit’ besides the sylvari (and the hounds) for the sole purpose of reproduction – ‘fruit’ which managed to take root somewhere and grow?

Extremely illogical to have occurred. If this was the case, then the Pale Tree would know of Malyck’s tree. But I believe it was stated that she didn’t. It was as new to her as it was new to the PC, Caithe, and Trahearne.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tachenon.5270:

Could Malyck’s tree be an offshoot of the Pale Tree? As in, at some point in the distant past, might the Pale Tree have produced some other type of ‘fruit’ besides the sylvari (and the hounds) for the sole purpose of reproduction – ‘fruit’ which managed to take root somewhere and grow?

Extremely illogical to have occurred. If this was the case, then the Pale Tree would know of Malyck’s tree. But I believe it was stated that she didn’t. It was as new to her as it was new to the PC, Caithe, and Trahearne.

At what point, though, did she gain sentience/conscious awareness? Something might have happened prior to that.

Per an old interview, she was sentient and aware while Ronan was still around, so while a sapling more or less.

Old interview? How old? How old was the interviewee at the time? Perhaps he or she was not sentient/consciously aware…

;-)

Ah, well. We may never know. Someone else likely found the cave and carried away a seed, or as you suggested above, Ronan may have taken more than one seed but lost the others along the way. Perhaps the seeds were placed in that cave by a human/humanoid, who inadvertently left an ‘impression’ on them, and any tree which grew from one of them would produce humanoid offspring.

Side note: if the Pale Tree can consciously affect the form of her offspring, it seems odd that no sylvari resemble centaurs, considering the influence of Ventari.

Anyway. I think I’m going to go with the following theory regarding Malyck and the Riddle of the Trees:

6) Scarlet did it.

A sci-fantasy discussion of memory might be relevant to Malyck.

Humans acquire memories with a variety of associations. If we remember someone like Hercules we might also remember a picture of him, or a story, a film, a book, a poem, or a statue, and also times when we came across him. A computer memory will hold information with no knowledge of how that information came to be within the memory. A computer might have data about a book of classical stories and know that Hercules was a classical hero, but be unable to connect the two.

The film Bladerunner considers the creation of androids that believe they have human memories but in fact have a sophisticated computer facsimile of memory. I don’t think the Malyck situation is as complex. Malyck only needs to have gained pure information whilst he developed, with cognitive learning once he was separated from his tree. This seems a reasonable explanation if Malyck comes from a tree without empathic ability.

Tachenon.5270:

Old interview? How old?

It was during sylvari week with Ree Soesbee.