Guild Wars 2

The majority of this topic will include spoilers to the first Guild Wars. I’m not going to put the whole thing in a spoilers box, but you have been warned. It’s a little long, but full of what I think to be really interesting facts and theories about them, which I would love for people to expand upon.

The human gods are a very interesting subject in the Guild Wars universe. Not truly gods, but powerful spiritual beings, they are extremely unique, and likely not native to Tyria. The current gods that are accepted by the humans are Dwayna, Balthazar, the twins Lyssa, Melandru, Grenth, and Kormir.

The last two are canonically of human descent; Kormir was a human who ascended to godhood in the first game by absorbing the power of Abaddon, and Grenth is the son of Dwayna and a human sculptor, most likely Malchor. Presumably, his godly powers were given to him from Dwayna when he was born. He then defeated Dhuum, the previous god of death, and absorbed most of his power, possibly returning a large chunk of this power to Dwayna as payment for his ascension to godhood.

Of the other gods that once were, we know a few. There is Abaddon and Dhuum, both previously mentioned, and there is Menzies. Menzies is the half-brother of Balthazar, and leader of the Shadow Army, who were foes in the Fissure of Woe.

This description begs a very interesting question. If Menzies is the half-brother of Balthazar, then who were their parents? Were they mortals who ascended to godhood like Kormir? Or were they born to a god of different mortal “contributors,” like Grenth?

Dwayna is somewhat of a fertility goddess, being the goddess of life, as well as the leader of the gods, and somewhat of a mother figure to all of them. It is feasible to suggest that she is the source of all of the gods, or at least the current ones, and that their birth is similar to Grenth’s. I personally like the idea that Balthazar, Menzies, Grenth, and maybe Melandru are all descended from Dwayna, but are unaware. Dhuum also seems a little like an estranged husband, but that’s definitely just postulation.

Both Abaddon and Lyssa possess(ed) powers that are far too dangerous to the gods for it to be conceivable that they would be given by Dwayna. Abaddon, god of secrets, knows many truths about Dwayna and the gods, which may have been what caused him to drift away from the will of the gods and give the humans magic. Perhaps what he knew made him scared of the other gods, and giving the mortals magic was his contingency plan. Lyssa possesses the power to make the gods and other beings forget; While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past. Definitely scary stuff, and I imagine Abaddon alone would be immune.

One last point of interest is the not-entirely-canonical Arachnia. Said to be the god of spiders, her existence was found by mining through the gw.dat file from the original game. Essentially, a large portion of the Realm of Torment sits atop her carcass, and the descriptions made it seem as if she wasn’t entirely dead. Pretty freakin’ creepy.

More importantly, does that imply that the death of Abaddon and the eschewment of Dhuum and Menzies is less of a sundering of the gods and more of a cycle, which makes Dwayna seem even more terrifying. Was she killed and absorbed by another? Does a fragment of Abaddon persist? Are the corners of the Mists littered with dead gods whom the current guard were unsatisfied with? And how the hell was Lord Odran able to tap into the power of the mists, something only the gods have ever been able to do?

These are some of my questions. Please, share some of yours!

There are several issues with your study.

- Grenth is unlikely to have received his demi-godly powers as a gift or blessing from his mother, and much more likely to have inherited those – albeit with a slight twist – during his birth. I mean, it is logical that if someone is born from a god, he or she is going to have a very strong magical aptitude. Grenth has always been an avatar of mortality and the Prince of Ice and Sorrow, and that didn’t change after his ascension. He never gave those domains back to Dwayna (these concepts and Dwayna’s domains do not match at all), but supplemented them with a portion of Dhuum’s death magic.

If anything, Grenth was born with these powers because of how his mother felt at that time. I’m speculating that Malchor was indeed his father, and he killed himself when Dwayna was still pregnant with Grenth. When she learned of her love’s suicide, she became… depressed, and during childbirth, her emotinal state influenced the godly powers that were transfused into her son. It would also explain why Dwayna’s domains are a slight bit the direct opposite of Grenth’s: life – mortality, joy – sorrow, the warmth of life, light, and air – the cold of death, darkness, and chilling air.

- We know for a fact that Balthazar brought the severed head of his father to Tyria. However, it is unknown whether he was the one who decapitated him, or he was carrying it as a reminder of the calamity that made them flee their original place. My speculation is that the father was a traitor and murdered Balthazar’s godly mother. When Balthazar ascended he avenged her and slew his father, but not before the man could sire another son with the mysterious evil that was the reason for their flight to Tyria. The other son was Menzies, of course.

- Very wrong on Dwayna’s involvement in the birth of the other gods. We know for a fact that while Melandru was only the third to arrive on the world (Dwayna the first and Balthazar the second), she is the oldest of them all.

Also, I doubt Dwayna is a de facto leader, but more like a natural one with inborn charisma and leadership skills that make her very capable of reasoning with hot-headed people like Balthazar. The only reason the god of war did not conquer and slaughter the other races with humanity was that she and Melandru held him back – more or less.

- Abaddon’s fall is still one of the greatest mysteries of the GW universe, but with GW2 we learned another important piece of the puzzle. Abaddon was the last to remember what had transpired in the Mists. Personally, I think he wanted a world that could stand up, fight, and defeat the assumed darkness that devoured the human homeworld, and for that end he released magic to every race on Tyria. However, he did not account for the greed and pride of mortal beings, and that his benevolence would nearly result in the destruction of the humanity. Still, he considered the Five’s answer outrageous, and rebelled against them. And by the way, it was that millenium-long imprisonment in torment and loneliness that made Abaddon insane enough to desire the horrors that were committed in his name: the Jade Wind, the Searing, the Cataclysm, the release of the titans, and finally: Nightfall.

It is also worth mentioning that thanks to an eroded mural of his in the Vizier’s tower, we also learned more of his personality. The quote “Act with magic. Act within reason. Act without mercy.” probably comes from him, and is the core principle of his teachings. It also aligns well with his act of the giving out of magic and his reaction to the sealing of the bloodstones.

- While I wholeheartedly agree that Lyssa helped the other gods forget, it should be not forgotten that the line you quoted can be taken two ways, especially if combined with the previous sentence that you left out: “The two who are one, Ilya and Lyss, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity.”

Yes, this could mean she made the others, save for Abaddon, forget the reason for their departure and the presumed war that transpired within the Mists, but it could also be interpreted as Lyssa wiping the minds of humans of the trauma. After all, Lyss and Ilya lived hidden and veiled among the mortals of Wren for a long time, and only left when she was commanded to join the others in the completed Arah. She was very sad about this, and seemingly enjoyed living with mortal people, providing them hope and joy.

- I doubt Lord Odran tapped into the power of the Mists. He created portals by unholy and questionable means to various places in the universe/multiverse in his quest to seek out the gods.

How do we know that Melandru is the oldest of them all? I don’t doubt you, I’ve just never come across that in the lore.

And I believe that you misunderstood me about Grenth. I did mean that he gained the powers from his mother during his birth, but was simply implying that she must have given him an enormous amount of strength to be able to defeat Dhuum, which he may have returned some of once the deed was done.

About Lord Odran, what unholy ways would make this possible? Magic from Abaddon? I suppose that would fall in line with some of Shiro Tagachi’s powers, but it seems to me that he stumbled across magic that was more like the powers that the gods themselves possessed than the magic that was given to mortals.

- From the very scrolls you quoted about Lyssa’s deeds: the Orrian History Scrolls.

“Next came the goddess of nature. Wise Melandru, oldest of them all, made of Orr a green and flowering expanse.”

- There is no need for an “enormous amount of strength” to beat a god. Blessings combined with proficiency in the arcane arts and the numbers are enough to accomplish that. Abaddon was defeated by about two dozens of mortals (Kormir, the hero, their company (the Heroes, so Koss, Jurah, Tahlkora, etc.) and the “henchmen.” To defeat Dhuum he only needed his demi-godly powers and an additional seven of mortal heroes.

- Sacrifice through slaughter: Using a spell of his own devising and the sacrifice of many souls, Lord Odran, a powerful arcanist who specialized in the study of temporal distortions, opened a portal that offered him access to the Mists and eventually into the Rift itself. The spirits who had given their lives to earn access to the hallowed afterlife were outraged. They turned their fury upon the intruder, attacking Lord Odran with all of their legendary, collective might.

It was his own spell, as mentioned in the above paragraph.

DelayTheDecay.2675:

Grenth is the son of Dwayna and a human sculptor, most likely Malchor. Presumably, his godly powers were given to him from Dwayna when he was born.

Mortal sculptor* Nothing says he was half-human. And given the Orrian History Scrolls and the Quiz Terminals during the event there, it seems unlikely that Grenth got powers from Dwayna, but instead had powers because he was Dwayna’s son – as Thalador said. In fact, one particular line implied that he resented his mother a little (“In response [to being Dwayna’s son], Grenth gifted the world with death, that they might understand there were consequences to their actions.”), and he had to “earn” his placement among the gods (by taking Dhuum out).

DelayTheDecay.2675:

Dwayna is somewhat of a fertility goddess, being the goddess of life, as well as the leader of the gods, and somewhat of a mother figure to all of them.

Usually, it’s the god associated with nature that’s considered the fertility god – in this case, Melandru.

DelayTheDecay.2675:

It is feasible to suggest that she is the source of all of the gods, or at least the current ones, and that their birth is similar to Grenth’s.

As said, Melandru is the oldest, even though Dwayna is the leader of them and the first to walk on the world. It seems unlikely that Lyssa, Abaddon, or Balthazar came from Dwayna – or Melandru’s – womb. Abaddon seems to have once been a mortal (most likely human) before ascending as there was a previous god he usurped. Balthazar I wouldn’t doubt rose to power similar to Grenth, perhaps in a scenario like Thalador theorized, or could even be a child of Dwayna who usurped another god, but there’s nothing to really claim he was born a god or demi-god (Menzies, similarly, is never given a divinity status).

DelayTheDecay.2675:

One last point of interest is the not-entirely-canonical Arachnia. Said to be the god of spiders […]

She’s never said to be the god of spiders. She’s a spider goddess – in other words, a spider-like being that is a god. We don’t know what she was a god of, but my theory is that she was Abaddon’s predecessor. Just to note: we don’t even know Arachnia’s true gender.

DelayTheDecay.2675:

And how the hell was Lord Odran able to tap into the power of the mists, something only the gods have ever been able to do?

He never tapped into the power of the Mists. He was simply able to create a portal to the Rift. The Rift is a place where anyone can access all places and times.

DelayTheDecay.2675:

[I] was simply implying that she must have given him an enormous amount of strength to be able to defeat Dhuum, which he may have returned some of once the deed was done.

Doubtful, given what we know of the situation. Grenth was unable to kill Dhuum, but with the help of seven mortals, he was able to defeat Dhuum.

DelayTheDecay.2675:

About Lord Odran, what unholy ways would make this possible?

From the Prophecies manual, Odran was able to make the first set of portals via “Using a spell of his own devising and the sacrifice of many souls”.

Thalador.4218:

If anything, Grenth was born with these powers because of how his mother felt at that time. I’m speculating that Malchor was indeed his father, and he killed himself when Dwayna was still pregnant with Grenth. When she learned of her love’s suicide, she became… depressed, and during childbirth, her emotional state influenced the godly powers that were transfused into her son. It would also explain why Dwayna’s domains are a slight bit the direct opposite of Grenth’s: life – mortality, joy – sorrow, the warmth of life, light, and air – the cold of death, darkness, and chilling air.

I do have to say that the problem with this theory is that we have a quote from Malchor himself stating what he felt when he saw Grenth for the first time, making it highly unlikely that (assuming Malchor is his father) Malchor died before Grenth was born.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Usually, it’s the god associated with nature that’s considered the fertility god – in this case, Melandru.

True, but you can’t expect it to be that way just because it is that way in RL religions. Most fertility goddesses are also tied to rivers or some other life sustaining source, which Melandru isn’t. I’m gonna say personally that, there being a goddess of life (which isn’t always as common as you’d think) that it would make more sense to go to her for issues of fertility than the goddess of nature.

Melandru is the goddess of nature, earth, and growth – and in “nature” that’s both flora and fauna. While Dwayna is called the goddess of life, Melandru is the goddess of things-that-live.

All I am saying is, there’s been no mention, that I have seen in game, that points to Melandru being a fertility goddess. Feel free to prove me wrong, but RL religions do not count in Tyrian matters, this is something I’ve heard you say on multiple occasions.

Narcemus.1348:

I do have to say that the problem with this theory is that we have a quote from Malchor himself stating what he felt when he saw Grenth for the first time, making it highly unlikely that (assuming Malchor is his father) Malchor died before Grenth was born.

It is nowhere beyond the realm of possibility that the statue was created after his death. We know Malchor could take command of his magical chisels and hammers, so in my opinion, it is actually probable his ghost was tasked to sculpt one additional statue for a new god. He just didn’t know this god was his own son. Alternatively, that statue was made for Dhuum in the first place, and it was changed and made Grenth’s after the former’s defeat (both deal havily with the dead, both are hooded and enshrouded in robes, and both wear skull masks – Dhuum’s actually the skull itself, though I think he didn’t always look like that).

“Grenth I feared the most, for in gazing upon him I saw my own end. But Grenth also embodies inevitability, the idea that all things have a time…and that time must inevitably pass.” —Malchor

About the quote: I don’t see why the ghost Malchor couldn’t have said this… “My own end” could refer to recalling of his fall from the cliffs and his untimely demise, or that he, as a ghost, just like all things, has a time that will be gone once, and then he will be no more.

It makes more sense, in my mind, that Malchor created a statue to Grenth while Grenth was still young, which would explain his more youthful appearance compared to GW1’s portrayal. Then the gods went into Arah, Malchor killed himself, and some unknown time later Grenth took down Dhuum at the place his father died. You know what they say, the simplest solution.

Only that if Malchor is the father, he died behind the Cathedral of Zephyrs, while Dhuum was defeated several miles to the east, near Wren. The scrolls speak of how Grenth rose where his father had fallen, and I take that line as that after Grenth had beaten Dhuum, he met Dwayna on the cliffs from where Malchor leapt off, and gained admittance to Arah and his place among the Six there.

But still, I guess it also makes sense, given how Dwayna might have been depressed as well after leaving Malchor and knowing he could never learn that they had a son, which would still explain how Grenth inherited the domains he did. Still, your version is a lot less dramatical… :P

Plus it makes more sense for a mortal to fear their end than a spirit, although there is always an option that there is something after being a spirit. I do have to note here how many spirits we killed in the UW to save other spirits from being killed by them.

Err… nope. You have a lot more to fear as a spirit: demons and scarabs can devour you, consuming your ghostly energies in a tormentingly slow digestion, you can lose your memory (Kaolai) and fade from existence without ever fulfilling your unfinished business (not happened to Kaolai, mind you), you can be destroyed and sent to empower Dhuum, and then you could fall into the mysterious Void that might want to swallow the whole of the universe.

Might, although anything to be said for the Void and it’s intentions and everything are entirely speculative. I do agree though that I may have been wrong about what spirits can fear.

Narcemus.1348:

All I am saying is, there’s been no mention, that I have seen in game, that points to Melandru being a fertility goddess. Feel free to prove me wrong, but RL religions do not count in Tyrian matters, this is something I’ve heard you say on multiple occasions.

You’re not wrong and I’m in agreement with you. But what I’ve said is that ther’s no mention of Dwayna being considered such either.

We just never have seen a pregnant woman having particular blessings for a safe childbirth or a want-to-be-parent being blessed for having a luck in that department.

And then I merely use a wide-spanning source of ArenaNet’s inspiration for many things – mythology – to explain a possibility.

Narcemus.1348:

It makes more sense, in my mind, that Malchor created a statue to Grenth while Grenth was still young, which would explain his more youthful appearance compared to GW1’s portrayal. Then the gods went into Arah, Malchor killed himself, and some unknown time later Grenth took down Dhuum at the place his father died. You know what they say, the simplest solution.

My personal theory is this:

The quote is not about Grenth, but of Dhuum. Those depictions of an old aged man wearing a skull mask is similarly of Dhuum whom, depending on how you take his GW1 model, may be seen as a being wearing a skull mask (as model wise, it’s a pitch-black head (you can see the chin at a proper angle) with a skull model placed over it – and those eyes hardly look natural!). And that this was the Six Gods’ means of erasing Dhuum from (most) Tyrian knowledge – rather than removing it, Grenth simply “became” Dhuum in many depictions.

Would also explain why a more kinder judge of the dead who calls for proper justice – including vengeance – is depicted on a pile of wailing bodies. Sounds more Dhuum-worthy to me.

The young statue, I’d think, was either done by Malchor before Grenth’s rise to godhood (as could the quote, actually), or was done after Malchor’s death.

DelayTheDecay.2675:

T Not truly gods, but powerful spiritual beings, they are extremely unique, and likely not native to Tyria.

On what basis are you making this call? They don’t meet the monotheistic standard of a god, but neither do most gods in pantheistic religions. Since Guild Wars doesn’t really seem to have the concept of monotheism (with the possible exception of Koda), the Six are essentially defining the label of ‘god’ in the setting.

On other things that have been brought up:

Balthazar’s father being the traitor is certainly a valid theory. The alternate could be that it was Balthazar’s mother that was the traitor, however. Still, carrying the head is normally something you do with defeated foes.

On the topic of Melandru, Dwayna, and fertility: It’s an interesting one. Most religions do indeed have the god(dess) of nature being the fertility deity, but most also don’t also have the concept of a deity of life side-by-side with the nature deity. Melandru certainly does have a fertility aspect, since she represents the fertility of the land… but Dwayna apparently represents Life itself. Dwayna is also the goddess of spring, which is the season most associated with fertility and rebirth…

…however, that association is more because of the association of the Season of the Zephyr with wind, and Melandru is likely already associated with the fertility of everything non-human.

What I think may be the case is that Dwayna represents things that are required to sustain life – air, light, warmth, compassion, healing – in the more rarified forms that do not involve the taking of other life. Melandru represents the more practical aspects – fertility, birth, shelter, the requirement for one life form to sacrifice for another to survive through grazing, hunting or harvesting. What I’d probably expect, then, is for Melandru to be the god that is beseeched for conception, while Dwayna’s responsibility comes after conception for an easy pregnancy and healthy baby.

I honestly hope ArenaNet’s writers/game designers read these sort of threads without shaking their heads.

Abaddon had enough power to beat 2 Gods.

Zhaitan claims to have killed Lyssa who is infact 2 Gods(what happened to her power is unknown yet it’s obvious that something absorbed it and that Zhaitan wasen’t the one who absorbed her power since there wasn’t any mass destruction in the general area) whether it’s true or not is unknown.

I think there are 2 Dragon God Lichs with at least 1 in the Ring of Fire Isles since it’s in Risen territory.

There are severe flaws in your argument, Mickey.

Lyssa is one god (“The two who are one”). Lyss and Ilya are patrons of beauty and illusion.

It is said nowhere that Abaddon could actually defeat the gods, only that he could’ve bested two if they met him in single combat, but given that it was the Five True Gods who cast him to Torment, I don’t think he could really stand a chance.

As discussed in two other threads, Lyssa’s corrupted priestesses are lying. There is nothing to support the claim that her power was absorbed, either. And btw, she is still giving her blessings to humans in GW2 (Prayer to Lyssa, susceptibility to mesmerism and illusions in general, beauty, etc.).

I have no comments on your last paragraph.