Guild Wars 2

In no way cannon, but I was considering the notion that perhaps the reason why it is suggested in Winds of Change that there are currently no known dragons operating in Cantha is due to that fact that they are sort of sleeping away under Echovald forest and the Jade Sea and are unable to rise due to the landscape around them having been changed so drastically by the Jade Wind. (Water dragon with no water/ forest dragon with no forest)

Given that we already know the locations of 3 dragons on Tyria and already have the set up for a main antagonist for Elona (Palawa Joko), would it be too far-fetched to assume that the last remaining dragons will belong to the Canthan story line?

I can even see a tie in with Kanaxai and Urgoz being dragon champs, as their back stories are murky at best: A demon of unknown origins with the ability to corrupt those around him and an enraged forest spirit guarded by ancient wardens of unknown origins. All of which, were unaffected by the Jade Wind. That sounds a lot like dragon magic to me!

Well we already know of a “water” dragon, the deep sea dragon/bubbles which I think is located in the unending ocean (if I’m not mistaken?) and a nature related dragon, the jungle dragon/Mordremoth, probably situated in the Maguuma Wastes, so I think adding one for the Echovald Forest and one for the Jade Sea would make it a bit redundant.

Now for a main antagonist in Cantha, there is a Xenophobic Emperor, so…

On the point of Kanaxai/Urgoz I can’t tell much since I don’t know much about them, yeah it seems suspicious but not necessarily related to Elder Dragons.

Well the new Arenanet style is that if they need to bridge something they add dragons. If they need to explain something and give background to past events that were not explained, they add more dragons! Anything can happen but very unlikely for Cantha to have a dragon.

Hka.3942:

Well we already know of a “water” dragon, the deep sea dragon/bubbles which I think is located in the unending ocean (if I’m not mistaken?) and a nature related dragon, the jungle dragon/Mordremoth, probably situated in the Maguuma Wastes, so I think adding one for the Echovald Forest and one for the Jade Sea would make it a bit redundant.

Now for a main antagonist in Cantha, there is a Xenophobic Emperor, so…

On the point of Kanaxai/Urgoz I can’t tell much since I don’t know much about them, yeah it seems suspicious but not necessarily related to Elder Dragons.

Cantha had some xenophobic emperrors but nothing indicates that the current one is one such emperror. Because w know nothing about it. And to just go to a random land to kill off its totally harmless leader is just nonsense.

Hka.3942:

Now for a main antagonist in Cantha, there is a Xenophobic Emperor, so…
.

I doubt assassination will be on the agenda… that would be far to similar to the Ministry of Purity story arc. What sounds better? Xenophobic emperor gets more xenophobic and is killed, or xenophobic emperor receives help from foreigners in defeating a great force and realizes the error of his ways?

Gandarel.5091:

Cantha had some xenophobic emperrors but nothing indicates that the current one is one such emperror. Because w know nothing about it. And to just go to a random land to kill off its totally harmless leader is just nonsense.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha this probably needs be rewritten then, as it totally implies xenophobia….
“Emperor Usoku, raised the Canthan military by spending millions in gold and conquered the still-warring vassal states of the Luxons and Kurzicks, forcing them fully into the empire once more. With this done, he then drove out all non-humans and closed the borders to Cantha.”

Isn’t Cantha known as the Dragon Empire? Perhaps there are dragons located there just not Elder Dragons. Maybe there are lesser dragons there waiting for the word to strike?

To add on the topic of dragons in Cantha we did have Kuunavang there along with Saltspray Dragons, Bonesnap Turtles and Rockhide Dragons, maybe they are related to ED, maybe they’re not but still they are dragons.

There’s pretty good circumstantial evidence that there will be an Elder Dragon in Cantha. If we ever see Cantha.
It is the home of Kuunavang and other saltspray dragons, the only living dragons we see in all of Guild Wars 1 other than Glint, who turned out to be Elder Dragon related.
Then you’ve got the Celestial Dragon Tahmu. “The Dragon, a reminder of atrocity, pain, and anguish.” Description seems ominous compared to her story: She was a kind and generous empress who was transformed into a dragon and then slaughtered invading Naga. Something there feels wrong.

Then there’s this:
Icebrood Totems depicting Jormag all over the Shiverpeaks.
Statue at Panjiang Peninsula, not the only one like it in Cantha, but the most picturesque and easily noticed.
See anything similar?

SlyFoxSays.5342:

In no way cannon, but I was considering the notion that perhaps the reason why it is suggested in Winds of Change that there are currently no known dragons operating in Cantha is due to that fact that they are sort of sleeping away under Echovald forest and the Jade Sea and are unable to rise due to the landscape around them having been changed so drastically by the Jade Wind. (Water dragon with no water/ forest dragon with no forest)

First, I presume by Winds of Change you refer to the GW2 in-game book titled such and not the GW1 Beyond storyline. Either way, neither one hints at a lack of Elder Dragons (rather, just hints that someone – whom could be the most uneducated bloke in Tyria – thinks there’s none there).

Secondly, the water dragon = Deep Sea Dragon; the “forest” (or rather it seems, vegetation) dragon = Mordremoth. The former is heavily implied to be within the Unending Ocean, specifically former krait territory; he certainly has influence there. Mordremoth’s heavily implied to be in the Maguuma Jungle somewhere.

And it should be noted that the Echovald Forest and Jade Sea were thawing out even by Factions’ time – and outright said to be minorly by Eye of the North’s time.

SlyFoxSays.5342:

Given that we already know the locations of 3 dragons on Tyria and already have the set up for a main antagonist for Elona (Palawa Joko), would it be too far-fetched to assume that the last remaining dragons will belong to the Canthan story line?

Kind of, given the lack of real evidence to an Elder Dragon in Cantha.

The best there is would be that it’s implied – but not heavily – for Kuunavang to have been a dragon champion.

SlyFoxSays.5342:

I can even see a tie in with Kanaxai and Urgoz being dragon champs, as their back stories are murky at best: A demon of unknown origins with the ability to corrupt those around him and an enraged forest spirit guarded by ancient wardens of unknown origins. All of which, were unaffected by the Jade Wind. That sounds a lot like dragon magic to me!

Urgoz was a “forest spirit” – in other words, Urgoz alongside other forest spirits never named and Zhu Hanuku (called a “sea spirit”) as well as implied crab spirit (if taken literally) are akin to the Spirits of the Wild – at least in the words used for them.

It is EXTREMELY unlikely for Urgoz to be related to the Elder Dragons. Kanaxai has a better chance but in all honesty… not likely either. He’d have to be tied to some sort of “Elder Nightmare Dragon” which doesn’t really fit the Elder Dragon theme of being tied to nature and elements, since dreams and nightmare – Kanaxai’s schlemiel – is more psychological and personality (e.g., under the realm of the gods). However, demons from the Mists are very much able to twist other beings, iirc, and just magic in general is needed (hello Mad King Thorn!) – though a god (aka Abaddon) can do such on large scale.

Elder Dragons are not needed to do mindkittens and change skin into something else. Besides, the Oni don’t fit the Elder Dragon minion MO either – they’re not elemental at all!

SlyFoxSays.5342:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha this probably needs be rewritten then, as it totally implies xenophobia….
“Emperor Usoku, raised the Canthan military by spending millions in gold and conquered the still-warring vassal states of the Luxons and Kurzicks, forcing them fully into the empire once more. With this done, he then drove out all non-humans and closed the borders to Cantha.”

Usoku was indeed Xenophobic.

But keep in mind that he’s dead by GW2’s time. Or at least should be. The date attributed to him taking control of Cantha is 1127 AE – nearly a two centurues before the game, and I doubt he’d be a teenager since he was Kisu’s successor who was already an old man by Factions’ time. Usoku was probably dead of old age if not battle/assassination before Zhaitan rose.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Isn’t Cantha known as the Dragon Empire? Perhaps there are dragons located there just not Elder Dragons. Maybe there are lesser dragons there waiting for the word to strike?

It’s named after the Celestial Dragon (supposedly at least). Celestials (are said to be) humans who were elevated into the stars by the Six Gods – some personally. They appear to be akin to the gods’ avatars, just more like “Cantha’s avatars.”

Can’t confirm it, but I’ve read that Kuunavang might be related to the deep sea dragon.
And I think he should be! Anet will have to explain the existance of Kuunavang, why Cantha is the dragon empire and how this all ties to the ED.

Though Kuunavang doesn’t resemble the description of bubbles minions: “The currently unnamed Elder Dragon from the depths of the sea has the power to create tentacled creatures from the water. It is said that through its powers, it has been creating servants from every lake and river around its location.”

No tentacles: http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/f/fa/Kuunavang.jpg

There is NOTHING that relates Kuunavang to the deep sea dragon or to water in general – let alone being made from water which would be a requirement for the Elder Water Dragon. That is fully player speculation based on the baseless belief that the DSD was in Cantha – specifically the Jade Sea. However, it is in the Unending Ocean.

If Kuunavang is related to an Elder Dragon, it’d be some sort of Elder Sky/Star Dragon. It is implied that she and Rotscale are like Glint but yet not, similar to the Elder Dragons’ likeness and difference to each other in a pre-release interview with Jeff and Ree, mainly due to Kuunavang’s relation to the celestial skills. But that one is still a stretch (she’s flesh and blood, and not undead either; unlike all other dragon minions which get altered to the dragon’s element – fire, crystal, ice, water and seemingly vegetation and decay).

I, for one, would be a little put-out if Kuunavang, Kanaxai or Urgoz turned out to be related to the ED.

Not everything must be related to them— I’d prefer at least a little variety in the threats we face. This is why I dislike the fact that in the GW2 dungeons, the storylines frequently default back to “dragon energies” (SE, CoF and CoE all do it, and the new Thaumanova fractal is likely to do the same). Its a lack of imagination to use the same plot device for every threat.

Citadel of Flames isn’t related to the Elder Dragons one bit – not openly at least. There are minor hints of the possibility of Flame Legion trying to siphon power from Primordus, but that’s all. And said connection isn’t hinted at in CoF, but Iron Marches.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s named after the Celestial Dragon (supposedly at least). Celestials (are said to be) humans who were elevated into the stars by the Six Gods – some personally. They appear to be akin to the gods’ avatars, just more like “Cantha’s avatars.”

I know that, not implying an Elder Dragon is at Cantha. What I’m implying is perhaps there is more Elder Dragons lore that could be found at Cantha. Since the place seems to have such a high connection with Dragons it is possible that they sought out any and all lore regarding dragons.

As for Kanaxai, I don’t think he will be associated with the Elder Dragons. Perhaps a being who has knowledge about them but as a demon he probably be associated another threat.

Edit: I just remembered Kanaxai isn’t associated with the mists.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Citadel of Flames isn’t related to the Elder Dragons one bit – not openly at least. There are minor hints of the possibility of Flame Legion trying to siphon power from Primordus, but that’s all. And said connection isn’t hinted at in CoF, but Iron Marches.

This connection isnt last minute either. Ever since eye of the north and probly beyond that, the flame legion has been interested in the magics and minions of primordius

This was all conjecture. Simply put, Anet will decide.

SlyFoxSays.5342:

Gandarel.5091:

Cantha had some xenophobic emperrors but nothing indicates that the current one is one such emperror. Because w know nothing about it. And to just go to a random land to kill off its totally harmless leader is just nonsense.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha this probably needs be rewritten then, as it totally implies xenophobia….
“Emperor Usoku, raised the Canthan military by spending millions in gold and conquered the still-warring vassal states of the Luxons and Kurzicks, forcing them fully into the empire once more. With this done, he then drove out all non-humans and closed the borders to Cantha.”

That was 200 years ago. We know nothing else from that time period to the present day, maybe even his son didn’t continue this style. Maybe only until the foundation of a new order with only human in Cantha and a newly united empire became solid.

Then came the dragons, and we know nothing about if Cantha would open its borders to others now. But I guess humans could still go there. And maybe if Cantha needs help, Tyrian humans can convince them to allow aid from other tyrian races. Or maybe they don’t even need to convince them. I would btw prefer that to not involve the pact… just a buntch of adventurers from the races going to Cantha.

Gandarel.5091:

That was 200 years ago. We know nothing else from that time period to the present day, maybe even his son didn’t continue this style. Maybe only until the foundation of a new order with only human in Cantha and a newly united empire became solid.

Then came the dragons, and we know nothing about if Cantha would open its borders to others now. But I guess humans could still go there. And maybe if Cantha needs help, Tyrian humans can convince them to allow aid from other tyrian races. Or maybe they don’t even need to convince them. I would btw prefer that to not involve the pact… just a buntch of adventurers from the races going to Cantha.

You’re right. We know nothing of the current emperor. Does that mean that Cantha ended their xenophobia, no. Is there dragons, we don’t know. Its all conjecture.

The fact that so many of you take this beyond fun, is ridiculous. Take it easy guys.

Maybe we will see some tie-in to the Solid Ocean Fractal in regards to Cantha, current lore, and DSD champions (Jade Maw)

Cantha overcame its xenophoby many times before. The thing is, only human live there atm, i don’t even think they know what xenophobia is atm

Thing is, Cantha’s Xenophobia at times has gone to the extent of looking at peoples that differ from themselves (Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, Luxons, Kurzicks) as evil. Just because all other races MAY have been kicked out (since there is always the chance that some races still try to survive outside of Cantha’s jurisdiction) doesn’t mean that they have necessarily forgotten the meaning of xenophobia.

SlyFoxSays.5342:

You’re right. We know nothing of the current emperor. Does that mean that Cantha ended their xenophobia, no. Is there dragons, we don’t know. Its all conjecture.

The fact that so many of you take this beyond fun, is ridiculous. Take it easy guys.

But they may have ended their xenophobia. I mean, take this into consideration:

1) Canthan emperors have a long history of redacting their predecessor’s actions. Just look here to see some prime examples. Usoku’s successor redacting his decision isn’t unlikely in of itself. And among the history itself, Cantha went into isolation about three known times before Usoku, iirc.
2) There are Canthan sailors who wash ashore the Tarnished Coast, per the Movement of the World. If Cantha kept their borders losed, I doubt that they’d be sending sailors out.

The reason for modern no-contact with Cantha is likely that the DSD is shipwrecking all Canthan sailors (and those who managed to make it through were likely killed by Risen – though that threat’s now gone).

As for taking this beyond fun… who said we are? Honestly, this whole forum is about discussing the lore, and to us that is fun. Even if we disagree with your “fun conjecture” (aka baseless speculation) doesn’t mean we find it a serious job in responding to it. We just don’t make wise- kitten jokes in response. :P

well i wont be surprised if Shiro Tagachi will reappear , they cant kill it for hes allready dead and he will have the power again to return when he decides to team up with the litch …… just a hunch off course , but i always had it since gates of madness … hope we go to cantha soon , would love to kill more suxons in name of the kurzicks !!!!!! for zu heltzer !!!!!!!

Shiro’s spirit was probably destroyed for good in the Temple of the Six Gods. (Although with how ghosts keep reforming in Tyria after “killed” and how we couldn’t vanquish the Mad King’s spirit even though we neatly slew him, it just might be possible souls are immortal.) However, bringing them both back outside fractals or BMP-style missions would be terribly lame now.

@Man In Zero G: I take that story differently. My favorite theory is that the Elder Celestial Dragon is benevolent (or at least a lot more benign than his/her kin) and he/she granted the power to wipe out the disgusting butchers of innocents to the mortal who might have had some connection to him/her. Tahmu could’ve also been a priestess of this Celestial Dragon. (And I believe the invading naga were actually krait – naga were peaceful, on good terms with humans until the Jade Wind – or naga enslaved by krait overlords.)

Shiro’s spirit was locked away in the Realm of Torment, which has since then been taken over by Kormir. I’m sure she’d do her best to keep him there.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Shiro’s spirit was locked away in the Realm of Torment, which has since then been taken over by Kormir. I’m sure she’d do her best to keep him there.

Yet wasn’t it us who gave her the opportunity to reach divinity? Seems she is incapable on her own without an army of players to fight for her.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Yet wasn’t it us who gave her the opportunity to reach divinity? Seems she is incapable on her own without an army of players to fight for her.

That was before she became a goddess, so that’s not accurate. Once she became a deity and took Abaddon’s place, she was even able to create a gateway to take us back home. So she should be perfectly capable of keeping Shiro’s soul locked away.